A tale of 2 naturals, their styles and the women they get

Skills said:

velasco were bringing up that point of how we have a problem cause our presence comes across too obvious as fuck boy type, and teevester/chase are able to go under the radar..... But yeah now i get what you are trying to convey, and yes i have also had that issue of getting nexted after ons with some girls.

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Razorjack said:

And this happens to him ON A REGULAR BASIS. Similar to what you say but the girls take it a step further pre-sex, "damn this guy IS da one!! I need to get his number before I never see him again!!"

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Yes. we follow the "fuck first, connect later" mantra.

The nexting after, happens when she feels like you guys really don't have much of a connection besides just the physical stuff (your looks+sex game (sometimes its enough, but you get a higher conversion rate % if she feels like there is a connection. that's what I work on, in between fuck sessions (the stories, intelligence, romance and all that bullshit)).

No connection, post-sex for the fuckboys = She (every girl. ONS or Relationship minded girl) got what she wanted. - Have ONS with a hot guy.

And you got what you wanted (if you just wanted a ONS) or didn't get what you wanted (get her number to set up another sex meetup to solidify the fuckbuddy frame, if that was your goal).

Velasco said:

Yes. we follow the "fuck first, connect later" mantra.

The nexting after, happens when she feels like you guys really don't have much of a connection besides just the physical stuff (your looks+sex game (sometimes its enough, but you get a higher conversion rate % if she feels like there is a connection. that's what I work on, in between fuck sessions).

No connection, post-sex for the fuckboys = She (every girl. ONS or Relationship minded girl) got what she wanted. - Have ONS with a hot guy.

And you got what you wanted (if you just wanted a ONS) or didn't get what you wanted (get her number to set up another sex meetup to solidify the fuckbuddy frame, if that was your goal).

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Yeah, I did something similar.

"Fuck first and next" if I only wanted ONS

or "Fuck first and meet again for FWB relationship"

If I wanted a more serious relationship, then similar to what you described, I had to put in the effort to demonstrate that I'm more than just the hot sex toy for the night.

It also took some more effort from me to hook girls that weren't looking for sex but a relationship, where as my natural buddy could attract these girls with zero effort. Took me the longest time to figure out how he was doing it but was eye-opening, at least for me.

Razorjack said:

This is a tale of 2 naturals:

1. Razorjack (me 15 years ago): Mark Ruffalo look alike with focus on business less so on work-life balance, muscular/athletic but could stand to lose 10 kg but exuded "I'm not Mr. Right, I'm Mr. Right NOW" e.g. LOVER with zero hint of provider
2. M-natural (good friend of mine): Good looking dude, in excellent shape, plays a lot of sport, has a body like a personal trainer, has the best work-life balance out of any one you'll ever meet. Exuded "I'm a lover as well as provider" in equal amounts

Styles:
Razorjack style was what others would call super smooth, super calibrated, sexual aura, very direct.

M-natural's style is very laid back, quite smooth, empathetic, neutral (not direct and not indirect)

The women we attracted:
Razorjack - The girls were sexually attracted immediately and were interested in wild sex but had very little interest in something more serious much less long term relationship. My wife told me that she knew I wasn't boyfriend/marriage material when we first met.

If I wanted something more serious, I needed to "pursue" them and show them that I was interested in more than just sex. I could have multiple girls in rotation and have them compete for me, but as I said girls rarely pursued me for something more serious than sex / FWB.

M-natural - Girls would throw themselves at him as they saw their "ultimate dream guy" in him, sexually attractive but also long term relationship / boyfriend material. Almost like a trophy boyfriend (similar to how rich guys get trophy wives)

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M-natural sounds like an anti-player. . . while you were a hardcore player back then.

Like Chase says in that article I linked, the main difference between these two styles of game. . . is the amount of trust you build in your seductions. I lean towards the anti-player realm as well. In other words, I build strong connections while triggering romantic and sexual fantasies during my seductions.

My current gf told me that after we exchanged phone numbers, she called her best-friend to say she just met "the one".

I have a strategic way of consistently inducing these types of responses, but before I say anything else. . . I must give credit to @Gunwitch because my version of the anti-player process and relationship game are heavily influenced by his theories and methods.

What we call attraction can be split into the preparation of the female mind, body and emotions for sexual intimacy. The player pours most of his focus into preparing her body for sex. Completely ignoring her mind and emotions isn't an option. . . though you can still get laid without making these two areas your focal points. But this style of seduction is risky because some girls won't trust you, even if you get them extremely horny for you.

Instead you'll see these girls mentally and/or emotionally shut down their body's natural responses to your game.

However, the anti-player makes use of more calibration, as he tries to spread his focus on all 3 equally. I'd say this has become a much more straight-forward goal. . . since Gun came out with SMMA and because the community as a whole has produced many techs that can handle each. But anyway, the better I got at making an impact with all three and maintaining this critical balance. . . the more I noticed girls falling fast and hard for me.

Very interesting topic. I have concluded something similar - going full player will screen out a certain subset of women. Some level of provider fundamentals are required for them.

Provider fundamentals should not be confused with provider frame - just as chode may try to frame himself as a player without having the related fundamentals. So I think this requires some level of related fundamentals to pull off.

Actually we could debug this with a 4-quadrant diagram - do you have player fundamentals, provider fundamentals, both or none? This will dictate what sorts of game you can run. Furthermore, what is your attempted frame? Player, provider, both? Which will further allow us to debug any incongruencies between your actual fundamentals and attempted frame.

The general hatred for the provider frame is misguided, @COCPORN has also pointed this out. It is just a kneejerk because most guys have insufficient player fundamentals (which does not even logically imply that they have any provider fundamentals - just consider a jobless chode). A related observation: @Teevster pointed out that community guys are insanely indoctrinated with "never being needy", while as for an advanced guy the threshold for being framed generally needy is INSANELY HIGH.

In fact one could easily argue that naturals throwing parties or guys working in nightlife are sort of "providers" of various stuff and services people want.

As long as you have both kinds of fundamentals, I believe superficial stuff like clothing, environment, topics you talk about, escalation speed, level and speed of sexualization etc will make a big difference on how you are categorized, however I have not explored this very much.

Bacchus said:

M-natural sounds like an anti-player. . . while you were a hardcore player back then.

Like Chase says in that article I linked, the main difference between these two styles of game. . . is the amount of trust you build in your seductions. I lean towards the anti-player realm as well. In other words, I build strong connections while triggering romantic and sexual fantasies during my seductions.

My current gf told me that after we exchanged phone numbers, she called her best-friend to say she just met "the one".

I have a strategic way of consistently inducing these types of responses, but before I say anything else. . . I must give credit to @Gunwitch because my version of the anti-player process and relationship game are heavily influenced by his theories and methods.

What we call attraction can be split into the preparation of the female mind, body and emotions for sexual intimacy. The player pours most of his focus into preparing her body for sex. Completely ignoring her mind and emotions isn't an option. . . though you can still get laid without making these two areas your focal points. But this style of seduction is risky because some girls won't trust you, even if you get them extremely horny for you.

Instead you'll see these girls mentally and/or emotionally shut down their body's natural responses to your game.

However, the anti-player makes use of more calibration, as he tries to spread his focus on all 3 equally. I'd say this has become a much more straight-forward goal. . . since Gun came out with SMMA and because the community as a whole has produced many techs that can handle each. But anyway, the better I got at making an impact with all three and maintaining this critical balance. . . the more I noticed girls falling fast and hard for me.

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@Bacchus (Still love the Jimi avatar! )

Thanks for chiming in and for the article!

If something has gotten rusty, my pick up skills hasn't been one of them, it's being able to discuss advanced seduction topics with advanced guys who are so honed in on the theory and terminology.

I realize that when I made the OP in this thread that I took so much for granted.

I agree wholeheartedly with the anti-player. In fact I remember writing a post on mASF about perceived image. Basically how others perceive you from a distance before you've met them. Then how you take advantage (no tactics needed) of the positive traits girls perceive about you (e.g. lover) but then you develop tactics / tech to overcome the negatives (anti-player tactics as in the article).

What I tried to express in the OP (rather clumsily, I admit) is how girls perceived me & M-natural before we've approached. So M-natural wasn't running anti-player game, girls just saw him as the perfect combination of lover & provider / player & anti-player / or whatever we want to name it.

So even if M-natural could approach, he rarely had to as girls approached him. Where as girls would approach me if they were interested in sex only, M-natural would have girls approach him for sex, relationship or both. So he never had to put in any anti-player effort, where as I did.

I also realize that I do and see things very differently from most of you. For example, I almost never focus on tactics or tech, instead I make a bit of a tweak in the mindset and my behavior automatically follows. It's kind of similar to how in the movie The Matrix, where characters could instantaneously upload new skills into their brain, although for me it took days rather than seconds. LOL!

So I guess what I was trying to get at is how can we change how others perceive us to shortcut the seduction process? Or in other words, what could be done to be more like M-natural where more girls see you as the perfect guy that they can't let get away? How can you develop a PASSIVE game so more girls CHASE you?

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear opinions from you guys.

(Apologies if this still isn't clear or if you guys don't see any need for passive game)

Carousel said:

Very interesting topic. I have concluded something similar - going full player will screen out a certain subset of women. Some level of provider fundamentals are required for them.

Provider fundamentals should not be confused with provider frame - just as chode may try to frame himself as a player without having the related fundamentals. So I think this requires some level of related fundamentals to pull off.

Actually we could debug this with a 4-quadrant diagram - do you have player fundamentals, provider fundamentals, both or none? This will dictate what sorts of game you can run. Furthermore, what is your attempted frame? Player, provider, both? Which will further allow us to debug any incongruencies between your actual fundamentals and attempted frame.

The general hatred for the provider frame is misguided, @COCPORN has also pointed this out. It is just a kneejerk because most guys have insufficient player fundamentals (which does not even logically imply that they have any provider fundamentals - just consider a jobless chode). A related observation: @Teevster pointed out that community guys are insanely indoctrinated with "never being needy", while as for an advanced guy the threshold for being framed generally needy is INSANELY HIGH.

In fact one could easily argue that naturals throwing parties or guys working in nightlife are sort of "providers" of various stuff and services people want.

As long as you have both kinds of fundamentals, I believe superficial stuff like clothing, environment, topics you talk about, escalation speed, level and speed of sexualization etc will make a big difference on how you are categorized, however I have not explored this very much.

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@Carousel

Thanks for posting this! Exactly in line with what I was trying to say.

I can attest to the hatred of provider frame, it's been around since the beginning of the seduction community. Definitely knee-jerk reaction, I would say in addition to guys having insufficient player fundamentals, that frustrated guys think that they need to make EXTREME changes.

But yeah, the thing that interests me is what quadrant are you/me in? How can a person "shift" quadrants? Does the shift happen with tactics or can it be done passively (how girls perceive you pre-approach)?

Razorjack said:

I can attest to the hatred of provider frame, it's been around since the beginning of the seduction community. Definitely knee-jerk reaction, I would say in addition to guys having insufficient player fundamentals, that frustrated guys think that they need to make EXTREME changes.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is rampant. Not only does PU attract a lot of people who are prone to going to extremities, but the overcorrections initially make sense as a chode needs to do brutal changes. Then after some time it has to be dialed back a bit. I commented something similar on a thread about ego - this "do not measure yourself by external standards", "be outcome independent" and "have no ego" make sense from an overcorrection perspective but will actually bite you in the ass after some time (essentially as denial of reality and lack of drive).

I think there has been a similar overcorrection here - society tells men to develop provider traits, hence initially this should be dialed down, however the results you describe will happen in the long run if player traits are the sole focus.

Razorjack said:

But yeah, the thing that interests me is what quadrant are you/me in? How can a person "shift" quadrants? Does the shift happen with tactics or can it be done passively (how girls perceive you pre-approach)?

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I think both of us are able to run both player game and provider game as we both have the fundamentals for each of them, however I have not focused much on the latter. But if I were to, I would shift the factors in the last sentence in my previous post.

A broke surfer dude with big muscles and no business skills or education would probably NOT that easily be able to switch quadrants due to lack of relevant fundamentals.

From what you wrote in the OP it sounded like at that point, you had both the player and provider fundamentals, but you chose to frame yourself exclusively as a player.

As for being approached in the daytime as M-natural, I am unsure whether I would be able to replicate this from the info in the OP.

Razorjack said:

what could be done to be more like M-natural where more girls see you as the perfect guy that they can't let get away?

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Wasn't an behavioural thing. He just looked like the perfect guy

Razorjack said:

Good looking dude, in excellent shape

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Was he also over 6 ft and had good fashion sense?

But I'm just wondering, besides language barrier, I'm just confused as to why his style (provider+player game) wasnt as effective on non-swedish girls. Supposedly he was the "ultimate dream guy"

Razorjack said:

Girls would throw themselves at him as they saw their "ultimate dream guy" in him

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Razorjack said:

Outside of Sweden, I would blow him out of the water as he was out of his comfort zone, had language barriers and a style specifically for Swedish women.

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Velasco said:

Wasn't an behavioural thing. He just looked like the perfect guy

Was he also over 6 ft and had good fashion sense?

But I'm just wondering, besides language barrier, I'm just confused as to why his style (provider+player game) wasnt as effective on non-swedish girls. Supposedly he was the "ultimate dream guy"

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His perceived status and attainability made him look like the perfect guy for Swedish girls (possibly even Scandinavian girls)

He's actually 3 cm shorter than me. I'm about 180 cm (5'11")

This is my theory:

One thing you will notice about Sweden and Scandinavia in general is the lack of importance placed on status and wealth, sometimes it is also perceived negatively if you show off too much status and wealth. I believe it has to do with the average person in socialist Scandinavia being quite well off so it's just not as important for women.

This part is completely the opposite to other parts of the world, like the US.

M-natural has very good looks with dark blonde / light brown hair, appearance is middle class with good (edgy and unique) fashion sense. M-natural also looks very athletic, generally happy dude that likes to have fun but humble and discreet. Most importantly he seems attainable for good looking women, but possibly not for average looking. M-natural though he does have ONS and has lots of girls interested in him, prefers relationships with the right girls. And also important, girls perceive M-natural to have occasional ONS, has lots of girls interested in him but would prefer a relationship with the right girl.

This type of guy (about 10% of the male population) seems to clean up in Sweden as this is what Swedish girls perceive as the "ultimate dream guy". And because there aren't so many of them, Swedish girls react immediately to bag these guys when they're "out on the market" (in between girlfriends / relationships)
Bring in some good looking wealthy celebrity and Swedish girls easily get intimidated, auto-rejecting themselves.

Imagine Mark Ruffalo playing Mr. Big (high status, wealthy dude from Sex and The City) and you get me. I definitely don't look middle class and my self-confidence can come off as intimidating to a lot Scandinavian women. I remember one time I was out with Teevster in Copenhagen, one of the hotter girls (25 y.o. maybe?) I met reacted with "Look at you, with your money throwing it all around!". I had to raise her value a bit as it was very clear she perceived my status (value) to be way above hers.

So like I said, he can wipe the floor with me in Sweden (probably in Denmark and Norway as well) as I have to put in more effort. But if we were in Eastern Europe, Middle East, Asia or even the US, it would be the opposite.

Razorjack said:

One thing you will notice about Sweden and Scandinavia in general is the lack of importance placed on status and wealth, sometimes it is also perceived negatively if you show off too much status and wealth. I believe it has to do with the average person in socialist Scandinavia being quite well off so it's just not as important for women.

This part is completely the opposite to other parts of the world, like the US.

Click to expand...

Status is definitely important in Scandinavia, although for the general population of eligible women it will not translate to bragging about finances or well-paid jobs. This will probably come off as tryhard.

Razorjack said:

M-natural has very good looks with dark blonde / light brown hair, appearance is middle class with good (edgy and unique) fashion sense. M-natural also looks very athletic, generally happy dude that likes to have fun but humble and discreet. Most importantly he seems attainable for good looking women, but possibly not for average looking. M-natural though he does have ONS and has lots of girls interested in him, prefers relationships with the right girls. And also important, girls perceive M-natural to have occasional ONS, has lots of girls interested in him but would prefer a relationship with the right girl.

This type of guy (about 10% of the male population) seems to clean up in Sweden as this is what Swedish girls perceive as the "ultimate dream guy". And because there aren't so many of them, Swedish girls react immediately to bag these guys when they're "out on the market" (in between girlfriends / relationships)

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This is probably true.

Razorjack said:

Imagine Mark Ruffalo playing Mr. Big (high status, wealthy dude from Sex and The City) and you get me. I definitely don't look middle class and my self-confidence can come off as intimidating to a lot Scandinavian women. I remember one time I was out with Teevster in Copenhagen, one of the hotter girls (25 y.o. maybe?) I met reacted with "Look at you, with your money throwing it all around!". I had to raise her value a bit as it was very clear she perceived my status (value) to be way above hers.

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Well this may partly be an age effect - you have much more money to waste than students and 20-somethings.
Also all my PUA friends in Scandinavia are a bunch of uber-confident douches, so I kinda doubt that confidence scares them off.

Razorjack said:

His perceived status and attainability made him look like the perfect guy for Swedish girls (possibly even Scandinavian girls)

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Razorjack said:

Bring in some good looking wealthy celebrity and Swedish girls easily get intimidated, auto-rejecting themselves.

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Razorjack said:

Razorjack - The girls were sexually attracted immediately and were interested in wild sex but had very little interest in something more serious much less long term relationship

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So if I understand correctly: you're saying these Swedish girls wanted to fuck you immediately, but didnt want to date you because they perceived you as TOO high status for them? While in other countries, where they actually place value in wealth and status, you were far more more successful than him over there.

So my takeaway from this, if you want to be successful with girls in a country where high status isnt viewed favorably:

Come off as middle class (for attainability) in vibe and fashion sense, and come off as somebody who is looking for something more than just sex (because the vibe you give off is "ONS dont do it for me anymore. I'm not opposed to them, but I much prefer a girl that has relationship potential). And because these girls themselves are looking for a guy with relationship potential, it's a match made in heaven

Razorjack said:

@Bacchus (Still love the Jimi avatar! )

Thanks for chiming in and for the article!

If something has gotten rusty, my pick up skills hasn't been one of them, it's being able to discuss advanced seduction topics with advanced guys who are so honed in on the theory and terminology.

I realize that when I made the OP in this thread that I took so much for granted.

I agree wholeheartedly with the anti-player. In fact I remember writing a post on mASF about perceived image. Basically how others perceive you from a distance before you've met them. Then how you take advantage (no tactics needed) of the positive traits girls perceive about you (e.g. lover) but then you develop tactics / tech to overcome the negatives (anti-player tactics as in the article).

What I tried to express in the OP (rather clumsily, I admit) is how girls perceived me & M-natural before we've approached. So M-natural wasn't running anti-player game, girls just saw him as the perfect combination of lover & provider / player & anti-player / or whatever we want to name it.

So even if M-natural could approach, he rarely had to as girls approached him. Where as girls would approach me if they were interested in sex only, M-natural would have girls approach him for sex, relationship or both. So he never had to put in any anti-player effort, where as I did.

I also realize that I do and see things very differently from most of you. For example, I almost never focus on tactics or tech, instead I make a bit of a tweak in the mindset and my behavior automatically follows. It's kind of similar to how in the movie The Matrix, where characters could instantaneously upload new skills into their brain, although for me it took days rather than seconds. LOL!

So I guess what I was trying to get at is how can we change how others perceive us to shortcut the seduction process? Or in other words, what could be done to be more like M-natural where more girls see you as the perfect guy that they can't let get away? How can you develop a PASSIVE game so more girls CHASE you?

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear opinions from you guys.

(Apologies if this still isn't clear or if you guys don't see any need for passive game)

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Yes exactly it has nothing to do with player and anti player, the whole perception is done just like you express BEFORE, none verbally... That was my point of it looks like dutch, smell like dutch, and act like a dutch a clumsy way i was trying to say the above in a lazy way....

Razorjack said:

@Carousel

Thanks for posting this! Exactly in line with what I was trying to say.

I can attest to the hatred of provider frame, it's been around since the beginning of the seduction community. Definitely knee-jerk reaction, I would say in addition to guys having insufficient player fundamentals, that frustrated guys think that they need to make EXTREME changes.

But yeah, the thing that interests me is what quadrant are you/me in? How can a person "shift" quadrants? Does the shift happen with tactics or can it be done passively (how girls perceive you pre-approach)?

Click to expand...

Razorjack this whole argument is taking out of context a bit (i am with you in all of this, totally agree)

The lover/provider alpha/beta etc... and the likes are just lazy ways to save time in forums when writing and when you are speaking with "green" type guys, as you notice carousel is explaining that the threshold to look needy for guys like us is insane....

Again, we had a situation in a poster requesting advise (forgot the name of the dude, my bad) in which a dude got a girl exited in valentines that agree to go on a date with him and was much into him at that point, after for whatever reason (it could even be another dude for all we know) she lost momentum..... Then the advise when totally in the direction on bringing the kids on a second date as strategy which i thought it was a horrible strategy and have very super low probability of even working or the girl getting to the point of introducing a kid.... that was my problem.....

Carousel said:

Status is definitely important in Scandinavia, although for the general population of eligible women it will not translate to bragging about finances or well-paid jobs. This will probably come off as tryhard.

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Not quite what I meant, bragging about finances and well-paid jobs will come off as try-hard in any country.

Just looking like your wealthy and high status, will get Scandinavian women auto-rejecting you. I'm not talking just suit and tie, I could be dressed like I own a super yacht on the French Riviera (white short sleeve linen shirt and pants/shorts with a Breitling watch for example)

Well this may partly be an age effect - you have much more money to waste than students and 20-somethings.
Also all my PUA friends in Scandinavia are a bunch of uber-confident douches, so I kinda doubt that confidence scares them off.

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Damn that age effect...…..I've always been older! LOL!
Although I was a bit of natural with some game in my early 20s, my PU journey (mASF) started when I was 32, which was already way older than most of the guys on this board.

Not trying to brag, just trying to set some context. I'm not just talking about having more money from working longer, higher salary etc than younger guys. In my case, I'm talking about having a large company's millions to burn at my disposal.

The only people who are not intimidated by me are cool, high status people. By the way, it's never my intention to be intimidating just ended up this way.

Skills said:

Razorjack this whole argument is taking out of context a bit (i am with you in all of this, totally agree)

The lover/provider alpha/beta etc... and the likes are just lazy ways to save time in forums when writing and when you are speaking with "green" type guys, as you notice carousel is explaining that the threshold to look needy for guys like us is insane....

Again, we had a situation in a poster requesting advise (forgot the name of the dude, my bad) in which a dude got a girl exited in valentines that agree to go on a date with him and was much into him at that point, after for whatever reason (it could even be another dude for all we know) she lost momentum..... Then the advise when totally in the direction on bringing the kids on a second date as strategy which i thought it was a horrible strategy and have very super low probability of even working or the girl getting to the point of introducing a kid.... that was my problem.....

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@Skills

Respect bro!

I totally get what you're saying and I agree completely with your reasoning for not bringing the kid along.

There were only 2 reasons why I suggested bringing in the kid and my advice was specifically for his situation not in general for newbies who want to become better seducers:

1. Reason #1: He specifically mentioned wanting a relationship with her and she mentioning her kid CONSTANTLY to him
2. Reason #2: He's way too green to save that sinking ship using seduction skills. In my opinion, it was either him losing her completely or having the kid along to buy him some time.

Razorjack said:

Just looking like your wealthy and high status, will get Scandinavian women auto-rejecting you. I'm not talking just suit and tie, I could be dressed like I own a super yacht on the French Riviera (white short sleeve linen shirt and pants/shorts with a Breitling watch for example)

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Lol, this is something I surely would love to test

Velasco said:

So if I understand correctly: you're saying these Swedish girls wanted to fuck you immediately, but didnt want to date you because they perceived you as TOO high status for them?

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If you've ever read my mASF posts you'll see me mentioning a lot about how I qualified women, mostly because I had to raise their values especially after developing the Asshole Rockstar stuff.

So Swedish girls were attracted, I had to raise their value/status (via qualifying) to match mine so they would fuck me immediately. But they didn't try for anything more serious with me because I came off as a rich playboy / player.

While in other countries, where they actually place value in wealth and status, you were far more more successful than him over there.

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Yes, exactly

So my takeaway from this, if you want to be successful with girls in a country where high status isnt viewed favorably:

Come off as middle class (for attainability) in vibe and fashion sense, and come off as somebody who is looking for something more than just sex (because the vibe you give off is "ONS dont do it for me anymore. I'm not opposed to them, but I much prefer a girl that has relationship potential). And because these girls themselves are looking for a guy with relationship potential, it's a match made in heaven

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LOL! That's one way to put it!

I would only add:

"Come off as middle class (for attainability) in vibe and fashion sense, and come off as somebody who is looking for something more than just sex (because the vibe you give off is "ONS dont do it for me anymore. I can get ONS at anytime and I'm not opposed to them, but I much prefer a girl that has relationship potential)."

Carousel said:

Yes, this is rampant. Not only does PU attract a lot of people who are prone to going to extremities, but the overcorrections initially make sense as a chode needs to do brutal changes. Then after some time it has to be dialed back a bit. I commented something similar on a thread about ego - this "do not measure yourself by external standards", "be outcome independent" and "have no ego" make sense from an overcorrection perspective but will actually bite you in the ass after some time (essentially as denial of reality and lack of drive).

Click to expand...

@Carousel

Sorry I missed this post of yours.

Yes, dialing it back / overcorrecting / overcompensating.... many words for it but it takes a bit of experimenting and time before it's perfectly dialed in

I think there has been a similar overcorrection here - society tells men to develop provider traits, hence initially this should be dialed down, however the results you describe will happen in the long run if player traits are the sole focus.

Click to expand...

Yes, especially when newbies continue drinking the koolaid instead observing and understanding what is really happening with their interactions

I think both of us are able to run both player game and provider game as we both have the fundamentals for each of them, however I have not focused much on the latter. But if I were to, I would shift the factors in the last sentence in my previous post.

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Yes, now I could. But in my case back then, having money didn't mean I had "provider game", I just came off as a wealthy playboy instead of a broke player. LOL!

Take a bit more than just money to be relationship material.

A broke surfer dude with big muscles and no business skills or education would probably NOT that easily be able to switch quadrants due to lack of relevant fundamentals.

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But I don't think the broke surfer needs money to fill the "provider" quadrant. I know of a cool "hippy" 55 year who had a beautiful 24 year old seduce him for a relationship. The guy doesn't have a dime to his name, but is an awesome guy when you get to know him.

From what you wrote in the OP it sounded like at that point, you had both the player and provider fundamentals, but you chose to frame yourself exclusively as a player.

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Yeah, I drank a bit too much of the mASF ant-provider KoolAid! LOL!

As for being approached in the daytime as M-natural, I am unsure whether I would be able to replicate this from the info in the OP.

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My theory is that M-natural is in his market, Sweden and possibly all of Scandinavia.

When I've traveled through Eastern Europe, Morocco, Japan, China etc I've been approached by women in the daytime for my number and dates at airports, on trains, at restaurants etc These are my markets.

Probably also worthwhile to analyse this topic in terms of what Gunwitch is referring to as "social frame". Basically what types of guys does her social environment "allow" her to 1) hook up with and 2) have LTRs with - these may differ. I don't think this has been mentioned here yet.

Carousel said:

Probably also worthwhile to analyse this topic in terms of what Gunwitch is referring to as "social frame". Basically what types of guys does her social environment "allow" her to 1) hook up with and 2) have LTRs with - these may differ. I don't think this has been mentioned here yet.

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This is what I was getting at in my last post. . . I just thought we were discussing the entire seduction process.

Razorjack said:

So I guess what I was trying to get at is how can we change how others perceive us to shortcut the seduction process? Or in other words, what could be done to be more like M-natural where more girls see you as the perfect guy that they can't let get away? How can you develop a PASSIVE game so more girls CHASE you?

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear opinions from you guys.

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I tweak my appearance depending on the environment to trigger various forms of investment before I approach.

When day gaming I'll go with elegantly disheveled outfits. The tight-fitting jeans, suede boots, and color contrasts draw attention. Hinting at a more refined fashion sense than most North Americans. But instead of putting together completely stylish look. . . I keep it nonchalant.

Throw in a very small awareness radius and I look like a guy. . . who fails to notice all the women checking him out.

Peripheral vision is a big part of my pre-approach game. So I can see if the girl beside me is worth opening, or notice new ones positioning themselves next to me. But if I'm looking around. . . I turn my head slowly. Keeping my eyes above people's heads, to give the impression that I'm currently immersed in my own thoughts. The goal is to set up approaches that will appear organic. . . with girls who are already aware of my presence.

There are some slight differences when I game at college bars. I dress a little better than a day game session at the mall. . . going with a more artistic presentation but still casual-looking. Typically I'll stand beside a girl I want to approach. Slowly turn my head with an intrigued expression. . . she'll often be looking at me, before I've made eye contact. If things are more hectic and I have energy. . . I might take a social proof route.

But if my energy is low and I'm rolling solo. . . I'll change behavior to encourage girls to approach me.

I'll stand at a very high-traffic spot and appear immersed in my thoughts. This is different from when I do it during the day. . . instead I allow myself to look vulnerable. . . giving off a slightly tormented vibe. Like I've been contemplating a personal tragedy. Something similar to what Marlon Brando is doing here (LINK). This is when I find myself getting approached very consistently. . . it's really sort of a last resort.

If I'm doing night game in other venues. . . I dress like an elegant rockstar. My behavior and vibe becomes kind of glamorous. So the girls who approach me typically work in the fashion industry. Otherwise I'll make good use of peripheral vision and slow head turns while opening.