BOYFRIEND or FRIENDZONE?

[ac1000]

Hello community, I have a big issue and I don't know where to look for an advice. It's my first time when I post in this section, so, be warm and nice with me.


Wednesday I had a first date with a girl that I meet online. She is nice, smart, pretty cute, one year older than me. 23 and me, 22. ( this might be important in the story )
We had a great time together, good talk, good investment and feelings but I couldn t make it to get her home, even if I felt that she was attracted. ( she was flirty, slighty out of control with some body touches and some kisses ). She was telling me that she's not the type of girl that sleep with guys on the first date, impliying the fact that she only had 2 relationships, 2 sexual parteners. I kinda let her see me as a bad boy, implying that sleeping with girls fast is nothing new and hard for me,party hard every week and doing a lot of adventure and fun.
I was working very hard to get her home, deep dive, physical connection, chase framing, but she was stubborn.
After 24 hours I sent her a text where I asked her if she's really home alone this weekend like she said. ( she knew that I won't be in town this weekend and teasted me )


We talk a little the next whole day ( small talks ) and I've asked her if she wants to come over Monday to cook something together. She said " we'll see " but didn't react. Today I asked her to call me. After a pretty good talk, I told her that I have to make my plans and asked her is she can do it on Monday. She said she won't, and she told me that couln t do this week. ( She told me some girly girl things like she had to do a tratment for her skin ).


I told that we should do this real soon, she was rejecting me .I asked her to be honest and tell me whats the thing we have had a fight, something like
" If we will meet again, on the second date, or third, in the end we will have sex. And I don't want to do that with you. You're 22,you just starting life and I'm 23, finished a college and looking for something serious,for a job, I want to buy an apartment and you.. " I felt offented in that moment, then I just dropped. " I understood, so you think that I'm a fool and I have nothing. That's fine.Have a good night " . She get mad. I felt like she was fucking hard with me, and she did. I felt like I was nobody in her eyes. She removed me from facebook and instagram and after I calm myself, I called her again and told her that she behave like a child. I was telling her that I'm closer than her to get an apartament, in a funny way. She wanted to explain herself, telling me that she respect me and think that I'm an inteligent person, but I think that she just felt bad after sayin' that things. I told her that she doesn't know me at all, that there are some reason that I still talk to her after that date, and if it's worth it, I can hav a realtionship with a girl, but it's way too soon to talk stuffs like this. She said again and again " If I go out with you, it will end up bad. " I asked her why and she said " I have a feeling ". In the end she proposed to end up this talk and maybe talk for tomorrow. I was " ok, but you'll to stubborn to look out for me, and I will too. " She said "let's see wich is the one that give up " . "myeah, great" . She hang up and that's all.



I know that I was wrong so much, and now I'm wondering if I should call her tomorrow for another talk or give up, because it looks like she's not looking to go out with me, or even try that " relationship " she was talking about. I'm really confused. I don't know what do you, or when, or how.
P.S : sorry for my bad english.

 

[psheer]

Hi ac1000,

Unfortunately since you've only been on one date with this girl, and haven't slept with her, you're in the dreaded friend zone.

" If we will meet again, on the second date, or third, in the end we will have sex. And I don't want to do that with you. You're 22,you just starting life and I'm 23, finished a college and looking for something serious,for a job, I want to buy an apartment and you.. "

You shouldn't feel offended from her response. Remember how you portrayed yourself on the first date?

I kinda let her see me as a bad boy, implying that sleeping with girls fast is nothing new and hard for me,party hard every week and doing a lot of adventure and fun.

I know this may be difficult for you, but my advice for you would be to move on and forget this girl.

-psheer

 

[ac1000]

I was thinking about giving her some time to digest everything (3-4 days) , then set up a me and see.
But yeah, maybe I should drop her off

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hi ac1000,

I'll share my thoughts, with the disclaimer that I'm not the most experienced cat.

...and some kisses...

I gather she was the initiator here, but I still want to point out that you might want to avoid kissing, especially on the lips etc., at least until you have the girl in private. Kissing in public can do some bad things including (i) setting a "relationship" frame, which is really bad at least before sex has occurred, (ii) puts all your cards out on the table, which kind of kills the intrigue, and (iii) might release some of the sexual tension for her, which doesn't help you.

The only times I have ever gotten a girl home or to my bedroom or gotten to her home, there was no kissing involved beforehand.

She was telling me that she's not the type of girl that sleep with guys on the first date...

I would not be quick to believe that. But maybe she was putting you into the "boyfriend candidate" box?

One important thing you've omitted from the story was what the first date was. You want to go really casual (and easy to pull home from). Either (a) a very fancy/formal/cliché type date, and/or (b) you paying for the date, could put her into "relationship" mode.

After 24 hours I sent her a text where I asked her if she's really home alone this weekend like she said.

I'm not sure this was a good idea if you didn't have the logistics to do anything about it.

We talk a little the next whole day ( small talks )...
...
Today I asked her to call me. After a pretty good talk...

I think you are talking to her remotely way too much. This sets some seriously "relationshipey" vibes, gets rid of a lot of intrigue, is a poor form of communication, and isn't conducive to leading her into the bed. Ideally, you only want to be using the phone to arrange meets in person, especially if you've ever met in person. (I haven't gotten into on-line but appreciate you need a little more talk before the in-person meet, but once that has happened I expect it's the same.) Sometimes you can use it for a bit of banter etc. if you can't meet right away, to keep interest going. But I would totally avoid "pretty good talks" except in person!

"... You're 22,you just starting life and I'm 23, finished a college and looking for something serious,for a job, I want to buy an apartment and you.. "

This is kind of ridiculous. It reminds me of a few years back of the shit between a platonic female friend of mine (I wasn't interested in sexually) around that age range, and a guy we both knew 2 or 3 years younger than her. She'd tell me about how grown she was and how much of a kid he was, and actually called herself a "cougar"! I was substantially older than both and it just seemed dumb to me. But you know what? For as much as she acted like she was above him in maturity, he was fucking her. He was a pretty boy player. She couldn't help herself, lol.

She removed me from facebook and instagram...

I'm not so sure you should have had her on there in the first place, especially Facebook. You don't want to get into lots of electronic contact before you've even slept with her... just do the absolute minimum that is required to get her in person!!

The only good I think Facebook is, game-wise, is if you want to keep around some girls from social network (as in, you were already acquainted in real life) that you would otherwise lose contact with, and use it to keep them in the periphery to be able to get at them later. I've had that work before. (But you need to keep contact minimal until you're going to pounce, lol.) But generally I'd stay away from FB.

"... so you think that I'm a fool and I have nothing. That's fine.Have a good night "
...
...told her that she behave like a child. I was telling her that I'm closer than her to get an apartament...
...
I told her that she doesn't know me at all...
...
" ok, but you'll to stubborn to look out for me..."

This is really, really bad what is happening here: you are letting her get under your skin. You are getting emotionally invested and you are acting in a frustrated manner. Women are attracted to men who are calm and in control. So, when you express frustration like this, this is going to shred any attraction she had for you.

...because it looks like she's not looking to go out with me, or even try that " relationship " she was talking about.

It is crucial to understand that you absolutely do not want to get into a relationship before sex has occurred. I think you understand this at least to some extent, but you need to internalize it completely.

I won't go into all of the detail, but there's tons of scientific evidence showing that basically women are biologically programmed to attach themselves to a weak but stable "beta" male to utilize his resources, and then get impregnated by the more dominant, promiscuous male that she cannot control. It's hard to even get into an early relationship, because competing on "provider" qualities is usually an uphill battle, but even if you do, if you get into a relationship before you're fucking her, she will probably never really respect you as a man, and there's a very strong chance she's gonna make a cuckold of you.

My advice, and this is a long shot: don't initiate contact for a week or two, maybe even more, and then re-engage her in a really casual and outcome independent manner, pretending that all of the prior shit had never happened. Don't get chatty with her. And if she brings up anything, don't feed into it. Your sole objective here is to get her to agree to a meet and one that has good logistics to get her home. Have some good excuse to get her home which you can use once you've met and it's going well. (Or you could just try to make it at your place directly; I'm not really sure which would be best.) If she won't agree to such a meet, delete her number.

So that's my take. Hopefully if I've misread something, someone more experienced can chime in.

Phoenix

 

[ac1000]

ThePheonix, thank you for the time you spent responding me..
Yes, kisses, in private. It was just us .She took me in a place where we can see the wholewoth. Kind of a cliche, I know, but didn't had a problem with that.
The date was something like " let's have a walk. After 2 hours, gets cold and go to a cozy place where she insisted to pay everything. She was something " you will pay next time " and I reply " Who said that we are going out again ? "
I had her on facebook because I know her from there. ( In my country, this is the whole idea when it comes about dates, add on facebook. like a pic, talk, get out. It's shitty, I know )
I will take your advice, seems nice and chill and I have nothing to lose, maybe I can still learn more.
That was great, you made my night.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey ac1000,

Glad if I can help.

Yes, kisses, in private. It was just us .She took me in a place where we can see the wholewoth. Kind of a cliche, I know, but didn't had a problem with that.
The date was something like " let's have a walk. After 2 hours, gets cold and go to a cozy place where she insisted to pay everything.

This actually clarifies the situation a lot. It is a very common story. (Reading other peoples' questions, I learn just how common!) Boy meets girl. Boy and girl get friendly. Soon things get hot and heavy. But boy does not take girl as his lover right then. Girl goes cold. Gets testy and either boy doesn't see girl again or she makes herself scarce sexually.

It sounds like on the first date, her attraction peaked as things got physical. Once things have reached the point where she starts to become physically aroused, it is urgent that you seal the deal right then and there, or there is a very strong chance you will never see her again. Her emotions will fall off rapidly. She knows very well what was about to happen, and now that she is not "in the moment", her rational mind will take over and decide she can't let that happen again. Now it suddenly makes sense why she was saying this:

" If we will meet again, on the second date, or third, in the end we will have sex. ..."

She goes on:

"... And I don't want to do that with you. You're 22,you just starting life..."

It is true at this point she doesn't want to have sex with you, but the reason she gives is bullshit her conscious mind is making up. More likely the real reason she now doesn't want to, although she probably doesn't realize this herself, is that her impression of you as a dominant male has been damaged, because you were unable to make sex happen.

Personally, I think she on some level really wanted to sleep with you the first time you met. If any of the places you went were sufficiently private to have sex, you should have taken her right there. On the other hand, if it's not a good place to have sex, you should stop the escalation, I would say before you're even kissing, and move her to somewhere suitable for sex. Don't be afraid to stop her from escalation - you can use it as a chase frame!

You can try the casual approach I suggested with her, but know that when you miss a window like this it becomes really hard to fix. Concentrate on meeting new girls! It is good that you got her that far into you. It is a good lesson. Do that again with a new girl but next time don't let things get too physical until you have her somewhere you can have sex.

I had her on facebook because I know her from there. ( In my country, this is the whole idea when it comes about dates, add on facebook. like a pic, talk, get out. It's shitty, I know )

Ah, I see. FB is usually not that great I don't think, but maybe it works in your location. You got a girl on a date from it, so that is good. I don't know if you're also trying Tinder/Badoo, and day game, but the more ways you have to meet women, the better.

Cheers,
Phoenix

 

[ac1000]

Actually this was a really good lesson. Yeah, we kissed in a nice/ romantic place, then I try to move her over to my place, but she was stubborn. She was saying again and again that is not the type of girl that do this kind of thing on the first date. Some cliche. Whatever, I've learned some good stuff from this.
Kissing only in private place,pushing more to get her home, about that I shouldn't text after the date, just to call for another date, my reactions,hers.
This was nice. Indeed. Thanks

 

[ThePhoenix]

Yeah, we kissed in a nice/ romantic place, then I try to move her over to my place, but she was stubborn. She was saying again and again that is not the type of girl that do this kind of thing on the first date.

To me, this sounds like "anti-slut defense". It is an internal conflict for her. She wants sex but at once she has been socialized to view first-date sex as something that only "easy girls" or "sluts" do. Not all, but probably the large majority of women want to retain a "good girl" image. (This could get worse if you hold such beliefs yourself.)

So, you need to make sure she doesn't feel like she's being a slut. In particular, there has to be some plausible deniability about why you two are going home together. Now, on some level, she knows what's going to happen and if she goes along, she wants it, but it can't be too obvious.

This is another reason I would advise against kissing before you get her home (or wherever sex is to happen): it makes it too obvious what is going to happen.

Also, you didn't say what you said to try to get her home, but from her reactions I'm guessing maybe you didn't do enough to give her plausible deniability. If you just say, "come home with me," it is too obvious what is going to happen. Instead, it's usually better to use some excuse to get her home. This helps her to rationalize her actions in her mind. "I was just going there to see some art / listen to music / see his aquarium / play a board game / ... and then it just kind of happened." You must make sure she never feels like it's her fault.

...I shouldn't text after the date, just to call for another date...

Actually, you can use text alone to get dates. Most of the time I've gotten a girl out, the only phone call was from her right when she was near the location, asking for directions or whatever. I personally would only resort to a phone call if text is not getting you the date or if there is some complicated logistic matter to work out. Some may not agree, but this seems to be the pattern many guys use to good result. What you don't want to do, is get into long conversations, whether text or phone.

Cheers,
Phoenix

 

[ac1000]

I was pretty straight with her, that we should go to my place, and smile.. for no reasons, implying that we should just be there and have some fun. From that moment I saw her against me, saying something like " don't try anymore, I won't go with you " . But as I said, until that, I tought that I made a pretty good date, but right now I saw that I made lotta mistake.
I can't say no more than a " Thank you " for you and that you put in so much effort to respond.
Maybe I will call her after the Easter, something like. "hi hi, let's have a walk this week " , or maybe you can give me some sugestion..

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey AC,

Glad I could help.

Maybe I will call her after the Easter, something like. "hi hi, let's have a walk this week " , or maybe you can give me some sugestion..

I can't say I have any good experience with recovering from this kind of situation. I've recovered some respect from social network girls I screwed up on, but that was a slow process (like over months or several years) which consisted mainly of distancing myself from them and improving my game. But it's easier to do that with social network; I can't see it with randoms.

With that said, you could try casually proposing something simple like a walk or coffee. I might try a text first as it's lower energy, but if you're more comfortable with calling, then do that. I would leave at least a week unless she contacts you first, and then go with something like, "hey hey [name], been busy, but ..."

But in all honesty, at this point you stand far greater chances of sleeping with a new girl. I know this one might seem special to you, but if you push yourself to meet more girls, you will certainly find others that you like as much or more!

Phoenix

 

[Seppuku]

Hey ac1000,

Phoenix already gave a very good analysis. Just want to add a few thoughts.

She was telling me that she's not the type of girl that sleep with guys on the first date

It reminds me of a girl I met in 2016. Her Tinder profile was saying "Not into hookups. Looking for friendships". I met the girl, and passed all her tests. The same evening she sent me a text : "would you be so kind as to provide me with a bed for tonight?". Lol. One hour later she was in my bed screaming loud. She was a beauty, a 9 in my book (and I never gave a 10), and still one of my top memorable moments to this day. The LR is on these boards, titled "Jackie the self pulling beauty".

What this sort of message really means is "Whatever happens, happens. But if we end up in bed, it won't be my fault because I told you upfront I wasn't into hookup". She is saying this to protect her own image, in her own eyes, because she needs to know that she is a "good girl". The thing to do is to casually ignore and proceed as if you never heard it.

I would need to know how, exactly, you asked her to come home. But in a nutshell, you need to ask in a way that doesn't arouse her "hookup" alarm bells - because then she'll be back in pure defense mode. Like you experienced here, I guess. This is especially true if she had the "not into hookups" kind of language. What you would say is something like "I have such a nice music playlist at home" (or whatever similar neutral excuse), then invite her to listen to this playlist.

Yes like Phoenix said, there is a pattern that we keep seeing here again and again. You need to know that if you're getting a date with a girl and don't seal the deal right away, there's about 90 pct chance you will never see her again. It is much more productive to act like if it was the last time ever you would see her, and go all in. In short, this is your chance, go for it.

I have tried to help some guys recovering from this sort of "missed escalation window" issue, but truth is it is very hard. If you don't get your hopes too high, it is still worth trying again. Just make sure that you come across as persistent, and not chasing. The difference between both is the *neediness* that comes across your communication. You're looking for *zero* neediness.

Like Phoenix said, you're much more likely to succeed with a brand new girl though!

Seppuku

 

[ac1000]

So, it's my first time when I let her go, easy and not try again.
I was in train today, talking to a random girl about her life and dreams,when around 9PM i saw a message from the girl in case.
" what s up ?". No emoji, no smile, no " hi C", nothing. Just a simply " whats up? " or " what are you doing ?"(in my languace)
I have to admit that I was really happy to see that. I was going to respond immediatly, the I just stopped.
I was high emotion, not because I was into her , but because finally realising that letting go sometimes, can give you more things that if I would called her... I know this is not much, maybe she was bored, maybe she just need a favor or any other reasons. But it's better to know that she thinks about me.
Then I thought that if I would not respond to her message I would look butthurted, affected by the last fight and what she said to me.
I replied her after 2 hours
" I'm in my way back to home, enjoying a break. It s been a long day,hmm. How about you ? "

i think this is neutral, but not boring like " fine,you" or something like " walking, you ?". She didn t asked a great question. I m just trying too imply that I was busy and can t wait to be with myself, then turning back the question.
Now it's 3 AM and she said " I m trying to sleep " ( with a sad face ).
So, I m gonna get some sleep now for myself and maybe reply tomorrow. but I will see and wait for your help too.

 

[ThePhoenix]

I was in train today, talking to a random girl...

This is a good step. You will find as you talk to more girls, you worry about any particular one a lot less, and that is good for not conveying a needy vibe. Guys who almost never talk to random girls tend to get nervous the rare times they do, so when you've done it enough that it doesn't make you nervous, this in of itself communicates a lot to them.

Then I thought that if I would not respond to her message I would look butthurted, affected by the last fight and what she said to me.

I think that was a good call.

" what s up ?". No emoji, no smile, no " hi C", nothing. Just a simply " whats up? " or " what are you doing ?"(in my languace)

It's hard to know, especially with the translation; I'm well aware that it's hard to bring across the full nuances from phrases in other languages. But I would say that if a girl wants to know what you are doing right at this moment, there is a good chance that she may be in the mood to be seduced. But this is a fleeting chance that will probably be gone the next day.

Now it's 3 AM and she said " I m trying to sleep " ( with a sad face ).

I'm going to venture a guess that she may have wanted your help with that! But by 3am it's probably way too late. Mind you even getting that 9pm message out of nowhere, it is a bit late, depending on the logistics. Also you don't want to be too available. Getting that a little earlier in the day I would be tempted to say, "am just finishing up something and will be finished at X" and see if her reaction is positive. It is a tougher call at 9pm; I would have to defer to those more experienced.

Or she could have just been bored and wanted a chat buddy, in which case you did well to not converse extensively.

More generally, if she was just pinging you to see how you were doing, I would converse briefly, then go silent maybe 3 to 5 days depending on what works out logistically, then re-engage her and immediately put out the idea of a meet-up (nothing too formal), which should ideally be for a day within 1 to 3 days of proposing it. (But of course, these times are just a general idea.)

And as Seppuku mentioned, it's vital to convey zero neediness.

Phoenix

 

[ac1000]

I didn't even respond on the last message, and yesterday around 10PM I called her, wishing her happy hollydays. She said with a big smile " you too" .
I told her that I don't want to make this talk really long( because we usually talk on the phone like 1 hour, even more) and asked her when she will be back in town ( because everybody right now spend time with their families in their native small towns/villages), she said that is already here, because have to study for some interships, and I told her to see each other wednesday or thursday for a walk, same place, same hour. She said that can't to this wednesday/thursday, and ask if friday is good for me. I said that I would prefer thursday, but if I'm not going back home that day, friday would be fine too. Told her to have a "great night", and that was all.
So, right now I'm in a weird situation, because I don't know how to do something here. Should I took her home ? Should I be distant and waiting for her to make the move ? What now ?

 

[ThePhoenix]

I told her that I don't want to make this talk really long( because we usually talk on the phone like 1 hour, even more) and asked her when she will be back in town...

See how it was much easier to get her to agree to a date when you didn't get into long conversations?

So, right now I'm in a weird situation, because I don't know how to do something here. Should I took her home ? Should I be distant and waiting for her to make the move ? What now ?

You need to act decisively. Don't wait for her to make things happen - that's your job! She wants you to sweep her off her feet! On the date, first your aim is to get her comfortable but also build tension. So, deep dive, banter, maybe chase frame. If she tries to escalate you can chase frame her easily. Build up some touch but not to the point of making out. No kissing.

Use an innocent excuse to bring her home. If she makes objections, try to overcome them. Have it in your mind that this is the last chance you have and if you don't get her home tonight, you will probably never sleep with her.

When you have her home, make her comfortable and then escalate with her. If she resists at some point, be patient but persistent; pull back a bit, make her more comfortable, and try again. As Seppuku often says, assume that if you don't have sex with her on this visit, you will never see her again.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[dcman]

We had a great time together, good talk, good investment and feelings but I couldn t make it to get her home, even if I felt that she was attracted. ( she was flirty, slighty out of control with some body touches and some kisses ).

You made her strongly attracted to you and she is pursuing you.

S

he was telling me that she's not the type of girl that sleep with guys on the first date, impliying the fact that she only had 2 relationships, 2 sexual parteners.

You did a great job knowing her values

I kinda let her see me as a bad boy, implying that sleeping with girls fast is nothing new and hard for me,party hard every week and doing a lot of adventure and fun.

you had already built attraction by whatever you are doing earlier. I do not understand why you wanted to switch gears to present yourself as a bad boy. was her ex boy friend a bad boy or what made you go this route ? The reason she does not want to sleep on the first date could be various reasons for example she may be afraid to get pregnant , diseases or not being seen as a slut . you should have found out more why she would not do this and addressed it. Girls have different reasons for doing it so what works with one may not work with other.

I told her that she doesn't know me at all, that there are some reason that I still talk to her after that date, and if it's worth it, I can hav a realtionship with a girl, but it's way too soon to talk stuffs like this.

It is why I felt that there was no need in your date to present yourself as a bad boy.It is hard now to present a different image and makes it a challenge when things were going smoothly.

So, right now I'm in a weird situation, because I don't know how to do something here. Should I took her home ? Should I be distant and waiting for her to make the move ? What now ?

She is attracted to you and the fact you stopped pursuing her made her think twice about her judgement about you. Meet up with her but act un-attracted (no touching or talking about coming home) . This is what she will be expecting that you will push her to get in bed. But if you do otherwise it will have her wondering if you found someone or angry with her for someone reason she is not good enough for you. if she asks tell her that you have been offended and see if she is willing to make up for it. She seems attracted to you so my 2 cents are act cool maintain your high value status and have her pursuing you.