"Acquired Value" versus "Natural Value"

metalbird

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Now in my late twenties, I'm starting to get to a point in my life where I kinda have my act together. (About time, right?) Maybe years of hard work are starting to pay off, or maybe I'm just finally getting to the "right age". I look at myself objectively and damn, I'm a pretty attractive, high value dude all around.

And as you would expect, the kind of women I tend to get close to these days are pretty high value. But they're also almost always 7-8 years younger than me. While this is largely consistent with most of the models of dating/mating we use frequently here, it does make me feel a little weird, simply because I feel like I have an "unfair advantage" because of my life experience.

In some ways, I can accept that it's just the circle of life. I used to be a dipshit kid with no chance with the best girls of my own peer group. Now I watch as the male peers of the girls I date run around like headless chickens, obliterating themselves for trying, just like I used to do. But it's also probably true that there are guys younger than me who are far more attractive than I was at their age, even if I'm more attractive than them now.

Now, there's no guarantee that even a younger guy who is "further along" than I was at the same stage of life will continue to grow and improve at the same rate. For any number of reasons, he might plateau. But it still gives me almost a weird, minor sort of impostor syndrome. High value women say that want to be with me, and later, in the back of my mind, I think "Really? I think you could do better than me". Not because they're actually better than me side by side, or higher value overall, but because their value is more innate, whereas I've had to work for mine.

Do I have 10/10 genetics? Hell no! I'm probably above average, but I'm definitely not as good looking as the women I date. Not to mention, I have to work fairly hard in the gym and in general to keep my looks up. The women I date, on the other hand... Well, honestly, they probably put more effort into their looks than I do, but at the same time, they could totally quit and still be really attractive. If I quit trying, oh boy, I'd be a sorry sight in a hurry.

Do these women have money in the bank, social connections and business connections like I do? No, but there are tons of men out there with more money, connections, social position than me. I might be in the top 10%, maybe, but I'm certainly not top 1%, and that's still a lot of men out there. Most of the women I date tend to come from far more high-bred upbringings than mine (not saying much considering I grew up lower-middle class) -- some much have much higher social pedigrees than me, to the point that I feel like Aladdin some times, like the guy who high class women go slumming with while waiting for a proper suitor. However, maybe I'm underestimating what I bring to the table because of the aforementioned time factor.

I could keep going, but I think you guys get the point. Has anyone else felt this way, and do you thing it's well-founded? I've noticed I've developed a tendency to auto-reject some women who ask me for a more serious relationship, even if I'd probably be selfishly quite interested, because I don't want them to get with me and then resent me in a few years when they realize they "married down" or something. Or, I feel like they only want something serious because they feel "in love", i.e. because I have some skill in romance and because I keep them at a distance, in which case, as soon as I give in and agree to something serious, they won't want it anymore.

However, I'm at a point in my life where I am starting to think about starting a family. I could find some decent, somewhat-above-average woman who I know would be loyal and happy with me for me a long time, but it's hard to give up the fantastic relationships I have with some of these top-tier women.

What do you guys think?

Thanks
 

naturalmikey

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if you’re dating hot girls in their early twenties enjoy it. i’m not sure what you’re trying to figure out. you’ve got it made. i’m in my late thirties and date girls of the same age. ride it out as long as you can. they’re the hottest girls. also, you say they could be hotter than you with no effort. come back to them when they’re your age and see how that’s going for them. a large percentage of attractive girls nose dive around 24. i would avoid ltr with a young girl. for that wait several years then go with a genetically gifted woman in her late twenties if that’s what you end up wanting.
 

Grand Pooba

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And as you would expect, the kind of women I tend to get close to these days are pretty high value. But they're also almost always 7-8 years younger than me. While this is largely consistent with most of the models of dating/mating we use frequently here, it does make me feel a little weird, simply because I feel like I have an "unfair advantage" because of my life experience.

I see nothing wrong with this. Enjoy it and don't feel bad about it.

This year in my early 30s the youngest girl I had was 19. Girls like older, mature, attractive guys. It's as true for them at 19 as it is at 33 - and often with more experience those same women have more criteria, attitude, and baggage along with them.

I've also met some really mature and lovely women who are in their 30s, so they definitely exist and you've just got to find them.
 

DarkKnight

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"Unfair advantage". Nothing about life is fair. Some people come from money, others get their fundamentals adressed at a young age giving them a good momentum, others have superior genetics, or a better social circle.

You don't owe anyone anything just as the world doesn't owe you. If you are at a good position now it is because you have facilitated it. You don't have to play fair or by the rules (whatever thaf means). Just enjoy and hold on to the good stuff that you have. The world is not in perfect equilibrum or something. And you're not a druid who tries to maintain balance.
 

naturalmikey

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"Unfair advantage". Nothing about life is fair. Some people come from money, others get their fundamentals adressed at a young age giving them a good momentum, others have superior genetics, or a better social circle.

You don't owe anyone anything just as the world doesn't owe you. If you are at a good position now it is because you have facilitated it. You don't have to play fair or by the rules (whatever thaf means). Just enjoy and hold on to the good stuff that you have. The world is not in perfect equilibrum or something. And you're not a druid who tries to maintain balance.
speaking of unfair you think hot young women don’t have an unfair advantage. i was getting invited out on yachts on the weekend when i was 19. no one was paying my rent.
 

DarkKnight

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Ye
speaking of unfair you think hot young women don’t have an unfair advantage. i was getting invited out on yachts on the weekend when i was 19. no one was paying my rent.
Yeah man so true, but I think we as a later blooming gender have a big advantage here. Because we accumulate tons of experience, make mistakes and see the mistakes of others we can better optimize the use of our increasing value. Work hours can be a bitch though haha
 

Cody Lyans

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I find this kind of thought pattern is self destructive. It follows the pattern of "I feel pretty good about this situation, here are some facts about it, so therefore I should be getting results, but XYZ is standing in the way!"

When I was 17 I was head hunted by some talent scouts to fight in international competitions
I thought I was "the shit" because of it, so I then took on a kind of "I will just reject them" attitude, in order to enforce that feeling of superiority
Now 15 years later, I regret how I trivialised those opportunities.

My point is, if girls 8 years younger than you like you, why are you complaining.
NO SERIOUSLY, you have to stop yourself and ask why you are doing it, because it is probably out of vanity and other bullshit.
If you can get those girls, then DO SO, and don't make excuses about this and that and make it into a better thing than it is.

You will find that once you do that, you will feel clueless and without direction, and there in lies the secret to how you are really feeling.
You are covering up for the fact you feel ill equiped to properly deal with the situation so you want to kick the can down the road.
You want to subvert your own accountability or your own responsibility to yourself, and you want to give it away to another power.

I will tell you, cut that stuff in the bud.
FULFIL your promises to yourself TODAY
Get those girls, and if your mind starts kicking back like "omg this is terrible I hate having women blow me"
Then realise how fn absurd that is rather than keep feeding it and propping it up

Your mind, much like women, has a relationship with you
If you let it, it will make you its bitch,
ORRRRR you can next the thoughts it has, and start to bring out really truthful and fulfilling relationships from behind the facade

Don't let your mind trick you,
 

Chase

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@metalbird,

I've noticed I've developed a tendency to auto-reject some women who ask me for a more serious relationship, even if I'd probably be selfishly quite interested, because I don't want them to get with me and then resent me in a few years when they realize they "married down" or something. Or, I feel like they only want something serious because they feel "in love", i.e. because I have some skill in romance and because I keep them at a distance, in which case, as soon as I give in and agree to something serious, they won't want it anymore.

However, I'm at a point in my life where I am starting to think about starting a family. I could find some decent, somewhat-above-average woman who I know would be loyal and happy with me for me a long time, but it's hard to give up the fantastic relationships I have with some of these top-tier women.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

So, this is a thing I have dealt with quite a bit. I tend to date beautiful, highly educated women with great careers.

The girls I date are the ones where you see the photo of her whole masters class, and she's the hottest girl in the class photo (oftentimes, she's the ONLY hot girl in the class photo).

I have repeatedly dealt with social comparison issues over the years with girlfriends. e.g., girlfriend having a meltdown because everyone in her class is married to a very wealthy guy, meanwhile she is with me, this guy trying to run a small business that he hopes he can make blow up, but he's been running it for years and who knows if it ever will. Maybe it won't.

The important thing to remember here: not every woman cares deeply about money, but every woman falls into social comparison at least some of the time.

If you date a girl for whom money is paramount, and you can't keep up with the Joneses, you're screwed.

However, if your girl is not money-obsessed, then what you are really dealing with when you end up handling drama like this is social comparison.

And THAT, you can beat.

That is really about frame.

When I've dealt with it, the frame is always: "Look, you're right. You're beautiful, intelligent, you have an amazing personality, a great education... you can get any man you want. If you want to leave today and go start dating a guy with several expensive homes and a nice car and a fat bank account, who can fly you all over the world on a moment's notice, you can absolutely do it. I am 100% certain you could. Life with me is hard, I know. I'm not an easy guy to be with. I'm working on some stuff I believe in and I think can work really well. But I've also been working on it for years and it's still only kind of okay. And who knows how long it will take me to get there. Maybe I never will. You need to figure out what's right for you, and whatever that is, I know it'll be a good choice."

When I'm in the moment with something like that, I am ready for the girl to go, and even assume you know what, she's probably going to go. She sounds so upset about this social comparison stuff. Maybe she should go be with a guy who can give her all this stuff she's talking about wanting. I genuinely want her to be happy. Maybe that's not with me. I'll be okay. I can get another one like her if I want to, though of course I'll miss her.

But inevitably she will calm down, start telling me things like that she believes in me, that she doesn't really care about the money, that the thing that triggered her explosion was XYZ disagreement we had and that's what it was really about, etc.

There are lots and lots of guys with money.

There are NOT a lot of guys who are genuinely strong, and can handle a beautiful, intelligent, ambitious, successful woman.

Most guys either bend over like weaklings to these women, or they refuse to even date women who aren't below them in intelligence, education, and career prospects.

These women are typically aware of that. They know they may be able to find a wealthier guy than you, but they also know he is probably not going to be as cool as you or as strong a dude as you are. He is going to have weird quirks, like he will be dominating, or jealous, or a pussy, or get mad at her for stupid things, or be afraid to stick up for himself with her, or feel insecure because she is too strong for him and he will act out or ditch the relationship, etc.

And ultimately, most women care more about that stuff than they do about paper.

Paper is cool. But it's not going to save you if shit gets real. It is not going to make her wet. It is not going to help train the woman's sons into men. Or prevent her daughters from behaving stupid and collapsing their lives. She needs a strong man for all that.

Strong men who are able to handle beautiful women with high IQs and good educations are in short supply.

Much shorter supply than these kinds of women themselves are. A lot of these women end up single in their 40s, with high-powered careers and empty bedrooms, barren wombs, and a bunch of cats, with pictures of themselves from when they used to be young and beautiful.

You never want to say that to them, because it will feel like you are trying to manipulate them into being with you.

Never say that to them.

But know it yourself.

And know that, even if you never 'make it' like some of the men their classmates ended up being with did, they are still pretty fortunate to be with a good, strong man.

Especially if you're going to start a family with them -- that is something a lot of these women do not get to do. Both they and their husbands are so busy working, by the time they realize it's time for a kid, they have to load themselves up on fertility drugs in time to pop out one developmentally disabled child they had over the cusp of 40. It's really not ideal... and if you can help them avoid that fiasco and actually lead a healthy life with a good, strong guy, they are going to tend to love that and be grateful for it, 95% of the time (when they're not sucked into social comparison for whatever reason and lamenting how green the grass is with a wealthier man, of course).

Chase
 

Grand Pooba

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Men seem to think money is a rite of passage to women; yet it seems time and time again that women are often attracted to men with almost no money, but instead charm and attraction. Yet, it’s possible too for a man with money to have such things, and that would be the ideal. I think women care more about social skills and how a guy makes her feel than money, unless she may be trying to uphold a certain social image. In those latter moments you often have women seeing one guy publicly and fucking another guy privately.
 

metalbird

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All very helpful responses. I think the social comparison factor is definitely at play. And to Chase's point, it reminds me of a situation I encounter a lot, when girls tell me about how often they get offers from sugar daddies. I'll get texts like "OMG this old man offered to be my sugar daddy at the grocery store today. He seemed pretty rich too..." etc. Which my reply is always, "hey, if you want it, get it, just know dinner's on you next time ;)" which always makes them laugh, because deep down we both know that's not what either of us really want. But at the same time, I genuinely mean it; I know what I do and don't have to offer, and I'm not afraid of being transparent about it.

Thinking about my OP more over the past week, I think I identified a major component of what I was trying to get at.
Let's say I'm dating a girl who is 20. From an external perspective, this girl and I are perfectly matched. We both have lots of options, different strengths and weaknesses, but essentially we are equals in terms of overall sum "value", or whatever you want to call it.
The difference is, from her perspective, she's always been so. Whereas with me, I know what it's like to get rejected 1000 times. I know what it feels like to be unwanted and have to work hard and long to get somewhere in the world. I empathize more. I'm humbler in my interactions with other people (even if she's overall a very nice/kind person).

I'm still trying to figure out all the implications of this and why it bothers me just a little.
 

Sub-Zero

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@metalbird,



So, this is a thing I have dealt with quite a bit. I tend to date beautiful, highly educated women with great careers.

The girls I date are the ones where you see the photo of her whole masters class, and she's the hottest girl in the class photo (oftentimes, she's the ONLY hot girl in the class photo).

I have repeatedly dealt with social comparison issues over the years with girlfriends. e.g., girlfriend having a meltdown because everyone in her class is married to a very wealthy guy, meanwhile she is with me, this guy trying to run a small business that he hopes he can make blow up, but he's been running it for years and who knows if it ever will. Maybe it won't.

The important thing to remember here: not every woman cares deeply about money, but every woman falls into social comparison at least some of the time.

If you date a girl for whom money is paramount, and you can't keep up with the Joneses, you're screwed.

However, if your girl is not money-obsessed, then what you are really dealing with when you end up handling drama like this is social comparison.

And THAT, you can beat.

That is really about frame.

When I've dealt with it, the frame is always: "Look, you're right. You're beautiful, intelligent, you have an amazing personality, a great education... you can get any man you want. If you want to leave today and go start dating a guy with several expensive homes and a nice car and a fat bank account, who can fly you all over the world on a moment's notice, you can absolutely do it. I am 100% certain you could. Life with me is hard, I know. I'm not an easy guy to be with. I'm working on some stuff I believe in and I think can work really well. But I've also been working on it for years and it's still only kind of okay. And who knows how long it will take me to get there. Maybe I never will. You need to figure out what's right for you, and whatever that is, I know it'll be a good choice."

When I'm in the moment with something like that, I am ready for the girl to go, and even assume you know what, she's probably going to go. She sounds so upset about this social comparison stuff. Maybe she should go be with a guy who can give her all this stuff she's talking about wanting. I genuinely want her to be happy. Maybe that's not with me. I'll be okay. I can get another one like her if I want to, though of course I'll miss her.

But inevitably she will calm down, start telling me things like that she believes in me, that she doesn't really care about the money, that the thing that triggered her explosion was XYZ disagreement we had and that's what it was really about, etc.

There are lots and lots of guys with money.

There are NOT a lot of guys who are genuinely strong, and can handle a beautiful, intelligent, ambitious, successful woman.

Most guys either bend over like weaklings to these women, or they refuse to even date women who aren't below them in intelligence, education, and career prospects.

These women are typically aware of that. They know they may be able to find a wealthier guy than you, but they also know he is probably not going to be as cool as you or as strong a dude as you are. He is going to have weird quirks, like he will be dominating, or jealous, or a pussy, or get mad at her for stupid things, or be afraid to stick up for himself with her, or feel insecure because she is too strong for him and he will act out or ditch the relationship, etc.

And ultimately, most women care more about that stuff than they do about paper.

Paper is cool. But it's not going to save you if shit gets real. It is not going to make her wet. It is not going to help train the woman's sons into men. Or prevent her daughters from behaving stupid and collapsing their lives. She needs a strong man for all that.

Strong men who are able to handle beautiful women with high IQs and good educations are in short supply.

Much shorter supply than these kinds of women themselves are. A lot of these women end up single in their 40s, with high-powered careers and empty bedrooms, barren wombs, and a bunch of cats, with pictures of themselves from when they used to be young and beautiful.

You never want to say that to them, because it will feel like you are trying to manipulate them into being with you.

Never say that to them.

But know it yourself.

And know that, even if you never 'make it' like some of the men their classmates ended up being with did, they are still pretty fortunate to be with a good, strong man.

Especially if you're going to start a family with them -- that is something a lot of these women do not get to do. Both they and their husbands are so busy working, by the time they realize it's time for a kid, they have to load themselves up on fertility drugs in time to pop out one developmentally disabled child they had over the cusp of 40. It's really not ideal... and if you can help them avoid that fiasco and actually lead a healthy life with a good, strong guy, they are going to tend to love that and be grateful for it, 95% of the time (when they're not sucked into social comparison for whatever reason and lamenting how green the grass is with a wealthier man, of course).

Chase
I’m surprised you getting this from these women. I thought them knowing you have a small business would make them think you make pretty decent money on your own terms.

I thought they would think it would be cooler to be with someone that makes money of his own brand and isn’t working for someone else.

Idk if you told them how much you make, but I thought they were assume you would be making pretty good money if you have your own business.

How much more do you want GC to blow up? I remember reading you didn’t want to deal with the media and press, but I was curious on what else you planned to do to make the business grow and how much is enough where it doesn’t get known by the people in the media who hate on this stuff?

And what do her boyfriends/husbands do to be so wealthy? At first I assumed that they were in their 20s or early 30s, but now I’m thinking maybe these guys are older than that?

Just curious.
 

Space

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Idk if you told them how much you make, but I thought they were assume you would be making pretty good money if you have your own business.
95% of small business, startups and the like never make a profit, go bankrupt and things like that. 95% is just a guesstimate out of my A to give you the basic idea.
 

Sub-Zero

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95% of small business, startups and the like never make a profit, go bankrupt and things like that. 95% is just a guesstimate out of my A to give you the basic idea.
Yeah, but I’m sure @Chase shows a way that his business is successful somehow.
 

Space

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Yeah, but I’m sure @Chase shows a way that his business is successful somehow.
Sure. Girls Chase is in the information business. Information businesses usually offer some free information and some paid information. Then still the majority of the sales comes from live events or coaching. This is even true for big shots like Tony Robbins.

But out of the dating advice guys the Girls Chase team is the only one where based on their free information I'm simply unable to form an informed decision whether their paid information is really for me or is their style my style (relates to the topic "Acquired Value" versus "Natural Value"), etc. Location, location, location. It's not that their individual articles are bad in themselves. They consider featuring a wide range of opinions with the authors often contradicting each other a strength, not a weakness. Fine, but no surprise beginner to mid-intermediate guys are confused by them.

I really enjoyed this video, the short segment between 55:10 and 55:40 relates here (discussion). What do you think? I'm still rooting for team Girls Chase to figure this out, I truly do. Even though it seems like I'm giving them tough love treatment. But that's just how I do.
 
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Sub-Zero

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Sure. Girls Chase is in the information business. Information businesses usually offer some free information and some paid information. Then still the majority of the sales comes from live events or coaching. This is even true for big shots like Tony Robbins.

But out of the dating advice guys the Girls Chase team is the only one where based on their free information I'm simply unable to form an informed decision whether their paid information is really for me or is their style my style (relates to the topic "Acquired Value" versus "Natural Value"), etc. Location, location, location. It's not that their individual articles are bad in themselves. They consider featuring a wide range of opinions with the authors often contradicting each other a strength, not a weakness. Fine, but no surprise beginner to mid-intermediate guys are confused by them.

I really enjoyed this video, the short segment between 55:10 and 55:40 relates here (discussion). What do you think? I'm still rooting for team Girls Chase to figure this out, I truly do. Even though it seems like I'm giving them tough love treatment. But that's just how I do.
I’m curious space, what is your goal with women? Are you trying to get with multiple chicks? Girlfriend? Married? Ever been married?

I know you have been on here for some time, but I never really seen any posts of what your goal was.
 

Space

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I’m curious space, what is your goal with women? Are you trying to get with multiple chicks? Girlfriend? Married? Ever been married?

I know you have been on here for some time, but I never really seen any posts of what your goal was.
Thanks for asking! Draft for long post has been eaten by the system lol but I've actually addressed this question briefly in Oh Pry's thread Big picture goals behind game and women outside of sex and LTR.

Anyone else with some big picture goals?
Big picture goals? Outside of sex and LTR? Sex-relationship as a spiritual experience or path. Just the usual, boring stuff you know. OK, then this doesn't answer your question "outside of sex and LTR."
So yeah, nothing special, really.
 

Sub-Zero

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Thanks for asking! Draft for long post has been eaten by the system lol but I've actually addressed this question briefly in Oh Pry's thread Big picture goals behind game and women outside of sex and LTR.


So yeah, nothing special, really.
So like a relationship with a spiritual experience or path? Do you go out and game like that or is it more of you’ll get it when you get it?
 

Grand Pooba

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At the end of the day from a girl's point of view, she doesn't care if your talent with women is natural or if it's acquired - girls care more about the end than the mean (especially HER end, where she stands in the end). However she's more prone to assume it's natural if you're good, and I think that if you were to come outright and tell her you were a natural OR a learned guy, she'd probably value "natural" a bit more since it's biologically superior.

It always comes down to genetics and babies anyway in the end - women are a vessel for passing genes.
 

featherentertainment

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@metalbird,

. I tend to date beautiful, highly educated women with great careers.

The girls I date are the ones where you see the photo of her whole masters class, and she's the hottest girl in the class photo (oftentimes, she's the ONLY hot girl in the class photo).

What is situation and your experience during beginning stage of relationship with those women? Every woman I met who has those things already has already during her university stage long term relationship with boyfriend or fiance? I speculate those girls you got into relationships with so far broke up with such boyfriend or fiance for you. What is situation and your experience when those girls break up with their current boyfriend or fiance for you?

As a side note. I speculate those girls are 25 - 30 years old. Do you find there are some things from them you deal with because those girls at this stage are focusing on career and didn't start families yet?
 
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