Alternatives to the London Daygame Model

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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So in general I can regularly get 6s and the occasional 7 from tinder. And yet the last 2000 approaches from the standard Street stop compliment opener followed by cold read tease etc approach has resulted in no lays. I generally approached 7s and above (7-8s as 9s are rare).

I can understand if 8s are not accessible that can be a fundamentals thing. But from what everyone writes here it should be possible to get 7s more consistently from cold approach than tinder, but this goes against the data. (although historically I have had some high 7s and even 8s from daygame but never an 8 from online)

One option is to forego daygame and go with night but nightlife isn't so good here and I'd rather not stay up late 3+ times per week (and anyway nightlife isn't opened up yet from quarantine) .

So this leads me to believe that the standard compliment opener and chat is shit in general, or just shit for me.

Ironically after the first 1200 or so I tried an aggressive Scotty gll type approach and from that I got dates from it sometimes which I almost never did from ldm here but I fucked up all the dates. So I could try that again but go for 7s only and work on my date game with the 3 keys extensively. Still it seems odd that that would be an effective approach in general.

Is there a more effective model for street approaching?
Or better to go for stationary targets inside stores and use indirect routine stacks and so on?
Or parks (but what would be a good approach for a girl sitting in a park other than a compliment opener?)

Sorry I know this seems basic but I haven't been in the game actively for a little while and want to do more cold approach and don't want to make the same mistakes.

Would rather not do high pressure situations like public transport or situations with few targets so can't really train the approach a lot and practice (like grocery stores)
 

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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With the standard ldm about 2/3 will walk off during or right after the opener, and then only maybe 10% will stay past one minute or so. Half of those will give a # they don't answer.
 

Bacchus

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Is there a more effective model for street approaching?

How to open indirect in street game.

Or better to go for stationary targets inside stores and use indirect routine stacks and so on?

It might be better for you to practice reality pacing and curiosity gambits in calmer venues first though. Like coffee shops, bookstores, mall benches, college campuses and clothing stores. Read this article I wrote for more pragmatic tips, strategic breakdowns. . . and examples of these techs.

Or parks (but what would be a good approach for a girl sitting in a park other than a compliment opener?)

“Is it cool if I sit here?” Then after sitting in silence. . . for a few moments. Follow up with some variation of what I mentioned above. Something else you may want to consider is completely abandoning the 1-10 scale. IME and in the experiences of others, it does far more harm than good. . .
 
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Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Thanks bacchus.

I've tried stopping a girl and saying situational things and there is always a confused "can I help you?" type of response.

One old school thing I think I'll try is horse girl, which is from Bradp and technically indirect but it still makes sense why you specifically opened her.
I wonder if there are more openers like that. I know Gunwitch uses you look like my exgf but that seems way too cheesy and transparent to me.

That's also a problem I have with sitting next to the girl in the park, if there are other open spaces around, why must you sit next to her? It seems a bit transparent that you want to open her specifically and you're just thinking of a way.

I've used situational openers and then transitioning in bookstores and that can be OK but there are usually few targets there, at least here.

Maybe I can try farmer's markets it seems there are more opportunities there for girls amenable to situational opening (or reality pacing)

The 1-10 scale is an empirically relevant measure, as in there are vast differences in how 6s Vs 7s vs 8s respond to the same thing. At this point I don't even approwch or ever plan to approach 8s as I've learned it's largely a complete waste of time.
 

West_Indian_Archie

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Horse Girl is a night game routine. It doesn't say this explicitly, but when you use social intelligence the whole scenario will sound very out of place during the day. If you can't read between the lines, see what is not said, then this will be very hard for you.

The routine itself is more than just a "do I know you from somewhere", or "you look like someone I know", or "aren't you from X,Y, and Z place" (all of which are normie pick up lines that can be used by anyone to get an expected reaction) - it's you look like this weird girl that I used to tease, and it implies higher social status and is also an offer for her to play along.

In a bar or a club (specifically the hard rock/heavy metal/alt/goth scene in NYC), where Brad P focused his energy - the night allows for much more loose talk and oddball socializing. The low key social contract of any night game venue is that people are there to socialize and be entertained.

You're blatantly ignoring social dynamics if you use that during the day.

Who Lies More, the Cube, Strawberry Fields, Soul Gazing, etc... all of the classics have obvious but not written down constraints.

>It seems a bit transparent that you want to open her specifically and you're just thinking of a way.

Why are you trying to hide your interest?

Indirect is not lulling a girl into a false sense of security and then pulling your dick out. It's not a delayed direct.

Indirect is you starting a conversation with a girl, and she is so into the conversation/interaction that she's INDIRECTLY attracted to you. She's chasing you, she wants more from you. And you essentially trade her need for novelty/validation for cooperation (some say compliance, but I prefer the term cooperation).

You're creating a situation where the girl wants to please you, wants to make you happy, because you're stirring up this "energy" (for lack of a better term) inside of her. It's literally her hearing a new song, or seeing a cool outfit for the first time. That's why you see so-called indirect in every walk of life, not just seduction. It's often the dynamic between boss and employee, Pastor and parishoner.

If you're studious enough to keep track of 2,000 approaches, I would expect much more in terms of SELF learning and realizations, not just regurgitation of techniques with no regard for environment and delivery.

This "mix and match" approach, where you grab various styles, isn't helping you to see the patterns in female behavior, social behavior, and your own. This is a major problem for newbs and guys that have only done 100 approaches. You've been at this for awhile and you don't seem to learn from your experiences.

Pick something that you like, or where you resemble the coach, or where that resembles your personality, and stick to it.

WIA
 

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Well I understand the logic you are coming from but I also did experiment with various styles and found that I couldn't make them work for me. Hence this thread in particular, I'm interested in day game and especially walking Street girls seem to be plenty in number and thus if I can consistently hook them that'd be great, but the typical style of ldm involving a compliment opener is something I could never get to work consistently, and hence I am asking the collective wisdom of the forum for alternative models and strategies that I could try, for daytime in general and ideally walking Street sets in particular. It really is a mystery to me as to what can work for this situation given that almost everyone employs a method that has been a colossal failure for me, to the point that the results are worse than tinder which everyone espouses as yielding worse results than cold approach
 

West_Indian_Archie

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>I also did experiment with various styles and found that I couldn't make them work for me

Why?

What was the failure point?
  • Was it previous to the walk up?
  • The walk up itself?
  • The opener?
  • The pause between the opener?
  • The transition?
  • Plowing through the initial reaction?
  • Getting her hooked?
  • Environmental distractions?
  • Lack of comfort? Lack of trust?
  • No banter material?
  • Going biographical too soon?
  • Can't instadate?
  • Too much arousal? Not enough?
  • Numbers flake?

Before you leave the LDM, you need to assess where it failed. As far as I know, there isn't another specific day game model to switch to.

Simple Pick Up was dumbed down LDM.
Day Game/Street game as practiced by RSD or MM isn't a model specific to day game.
Most of the guys pushing day game models, tend to be out of the same community of London guys doing their thing at Leicester Square. Yad Stops, cold reads/compliment openers, show intent, go for coffee or grab a number.

Rather than drop the model, figure out what you're doing wrong/where the model is failing.

WIA
 

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I said as such, 2/3 walk off during or right after the compliment opener and most of the rest in the first minute. Many have said it is an issue of vibe, but without any concrete tools to be able to change this successfully.
 

Bacchus

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I've tried stopping a girl and saying situational things and there is always a confused "can I help you?" type of response.

Getting girls out of polite conversation is a skill.

Doing this hyper-consistently requires mastery over nuanced verbal and non verbal techs. If she has stopped to hear you out. . . then you have entered the first phase of the game. Now your objective is to continue making progress. Focus your efforts. . . on getting results not reactions.

One old school thing I think I'll try is horse girl, which is from Bradp and technically indirect but it still makes sense why you specifically opened her. I wonder if there are more openers like that. I know Gunwitch uses you look like my exgf but that seems way too cheesy and transparent to me.

Do you expect to be spoon fed with more openers after dismissing what you haven't even tried?

The model Gunwitch details in SMMA is the strategic foundation of how I use tech. The same can be said. . . for many advanced guys here. And if you take another look at the title of this thread. . . you will see why I might issue with your quick dismissal. After all, real empiricists test.

That's also a problem I have with sitting next to the girl in the park, if there are other open spaces around, why must you sit next to her? It seems a bit transparent that you want to open her specifically and you're just thinking of a way.

There's nothing wrong with a conversationalist sitting next to a girl before getting her hooked.

I've used situational openers and then transitioning in bookstores and that can be OK but there are usually few targets there, at least here.

That's good, keep at it.

Maybe I can try farmer's markets it seems there are more opportunities there for girls amenable to situational opening (or reality pacing)

This is better. . . instead of dismissing and complaining. Always make an effort to look for and test out potential solutions.

The 1-10 scale is an empirically relevant measure, as in there are vast differences in how 6s Vs 7s vs 8s respond to the same thing. At this point I don't even approwch or ever plan to approach 8s as I've learned it's largely a complete waste of time.

Not necessarily.
 

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Getting girls out of polite conversation is a skill.

Doing this hyper-consistently requires mastery over nuanced verbal and non verbal techs. If she has stopped to hear you out. . . then you have entered the first phase of the game. Now your objective is to continue making progress. Focus your efforts. . . on getting results not reactions.
So you stack curiosity gambits and cold reads until she is hooked to the point that she doesn't really care to know as to why you stopped her? Is that the objective pretty much?


Do you expect to be spoon fed with more openers after dismissing what you haven't even tried?

The model Gunwitch details in SMMA is the strategic foundation of how I use tech. The same can be said. . . for many advanced guys here. And if you take another look at the title of this thread. . . you will see why I might issue with your quick dismissal. After all, real empiricists test.
Well obviously horse girl is a much better opener in this case and is of a similar sort, or there are more low key ones that accomplish it. Anyway the specific lines are less important than the technique in general so OK it's a moot point on my part I can just a similar but better quality opener of this sort.
There's nothing wrong with a conversationalist sitting next to a girl before getting her hooked.
"can I sit here? "
" Why ? There is room over there"

That's good, keep at it.



This is better. . . instead of dismissing and complaining. Always make an effort to look for and test out potential solutions.



Not necessarily.
That's theory I'm talking experience, that the data suggests 6s are standard for me, 7s are challenging but possible and 8s cannot be attracted to me. That's from intensive empirical testing.[/quote][/quote]
 

Bacchus

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So you stack curiosity gambits and cold reads until she is hooked to the point that she doesn't really care to know as to why you stopped her? Is that the objective pretty much?

This is one effective way to reach the hook point.

Because it immerses her. . . in an emotionally stimulating conversation with you. Remember to speak in a slow and low voice. While holding eye contact until she breaks it first when you deliver your opener. I suggest you go test this out. . . with as much calibration as a stack allows.

Well obviously horse girl is a much better opener in this case and is of a similar sort, or there are more low key ones that accomplish it. Anyway the specific lines are less important than the technique in general so OK it's a moot point on my part I can just a similar but better quality opener of this sort.

WIA told you why the horse girl opener is bad for day game. However, telling a girl she looks like your ex. . . frames you as a man who already dates and fucks girls who are as attractive as her. This is just a portion of Gun's opener though, because there is a curiosity inducing follow up.

But you can simply proceed with interest bait, truisms and cold reads. While benefiting from a stronger initial perception.

Or whatever floats your boat man. . . it's your sex life. Again, taking the title of your thread into consideration. Try to avoid making such claims without rigorous field testing of both techs. It just doesn't frame you as a guy. . . who really knows what he is talking about.

"can I sit here? "
" Why ? There is room over there"

This is slightly different from what I suggested. But that phrasing is significantly worse. Anyway. . . never happened to me. What about you?

That's theory I'm talking experience, that the data suggests 6s are standard for me, 7s are challenging but possible and 8s cannot be attracted to me. That's from intensive empirical testing.

Your answer to my question above better be yes. Because if its not. . . this argument is pure hypocrisy.
 
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YS.

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Hey buddy,

Direct intentful street game with hard stops is by far the hardest, most skillful (or skilless, depending on how you look at it) form of game with the least success rate possible. It's a complete numbers game that rely heavily on tourists and inherent status dynamics.

I've read almost all of Krauser's works and he rarely, if ever, fucked an established chick. (local, high status, etc) Always outsiders, tourists, immigrants...

I did direct street game for 2 years. It's a logistics/comfort nightmare. The optics of it is horrendous. I usually had no problem hooking, but even then it's a crapshoot.

The most important factor in a girl is Availability especially for daygame. (kudos to Valentino Kohen for the insight) The beauty of nightgame is that almost every girl is logistically (and time wise) available to talk to you. They just could be socially unavailable. But in dg, you run into many logistics and time issues on top of even more social issues.

I highly suggest gaming stationary girls who have nothing to do. You'll see your results go crazy high. That was how I really leveled up my results, combined with learning proper comfort game.

Also...

You seem to have a vibe problem, not a method problem. If you have a good vibe, You might get rejected but girls should be willing to talk to you and at least interact with you. Even when they're not interested. You seem very defeatist about it instead of trying to fix your vibe problem.

You need massive state for direct high energy street game. Do you know how to get yourself into state? You absolutely need to overpower and dominate the girls reality. Especially if she's walking with purpose. You gotta break that energy. That's why it's super difficult. You gotta fucking bring it. (or find low status, wandering, Needy chicks) It also requires massive macro momentum beyond most other game forms due to how fucking weird / hard it is.

Cheers.

Addendum: Forget about the 1 10 system if it's limiting for you. It's complete bullshit and mostly a self fulfilling prophecy. You'll fucking act weird and more scarce if you think a girl is an 8 but be completely free and abundant if you think she's a 6. From my experience a regular 6 is tremendously more stuck up, bitter and resentful than a prettier women. (Opening a 6 on early Friday is much harder than pulling an orgy of 10's late Sunday. -Tyler) Ofc extremely high status chicks is different but that's not exactly an 8. Honestly bro it's much better to not even think about this and completely out frame it.
 
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Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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This is one effective way to reach the hook point.

Because it immerses her. . . in an emotionally stimulating conversation with you. Remember to speak in a slow and low voice. While holding eye contact until she breaks it first when you deliver your opener. I suggest you go test this out. . . with as much calibration as a stack allows.
OK. Seems like tactically still much easier to do with stationary targets so I can work on implementing this strategy in parks and farmers markets, and maybe bookstores, the only places I can think of that could have some stationary girls in my city. I imagine logistically to pull this off you have to be slowly happening to almost walk past her and then do a bit of a double take to pretend to notice the first cold read etc.

WIA told you why the horse girl opener is bad for day game. However, telling a girl she looks like your ex. . . frames you as a man who already dates and fucks girls who are as attractive as her. This is just a portion of Gun's opener though, because there is a curiosity inducing follow up.
You look like my ex is an extremely obvious "I am hitting on you but pretending not to" you might as well just do direct at that point.

But the discussion is productive I can brainstorm things that can seem like she looks like someone that's not obviously hitting on her but also not as silly as horse girl.

But you can simply proceed with interest bait, truisms and cold reads. While benefiting from a stronger initial perception.

Or whatever floats your boat man. . . it's your sex life. Again, taking the title of your thread into consideration. Try to avoid making such claims without rigorous field testing of both techs. It just doesn't frame you as a guy. . . who really knows what he is talking about.



This is slightly different from what I suggested. But that phrasing is significantly worse. Anyway. . . never happened to me. What about you?
Yes of course. To me again sitting next to a girl when there are other places you can sit is another obvious "I am hitting on you but pretending not to" which is a weaker frame than direct. But again the discussion is productive, the optics on walking by as she is sitting pretending to walk somewhere else behind her then suddenly noticing she resembles someone makes actual sense.

Your answer to my question above better be yes. Because if its not. . . this argument is pure hypocrisy.
Not at all. If with every style of game I've ever tried tinder night day social circle 6s are common 7s are a bit of a challenge and 8s are impossible then that's a pretty definitive observation that one cannot dispute.
 

Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Hey buddy,

Direct intentful street game with hard stops is by far the hardest, most skillful (or skilless, depending on how you look at it) form of game with the least success rate possible. It's a complete numbers game that rely heavily on tourists and inherent status dynamics.

I've read almost all of Krauser's works and he rarely, if ever, fucked an established chick. (local, high status, etc) Always outsiders, tourists, immigrants...
Interesting. His approach to lay rate is extremely impressive, if I had 3% for 7s I'd be happy as a pig in shit. But one possibility is he is relying on the sexy stereotype of a wealthy English traveling writer that's hot to women in poorer eastern European countries, and that's the reason his success rate is so phenomenally good.
Of course locals will always be more difficult due to social circle competition, with any style of game.

I did direct street game for 2 years. It's a logistics/comfort nightmare. The optics of it is horrendous. I usually had no problem hooking, but even then it's a crapshoot.

The most important factor in a girl is Availability especially for daygame. (kudos to Valentino Kohen for the insight) The beauty of nightgame is that almost every girl is logistically (and time wise) available to talk to you. They just could be socially unavailable. But in dg, you run into many logistics and time issues on top of even more social issues.

I highly suggest gaming stationary girls who have nothing to do. You'll see your results go crazy high. That was how I really leveled up my results, combined with learning proper comfort game.
OK. As above the only places I can think of that could have more stationary girls is parks and farmers markets and maybe bookstores. I suppose public transit but if my vibe sometimes creeps girls out I'd rather not be in a such a high pressure place.


Also...

You seem to have a vibe problem, not a method problem. If you have a good vibe, You might get rejected but girls should be willing to talk to you and at least interact with you. Even when they're not interested. You seem very defeatist about it instead of trying to fix your vibe problem.
That's like saying you have a height problem. If no one has any clue as to how to change something then it's something to work around rather than consider directly.
You need massive state for direct high energy street game. Do you know how to get yourself into state? You absolutely need to overpower and dominate the girls reality. Especially if she's walking with purpose. You gotta break that energy. That's why it's super difficult. You gotta fucking bring it. (or find low status, wandering, Needy chicks) It also requires massive macro momentum beyond most other game forms due to how fucking weird / hard it is.
State is a dogshit concept like anything that rsd has ever taught. In that it's not actionable with a high level of control, whereas behavior and words are.

That said on the topic of state and vibe the only time I was able to get dates from street game is a Sexually aggressive approach, as I can certainly become horny but I can't become charismatically emotionally effusive. So for street I'll experiment some more with it but it looks by and large indirect with stationary girls is much better overall from what you and bacchus say.

Cheers.

Addendum: Forget about the 1 10 system if it's limiting for you. It's complete bullshit and mostly a self fulfilling prophecy. You'll fucking act weird and more scarce if you think a girl is an 8 but be completely free and abundant if you think she's a 6. From my experience a regular 6 is tremendously more stuck up, bitter and resentful than a prettier women. (Opening a 6 on early Friday is much harder than pulling an orgy of 10's late Sunday. -Tyler) Ofc extremely high status chicks is different but that's not exactly an 8. Honestly bro it's much better to not even think about this and completely out frame it.
Anything that's measureable and has a significant effect on outcomes should be considered. And it's actionably relevant, as in I should take more risks with 6s since another one will be around the corner, play a more solid game with 7s, and not bother with 8s period.
 

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Tribal Elder
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State is a dogshit concept like anything that rsd has ever taught. In that it's not actionable with a high level of control, whereas behavior and words are.

2x bullshit. 1) Not only RSD writes about state and 2) there are actionable techs to get into state. This is very typical of you, shoot down advice you have not tried based on your own misconceptions and illiteracy, which you ironically are very confident in. You did not even try to investigate this before discounting it. These non-RSD articles literally took me 5 seconds to find by typing "state control" into the search field on GC and pressing the button. You had just the same negative attitude when you where here in Oslo, you complained about the venues not having enough hot women despite everybody else we went out with were in OK sets. It is perhaps not strange that you struggle with the hook point until you correct this, which I doubt you ever will. What vibe does it project when you are totally convinced that nothing will work? Probably defeatism and fatalism, which women will surely pick up. All your threads are similar, stuff won't work due to weird negative beliefs that usually are not even remotely true. YS is totally correct, you have the same problem with other methods, it is not the LDM that is at fault. And yes this is actionable. STOP assuming all sorts of negative crap and START just doing what you are told. But I don't have high hopes that you will act on this simple advice.

You are anyway a good person. So this is just tragic.

 
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Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Those are night game articles, not relevant for day game, which necessarily involves long periods of silence in between the interactions.

Also, and a few respectable gurus say this not me, state should not be anything anyone should concern themselves with, skillset is. If bad shit happened to you that day, it should not affect your results you should be able to execute the right gameplan and techniques and strategies to be effective. "When things are difficult you don't rise to the occasion you fall to your level of training". State and vibe and all that crap that's not actionable is not something I have any interest in considering, but I am eager to learn and develop new concrete and effective techniques strategies, skillsets and methods. LDM is obviously entirely garbage in those terms and hence I am looking for an alternative.

Of course with anything anyone writes there are good and bad ideas but if among the good ideas there is something promising that itself is great. And this methodology of seeking out specifically stationary girls, focusing solely on 7s, going by about to walk past and then pretending to notice something about them, and stacking cold reads and open loops sounds like a solid gameplan I haven't tried yet that seems like it's worthwhile to train and see if I can make effective.
 

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Tribal Elder
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Those are night game articles, not relevant for day game, which necessarily involves long periods of silence in between the interactions.

Lol, exactly as predicted. Invent more BS reasons out of thin air why stuff won't work . Reject advice from those who do not have the problem. Multiple BS claims here like the assumptions that there is no correlation between day and night game in general, and specifically in terms of state control. Or the assumption that long perods of silence induces a negative state (it does not in me). Also you have this problem at night also. If your premise was true, you could solve it at night atleast. But you just take the dismissive approach.

Also, and a few respectable gurus say this not me, state should not be anything anyone should concern themselves with, skillset is. If bad shit happened to you that day, it should not affect your results you should be able to execute the right gameplan and techniques and strategies to be effective. "When things are difficult you don't rise to the occasion you fall to your level of training".

This is just horseshit. If bad shit happens to you every day you will likely end up with PTSD or depression or both, which will highly fuck over your game. I am yet to meet somebody who is immune to this. You may be able to still execute a gameplan but your results WILL suffer.

State and vibe and all that crap that's not actionable is not something I have any interest in considering, but I am eager to learn and develop new concrete and effective techniques strategies, skillsets and methods.

See what you are doing now? I sent you actionable articles about state control and you still keep claiming it is not actionable. That is, repeating an already refuted point. And you are also an educated man who should know better than resorting to such fallacies in a discussion.

LDM is obviously entirely garbage in those terms and hence I am looking for an alternative.

You only blame the LDM because you don't want to confront your ACTUAL problem. David D, I think it was denoted this behavior "creative avoidance". As long as you continue like this, there is absolutely no point in asking questions or paying coaches.

Not going to reply more to this thread, have a nice day.
 
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Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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The article points to things that are relevant only for nightgame, talk to people constantly basically and have social momentum, or obvious things that I do and probably everyone else does already in terms of making sure you are more in a good mood than not.

Long periods of silence don't affect my state either. In fact I find the rsd style of constantly talking to everyone tiring and prefer to take a minute between approaches sometimes.

Ultimately there is nothing in any of these articles that I either don't already do and applies to day game. Furthermore if there is a vibe issue it is either a general personality thing, because my results are largely the same if I'm in a subjectively good mood or not, or something that's always triggered whe I'm doing an approach. And thus not actionable.
 

ljrozz69

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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would you consider yourself as "depressed"?

Here are some symptoms -only a few are enough to consider it:
  • Trouble concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
  • Avoidance coping
  • Fatigue
  • Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and helplessness
  • Pessimism and hopelessness
  • Insomnia, early-morning wakefulness, or sleeping too much
  • Irritability
  • Restlessness
  • Loss of interest in things once pleasurable, including sex
  • Overeating, or appetite loss
  • Aches, pains, headaches, or cramps that won't go away
  • Digestive problems that don't get better, even with treatment
  • Persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" feelings
  • Suicidal thoughts or attempts
 
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