Bring On The Fugly Bitches

[mist]

Hello friends! Been awhile .

I've been kicking it in the chat and reflecting on sticking points, skill acquisition, my many failures, and fantasizing about the seducer I hope to become.

The topic of this thread is asking for input on taking a "Fuck Anything That Moves" approach to flatten the learning curve and eventually have the skillset to more consistently seduce in general. It is my belief that in turn this ups your odds with women you actually want and infield unattractive women have aided me even though I didn't want them.

The things I want out of seduction

1. Freedom
2. Options
3. Adventure
4. Attractive and quality women along the way.
5. Frame Control

I'm inspired by these for anyone curious.

1. https://www.girlschase.com/content/lower-your-standards-and-date-hotter-girls
2. https://www.girlschase.com/content/you-really-should-be-having-sex
3. https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-figure-out-your-standards-hookups-and-flings
4. https://www.girlschase.com/content/if-you-re-male-virgin-should-you-tell-her-or-not
5. https://www.goodlookingloser.com/la...enced-guys-need-to-approach-the-next-365-days
6.

7. https://www.girlschase.com/content/100-hour-rule

I'll come back and elaborate if this gets some input, questions, concerns.

My Viewpoint summarized.
(I will add I am speaking cold approach and very periphery social circle. Not going for unattractive women in main circle or online as I see little benefit learning pickup from that.)

1. Flattens the learning curve for skill acquisition, mastery oriented approach, and eliminating dry spells.

2. Experience is good in the longterm.

3. Seduction and Influence are a skill. Even with unattractive women game is still present. Attention, immersion, social frame, sexual escalation, emotional stimulation, VAC, opening, hook, isolation, extraction, close, framing... etc it's all there and she's a woman with a pussy and perspective. Even if I am not attracted to her or even slightly disgusted by her I can still improve these things.

4. Pussy at the end of the day is great for momentum bolstering and maintenance, experience is awesome, and women less attractive or unattractive to you are opportunities for experimentation and refinement both in bed and out.

5. The man who racks up experience, data points, and knowhow will have a higher shot getting the girls he really wants in the long run.

6. You'll become more free as a seducer the sooner sex and hookups aren't a big deal and isn't viewed from a normal guys lens of sex=relationship and deep investment

7. This does not hurt you. Unattractive pussy does not kill you in the long run and damn you to no attractive women.

8. Playerdom comes at a price and the sooner you start operating like one, even if with unattractive women for awhile, the better you'll be with all women and the easier your admission.

9. It'll toughen you up mentally and liberate you sexually.

10. If you're not getting laid and you're learning pickup and seduction you are wasting your time. Better to start with unattractive women AND attractive women and get your feet wet with a variety than to hole up in your standards and hampering the speed of your success. Even if your standards are "reasonable" I believe if you dropped them further you'll be better off in the long run and short run.

Counterviews I've ran into in chat

1. You always want to practice how you want to play.

2. You can find your baseline of attractiveness, that HB baseline, and you’ll find that there are plenty of attractive girls at or above it. And you can definitely get those and keep working on getting those - it just doesn’t have to be an unnecessarily linear process where you start with ugly girls and finally get to girls you find attractive. You can start with girls like, even if they’re on the lower end of your HB baseline, or maybe they’re even on the higher end. Things are much more fluid in the field than what some say.

3. Banging girls you don’t like as a beginner is a false rite of passage in the community

4. “lowering your standards” is really just most useful if the seducer has a fucked up baseline of what they find attractive, such as if they only find plastic Insta girls as attractive or some other hijacked perspective not based on empiricism

5. "lay the 4s to lay the 10s.” It can happen that way, but…. the quickest way to lay the girls you want is to approach the girls you want and you’ll see that there’s no need to sacrifice quality if you keep refining on your process

6. if you take the mastery-oriented approach, keep gaining experience and getting better and better through refinement, and dedicate yourself to understanding how female sexual psychology works… there’s no reason why you can’t be fucking girls you like, and you’ll see why it’s looney to specifically target “ugly” girls when girls you like may be more of an appropriate target based on a social frame level anyway

6.5. i mean we’re here to fuck girls we like. to fuck ugly chicks you probably won’t need any of this. BUT on the other hand women are women and experience is experience…
(He sort of agrees but kinda not.)

7. "Obviously, do not bang women you find disgusting or not attractive at all. As long as she is doable – go for it. Think of it this way: in a scenario where you’d both be naked and she would touch your dick and make you hard… would you bang her? If the answer is yes, then go for it. If not, move on." From article SB posted
(A quote used from an article...not sure which one)

8. Lowering your standards is recommended to get some experience,but I don't think to the point where you bang anybody with a vag.

9. it's your decision at the end of the day brodie just know that you risk emotionally attaching yourself to the 1st girl u hookup with.if she is a fugly bitch ur body and brain won't tell the difference or care

10. i mean why do it in the first place? you're not gonna feel good about yourself afterwards if you bang a hog that you are repulsed by

11. mist ik u want sexual experience,but I wouldn't say you have to dumpster dive just to get it

(Counterpoints provided by Lofty, Train, Starboy, and Gaturro)

My Plea

I am dead serious about troll/whale hunting, dumpster diving, and or dating down or whatever you want to call it to level me up. I know I used a very clickbait and goofy title, but I am 200% real in my perspective. I want to flatten my learning curve, boost momentum, build skill, and break out of being a beginner. If you must troll or joke, as admittedly this is sort of a funny idea, I ask you do not just leave it at that.

Also, If you have any questions before you feel confident addressing me scraping the "bottom" of the Sexual Marketplace shoot. I'm quarantined, so I can reply before life gets crazy and I adopt or discard the mentality of

"Bring On The Fugly Bitches"

For a period of atleast 100 hours.

Thank you for you time and consideration.

 

[Will_V]

The only thing I would say is that just because a woman is ugly, don't expect her to be easy. Many ugly women are highly defensive generally and laser-focused on 'hypergamy' almost like a survival skill, and they need to be.

In my experience, the less 'traditional' SMV (or status) someone has, the more they value 'traditional' SMV (or status) in someone else, the same way someone who is poor might idolize someone who is rich and nothing besides, but someone who is rich probably idolizes someone who has cracked an entirely different aspect of personal success that they haven't. My harshest rejections and highest suspicion always comes from relatively plain women.

There is also the fact that authentic desire is contagious, and women are quite well aware of when they turn a man on.

All that being said my suggestion is, if you have to go this route, focus on at least one baseline aspect you like (for example for me latinas tend to have a baseline sex appeal and personality appeal that other women don't always have) to give yourself something attractive to validate the interaction on, and stay away from women that actually turn you off (you don't want to end up with PTSD!).

Best of luck!

 

[topcat]

It’s worked for me. Basically any date/girl anxiety i have is gone, and it’s super easy for me to connect to/relax around most girls now.

I’ve fucked one shy of a hundred at this point, and best believe there are a handful of fatties and snaggle tooth’s in their (deffo not the majority).

I’d say it depends on your personality.

If you can focus on the pleasure (many of these girls made a big effort to see me, so i rewarded them with orgasms) and you know it won’t affect your self esteem - go for it.

It also kills a lot of the premature pickiness, and pedestalizing i see in some newbies (pedestalizing of their ideal women and themselves).

And it allows you to see very early on how women that really like you behave, what it feels like to be chased.

I did it, and i’m better for it. Leveled me up way faster..

 

[mist]

It’s worked for me. Basically any date/girl anxiety i have is gone, and it’s super easy for me to connect to/relax around most girls now.

I’ve fucked one shy of a hundred at this point, and best believe there are a handful of fatties and snaggle tooth’s in their (deffo not the majority).

I’d say it depends on your personality.

If you can focus on the pleasure (many of these girls made a big effort to see me, so i rewarded them with orgasms) and you know it won’t affect your self esteem - go for it.

It also kills a lot of the premature pickiness, and pedestalizing i see in some newbies (pedestalizing of their ideal women and themselves).

And it allows you to see very early on how women that really like you behave, what it feels like to be chased.

I did it, and i’m better for it. Leveled me up way faster..

That's dope thank you for adding your perspective. Shoutout to the fatties and snuggle tooth that kept your momentum up and your dick wet haha.

The only thing I would say is that just because a woman is ugly, don't expect her to be easy. Many ugly women are highly defensive generally and laser-focused on 'hypergamy' almost like a survival skill, and they need to be.

In my experience, the less 'traditional' SMV (or status) someone has, the more they value 'traditional' SMV (or status) in someone else, the same way someone who is poor might idolize someone who is rich and nothing besides, but someone who is rich probably idolizes someone who has cracked an entirely different aspect of personal success that they haven't. My harshest rejections and highest suspicion always comes from relatively plain women.

There is also the fact that authentic desire is contagious, and women are quite well aware of when they turn a man on.

I always appreciate reading your shit Will V thanks man. This also matches my field experience.

Also I appreciate the free game man!

stay away from women that actually turn you off (you don't want to end up with PTSD!).

Could it really be that damaging? If I perhaps can't even pull off the "one nice feature trick" how damaging could sex with a woman who turns me off or disgusts me occasionally really be?

It won't be forever by any means.

I mean if the outcome is a higher likelihood for the rest of my life with girls exceeding my baseline what can a little sex with people I'm repelled by really do to hurt that?

This post is me being open to even women I'm repulsed by.

Those women are also apart of what I mean when I'm saying "Bring On The Fugly Bitches" "Fuck Anything That Moves" to lower the curve, bolster momentum, and raise skill.

Anyone have comments on this?

 

[Tim Iron]

100% true in my opinion. You learn a lot faster with this approach!

 

[Will_V]

That's dope thank you for adding your perspective. Shoutout to the fatties and snuggle tooth that kept your momentum up and your dick wet haha.

I always appreciate reading your shit Will V thanks man. This also matches my field experience.

Also I appreciate the free game man!

Could it really be that damaging? If I perhaps can't even pull off the "one nice feature trick" how damaging could sex with a woman who turns me off or disgusts me occasionally really be?

It won't be forever by any means.

I mean if the outcome is a higher likelihood for the rest of my life with girls exceeding my baseline what can a little sex with people I'm repelled by really do to hurt that?

This post is me being open to even women I'm repulsed by.

Those women are also apart of what I mean when I'm saying "Bring On The Fugly Bitches" "Fuck Anything That Moves" to lower the curve, bolster momentum, and raise skill.

Anyone have comments on this?

OK well I don't want to scare you but the reality is that there is a non-zero chance of knocking a woman up when you have sex. Each man has to determine his risk threshold. I personally like to face problems before they occur, and I have a pretty good idea of what I'm willing to risk.

For me, I'm not willing to have sex with a girl I don't like, period. She doesn't have to be a goddess, but I have to enjoy the look of her and being around her. There's two reasons for this: 1) for me (and everyone's different) I'd rather be alone than banging a woman I don't like, I simply don't need women that much, and the intimate dance of seduction, playing with her in bed and exploring her is something special that I can't have with someone I don't like. And 2) I do not want to be ashamed of any kid that I sire, I want to be able to look them in the face and think "yeah I made you and I don't regret it" regardless of what happens between me and the mother.

It's a bit of a balancing act, you don't want to be too careful that you don't enjoy yourself and have a variety of experiences, but I believe having standards and a knowledge of what you can face and accept is essential to the kind of psychological development that gets you closer to where you really need to go.

That's my take, again everyone's different, I don't judge someone for having fun within their own standards, but it's just not good to sacrifice something that's valuable to you for a bit of average pussy.

 

[mist]

OK well I don't want to scare you but the reality is that there is a non-zero chance of knocking a woman up when you have sex. Each man has to determine his risk threshold. I personally like to face problems before they occur, and I have a pretty good idea of what I'm willing to risk.

For me, I'm not willing to have sex with a girl I don't like, period. She doesn't have to be a goddess, but I have to enjoy the look of her and being around her. There's two reasons for this: 1) for me (and everyone's different) I'd rather be alone than banging a woman I don't like, I simply don't need women that much, and the intimate dance of seduction, playing with her in bed and exploring her is something special that I can't have with someone I don't like. And 2) I do not want to be ashamed of any kid that I sire, I want to be able to look them in the face and think "yeah I made you and I don't regret it" regardless of what happens between me and the mother.

It's a bit of a balancing act, you don't want to be too careful that you don't enjoy yourself and have a variety of experiences, but I believe having standards and a knowledge of what you can face and accept is essential to the kind of psychological development that gets you closer to where you really need to go.

That's my take, again everyone's different, I don't judge someone for having fun within their own standards, but it's just not good to sacrifice something that's valuable to you for a bit of average pussy.

Respect.

This was a very personal take so I have no arguments or points as you've already read mine. I appreciate that section about having kids with a woman you're repulsed by. I have no clue what I'd do so I won't even bother speculating how I'd react or the ramifications.

This is where I am at in my perspective currently

1. I don't have anything special yet, I want to get to the fun and the intimate dance of seduction as well, and I do not want to rely on luck and patience nor do I want to be at the whim of wildcards with no say, little skill, low confidence, and low experience as a response. Maybe I'll find that I really can't do it as well and have to find another way to flatten my curve or maybe I'll prevail and finally have my dream come before the sun.

2. I'm not sure yet. I'm envisioning being infield and pulling an unattractive or repulsive woman right now, but it hasn't been done yet. I'll only have my answer then. The potential hypothetical pregnancy afterwards...I also have no clue what'd I do. There's a lot I don't know that's why I'm increasingly not ok with leaving "any" pussy on the table. Especially if there's the possibility that in the end I get high quality and beautiful women so much more consistently and efficiently. There's a lot I don't know. I want to do something about that...even if the women are repulsive for awhile occasionally. Pussy is the magic bullet to more pussy from my understanding. No if, ands, or buts in my world. Pussy is the answer to seduction and pickup as a skillset. Any pussy on the table is a loss for a man trying to develop game.

thank you for your input and this is just how I'm seeing things. Not a teardown of your position as again this was more personal, preferential, and dealing with how seduction is utilized and valued in your life.

I might be soon for your position Will_V... after "Bring On The Fugly Bitches" "Fuck Anything That Moves" and understand the

intimate dance of seduction

This hits me as well

I believe having standards and a knowledge of what you can face and accept is essential to the kind of psychological development that gets you closer to where you really need to go.

Definitely interested in what other's think of this as well.

In all honesty I have no interest in being me or upholding my standards, ego, self esteem. I want freedom and to surpass my limits in order to truly breakthrough. I want adaptability, frame control and manipulation towards my ends.

If I'm in my own way I want to get out of my own way.

You always get me thinking haha.

Your post Living In A Hostile Society is something that comes up for me as well.

"The Top And Bottom Are Similar, But It's Better To Be At The Top"

but it's just not good to sacrifice something that's valuable to you for a bit of average pussy.

I'm making no sacrifice. I have nothing and that average pussy and or below average pussy changes that. Increases my likelihood that I can truly have a shot and can hold that position at the top.

At the mountaintop surrounded by attractive and quality women haha.

Consistently...at the top...after a firm base has been built.

What a dream?

And that's unacceptable to me. Going forward dreaming...when I could change quite a bit even with a repulsive woman.

This is my perspective and take on what you've brought up.

Really got me thinking like goddamn. Haven't thought this hard in forever. You're awesome Brodie

 

[Lover]

There is also the fact that authentic desire is contagious, and women are quite well aware of when they turn a man on.

I want to emphasize this part. I know some girls from my past hated I could leave them "just like that". These were girls I would keep as a fwb's. But despite the good sex, which I would do regardless, I just wasn't completely attracted to and hooked on these girls. Maybe something about their looks, personality or way of handling themselves. And to be honest, I hate that about myself too. Why was I giving these women the time of their lives when I was not satisfied? Well, scarcity, boredom and wanting to perform better. And not knowing how to reject girls. But eventually I felt a little dissatisfaction each time I let a load of my seeds hit a girl I wasn't attracted to, over and over. And now we're here.

I'm not complaining about my past motivations and insecurities, it's just the way of things.

These days I don't feel like consistently fucking a girl I'm not attracted to. For a one time thing it may be different but there is a risk you may want to see her again.

My point is everything's a learning curve. Experiment all you want, the way you want. You can change things later if you're not satisfied.

 

[Will_V]

But eventually I felt a little dissatisfaction each time I let a load of my seeds hit a girl I wasn't attracted to, over and over. And now we're here.

Absolutely, what I love about seduction is the fact that raw desire can overcome everything, whether it's social norms, inhibitions, beliefs, it can dissolve all that in the time it takes to walk from the park to the apartment. That a sexy girl can be walking around all weighed down by her social armor, and an hour later be bent over taking the best dick of her life from a man offering nothing but appreciation of her femininity. If that desire, that drive to possess is not there, it just feels wrong to me.

 

[Lofty]

Again, what I was really saying in the chat is just because you haven’t gotten the results you want yet… it doesn’t mean that you’re not capable of getting with girls you like sooner than you think. And it also doesn’t mean that you totally have to get with girls you don’t like in order to get the ones you do like. That’s what’s not linear about this kind of development.

And like Will_V was saying, the girls you’re thinking of may or may not necessarily be “easier.” Each girl brings something different to the table… calibrate and perceive each one individually and you’ll see what he’s saying. This is also related to what I was telling you about how it makes little sense to specifically target “ugly” girls.

Maybe the really hot, sexually liberated college girl may lead to a smoother overall process for you as a beginner than the overweight virgin from a conservative background. Moreover, remember the section in SMMA about how the core of female sexual psychology works. At a social frame level, there ARE women who you’ll have a bit of a headstart with anyway. These women may or may not be attractive to you - it really just depends but definitely don’t limit yourself to thinking only the “ugly” girls will be receptive to you from the get-go.

And also like Dreamer was telling you before, really try to make sure you’re not putting the cart before the horse. Remember, your journey is still in the very beginning stages. You’ve developed a process-oriented mentality and while the field can be tough as a beginner at times (we’ve all been there), make sure you’re not letting yourself jump to conclusions here and slipping into a result-oriented mentality.

Seduction doesn’t work like Approach girl > fuck her/don’t fuck her. You know this!

Instead of thinking like fuck hot/fuck ugly, I really encourage you to continue thinking more in the transition phases:

• Approach to Hook-Point
• Hook-Point to Date or Hook-Point to Isolation
• Date to Pull or Isolation to Pull
• Pull to Sex

And there you’ll be able to attack your sticking points very quickly, see them in high resolution, and address why you’re not getting the results you want while accelerating your progress quickly. So if that means opening more sets so you can dedicatedly practice your hooking, sure, go for it. If it means immersing that one girl who’s nice but doesn’t get your dick hard, sure, go for it, get that work in. But take these things at a fieldwork-level because you can never predict what opportunities may come your way, and with this in mind it seems reasonable to be working on these things with girls you do like instead of girls you don’t like whenever possible.

Each person’s path is different, and you’ve seen how some guys here talk about how getting more experience with girls of various types really helped them. And that’s great. See what helps you - not one of us grows exactly the same way. But remember they’re still talking about a process here and just because a woman isn’t as sightly as others, she’s not going to necessarily hand over her body to you.

Lastly, I also encourage you to consider why you’re framing girls as “fugly bitches” - this is a very negative lens, actually a very disrespectful one, and perhaps even indicative of a larger point about your current worldview. What type of experience do you think you’ll create for a woman if you view her as a “fugly bitch”? How do you think viewing her as a “fugly bitch” will affect how you seduce her? If you view certain women as “fugly bitches,” how might that impact how you interact with women at large?

On the other end of the spectrum, what type of girls are considered “hot”? Is that baseline created from Insta models with tons of filters and pornstars with tons of lip filler? Or is it based on women in the real world? This is a challenge we all see lots of people facing nowadays. Things to think about and maybe reflect on.

Now there’s a lot of material on the subject of “lowering your standards” and the guys here added more great input to all of this. But I suspect the sticking points you’re facing aren’t necessarily just related to the aesthetic quality of the girl.

When you think back on this day years from now, I think you’ll know exactly what I mean, and maybe you do already.

 

[Will_V]

Respect.

This was a very personal take so I have no arguments or points as you've already read mine. I appreciate that section about having kids with a woman you're repulsed by. I have no clue what I'd do so I won't even bother speculating how I'd react or the ramifications.

This is where I am at in my perspective currently

1. I don't have anything special yet, I want to get to the fun and the intimate dance of seduction as well, and I do not want to rely on luck and patience nor do I want to be at the whim of wildcards with no say, little skill, low confidence, and low experience as a response. Maybe I'll find that I really can't do it as well and have to find another way to flatten my curve or maybe I'll prevail and finally have my dream come before the sun.

Well the way I look at it is that there are a lot of good looking women around and nothing stopping you from approaching them. You don't have to necessarily aim for anything low, just operate from a perspective of:

1. There are guys doing this, so I can do it too.

2. If something goes wrong, whether I know it or not, I didn't do something right, and I can fix that.

3. I am doing this to develop as a man, to develop my love and admiration for women and my capability to fulfill them, and any step that takes me along that journey, rejection or otherwise, is a step toward my goal.

When I started daygame, tbh, I didn't do it thinking about how I'd bang. I did it for myself, for self-expression. It hurts me to see a pretty girl walk past not knowing how much I appreciate her femininity. I savor the moments standing in front of her, with her wide eyes filled with my presence as I reflect her beauty back to her, watching her fall under my spell. Even when it doesn't work out I walk away smiling to myself, hoping I never forget the moments I spent with her that would never have otherwise occurred.

That's why I don't see it as work, or a burden. For me showing women that I enjoy them is part of how I express myself, like the style of my clothes or the tone of my voice. I would do it even if I didn't have a dick to bang with. Women seduce me more than anything else.

When it's like that, I gotta say the idea of approaching a land whale to rack up the numbers just doesn't figure.

2. I'm not sure yet. I'm envisioning being infield and pulling an unattractive or repulsive woman right now, but it hasn't been done yet. I'll only have my answer then. The potential hypothetical pregnancy afterwards...I also have no clue what'd I do. There's a lot I don't know that's why I'm increasingly not ok with leaving "any" pussy on the table. Especially if there's the possibility that in the end I get high quality and beautiful women so much more consistently and efficiently. There's a lot I don't know. I want to do something about that...even if the women are repulsive for awhile occasionally. Pussy is the magic bullet to more pussy from my understanding. No if, ands, or buts in my world. Pussy is the answer to seduction and pickup as a skillset. Any pussy on the table is a loss for a man trying to develop game.

Experience is absolutely essential, I 100% agree. But bad habits can develop quickly when one operates from the wrong perspective, that's all I'm saying. When the right reason is under everything (i.e. she's sexy and I want to fuck her) it is only a matter of time.

thank you for your input and this is just how I'm seeing things. Not a teardown of your position as again this was more personal, preferential, and dealing with how seduction is utilized and valued in your life.

I might be soon for your position Will_V... after "Bring On The Fugly Bitches" "Fuck Anything That Moves" and understand the


This hits me as well

Definitely interested in what other's think of this as well.

In all honesty I have no interest in being me or upholding my standards, ego, self esteem. I want freedom and to surpass my limits in order to truly breakthrough. I want adaptability, frame control and manipulation towards my ends.

If I'm in my own way I want to get out of my own way.

You always get me thinking haha.

Your post Living In A Hostile Society is something that comes up for me as well.

"The Top And Bottom Are Similar, But It's Better To Be At The Top"


I'm making no sacrifice. I have nothing and that average pussy and or below average pussy changes that. Increases my likelihood that I can truly have a shot and can hold that position at the top.

At the mountaintop surrounded by attractive and quality women haha.

Consistently...at the top...after a firm base has been built.

What a dream?

And that's unacceptable to me. Going forward dreaming...when I could change quite a bit even with a repulsive woman.

This is my perspective and take on what you've brought up.

Really got me thinking like goddamn. Haven't thought this hard in forever. You're awesome Brodie

All you need to do is put in the work and improve one thing at a time, constantly taking small risks to receive new feedback and adjusting accordingly, and you'll eventually get anywhere you want.

 

[sab]

@Will_V. Wow . So eloquent and could not said it better myself. Your knack of expressing and clarifying seduction ideas is amazing.

 

[Will_V]

Instead of thinking like fuck hot/fuck ugly, I really encourage you to continue thinking more in the transition phases:

• Approach to Hook-Point
• Hook-Point to Date or Hook-Point to Isolation
• Date to Pull or Isolation to Pull
• Pull to Sex

And there you’ll be able to attack your sticking points very quickly, see them in high resolution, and address why you’re not getting the results you want while accelerating your progress quickly. So if that means opening more sets so you can dedicatedly practice your hooking, sure, go for it. If it means immersing that one girl who’s nice but doesn’t get your dick hard, sure, go for it, get that work in. But take these things at a fieldwork-level because you can never predict what opportunities may come your way.

Great post. Work through things move by move, rather than continuing with the same bad habit (trying to pull it all off at once) with a lower target.

 

[XO!]

There are many problems with gaming girls you don't like, almost all of which centers around attainability issues.

As discussed previously in this thread, girls can very much tell the difference between a man who is genuinely attracted to them vs. a man who isn't. Unless you're a psychopath, it'll be very difficult to fake this.

There is an exception here: if intellectually you know a girl is ugly, but emotionally you're attracted to her anyway, you'll necessarily run your game as you would for any other girl you're genuinely attracted to, rendering this problem moot. But since we're talking about girls YOU consider fugly, I'll assume you're talking about girls YOU don't like but are fucking solely for the sake of gaining XP.

​

1) Ugly girls are often harder to game.​

As Hector once told me, genuine attraction often overcomes shitty game.

You can be the slickest playboy around, but if she doesn't like you and/or she thinks/knows you don't actually like her she won't be receptive to your advances. In the latter case, she'll be highly prone to auto-rejection, often very harshly. Remember, a woman's bad behavior is often defensive in nature. It is for this reason I, along with many other fledgling seducers, have found that ugly girls are legitimately harder to game on almost every front, and this becomes all the more true the more you level up as a seducer and a man. They're pricklier, more petulant, and less graceful in comparison to their, ahem, more blessed sisters. Ironically enough, you may also find that many of these girls are highly narcissistic, and this may be necessary to buttress a fragile ego. The current dating/political landscape pushes this to toxic heights: because she's an independent queen that deserves no less than the very best, but also too because she needs to actively justify this frame early and often because it's a flimsy one that'll be hard for her to buy into, she'll be shit-testing you hardcore at almost comically cartoonish levels. If you haven't met this girl IRL (fat girls at the club, anyone?), you'll see her capping on social media, signalling how valuable and desirable she is by how hard she has to reject all these hordes of thirsty guys who totally want her. She's the type to ask you how much money you make as soon as you meet her, because that's what bad bitches are supposed to do. Not that all ugly girls are like this, but there certainly are enough to make it not worth imo.

In any case, even if she's well-behaved you'll have to work overtime to close the "value gap" between you two in addition to having to face the usual challenges that you'll face in any attempted seduction. The bigger the gap, the harder you'll have to work. Having to manage her emotions in this manner takes more game to pull off beyond a certain point. And it'll be harder, because you'll be less motivated to work hard, because she's ugly lol. Believe me, even if you're highly motivated by your overarching goal to become a Skilled Seducer it'll be harder to draw upon this energy in real time, time after time again. You'll try less. You'll care less. You'll be less resilient to her bullshit. The sex will be worse, and you won't care that much. The easy out will always be "it's whatever, I got the lay and she was ugly / I didn't like her that much anyway."

2) It's emotionally trying for everyone involved.​

They know you don't actually like them, that you're just there to use them as your latest slam-piece. If they don't know that in the beginning then they will at the end.

Many of us had a "nice guy" phase where we spent way too much time in the friend zone. Do you look back fondly on those days? Was it fun? Did you enjoy expending massive amounts of time, effort, and sometimes money chasing, investing, holding out hope for something that never came? Did you feel empowered when you were the shoulder to cry on, when you listened to her talk about the guys she respected, the guys she lusted after, the guys she fucked on? Didn't you feel like you wasted your time, like you were being used? It's the same feeling with girls, except worse. At least men have the clarity of being stuck very clearly in the friend zone. But with girls who are fucking guys who don't like them, what "zone" are they in? Friends with benefits? This is an inherently volatile grey area that often has great promise to evolve into a proper relationship. And since relationships of all types tend not to move backwards once a precedent is set, girls can't be blamed for getting their hopes up. Don't think ONSs will solve this issue - on some level you still have to seduce her to fuck her, and depending on what type of game you run you'll end up spiking all sorts of lovey-dovey emotions in her, even if just for a night. When it crashes, it burns. That feeling of worthlessness, that you're just something to be used up and discarded, lends itself all to well to vindictiveness. On the extreme end, "he just used me for sex" can so easily turn into "he raped me." It's a much smaller jump than many may realize, and imo this is one of the Big Three of false rape accusations.

Funny thing is, gaming ugly girls can be just as hard on us guys. As Hector talked about in the article linked above, getting wrecked by girls you consider to be busted as fuck is a great and surefire way to obliterate an underdeveloped ego. Even when it works out, it doesn't.

The girl I lost my virginity to was heinously fat and ugly, and the second had a literal lazy eye. I was not proud of these lays, I was ashamed. I was a late bloomer who struggled greatly with women and had no XP prior to finding GirlsChase. Working hard to get these lays did nothing to soothe my low self-esteem. "Why am I so fucking lame? Is this really the best I can do? Am I so unlovable and unattractive that only the girls no one else wanted would want me?" The first girl told me I was I was really cute. As it'd turn out, many people, not just girls, felt this way about me. But I couldn't believe her. Sure, I had serious self-esteem issues, but since she was ugly as fuck her opinion literally mattered less lol.

3) You don't have to be perfect; there is no direct correlation between "value", which is highly subjective and contextual, and "success" in pickup.​

You don't have to be perfect. Many of us make the mistake of thinking "I failed because I'm not good enough, I gotta increase my SMV".

Side note: I don't know how far along you are into your seduction journey, but for any true beginner reading this, understand that you'll likely begin to have attainability problems much sooner than you may realize.

But beyond basic pickup proficiency it often comes down to trust. Ego threats are just as real as physical threats, which are just as real as social threats. He's cute, BUT. If I want him to, will he stick around? If I don't want him to, will he get needy? Is he not crazy or a rapist or something? Does he actually like me? Is this someone I can bring home to Mom? Is this someone who I can bring around my friends? Depending on what she's looking for you'll be vetted on all kinds of things that have little to do with how Chadly you are.

tl;dr​

Personally, I've made it a hard rule to not to approach girls I'm not attracted to. It's just harder and less rewarding. Something that no one has mentioned yet:

How is your process?​

How many girls do you approach daily? Per week? Are you cross-gaming? If the goal is to level up faster your energy should be directed to refining your process moreso than anything else.

 

[focus]

There are many problems with gaming girls you don't like, almost all of which centers around attainability issues.

I understand what you're saying in your post but just to be clear, the first half of the article you linked actually recommends gaming chicks you don't find all that attractive while you're still under 50 lays. Exceptions being on women you are actually repulsed by.

 

[mist]

I want to emphasize this part. I know some girls from my past hated I could leave them "just like that". These were girls I would keep as a fwb's. But despite the good sex, which I would do regardless, I just wasn't completely attracted to and hooked on these girls. Maybe something about their looks, personality or way of handling themselves. And to be honest, I hate that about myself too. Why was I giving these women the time of their lives when I was not satisfied? Well, scarcity, boredom and wanting to perform better. And not knowing how to reject girls. But eventually I felt a little dissatisfaction each time I let a load of my seeds hit a girl I wasn't attracted to, over and over. And now we're here.

Thanks for the perspective Lover. It's interesting how you say even though you were fucking many women and had but still that you still felt scarcity.

Was this due to your motivations as a seducer and having already used unnattractive women for enough momentum and practice you really wanted quality and consistency up?

I've never personally had an issue rejecting women, so that's interesting as well. Maybe a little too giving with my time, but to end up with an unattractive woman or person due to being unable to reject... not really.

These days I don't feel like consistently fucking a girl I'm not attracted to. For a one time thing it may be different but there is a risk you may want to see her again.

My point is everything's a learning curve. Experiment all you want, the way you want. You can change things later if you're not satisfied.

It doesn't seem you deny that the experience has given you the option to avoid dry spells build momentum, and improve your game.

I appreciate your acknowledgement at the end.

I see no problem personally of wanting to see her again...see them again. The very reason this is a thing in my mind is to nullify the scarcity and SEX=INVESTMENT LOVE ONITIS with no say and or options.

You're on a different part of the learning curve than me I appreciate the last sentence. I'll come back to it in momentarily after I write about these new posts in this thread.

(Thanks for popping by and to those who've written in their points, counterpoints, and perspective. Part 2 coming very soon as there were some awesome things added.)

 

[mist]

Ok this is

Bring On The Fugly Bitches Cont.​

It's your choice which reply you read.

Spoiler: To Will_V or Not To Will_V?

1. @Will_V

Section A.

Absolutely, what I love about seduction is the fact that raw desire can overcome everything, whether it's social norms, inhibitions, beliefs, it can dissolve all that in the time it takes to walk from the park to the apartment. That a sexy girl can be walking around all weighed down by her social armor, and an hour later be bent over taking the best dick of her life from a man offering nothing but appreciation of her femininity. If that desire, that drive to possess is not there, it just feels wrong to me.

This is more of a preferential and personal thing, but is not irrelevant by any means due to motivation concerns brought up by my assertion.

There are 3 claims here

1. Raw desire can overcome everything
2. This can be achieved with attractive and alluring women with nothing but appreciation for her femininity.
3. If that desire, that drive to possess is not there, it just feels wrong to me

My takes

1. Agree. I'm after learning the mechanics of seduction, pickup, and influence. There is a real art to the process though. I'm not fool to not notice this and I too enjoy this and have no plans of discarding women I feel that raw desire with. I will note that I've also been infield where desire prevailed and when it hasn’t. I have come to conclude desire is not enough. It's magical and I will not stop pursuing those I desire, but raw desire overcomes all up against my field experience currently just does not match. You are more experienced though so I'm not eliminating that factor at all...gee I wonder how I could bridge the gap and one day say "Raw desire can overcome everything". Probably with more seduction and fucking.

2. Agree. Human courtship is big and the ways to skin a goat are big. I will note that there is still a process behind the art. Creating this experience takes many components.

3. This is your preference and a personal stance. Maybe eventually when I'm experienced and can really work all my options and leads I'll hold this as well. Currently I cannot so I'm hurting myself and missing out on growth you've most likely been through if I adopt this.

Section B.

Well the way I look at it is that there are a lot of good looking women around and nothing stopping you from approaching them. You don't have to necessarily aim for anything low, just operate from a perspective of:

1. There are guys doing this, so I can do it too.

2. If something goes wrong, whether I know it or not, I didn't do something right, and I can fix that.

3. I am doing this to develop as a man, to develop my love and admiration for women and my capability to fulfill them, and any step that takes me along that journey, rejection or otherwise, is a step toward my goal.

I agree. I'm not going to stop adding women I really fucking enjoy to my leads nor do I believe for everyone the approach of giving every pussy the time of day and even learning to pursue pussy with women you don't feel deep connection, are unattracted to, and or even repulsed by. My assertion is that this pussy is very available as well and will level you up just the same if that cutie has horrible logistic, you strikeout with all the leads you like, and or she is the most compliant and you're low experience trying to level up etc. All sorts of benefits in my view.

1. Yessir.

2. 100% man.

3. YES YES YES.

Point 3 is even more why I'm on this train and looking for it liberate me and my learning curve.

When I started daygame, tbh, I didn't do it thinking about how I'd bang. I did it for myself, for self-expression. It hurts me to see a pretty girl walk past not knowing how much I appreciate her femininity. I savor the moments standing in front of her, with her wide eyes filled with my presence as I reflect her beauty back to her, watching her fall under my spell. Even when it doesn't work out I walk away smiling to myself, hoping I never forget the moments I spent with her that would never have otherwise occurred.

That's why I don't see it as work, or a burden. For me showing women that I enjoy them is part of how I express myself, like the style of my clothes or the tone of my voice. I would do it even if I didn't have a dick to bang with. Women seduce me more than anything else.

When it's like that, I gotta say the idea of approaching a land whale to rack up the numbers just doesn't figure.

That's beautiful man. Sometimes I feel that too sort of.

This currently is fun at times, work at others, and also a burden. I find expression through my art and even there it is not always an enjoyable, special, or particularly relaxing thing. Consistency is the end all. Regardless of state. Some days I love it other days I want to die but if I keep on trying life is sweet or returns back to regular. For every light there is a shadow for every peak there is a valley and with time everything returns back to meh. Decisions build futures. I’m not looking at my emotions for guidance. I’m looking for process primarily. And what better process in seduction than attaining pussy. Even if it's land whale pussy. Still can be gamed to bed and used to experiment your sex skills.

Experience is absolutely essential, I 100% agree. But bad habits can develop quickly when one operates from the wrong perspective, that's all I'm saying. When the right reason is under everything (i.e. she's sexy and I want to fuck her) it is only a matter of time.

I’m not going to easy way out. I’m opening up my options to include not just plain or slightly below plain but what you may consider as ugly and repulsive in order to completely flatten the curve and sooner than most guys taking one small step for man I’m taking one giant leap for mankind.

Will V I promise I have no intention of running shoddy and or half-assed seductions just because the women down the weight class may be more likely to overvalue me. When I fuck up it’s my heart and head on the line across sets regardless of attraction. Poor form is poor form regardless of the set and if not analyzed/kept in check I've found the problem becomes recurring in many sets regardless of my desire for them (had a nasty period of bad screener game with many women).

We’ve also already acknowledge that bad seduction with a lower target and or simply going for lower targets doesn’t necessarily make them easier. This is not where I am coming from. ( Also skipping ahead, but there seems to be a portion of dudes who think me saying women I feel no attraction with, are below average, and or repulsive are easier all the time...I have not said this. I've been rejected by all of the above. My overall sets and feedback went up when they were included though...meaning more experience.)

All you need to do is put in the work and improve one thing at a time, constantly taking small risks to receive new feedback and adjusting accordingly, and you'll eventually get anywhere you want.

100% that's process, skill acquisition.

Great post. Work through things move by move, rather than continuing with the same bad habit (trying to pull it all off at once) with a lower target.

I have no intention of or experience of succeeding despite bad habits. I might be unlucky. That lower target is practice just the same as higher targets. As far as I've experienced poor form is poor form. Across the board with sets and you will get feedback very quickly as well as a very nice night... with no pussy and a steep learning curve. This is my experience.

@Will_V. Wow . So eloquent and could not said it better myself. Your knack of expressing and clarifying seduction ideas is amazing.

Yeah I value his perspective and hope one day my experience really shows me the art, music, and beauty in this whole process/dance. I have to pay the cost though. By any means. Not just about pussy although I cannot fully get behind your enjoyment without pussy. That's a preference thing.

Respect. Thanks for further input bro.

Next up

Spoiler: Lofty Writeup

2. @Lofty

Ok before going in I'd like to appreciate you writing this.

Again, what I was really saying in the chat is just because you haven’t gotten the results you want yet… it doesn’t mean that you’re not capable of getting with girls you like sooner than you think. And it also doesn’t mean that you totally have to get with girls you don’t like in order to get the ones you do like. That’s what’s not linear about this kind of development.

You’ll be proud to believe this is not how I’m looking at it. I also do not hold a strictly linear idea of progress and development in the real of social and sexual (Look Up Wicked Learning Environment.)

I have built and am building other skills that are both in the realm of Kind and Wicked Learning Environments. I know the drill and I know there is much I don't know about the drill.

I’m looking at this as a skill with women. I want to fuck and have relationship opportunities with the women I want to fuck as much as possible as quickly as possible. Why experience a significantly steeper slope when low admission progress in the form of interested women is present (even if unattractive, average, below average, and occasionally repulsive moreso). This is not screening out women I desire and rock hard for on first glance. This is screening in all pussy for experience, momentum, data points, competence, and higher likelihood with women at the top of my attraction gradient.

And like Will_V was saying, the girls you’re thinking of may or may not necessarily be “easier.” Each girl brings something different to the table… calibrate and perceive each one individually and you’ll see what he’s saying. This is also related to what I was telling you about how it makes little sense to specifically target “ugly” girls.

They have a tendency to chase more and put out. If there is resistance I can either leave the set and or continue to practice my game. If I lose the set I can find another woman who is more attractive or less and be more likely to succeed provided I take the feedback and aim to game to close regardless.

I'm not targeting ugly women. I'm screening in all the available pussy at the table for experience going A to Z.

Maybe the really hot, sexually liberated college girl may lead to a smoother overall process for you as a beginner than the overweight virgin from a conservative background. Moreover, remember the section in SMMA about how the core of female sexual psychology works. At a social frame level, there ARE women who you’ll have a bit of a headstart with anyway. These women may or may not be attractive to you - it really just depends but definitely don’t limit yourself to thinking only the “ugly” girls will be receptive to you from the get-go.

100%. I do not believe unattractive women, women I'm not interested in, and or repulsive women are all that is left or interested to me nor do I believe sticking to horrible leads I have no clue what to do with yet. Regardless of where they stand on my attraction gradient.

I will state I have been very lucky to have very desirable women in the pull-sex transition. I do not have a ceiling there friend . I am able to or in a few years able to reach at any weightclass.

And also like Dreamer was telling you before, really try to make sure you’re not putting the cart before the horse. Remember, your journey is still in the very beginning stages. You’ve developed a process-oriented mentality and while the field can be tough as a beginner at times (we’ve all been there), make sure you’re not letting yourself jump to conclusions here and slipping into a result-oriented mentality.

Seduction doesn’t work like Approach girl > fuck her/don’t fuck her. You know this!

I dislike this.

What I refuse absolutely is participation trophies and being placated by small wins. Absolutely.

My patience is thin when there is an option (pussy) that will make me better off in the long run.

Results are apart of my process-oriented mentality and it is not something I use to shame myself anymore. It is feedback. It doesn't feel good sometimes but it is real. Also sometimes even if the result isn't "I fuck" I still feel great and journal it down and review it. Look for similar logs and reports and speak in chat. ( More guys are active in chat, beginner, and general than FR's and journal. More likely to receive input.)

The cart not being before the horse is the very reason I’ve made this thread.

I'm not a player, seducer, pick up artist... I do not possess these skills down to the end zone.

The learning curve is steep and all pussy being screened in regardless of where it is on the attractiveness gradient flattens it.

I’m literally looking at the horse and trying to fuck it a for awhile so that I can hop in the cart with tons of babes after the experience. Hopefully riding off into the sunset with a very fulfilling sex life ahead of me. A life where I'm actively looking for challenges and the rush of yore when I was a wannabe player, seducer, pick up artist... after experience and possessing the skills.

Instead of thinking like fuck hot/fuck ugly, I really encourage you to continue thinking more in the transition phases:

• Approach to Hook-Point
• Hook-Point to Date or Hook-Point to Isolation
• Date to Pull or Isolation to Pull
• Pull to Sex

I am. The title is inflammatory and visceral for communications sake. I am very firmly looking at this from that perspective.

Seduction and Influence are a skill. Even with unattractive women game is still present. Attention, immersion, social frame, sexual escalation, emotional stimulation, VAC, opening, hook, isolation, extraction, close, framing... etc it's all there and she's a woman with a pussy and perspective. Even if I am not attracted to her or even slightly disgusted by her I can still improve these things.

See.

And there you’ll be able to attack your sticking points very quickly, see them in high resolution, and address why you’re not getting the results you want while accelerating your progress quickly. So if that means opening more sets so you can dedicatedly practice your hooking, sure, go for it. If it means immersing that one girl who’s nice but doesn’t get your dick hard, sure, go for it, get that work in. But take these things at a fieldwork-level because you can never predict what opportunities may come your way.

100% this is what my whole post is about. Getting infield and not only not being able to predict opportunities, but create them consistently from A to Z.

Lastly, I also encourage you to consider why you’re framing girls as “fugly bitches” - this is a very negative lens, actually a very disrespectful one, and perhaps even indicative of a larger point about your current worldview. What type of experience do you think you’ll create for a woman if you view her as a “fugly bitch”? How do you think viewing her as a “fugly bitch” will affect how you seduce her? If you view certain women as “fugly bitches,” how might that impact how you interact with women at large?

On the other end of the spectrum, what type of girls are considered “hot”? Is that baseline created from Insta models with tons of filters and pornstars with tons of lip filler? Or is it based on women in the real world? This is a challenge we all see lots of people facing nowadays. Things to think about and maybe reflect on.

It's true that there exists taste and an attraction gradient. My aim with the title was a concise and very to the point understanding of the women screened in. It worked. No one is arguing about what a number looks like or what women are what. Everyone is on the exact same wavelength on "Fugly Bitches".

I will add it is also apart of my humor haha. I do not have a visceral primal reaction to what I imagine would be "Fugly Bitches". My dick isn't hard but I'm not waking up at night screaming " AHHHHHH UNATTRACTIVE PUSSY''.

I'm going to go in further as these questions are nice af.

What type of experience do you think you’ll create for a woman if you view her as a “fugly bitch”?

Let's reframe fugly bitch now that I have your attention and we're really talking.

This is a general screen in and acknowledgement of women I lack attraction and or connection as well as possibly repulsed.

I aim for good game. I hope she has a great experience if she fits any of the criteria above to be a "Fugly Bitch" for as long as we are interacting. This benefits her and me potentially. I do not take this lightly.

How do you think viewing her as a “fugly bitch” will affect how you seduce her?

More than likely I'll see myself giving masculinity and high-value vibes and she'll be chasey. This isn't full proof I've experienced a fair amount so far, but this has been my experience with women lower on my gradient morseso than high sofar.

I'm excited the lower stakes and seeing what a seducer, player, pick artist, higher value dude in sets that don't cause as much cognitive dissonance will bridge the gap and the reality. I'm sort of an actor. I can play the role if I'm given the script, but I want to BE that. The lack of weight allows experimentation, review without ego destruction (which has already happened a lot already imo), and rapid skill acquisition due to stubbornly sticking it out A to Z infield with all the screened in sets. Dry spells? goodbye. Competence? Hello friend.

If you view certain women as “fugly bitches,” how might that impact how you interact with women at large?

It is simply reality some women exist on each persons attraction gradient. I am not someone who takes pleasure from needlessly doing anyone dirty.

My answer is well. Very well and increasingly more competently since I'm screened in for pussy and improving game regardless of the woman.

My far reaching goal is for it to be magical. That'll come with quality A to Z experience...which everyone agrees is key...but doesn't agree that screening in all pussy is valuable ig. Unless they've misunderstood my post due to the inflammatory use of "Fugly Bitch".

My bad if that's the case. Thank you for the attention and I hope you've found something valuable nonetheless.

On the other end of the spectrum, what type of girls are considered “hot”? Is that baseline created from Insta models with tons of filters and pornstars with tons of lip filler? Or is it based on women in the real world? This is a challenge we all see lots of people facing nowadays. Things to think about and maybe reflect on.

My baseline is healthy. I'd love to have a gorgeous quality woman for a LTR and many of them exist. I've spoken to some. Even almost pulled one very early in my journey at a jazz club by merging pickup into hook up (introduce her to my circle and she was an outsider so put at the bottom despite hot af. A 9 or 10 in my book. If she isn't in yours I'm sure you'd still have a desire to fuck her.) Talk about asymmetric returns haha. My experience held that back and has held back many other things in my journey.

I'm not brainwashed by porn, media, and social media. I can appreciate unphotoshopped, edited, heavily makeup caked, look maxed women.

It may come as a surprise due to the title, but I actually like women. I don't want to fuck women lower on my attraction and connection gradient forever but to get to where I'm going "Bring On The Fugly Bitches. All bets are off every women screened in until my sticking points, experience, and skill is consistent, measured, and competent.

Now there’s a lot of material on the subject of “lowering your standards” and the guys here added more great input to all of this. But I suspect the sticking points you’re facing aren’t necessarily just related to the aesthetic quality of the girl.

When you think back on this day years from now, I think you’ll know exactly what I mean, and maybe you do already.

You have a tremendous skill of depth with your writing. I will not claim I understand. As I see it my current sticking points are right in front of me taunting the hell out of me.

Set after set after set. *sigh*

Here's what I'm looking at rn sir on my sticking points.

That Dude Mist

Went out for the first time in awhile to cold approach in stores rather than school. It went alright. Nothing to write home about, but goddamn did I hook good as fuck. The best hooks I’ve ever had actually despite being in the worst mood in a long time haha. A lady called me “ornery”...

www.skilledseducer.com

And Finally

Spoiler: Make Her Go XO!

@XO!

I thank you for writing this. Let's begin.

I understand what you're saying in your post but just to be clear, the first half of the article you linked actually recommends gaming chicks you don't find all that attractive while you're still under 50 lays. Exceptions being on women you are actually repulsed by.

As noted by focus the article you lead with is on my side. It strays in a notable way I'll talk about later there's also another article I'll give you at the end that shows you that though I consider my position strong I do not hold it religiously.

(I'm getting close though.)

There are many problems with gaming girls you don't like, almost all of which centers around attainability issues.

Yeah. Game can overcome and if that attainability issue presents itself as chasing rather than the darker sides of VAC then I get experience. If I get the darker sides I get experience as well. All pussy is screened in under 50 lays in my position.

You are not equipped to be a chooser with any consistent weight and leverage. Sure you can choose but without experience goodluck on th probability side of things. Seriously I hope you have the endurance to last a steeper hill because that is what is staring back at you.

As discussed previously in this thread, girls can very much tell the difference between a man who is genuinely attracted to them vs. a man who isn't. Unless you're a psychopath, it'll be very difficult to fake this.

I don't know man. I have one point that matches this among many.

Also what does it matter if the interaction isn't deep as hell for a lay anyway? Hookups are real and some women regardless of where they are on the attraction gradient don't want that mushy wushy they want someone to hit that oochie coochie. Compliance, good vibes, and game is my motto. I don't need to fake anything nor does genuine connection get you through seduction A to Z reliably. I'll be so limited if I based my anything on initial things right now. Sometimes the deepest thing is just the dick. You'll be better for it. The women you meet later will be better off for your experience.

There is an exception here: if intellectually you know a girl is ugly, but emotionally you're attracted to her anyway, you'll necessarily run your game as you would for any other girl you're genuinely attracted to, rendering this problem moot. But since we're talking about girls YOU consider fugly, I'll assume you're talking about girls YOU don't like but are fucking solely for the sake of gaining XP.

I do not agree with that emotional intellectual distinction in game. Your emotions can be a wildcard and your intellect says little of your game without… wait for it… EXPERIENCE, APPLICATION, and REPETITION from A to Z. Doing half sets in the gym slows your progress. You must finish what you start a lot.

Absolutely for the XP and no one has given a compelling reason to discredit that XP's worth. No matter where it is attained on the attraction and connection gradient it is XP and if the set is taken to completion you're really doing something.

1) Ugly girls are often harder to game.​

As Hector once told me, genuine attraction often overcomes shitty game.

Not law bro. Like at all. Genuine attraction can do magical things and be very special but if you lack the experience to capitalize then good luck doing that consistently. You're not always going to feel deep attraction either. Sometimes she's just cute or plain but she has a nice feature or is below average but you like her walk and or she's ugly or even less flatteringly repulsive but you are looking to experiment, build momentum, and or just not to be in a dry spell.

Compelling reasons to me. Keeps me on my best behavior and mindful of vibe and game.

You can be the slickest playboy around, but if she doesn't like you and/or she thinks/knows you don't actually like her she won't be receptive to your advances. In the latter case, she'll be highly prone to auto-rejection, often very harshly. Remember, a woman's bad behavior is often defensive in nature. It is for this reason I, along with many other fledgling seducers, have found that ugly girls are legitimately harder to game on almost every front, and this becomes all the more true the more you level up as a seducer and a man. They're pricklier, more petulant, and less graceful in comparison to their, ahem, more blessed sisters. Ironically enough, you may also find that many of these girls are highly narcissistic, and this may be necessary to buttress a fragile ego. The current dating/political landscape pushes this to toxic heights: because she's an independent queen that deserves no less than the very best, but also too because she needs to actively justify this frame early and often because it's a flimsy one that'll be hard for her to buy into, she'll be shit-testing you hardcore at almost comically cartoonish levels. If you haven't met this girl IRL (fat girls at the club, anyone?), you'll see her capping on social media, signalling how valuable and desirable she is by how hard she has to reject all these hordes of thirsty guys who totally want her. She's the type to ask you how much money you make as soon as you meet her, because that's what bad bitches are supposed to do. Not that all ugly girls are like this, but there certainly are enough to make it not worth imo.

I do not subscribe to the idea that any girl is easier or harder to inherently game. Context rules. So many factors it's mind numbing. In one place she could be a bitch, the next dtf, the next social, the next depressed out of her mind eating donuts. Game is about stepping up to the occasion and or creating occasions pointing the odds in your favor from A to Z.

Also... I'm reading hella Halo Effect man. My time infield does not reflect the reality that just because I'm having attainability issues and or high value I'm mistreated automatically. Perhaps ignored, but nothing truly vile or traumatizing. It takes energy to hurt people man. Energy people have focused somewhere else unless you really offend their sensibilities or are crazy. Women on the lower end of your attraction and or connection gradient are not this simple. Had warm and open interaction and cold and closed and a few hot and aggressive across the board with many people.

I do appreciate this section though as it has points. Just adding my perspective.

In any case, even if she's well-behaved you'll have to work overtime to close the "value gap" between you two in addition to having to face the usual challenges that you'll face in any attempted seduction. The bigger the gap, the harder you'll have to work. Having to manage her emotions in this manner takes more game to pull off beyond a certain point. And it'll be harder, because you'll be less motivated to work hard, because she's ugly lol. Believe me, even if you're highly motivated by your overarching goal to become a Skilled Seducer it'll be harder to draw upon this energy in real time, time after time again. You'll try less. You'll care less. You'll be less resilient to her bullshit. The sex will be worse, and you won't care that much. The easy out will always be "it's whatever, I got the lay and she was ugly / I didn't like her that much anyway."

This isn't necessarily true either. She might work overtime to keep your attention, investment, and the good vibes.

I'm not less motivated in my sets to improve myself through women on the lower side of my attraction and connection. I'm more motivated if anything as I want great, good, and or average women far more consistently. But overall women and pussy until the muscle is built up.

Why you think it's acceptable for you to use poor form in any way is beyond me and limits you. It will reflect in your other sets. I've seen it. Do not tolerate poor form for long/past warmups if you want to move forward in any skill.

I appreciate your value gap thing. I’ll look into that. I haven’t had that pop up in any really negative way in my interactions. I need more experience.

The sex being worse isn't facts though. It's on you to find what feels good and try to have a good time with your partner. Hell I'm a virgin and I know this. Shit she might pull a pornstar performance to keep you where a beautiful girl starfishes (real shit). Could be the reverse as well, but damn that Halo effect is strong.

Motivation is not enough anyway in skill acquisition. Consistency makes up for more and breeds more through gradual competence and refinement.

I stand firmly on consistency, experience, and knowledge refined and bolstered by grit to review, revise , and analyze means tenfold.

I can firmly say this after many great and horrible nights gaming. I may have gotten blown out when I was high momentum and state and I might have smoothly Casanova'd my way into a Pull-Sex in depressed state ( True story. No I did not fuck and it had somewhat to do with emotion, but at the end of the day those were a crutch. Experience, Skill, and Knowledge would have done me much better and increased the likelihood of courage being an emotion present in that scenario.)

2) It's emotionally trying for everyone involved.​

They know you don't actually like them, that you're just there to use them as your latest slam-piece. If they don't know that in the beginning then they will at the end.

We can’t read each others minds bro. You can influence your and her mirror neurons. Also maybe I'm just a slam piece for her. It doesn't have to be anything and when I get into managing buyers remorse, and relationship management I'll get there.

Many of us had a "nice guy" phase where we spent way too much time in the friend zone. Do you look back fondly on those days? Was it fun? Did you enjoy expending massive amounts of time, effort, and sometimes money chasing, investing, holding out hope for something that never came? Did you feel empowered when you were the shoulder to cry on, when you listened to her talk about the guys she respected, the guys she lusted after, the guys she fucked on? Didn't you feel like you wasted your time, like you were being used? It's the same feeling with girls, except worse. At least men have the clarity of being stuck very clearly in the friend zone. But with girls who are fucking guys who don't like them, what "zone" are they in? Friends with benefits? This is an inherently volatile grey area that often has great promise to evolve into a proper relationship. And since relationships of all types tend not to move backwards once a precedent is set, girls can't be blamed for getting their hopes up. Don't think ONSs will solve this issue - on some level you still have to seduce her to fuck her, and depending on what type of game you run you'll end up spiking all sorts of lovey-dovey emotions in her, even if just for a night. When it crashes, it burns. That feeling of worthlessness, that you're just something to be used up and discarded, lends itself all to well to vindictiveness. On the extreme end, "he just used me for sex" can so easily turn into "he raped me." It's a much smaller jump than many may realize, and imo this is one of the Big Three of false rape accusations.

I'm not nor is she owed anything. The future doesn't have to bleak. We could have a good time and move on with our lives or otherwise I end up practicing relationship man.

This is not an issue I will accept responsibility for nor do I expect any of my previous and or future ones to. Nor am I imagine the absolute worse possibilities lightly. They are taken into consideration and tech will be looked for in managing them. Sounds like experience.

On your last sentences

Firstly I appreciate you bringing this up.

There is game to insulate yourself against these things.

I'm going to get personal and away from skill acquisition really quick.

If something I do is hard on her I feel bad, but within reason. It'll mean I did something in poor form and or she was delusional in which case oh well. I’m going to do both great by and horribly with women. All is fair in love and war. I’m not putting that responsibility on. I want a skill not “with great power comes great responsibility." That's not conducive to growth. To be so risk averse and "safe".

If the worse of the worse comes I'll be fine in the long run.

If the experience is bad and life crushing so be it.

I have experienced with these things. I deconverted from my religion young publicly and was absolutely character assassinated and went through a ton of pain, harassment, mistreatment and was driven to almost committing suicide… you know what I learned?

You live another day and people are pussy. No one is going to die on their word.

They'll call you me a psychopath, or god forbid I get a FRA and I’m called the r word, or an abuser. But they eventually have life to return after they attack you.

Dudes are fucking terrified of this shit and I’ll tell you it hurts. I have a strong empathy for Tom Torrerro as I’ve experienced that public social takedown twice and it was when I was extremely vulnerable.

It’s humiliating, degrading, and painful…and yet.... you come out better eventually if you stick it out and embrace the suck. Not to say Tom Torrerro was weak… becauses if he was then I was too and I could be again.

MeToo, feminist, college FRA, etc bring it on. Another chance to adapt. These things are blown vastly out of proportion as well.

Leave. Just leave and start fresh somewhere else if you have to.

Literal bad people like child r***** and murderers do it all the time. Social canceling is painful, and I’m not going to aim headfirst into situations that could potentially bring that about without thought, but to let it hold me from the possibilities…

Fuck That

I’ve already been through it and if it happens to you in a couple years after you realize you actually are still fucking alive and most of those people don’t matter and are just living like you. Then you can do whatever. I'm choosing to move on with my life knowing as long as I breath I am impacting my life.

Ok back to skills

Funny thing is, gaming ugly girls can be just as hard on us guys. As Hector talked about in the article linked above, getting wrecked by girls you consider to be busted as fuck is a great and surefire way to obliterate an underdeveloped ego. Even when it works out, it doesn't.

Hard on you doesn't mean bad on you. In that same story he succinctly mentioned the sticking point in his journey and it wasn't just "Don't game women you don't like"

It was mostly emotional volatility, drinking, frame slip up.

His statement on not gaming them is in regards to motivation, time investment, and preventing burnout.

No statement that this made his game worse. His sticking points were there regardless and the experience improved him.

If your ego is in the way that's your problem. Mine is, but having an underdeveloped ego hold you back is normal people stuff. I'm trying to elevate. There's tech and articles on how to navigate the go.

Even if it works, it does....and it does again.

The girl I lost my virginity to was heinously fat and ugly, and the second had a literal lazy eye. I was not proud of these lays, I was ashamed. I was a late bloomer who struggled greatly with women and had no XP prior to finding GirlsChase. Working hard to get these lays did nothing to soothe my low self-esteem. "Why am I so fucking lame? Is this really the best I can do? Am I so unlovable and unattractive that only the girls no one else wanted would want me?" The first girl told me I was I was really cute. As it'd turn out, many people, not just girls, felt this way about me. But I couldn't believe her. Sure, I had serious self-esteem issues, but since she was ugly as fuck her opinion literally mattered less lol.

With all due respect XO. This is a reflection on you and how you framed the woman and the experience. Nonetheless your skill increased and with a beautiful women vs a newb you’d have the higher likelihood even still.

I suggest you reframe this for yourself as this is harmful stuff man.

That girl telling you YOU were cute and you not believing it...is on you. Your self esteem/frame was low (hopefully isn't now). I find that glaring as well. That was incredibly nice of her and I hope you’ve grown to accept the boosts of confidence and validation. Hopefully you are growing away from the limitations your ego and self esteem created for you. Those things prevented you from that winner effect.

You suffer from the halo effect like brutally and your writing about women is sketch to me man. I realize I wrote “Bring On The Fugly Bitches” but that was me being legitimately retarded to get attention and everyone on the same vibe. Not sure about you...

Just my thoughts.

3) You don't have to be perfect; there is no direct correlation between "value", which is highly subjective and contextual, and "success" in pickup.​

You don't have to be perfect. Many of us make the mistake of thinking "I failed because I'm not good enough, I gotta increase my SMV".

Somewhat true and I agree. Improving you SMV and refining your game and going for perfection/top will make you better off. You don't have to be perfect. Hell with enough time and volume below average will still get you action eventually just because. That's no fun though. That's why I'm approaching this as a skill.

This is hard. I'd like a flatter curve. Endurance, grit, and willpower are not appealing to me. Necessary for the ends I'm seeking, but if I can direct that across my attraction and connection gradient and get experience I'm really in for a less gritty ride overall.

But beyond basic pickup proficiency it often comes down to trust. Ego threats are just as real as physical threats, which are just as real as social threats. He's cute, BUT. If I want him to, will he stick around? If I don't want him to, will he get needy? Is he not crazy or a rapist or something? Does he actually like me? Is this someone I can bring home to Mom? Is this someone who I can bring around my friends? Depending on what she's looking for you'll be vetted on all kinds of things that have little to do with how Chadly you are.

Trust? Trust is not enough.

Game, seduction, and influence can be used to jump through the standards she gives to regular men and pull her into an experience and worldview 10x more liberating, sexy, fun. I'm in this not to be normal, but to exceed qualifying, be so valuable she makes exceptions, and finally have her qualifying to me and giving me a compelling reason to use the skill I built from experience across the attraction and connection gradient.

Thanks for writing XO!

Coming Up Next In The Final Planned Installation Of

"Bring On The Fugly Bitches"

How is your process?​

How many girls do you approach daily? Per week? Are you cross-gaming? If the goal is to level up faster your energy should be directed to refining your process moreso than anything else.

And my final concerns and most concerning counter points and considerations on this approach to flattening the learning curve.

See you soon and thank you to everyone writing and reading here. Feel free to add further perspective if you feel so inclined.

Planning on wrapping this up though unless another batch of very strong viewpoints come up. This is getting tiring. After Quarantine I'm going back to FR's.

 

[Will_V]

Ok this is

Bring On The Fugly Bitches Cont.​

It's your choice which reply you read.

Spoiler: To Will_V or Not To Will_V?

1. @Will_V

Section A.


This is more of a preferential and personal thing, but is not irrelevant by any means due to motivation concerns brought up by my assertion.

There are 3 claims here

1. Raw desire can overcome everything
2. This can be achieved with attractive and alluring women with nothing but appreciation for her femininity.
3. If that desire, that drive to possess is not there, it just feels wrong to me

My takes

1. Agree. I'm after learning the mechanics of seduction, pickup, and influence. There is a real art to the process though. I'm not fool to not notice this and I too enjoy this and have no plans of discarding women I feel that raw desire with. I will note that I've also been infield where desire prevailed and when it hasn’t. I have come to conclude desire is not enough. It's magical and I will not stop pursuing those I desire, but raw desire overcomes all up against my field experience currently just does not match. You are more experienced though so I'm not eliminating that factor at all...gee I wonder how I could bridge the gap and one day say "Raw desire can overcome everything". Probably with more seduction and fucking.

2. Agree. Human courtship is big and the ways to skin a goat are big. I will note that there is still a process behind the art. Creating this experience takes many components.

3. This is your preference and a personal stance. Maybe eventually when I'm experienced and can really work all my options and leads I'll hold this as well. Currently I cannot so I'm hurting myself and missing out on growth you've most likely been through if I adopt this.

Section B.



I agree. I'm not going to stop adding women I really fucking enjoy to my leads nor do I believe for everyone the approach of giving every pussy the time of day and even learning to pursue pussy with women you don't feel deep connection, are unattracted to, and or even repulsed by. My assertion is that this pussy is very available as well and will level you up just the same if that cutie has horrible logistic, you strikeout with all the leads you like, and or she is the most compliant and you're low experience trying to level up etc. All sorts of benefits in my view.

1. Yessir.

2. 100% man.

3. YES YES YES.

Point 3 is even more why I'm on this train and looking for it liberate me and my learning curve.



That's beautiful man. Sometimes I feel that too sort of.

This currently is fun at times, work at others, and also a burden. I find expression through my art and even there it is not always an enjoyable, special, or particularly relaxing thing. Consistency is the end all. Regardless of state. Some days I love it other days I want to die but if I keep on trying life is sweet or returns back to regular. For every light there is a shadow for every peak there is a valley and with time everything returns back to meh. Decisions build futures. I’m not looking at my emotions for guidance. I’m looking for process primarily. And what better process in seduction than attaining pussy. Even if it's land whale pussy. Still can be gamed to bed and used to experiment your sex skills.



I’m not going to easy way out. I’m opening up my options to include not just plain or slightly below plain but what you may consider as ugly and repulsive in order to completely flatten the curve and sooner than most guys taking one small step for man I’m taking one giant leap for mankind.

Will V I promise I have no intention of running shoddy and or half-assed seductions just because the women down the weight class may be more likely to overvalue me. When I fuck up it’s my heart and head on the line across sets regardless of attraction. Poor form is poor form regardless of the set and if not analyzed/kept in check I've found the problem becomes recurring in many sets regardless of my desire for them (had a nasty period of bad screener game with many women).

We’ve also already acknowledge that bad seduction with a lower target and or simply going for lower targets doesn’t necessarily make them easier. This is not where I am coming from. ( Also skipping ahead, but there seems to be a portion of dudes who think me saying women I feel no attraction with, are below average, and or repulsive are easier all the time...I have not said this. I've been rejected by all of the above. My overall sets and feedback went up when they were included though...meaning more experience.)



100% that's process, skill acquisition.



I have no intention of or experience of succeeding despite bad habits. I might be unlucky. That lower target is practice just the same as higher targets. As far as I've experienced poor form is poor form. Across the board with sets and you will get feedback very quickly as well as a very nice night... with no pussy and a steep learning curve. This is my experience.



Yeah I value his perspective and hope one day my experience really shows me the art, music, and beauty in this whole process/dance. I have to pay the cost though. By any means. Not just about pussy although I cannot fully get behind your enjoyment without pussy. That's a preference thing.

Respect. Thanks for further input bro.

Next up

Spoiler: Lofty Writeup

2. @Lofty

Ok before going in I'd like to appreciate you writing this.



You’ll be proud to believe this is not how I’m looking at it. I also do not hold a strictly linear idea of progress and development in the real of social and sexual (Look Up Wicked Learning Environment.)

I have built and am building other skills that are both in the realm of Kind and Wicked Learning Environments. I know the drill and I know there is much I don't know about the drill.

I’m looking at this as a skill with women. I want to fuck and have relationship opportunities with the women I want to fuck as much as possible as quickly as possible. Why experience a significantly steeper slope when low admission progress in the form of interested women is present (even if unattractive, average, below average, and occasionally repulsive moreso). This is not screening out women I desire and rock hard for on first glance. This is screening in all pussy for experience, momentum, data points, competence, and higher likelihood with women at the top of my attraction gradient.



They have a tendency to chase more and put out. If there is resistance I can either leave the set and or continue to practice my game. If I lose the set I can find another woman who is more attractive or less and be more likely to succeed provided I take the feedback and aim to game to close regardless.

I'm not targeting ugly women. I'm screening in all the available pussy at the table for experience going A to Z.



100%. I do not believe unattractive women, women I'm not interested in, and or repulsive women are all that is left or interested to me nor do I believe sticking to horrible leads I have no clue what to do with yet. Regardless of where they stand on my attraction gradient.

I will state I have been very lucky to have very desirable women in the pull-sex transition. I do not have a ceiling there friend . I am able to or in a few years able to reach at any weightclass.



I dislike this.

What I refuse absolutely is participation trophies and being placated by small wins. Absolutely.

My patience is thin when there is an option (pussy) that will make me better off in the long run.

Results are apart of my process-oriented mentality and it is not something I use to shame myself anymore. It is feedback. It doesn't feel good sometimes but it is real. Also sometimes even if the result isn't "I fuck" I still feel great and journal it down and review it. Look for similar logs and reports and speak in chat. ( More guys are active in chat, beginner, and general than FR's and journal. More likely to receive input.)

The cart not being before the horse is the very reason I’ve made this thread.

I'm not a player, seducer, pick up artist... I do not possess these skills down to the end zone.

The learning curve is steep and all pussy being screened in regardless of where it is on the attractiveness gradient flattens it.

I’m literally looking at the horse and trying to fuck it a for awhile so that I can hop in the cart with tons of babes after the experience. Hopefully riding off into the sunset with a very fulfilling sex life ahead of me. A life where I'm actively looking for challenges and the rush of yore when I was a wannabe player, seducer, pick up artist... after experience and possessing the skills.



I am. The title is inflammatory and visceral for communications sake. I am very firmly looking at this from that perspective.



See.



100% this is what my whole post is about. Getting infield and not only not being able to predict opportunities, but create them consistently from A to Z.



It's true that there exists taste and an attraction gradient. My aim with the title was a concise and very to the point understanding of the women screened in. It worked. No one is arguing about what a number looks like or what women are what. Everyone is on the exact same wavelength on "Fugly Bitches".

I will add it is also apart of my humor haha. I do not have a visceral primal reaction to what I imagine would be "Fugly Bitches". My dick isn't hard but I'm not waking up at night screaming " AHHHHHH UNATTRACTIVE PUSSY''.

I'm going to go in further as these questions are nice af.



Let's reframe fugly bitch now that I have your attention and we're really talking.

This is a general screen in and acknowledgement of women I lack attraction and or connection as well as possibly repulsed.

I aim for good game. I hope she has a great experience if she fits any of the criteria above to be a "Fugly Bitch" for as long as we are interacting. This benefits her and me potentially. I do not take this lightly.



More than likely I'll see myself giving masculinity and high-value vibes and she'll be chasey. This isn't full proof I've experienced a fair amount so far, but this has been my experience with women lower on my gradient morseso than high sofar.

I'm excited the lower stakes and seeing what a seducer, player, pick artist, higher value dude in sets that don't cause as much cognitive dissonance will bridge the gap and the reality. I'm sort of an actor. I can play the role if I'm given the script, but I want to BE that. The lack of weight allows experimentation, review without ego destruction (which has already happened a lot already imo), and rapid skill acquisition due to stubbornly sticking it out A to Z infield with all the screened in sets. Dry spells? goodbye. Competence? Hello friend.



It is simply reality some women exist on each persons attraction gradient. I am not someone who takes pleasure from needlessly doing anyone dirty.

My answer is well. Very well and increasingly more competently since I'm screened in for pussy and improving game regardless of the woman.

My far reaching goal is for it to be magical. That'll come with quality A to Z experience...which everyone agrees is key...but doesn't agree that screening in all pussy is valuable ig. Unless they've misunderstood my post due to the inflammatory use of "Fugly Bitch".

My bad if that's the case. Thank you for the attention and I hope you've found something valuable nonetheless.



My baseline is healthy. I'd love to have a gorgeous quality woman for a LTR and many of them exist. I've spoken to some. Even almost pulled one very early in my journey at a jazz club by merging pickup into hook up (introduce her to my circle and she was an outsider so put at the bottom despite hot af. A 9 or 10 in my book. If she isn't in yours I'm sure you'd still have a desire to fuck her.) Talk about asymmetric returns haha. My experience held that back and has held back many other things in my journey.

I'm not brainwashed by porn, media, and social media. I can appreciate unphotoshopped, edited, heavily makeup caked, look maxed women.

It may come as a surprise due to the title, but I actually like women. I don't want to fuck women lower on my attraction and connection gradient forever but to get to where I'm going "Bring On The Fugly Bitches. All bets are off every women screened in until my sticking points, experience, and skill is consistent, measured, and competent.



You have a tremendous skill of depth with your writing. I will not claim I understand. As I see it my current sticking points are right in front of me taunting the hell out of me.

Set after set after set. *sigh*

Here's what I'm looking at rn sir on my sticking points.

That Dude Mist

Went out for the first time in awhile to cold approach in stores rather than school. It went alright. Nothing to write home about, but goddamn did I hook good as fuck. The best hooks I’ve ever had actually despite being in the worst mood in a long time haha. A lady called me “ornery”...

www.skilledseducer.com

And Finally

Spoiler: Make Her Go XO!

@XO!

I thank you for writing this. Let's begin.



As noted by focus the article you lead with is on my side. It strays in a notable way I'll talk about later there's also another article I'll give you at the end that shows you that though I consider my position strong I do not hold it religiously.

(I'm getting close though.)



Yeah. Game can overcome and if that attainability issue presents itself as chasing rather than the darker sides of VAC then I get experience. If I get the darker sides I get experience as well. All pussy is screened in under 50 lays in my position.

You are not equipped to be a chooser with any consistent weight and leverage. Sure you can choose but without experience goodluck on th probability side of things. Seriously I hope you have the endurance to last a steeper hill because that is what is staring back at you.



I don't know man. I have one point that matches this among many.

Also what does it matter if the interaction isn't deep as hell for a lay anyway? Hookups are real and some women regardless of where they are on the attraction gradient don't want that mushy wushy they want someone to hit that oochie coochie. Compliance, good vibes, and game is my motto. I don't need to fake anything nor does genuine connection get you through seduction A to Z reliably. I'll be so limited if I based my anything on initial things right now. Sometimes the deepest thing is just the dick. You'll be better for it. The women you meet later will be better off for your experience.



I do not agree with that emotional intellectual distinction in game. Your emotions can be a wildcard and your intellect says little of your game without… wait for it… EXPERIENCE, APPLICATION, and REPETITION from A to Z. Doing half sets in the gym slows your progress. You must finish what you start a lot.

Absolutely for the XP and no one has given a compelling reason to discredit that XP's worth. No matter where it is attained on the attraction and connection gradient it is XP and if the set is taken to completion you're really doing something.


Not law bro. Like at all. Genuine attraction can do magical things and be very special but if you lack the experience to capitalize then good luck doing that consistently. You're not always going to feel deep attraction either. Sometimes she's just cute or plain but she has a nice feature or is below average but you like her walk and or she's ugly or even less flatteringly repulsive but you are looking to experiment, build momentum, and or just not to be in a dry spell.

Compelling reasons to me. Keeps me on my best behavior and mindful of vibe and game.



I do not subscribe to the idea that any girl is easier or harder to inherently game. Context rules. So many factors it's mind numbing. In one place she could be a bitch, the next dtf, the next social, the next depressed out of her mind eating donuts. Game is about stepping up to the occasion and or creating occasions pointing the odds in your favor from A to Z.

Also... I'm reading hella Halo Effect man. My time infield does not reflect the reality that just because I'm having attainability issues and or high value I'm mistreated automatically. Perhaps ignored, but nothing truly vile or traumatizing. It takes energy to hurt people man. Energy people have focused somewhere else unless you really offend their sensibilities or are crazy. Women on the lower end of your attraction and or connection gradient are not this simple. Had warm and open interaction and cold and closed and a few hot and aggressive across the board with many people.

I do appreciate this section though as it has points. Just adding my perspective.



This isn't necessarily true either. She might work overtime to keep your attention, investment, and the good vibes.

I'm not less motivated in my sets to improve myself through women on the lower side of my attraction and connection. I'm more motivated if anything as I want great, good, and or average women far more consistently. But overall women and pussy until the muscle is built up.

Why you think it's acceptable for you to use poor form in any way is beyond me and limits you. It will reflect in your other sets. I've seen it. Do not tolerate poor form for long/past warmups if you want to move forward in any skill.

I appreciate your value gap thing. I’ll look into that. I haven’t had that pop up in any really negative way in my interactions. I need more experience.

The sex being worse isn't facts though. It's on you to find what feels good and try to have a good time with your partner. Hell I'm a virgin and I know this. Shit she might pull a pornstar performance to keep you where a beautiful girl starfishes (real shit). Could be the reverse as well, but damn that Halo effect is strong.

Motivation is not enough anyway in skill acquisition. Consistency makes up for more and breeds more through gradual competence and refinement.

I stand firmly on consistency, experience, and knowledge refined and bolstered by grit to review, revise , and analyze means tenfold.

I can firmly say this after many great and horrible nights gaming. I may have gotten blown out when I was high momentum and state and I might have smoothly Casanova'd my way into a Pull-Sex in depressed state ( True story. No I did not fuck and it had somewhat to do with emotion, but at the end of the day those were a crutch. Experience, Skill, and Knowledge would have done me much better and increased the likelihood of courage being an emotion present in that scenario.)


We can’t read each others minds bro. You can influence your and her mirror neurons. Also maybe I'm just a slam piece for her. It doesn't have to be anything and when I get into managing buyers remorse, and relationship management I'll get there.



I'm not nor is she owed anything. The future doesn't have to bleak. We could have a good time and move on with our lives or otherwise I end up practicing relationship man.

This is not an issue I will accept responsibility for nor do I expect any of my previous and or future ones to. Nor am I imagine the absolute worse possibilities lightly. They are taken into consideration and tech will be looked for in managing them. Sounds like experience.

On your last sentences

Firstly I appreciate you bringing this up.

There is game to insulate yourself against these things.

I'm going to get personal and away from skill acquisition really quick.

If something I do is hard on her I feel bad, but within reason. It'll mean I did something in poor form and or she was delusional in which case oh well. I’m going to do both great by and horribly with women. All is fair in love and war. I’m not putting that responsibility on. I want a skill not “with great power comes great responsibility." That's not conducive to growth. To be so risk averse and "safe".

If the worse of the worse comes I'll be fine in the long run.

If the experience is bad and life crushing so be it.

I have experienced with these things. I deconverted from my religion young publicly and was absolutely character assassinated and went through a ton of pain, harassment, mistreatment and was driven to almost committing suicide… you know what I learned?

You live another day and people are pussy. No one is going to die on their word.

They'll call you me a psychopath, or god forbid I get a FRA and I’m called the r word, or an abuser. But they eventually have life to return after they attack you.

Dudes are fucking terrified of this shit and I’ll tell you it hurts. I have a strong empathy for Tom Torrerro as I’ve experienced that public social takedown twice and it was when I was extremely vulnerable.

It’s humiliating, degrading, and painful…and yet.... you come out better eventually if you stick it out and embrace the suck. Not to say Tom Torrerro was weak… becauses if he was then I was too and I could be again.

MeToo, feminist, college FRA, etc bring it on. Another chance to adapt. These things are blown vastly out of proportion as well.

Leave. Just leave and start fresh somewhere else if you have to.

Literal bad people like child r***** and murderers do it all the time. Social canceling is painful, and I’m not going to aim headfirst into situations that could potentially bring that about without thought, but to let it hold me from the possibilities…

Fuck That

I’ve already been through it and if it happens to you in a couple years after you realize you actually are still fucking alive and most of those people don’t matter and are just living like you. Then you can do whatever. I'm choosing to move on with my life knowing as long as I breath I am impacting my life.

Ok back to skills



Hard on you doesn't mean bad on you. In that same story he succinctly mentioned the sticking point in his journey and it wasn't just "Don't game women you don't like"

It was mostly emotional volatility, drinking, frame slip up.

His statement on not gaming them is in regards to motivation, time investment, and preventing burnout.

No statement that this made his game worse. His sticking points were there regardless and the experience improved him.

If your ego is in the way that's your problem. Mine is, but having an underdeveloped ego hold you back is normal people stuff. I'm trying to elevate. There's tech and articles on how to navigate the go.

Even if it works, it does....and it does again.



With all due respect XO. This is a reflection on you and how you framed the woman and the experience. Nonetheless your skill increased and with a beautiful women vs a newb you’d have the higher likelihood even still.

I suggest you reframe this for yourself as this is harmful stuff man.

That girl telling you YOU were cute and you not believing it...is on you. Your self esteem/frame was low (hopefully isn't now). I find that glaring as well. That was incredibly nice of her and I hope you’ve grown to accept the boosts of confidence and validation. Hopefully you are growing away from the limitations your ego and self esteem created for you. Those things prevented you from that winner effect.

You suffer from the halo effect like brutally and your writing about women is sketch to me man. I realize I wrote “Bring On The Fugly Bitches” but that was me being legitimately retarded to get attention and everyone on the same vibe. Not sure about you...

Just my thoughts.


Somewhat true and I agree. Improving you SMV and refining your game and going for perfection/top will make you better off. You don't have to be perfect. Hell with enough time and volume below average will still get you action eventually just because. That's no fun though. That's why I'm approaching this as a skill.

This is hard. I'd like a flatter curve. Endurance, grit, and willpower are not appealing to me. Necessary for the ends I'm seeking, but if I can direct that across my attraction and connection gradient and get experience I'm really in for a less gritty ride overall.



Trust? Trust is not enough.

Game, seduction, and influence can be used to jump through the standards she gives to regular men and pull her into an experience and worldview 10x more liberating, sexy, fun. I'm in this not to be normal, but to exceed qualifying, be so valuable she makes exceptions, and finally have her qualifying to me and giving me a compelling reason to use the skill I built from experience across the attraction and connection gradient.

Thanks for writing XO!

Coming Up Next In The Final Planned Installation Of

"Bring On The Fugly Bitches"



And my final concerns and most concerning counter points and considerations on this approach to flattening the learning curve.

See you soon and thank you to everyone writing and reading here. Feel free to add further perspective if you feel so inclined.

Planning on wrapping this up though unless another batch of very strong viewpoints come up. This is getting tiring. After Quarantine I'm going back to FR's.

Do what you gotta do!

Btw you might think I have ultra high standards or something from what I wrote. It's not the case. I can enjoy many kinds of women in different ways. For example I almost banged a woman in her fifties with white/blond hair after a wonderful date at a wine bar, but it was because I liked her a lot and her vibe was very arousing, she had this happy, horny vibe that pulled me in. Maybe some guys would never even consider her, but again the point is that for me in that moment she was attractive.

That's my compass, whether I feel attraction, not whether she's a 8/9/10/whatever. And so if you're able to enjoy yourself ravishing a woman who's not up to someone else's standards, who cares what anyone else thinks?

I would suggest not worrying too much about explaining anything to yourself or anyone, just do what you need to - and you know what you need to do. Just don't stop taking risks in the meantime with the girls you're really attracted to.

And focus on improving the skill piece by piece like Lofty said, because in the end it is a skill made up of many different components that can each be practiced and improved.

 

[mist]

No part 3 coming anymore.

Thank you all for popping though on this kookily named thread haha.

Hope your January is progressing nicely or giving you feedback on how to achieve that.

Peace

Happy gaming guys!