A question related to the Chase's and Alek's latest articles about indirect game and validation tank

DaVinciMatrixStyle

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"The basic concept though was that any given woman has a certain sized 'validation tank' she is trying to fill up with high quality validation.
Once she gets enough, the tank is full, and she can go home happy.
Sex is one way for her to get validation. But it's not the only way. In fact, most of the time women go out, they're fully capable of filling up their validation tanks without it.
In his articles on direct game, Alek discussed women's need for attention trumping their need for sex, and the tendency of overly direct game giving them all the attention they need.
Too-direct game fills up their validation tanks, we might say.
By the same coin, overly indirect game can leave their validation tanks so dry they go looking for a better validation source."

So I have a few clarifying questions.

A. The goal is to 'match her interest levels' to have sex with her. But even as you match her interest level (she shows you interest, and you show her interest to match), wouldn't that also fill up her validation tank to the point where she wouldn't want to have sex with you? (Aside from attention whores)

B. Let's say you do have sex with her and start meeting her more, how do you NOT give her enough validation so that she wants to chase you more?
 

Teevster

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By the same coin, overly indirect game can leave their validation tanks so dry they go looking for a better validation source."

Good analysis. This is a problem with indirect game, namely that it causes auto-rejection, or... it can make a girl feel "not appreciated enough" - i.e. that she feel that she will receive NEGATIVE social validation from you.

Think of it like when you approach a hot girl, who is being overly cold to you. Does it make you feel any good? No!

Same goes for women. So what happen is that she will auto-reject, in order to
1. Dodge situations where she may end up feeling neglected (for women, being neglected is that same as being "rejected").
2. Rationalize the "rejection" (negletion) as "I rejected him first, i.e he never rejected me".

Hence auto-rejection.

Women are attention/validation junkies. They crave it badly. They seek it.

But at the same time they not only seek sources of quality validation, but they also dodge any sources of negative validation.

I.e. they maximize the source of positive validation, while minimizing the source of negative validation.

I will read chase's article now (haven't read it ye).

Best,
Alek
 

Teevster

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A. The goal is to 'match her interest levels' to have sex with her. But even as you match her interest level (she shows you interest, and you show her interest to match), wouldn't that also fill up her validation tank to the point where she wouldn't want to have sex with you? (Aside from attention whores)

My next post will be about this exact subject since I will be covering indirect game.

One thing is to generate compliance, another is to escalate the process - i.e. tons of compliance without escalating the vibe leads you nowhere. It is like those times you have a girl over you, yet do not manage to shag her - her compliance was worth nothing other than an ego stroke. Those of us who has been around for a while knows that there is a day and night difference between shagging a girl, and having a girl showing "major interest in you".

So compliance is not worth shit and won't get you anywhere if you do not escalate the vibe.

However, you will need compliance in order to smoothly escalate the vibe!

The idea is to match your interest to her - because you want to condition her into showing interest in you (i.e. reward her good behaviour). So if she shows interest you show equal interest in her (reward). If she keeps doing so, all good, then you escalate the vibe!

However, if she starts attention whoring or showing lacks of interest, punish her by stop showing interest in her. This means for instance that you cannot escalate the process further until you have re-established compliance.

This is done by removing the source of validation. Remember, she seeks validation so badly, that you cutting out her source of validation will make her chase. The mere fact of stopping the process of escalating the vibe is a form of "punishment" in the sense that you are cutting out her source of validation.

But not only that, it allows you to re-establish the frame - i.e. of her chasing you (or at least avoid the frame of you chasing her, which always leads to an uphill battle). Additionally, you are the dominant one of the interaction since you control when and how she gets validated. The latter is key.

Taking a step back whenever she is non-compliant, allows you also to re-establish compliance through other means (i.e. persist) without coming off as needy! This is also key.

Now, whenever she act compliant again, you use this window to escalate the vibe (i.e. isolate, escalate, extract etc).

The key idea here is to condition her into being compliant, by giving her validation (showing interest as a reward) whenever she behaves well (i.e. acts compliant towards you - shows you interest and does not resist your moves) and stop giving her validation ( i.e. stop showing interest, or if you want to go even harder, showing DISINTEREST as a punishment) whenever she is being uncompliant (acts aloof, disinterested, plays jealousy games, tests you and resists your moves, etc).

All of this will motivate her to act compliant towards you, and demotivate her to act uncompliant towards you. I think it is obvious to most of us that this is a VERY powerful tool.

Lastly, you matching her compliance level at all times is smooth and calibrated, which is always a good thing.

All of the things I have written so far, constitutes what I consider the template for successful seductions.


B. Let's say you do have sex with her and start meeting her more, how do you NOT give her enough validation so that she wants to chase you more?

My posts at least, are about cold approach situations (i.e. about interactions you have with girls you do not have a prior sexual relationship with). Your questions falls into the realm of relationship management.

That all said a lot of the concepts covered above (punish and reward, and matching her level of interest) applies to relationships as well, although with some minor differences.

I won't get into that here, since it is a different subject.

Best,
Alek
 

Velasco

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The key idea here is to condition her into being compliant, by giving her validation (showing interest as a reward) whenever she behaves well (i.e. acts compliant towards you - shows you interest and does not resist your moves) and stop giving her validation ( i.e. stop showing interest, or if you want to go even harder, showing DISINTEREST as a punishment) whenever she is being uncompliant (acts aloof, disinterested, plays jealousy games, tests you and resists your moves, etc).
Wanted to talk about this part in your response to DaVinci's question.

You will recall in our private chat, I talked about how that in my experience the mode she's in for that night (Attention-Seeking (A-S) or Sex-Seeking (S-S)) will be revealed AFTER I reward her for showing interest.

Like here you say to give her validation (show interest as a reward) whenever she acts compliant towards you (shows you interest/invests).

What I find is that if I were to give her (an A-S set) validation after she gives me an Approach Invitation/invests in my question by escalating on her (walking up to her and putting my hands on her waist, proximity, may work on an S-S, but would kill me on an A-S set) or rewarding her investment ("wow that's really cool!!!"), she'd be validated and move on.

-> "If she is attention-seeking, you are attractive to her, and you GIVE HER attention/validation/reward, chances are pretty high that she will move on".

So I want to quote this comment from YaReally back in 2016, talking about how he realized Julien's looping through Mystery's A1-A3 sequence was the best way to go about combating all this attention she's receiving from other sources (online/texting apps) (again this was back in 2016...its only gotten worse since).

What Julien has done with his system in PIMP is he’s taken Mystery Method and just looped A1 – A3…

A1 (DHV) -> A2 (Female To Male Interest) -> disqualify (her or himself) -> Rinse repeat.

Repeat this loop until A2 is through the roof -> qualify her [opportunity for her to prove she's worthy] -> A3 (Male to Female Interest).


-> "compliance is not giving women what they want".

After she gives you A2 (Female to Male Interest) what is she expecting? A3 (Male to Female Interest), right?

By disqualifying her or yourself (saying or doing anything that might indicate you're not trying to fuck her (pushing her off, kiss denial, walking away, unavailable for a sexual encounter (revealing (jokingly) that you're married/gay), making a false impression/negative cold read of her based on whatever she says, or simply not escalating at any signs of interest from her) after A2, you are not giving her what she wants/expects. Causing her follow up A2 to your A1, to be stronger.

Nowadays I think of A1 / DHV, as just showing off your fun personality (well timed jokes/teases about anything we are discussing) or sharing your unique perspective/knowledge on things that interest people / serves your purpose (i.e. sex prizing), rather than demonstrating Mystery's 5 attraction switches. When I think about it that way, I DHV everyday, by just being myself :)
 

Chase

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This is a neat thread. Great deep dive into the detail by Alek.

I like the A1 --> A2 --> back to A1 looping concept too. I had a buddy who used to do this with girls he picked up in lounges and nightclubs and they'd get very into him.

Requires a fair degree of calibration though. Come to think of it, I used essentially this method as a beginner, not because I knew what I was doing, but because I was shy about showing interest in girls and did not know how to escalate. So women would work themselves up into showing eventually extremely blatant interest in me. Then a little after that they'd auto-reject because I still wasn't reciprocating or escalating.

I think a lot of beginners do this, actually. It's a common pattern you'll see in field reports with newer guys.

The problem is they fail to make a calibrated transition to A3.

Just to answer a couple of questions from @DaVinciMatrixStyle:


VALIDATION TANK TOP OFF

Validation works a little different than, say, gasoline, in how you get the tank to register as full. With gasoline, you hit the full mark when there's a specific quantity of fuel in the tank. With validation, you hit the full mark when a woman can safely conclude "I've got him."

Thus, you're able to continue showing interest in women as they show interest in you, so long as you're never going far enough beyond what they show you that they can conclude, "Ha! I've got him!" ... and so long as you never fall for faked interest and 'reciprocate' with interest that's actually greater than the girls (again, at which point she concludes, "Got 'im!").

To go back to the car salesman analogy, if you step onto the lot and the salesman says they've only got one X Car left and they're supposed to be holding it for another customer, but he'll let you take it for a drive... so long as when you show interest in the car, he matches with a little bit of "Well, maybe we could sell this to you if you were REALLY set on it, but I can't promise anything, I'd have to check," you are still going to feel the need to show more interest and secure the car. If he ever goes far BEYOND your level of interest though, and you're just showing moderate interest and he then says, "Look, if you want the car, to hell with that other guy, I'll sell it to you today," all the urgency and scarcity of the car vanishes and the odds he actually does sell it to you today dry up.

If he paces your interest the whole time though, and you reach the point where you're saying, "Hey buddy, if I can buy the car today, I'll pay you for it NOW," and he's saying, "All right, let me check. I'll make a couple of calls and get you an answer," by the time he comes back with a "yes, you can buy it" you're already bought into the sale. Actually completing the purchase and driving off your lot has become the only acceptable "Got 'im!" validation mark. To fill up the tank you have to secure the car.

This is what you're doing with matching women's interest and escalating it gradually... you are guiding her to the point where ultimately the only thing that will leave her feeling fully validated is her getting fully penetrated.


POST-SEX VALIDATION

As for relationships, see my 2010 article on commitment points:


The overall gist though is that before sex (and also basically before conversion), the woman chases the man's attention-based validation. Men who are successful at getting sex are men who are good at making women desire their complete validation, yet who deny women complete and total validation at any point prior to sex. Engaging in sex with the man is how the woman brings herself to feel fully validated by him. What most un- or under-skilled seducers do is to offer women full validation without sex.

Post-conversion, the woman is no longer chasing attention-based validation as her priority. Instead she shifts to chasing commitment-based validation. When the man does things that bring the relationship closer to commitment, she feels validated. When he does things that bring it further away from that, she feels invalidated.

Thus, the game post-conversion shifts from "I mustn't let her feel I want her attention more than she wants mine" to "I mustn't let her feel I want her commitment more than she wants mine."

And this is basically the permanent state of your game with a woman once you've converted her.

Even if you marry her, have children with her, spend 30 years with her, if you don't want her getting bored of you or losing attraction for you, she must always feel she desires commitment from you a bit more than you desire it from her.

Chase
 
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