Chase vs. Ricardus's Take On "I Love You"

[Mr.Rob]

A good female friend of mine took me out to dinner last night and she commented on how she hates how so many guys feel "gay" for saying "I love you" to their girlfriends. My response at the time was along the lines of when most guys say "I love you" it typically is gay but there is a right way to go about it and my friend agreed with me.

So with my curiosity piqued on the subject I went into the GC archives and read both Chase's and Ricardus's take on when/how to say "I love you" to your GF.

Ricardus recommends expressing your feelings for a girl in a strong but vulnerable way with the frame being "I'm really crazy for you, but I'll be fine if this doesn't work out"

Chase on the other hand recommends never actually saying the words "I love you" and instead rewarding your girl either physically or verbally for sharing her feelings. The idea being if you say "I love you" then a bunch of cultural baggage/expectations are now attached AND it implies that "she knows she has you".

So which one is it? Can you say "I love you" and get away with it or should you avoid ever admitting your "in love" with your gf?

I don't see how if you were in a serious long long term relationship/marriage how you could get away with not saying ILY without the girl eventually auto-rejecting... but I've little relationship experience perhaps my speculations are wrong.

Lastly I have known a few dominant men with solid relationship management skills (all married) that tell their wives they love them and are highly respected/admired by their spouses. So I assume its possible if done correctly.

So ILY or no ILY, how do you guys approach this?

-Rob

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Mr Rob,

Interesting answers from Chase and Ricardus. Notice how Ricardus manages to say it without actually using the words. "But I'll be fine" is his way to tell her "you do not own me".

It is also my experience that when you pronounce this L word you are actually strongly submitting to the BF subservient frame. In fact, as I remember, each time I said it was because I would get some recurring and growing complaint that I never say it... Until I finally give up and say it under pressure. But this was back in the days when I would go the full BF route as my only approach to girls. Some 25 years ago LOL. Interestingly, now in my days of fast seducing girls, I have never faced the issue even once... And that's way, way, way more girls than in my "good BF" years.

I would advise to avoid actually using the words, and say it in another way "a la Ricardus". And in any case, never, never say it under pressure. If you get pressure, make it clear with her that you will either say it spontaneously when you feel like it, or not at all, but certainly not because of pressure.

Seppuku

... And now, I remember that I *did* actually face the pressure once, last year. It was this Chinese girl which was the object of my "Inseminator Request" LR. And under strong pressure from her, I had to decline forcefully and tell her that I would never say such a thing under pressure. This girl was the Queen of framing, she tried all sorts of psychological pressures on me (like described in the report), before eventually formulating her Inseminator request. She was clearly used to have men do things her ways.

It just reinforces my feeling that when a girl pressures you into an "I Love You", she is just framing you into subservient mode.

 

[Richard]

Never say it early on. Women are hyper-sensitive to changes in behavior so once you say "I love you, too" then she expects that answer and not hearing it will, eventually, make her feel like the relationship is moving backwards. So, in all cases, don't say it until you're concretely sure that this girl is girlfriend quality and she's successfully passed your tests to become a girlfriend (which, takes at least 3 months minimum).

Anyway, when things are still relatively fresh and new, I picked it up from Franco to respond with something like "What's not to love?" with a sly smile and nod. You're conditioning her to not expect "I love you, too."

In my case, I've been involved with my girlfriend for going on two years now so I'm at a point where I've said that I love her and the few attempts I made to joke with her by saying "What's not to love?" have been met with her calling me out for inconsistent behavior. The other caveat is that my girlfriend knows that I have other options and I can sleep with new women if things don't work out so she's never gotten a huge sense that she "has me" so it's pretty safe for me to tell her I love her.

My take is that it's fine to say it but ONLY after she's passed your tests to become a girlfriend or something more than a fuck-buddy. Chase's route leaves options open for as long as possible in the future, by the way. By showing her you love her without actually saying it you're not really slotting yourself into the boyfriend category as much as a man that does say it which makes long term prospects more flexible and open. Also, keep in mind that Ricardus has a particular style so his openly emotional route suits him well but is not advice I would offer to every man that reads the forums; luckily, I have that same kind of style

-Richard

 

[Mr.Rob]

Seppuku,

It just reinforces my feeling that when a girl pressures you into an "I Love You", she is just framing you into subservient mode.

Ah yes. Funny that same female friend that took me out to dinner will try to pressure me into saying "I love you" (we've been platonic friends for 10 years, so she's like a sister). She just likes to test and dominate people (particularly men), and I used to fall for it not knowing how to go about it. I'll tell her ILY as a sister on my own terms these days.

It is also my experience that when you pronounce this L word you are actually strongly submitting to the BF subservient frame.

I suppose even if you do want to be a longterm boyfriend you want to use the L word on your own terms, not hers. It just seems like it'd be hard to never tell a girl you actually do love that you love her (particularly since she'll be expecting you to be like 99% of every other male that gets into a relationship).

If you went chase's route would it be realistic to be able to get married for 10 years and not say ILY to your girl? That would seem odd to me.

Richard,

Anyway, when things are still relatively fresh and new, I picked it up from Franco to respond with something like "What's not to love?" with a sly smile and nod. You're conditioning her to not expect "I love you, too."

I like that.

So basically its safe to say ILY after you've screened her for a long enough period of time to allow her into your life long term AND if she knows you can easily go get tail (or may even be getting a little side tail for all she knows). And perhaps even then only if its congruent to your personality.

I guess this might be an obvious question but how does your girl know without seeing you with other girls that you have other options?

Good insights here.

-Rob

 

[Seppuku]

I suppose even if you do want to be a longterm boyfriend you want to use the L word on your own terms, not hers. It just seems like it'd be hard to never tell a girl you actually do love that you love her (particularly since she'll be expecting you to be like 99% of every other male that gets into a relationship).

If you went chase's route would it be realistic to be able to get married for 10 years and not say ILY to your girl? That would seem odd to me.

You're right. But you say it on your own terms, if/when you feel like saying it, using your own words, rather than under pressure at her request.

Cheers!

 

[Richard]

I like that.

So basically its safe to say ILY after you've screened her for a long enough period of time to allow her into your life long term AND if she knows you can easily go get tail (or may even be getting a little side tail for all she knows). And perhaps even then only if its congruent to your personality.

I guess this might be an obvious question but how does your girl know without seeing you with other girls that you have other options?

Good insights here.

Yeah. Keep in mind, it's a woman's job to push for a relationship with you so she should be the one to say ILY first. Then, ideally, you'll hold off a while (because, she'll likely say it relatively early on) because you're still screening her at that point. Then, once you're long-term I will say ILY first to reward a behavior; one thing, though, I absolutely do NOT say ILY as a gimmick, I will not say it to anyone unless I feel it which is what Seppuku is saying.

That aside, my girl knows I have options just because of the plethora of niche situations I've had to navigate through with her. Also, apparently it "shows" just when I talk to her about the stuff that went on in my day, haha. The last thing to keep in mind is that women are well aware of how "average" guys react to particular situations/tests so when you respond in a different way, she assumes you're not "average."

 

[Mr.Rob]

Cool discussion gents. Yeah I'm reaching a stage in my development where I'd really be more excited to have a deeper connection with a girl as opposed to a slew of ONS's where I never see the girl again (though the run I had was pretty doggone fun ;p). I'm pretty indifferent to more notchs on my belt for the time being.

I think it'd be more productive for me at this point to build up some relationship management skills since I've near zero experience in relationships at age 24. Once my life situation improves to the point I can go out and start meeting women regularly again (which should be in the near future if things keep on track) then I'll probably set a rule for myself that I can only have sex with women I'd be interested in screening for a relationship as Richard describes.

Yeah. Keep in mind, it's a woman's job to push for a relationship with you so she should be the one to say ILY first. Then, ideally, you'll hold off a while (because, she'll likely say it relatively early on) because you're still screening her at that point. Then, once you're long-term I will say ILY first to reward a behavior; one thing, though, I absolutely do NOT say ILY as a gimmick, I will not say it to anyone unless I feel it which is what Seppuku is saying.

This is good. Noted.

Also, apparently it "shows" just when I talk to her about the stuff that went on in my day, haha.

Lol nice.

Preciate yalls input guys

-Rob

 

[Seppuku]

Cool discussion gents. Yeah I'm reaching a stage in my development where I'd really be more excited to have a deeper connection with a girl as opposed to a slew of ONS's where I never see the girl again (though the run I had was pretty doggone fun ;p). I'm pretty indifferent to more notchs on my belt for the time being.

Same here. I'm now more interested to build meaningful, lasting connections than just more notch count per se. BUT. I feel that it is good thing to continue to have some quick flings on the side for (i) keeping practice, and (ii) keeping a healthy outcome independent mindset.

Gents, I'm curious to hear your views on this?

 

[Mr.Rob]

Same here. I'm now more interested to build meaningful, lasting connections than just more notch count per se. BUT. I feel that it is good thing to continue to have some quick flings on the side for (i) keeping practice, and (ii) keeping a healthy outcome independent mindset.

I agree on the points (i) and (ii) Seppuku, I definitely want to be having sex BUT I think I will aim to screen out girls I KNOW I'm not that interested in either on the approach or 1st date, and spend that time saved on meeting/dating/sleeping with girls I KNOW I'd actually be interested to get to know.

In the past I've wasted a lot of time just sleeping with any cute girl that was into me but I'd know before I even take her home I'm not going to call her back.

So for me I'm only going to take home a girl I know I'll call back... Though if I meet a bangin HB that's drippingly horny it may be hard to make an exception

 

[Richard]

Gents, I'm curious to hear your views on this?

I think the answer will vary based on age (more than likely).

I remember Chase saying when you shift to being goal-oriented or career-oriented the amount of new women in your life will dwindle as you put your energy into other things. At the moment, I'm working full-time and full-time in college so I don't have a lot of time for new women... which means less flings.

If you're older, have your career set, etc. then you can probably make more time to introduce new women into your life fairly regularly.

In general, I think it's most optimal to have a girlfriend and some ONSs and flings intermittently to keep yourself fresh. The other avenue you can take is having a mono girlfriend and building a life that requires your extra energy if you're not into flings or ONSs (like I'm not, anymore) but that can change in the future. As it stands, I have a mono girlfriend so my time management works out among the three big areas of my life.

-Richard

 

[ThePhoenix]

Interesting discussion!

Same here. I'm now more interested to build meaningful, lasting connections than just more notch count per se. BUT. I feel that it is good thing to continue to have some quick flings on the side for (i) keeping practice, and (ii) keeping a healthy outcome independent mindset.

Gents, I'm curious to hear your views on this?

Well, for me I'm going to need many ONS/FB's to get where you guys are! I'm (at least somewhat) dropping standards for the sake of experience, but ultimately the reason I'm trying to learn is to get consistent acces to what I consider really high quality women (noting some qualities I appreciate, such as cockiness, are not universally appreciated by guys.. lol).

Once I'm there, ideally I want to make deeper connections with women of my ideal type. I would say my ideal situation in this case is still more of an open relationship. I used to swear by monogamy but that was just the brainwashing. At this point I've seen too much both in science and in my own observations to really buy into full/permanent monogamy. I hope that is not going to make it impossible to still have something strong, but actually, I suspect total monogamy will usually destroy a relationship in the long term anyway.

Monogamy is a genetic disadvantage particularly to a male, so I don't think you can possibly be in that situation with a woman and still get quite the same kind of respect from her. Also, people ultimately stop appreciating those things they feel are not at risk, and I think that probably goes both ways.

Not to mention, I've come to appreciate the variety of women (even within my broad niche).

I seem to remember Chase mentioning relationships he's had where the woman was monogamous while he (openly) wasn't. Not sure what I feel about that. On one hand, I guess that's the ideal for a guy! But something feels a bit off.. maybe my mental model isn't strong enough, but while I do hold the belief of being strong and not getting walked on by women, I'm not really one to see them as subordinates, either, so for me I'm more comfortable with keeping things symmetrical. Now, if she just never bothers to get some on the side even though I do, I won't complain at all! I just wouldn't want to ask it of her.

Especially the cocky type I most like, I'm not sure if they're even capable of being totally monogamous. And I think a woman is going to lose a ton of respect for a guy she has cheated on, even if that's not why she did it initially and it was just a random temptation. Almost like cheating is not just an effect of but also a cause of low esteem, which would make it a vicious cycle! I figure, better to nip that in the bud by making it impossible for her to cheat! LOL!

So ILY or no ILY, how do you guys approach this?

Speech is one of the most autonomous things we have, so to be pressured into saying a certain something, is particularly bad. I agree with the notion that saying it out of expectations is a really beta frame to be avoided at all costs. Also, if you only say it if and when you feel like it, I think the impact for her will be better, because it came freely. Whether I would think to never say it, even freely, that's a tough call I don't have the experience to decide! Very good question!

 

[Fuck This]

The funny thing I discovered was i had friends who volunteered "I love you" when my wife wouldn't. That was when I truly looked at what relationships were important and fulfilling to me.

So now I am much more free with the words among my friends. Because they said it without any preconception that you could only love the person you are in a sexual relationship with.

And doing that I found I was LESS likely to hang on to a relationship that didn't fit/wasn't meeting my needs.

 

[Cacc]

I'm curious to know if you guys hide the fact that you're fucking women on the side to your girlfriend or do you guys not make a big deal about it?

 

[Fuck This]

I'm curious to know if you guys hide the fact that you're fucking women on the side to your girlfriend or do you guys not make a big deal about it?

That's a different thread.