ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

Don Giovanni

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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160
Unfortunately not. I have yet to meet a guy like me (mainly, a guy as short as me) that does well with women. Haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I'm always looking because I would LOVE to be friends with that guy and have a mentor like that.
You probably wont be friends with them, but to name a few: Prince, Al Pacino, Charlie Chaplin, Pablo Picasso, Bruno Mars, Roger Daltrey… Pretty much most of the rockstars are short, Eddie Vedder, Bruce Dickinson, Thom Yorke, Trent Reznor, Dio, the singer from Greta Van Fleet and I’m sure they’ve had their share.

Also you can buy platform shoes that look cool, these kind of things are in now. I own these:


Or chelsea boots with a bigger heel or you can put hight increase insoles in your shoes. If you look cool, no one will think “oh, he’s trying to make himself look higher” or even if someone does, who cares? I mean girls do it all the time with high heels, why shouldn’t you get an extra inch?
 

Will_V

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@ElderPrice glad my posts are helpful to you!

@Will_V -

Thank you again for your time and help. I want you to know something. I consider you my role model when it comes to inner game/attaining mastery over one's thoughts. I can tell in how you write, and in the stories you've told about your challenges that you've overcome, that you have a rock solid head on your shoulders. Your mind is calm, cool, collected, strong, and forged through hardship. I haven't met anyone in person with such mastery of their thoughts. I enjoy every single post you make on this board, and I hope to one day overcome my issues and have a mind like yours.

I originally read your reply early this morning, and during the day I had a thought about your 'working state' concept. Could this possibly be described as simply not overthinking what you're trying to cognitively solve, and also not overworking?

It's much simpler than that. The idea is simply to stop letting emotion run the show, and start using rationality to build a clear concept of what the problems are and how you can succeed.

You can't turn off your emotions. That's not what it's about, and trying to force emotion away is counterproductive (it simply makes the emotions bury themselves outside of perception and then and emerge outside of your control). What it is, is disconnecting the emotion from the concept you have of the situation, what is wrong, and what can be done.

The truth is that what someone believes will eventually reprogram their emotions, for better or worse. Trying to transplant beliefs (I am good vs I am no good), in my opinion, doesn't work at all. Instead, the idea is to examine the problem rationally in terms of cause and effect on a moment to moment basis, and when you see a cause for a negative effect, you can say "well until I correct this, I have no basis for believing any other reason why I have this problem". Since this is logical it is very hard to un-believe it.

For example, you say that you don't feel happy approaching girls, and that you feel actually quite negative when you consider approaching. That is a loud and clear cause for the negative effect of a rejection. So before you make any other conclusions you can simply accept "well as long as I am approaching in a bad mood, girls will probably not want to be part of that and I will get rejected, so I cannot make any judgements about the rest of me until I at least approach in a good state of mind". So now, you have a clear goal that is outcome independent - approach a girl in a positive state of mind.

If you then approach a girl and you get a rejection, delay your emotional reaction. Simply accept that it happened and ask: did I approach in a way that was clearly enjoying myself? If not, then the question is, how can I start enjoying myself? Why am I not always enjoying myself? Do I have problems with my self-image? Etc.

You can see how you end up with a branching set of possibilities for fixing the problems and improving your abilities without the crushing emotional reaction and judgement of 'I'm not good enough' overruling everything, simply by putting the negative emotion in the waiting room and focusing on what the next thing is that you can do to give yourself the best chance.

The idea that crossed my mind today is that I think I've overdone it lately. One of my faults here is lack of patience, so for the last month or so, I've tried dedicating as much free mental time as possible to working on my negative thoughts. This has an obvious drawback: If you spend a lot of time each day on your negative thoughts, you're going to be spending a lot of time each day thinking about your negative thoughts. You'll be spending a lot of time in negativity. This isn't good. You get help by adding positive thoughts.

Agreed 100%, this is my experience as well. Action to solve a problem, even a tangential problem, is better than thinking about an intractable problem.

There's also just not that much to think about:
You identified the negative belief? Check.
You identified the rational thoughts and positive beliefs to replace it? Check.
Then that's it. There's no more thinking to be done. No more dwelling or ruminating. No more consciously exploring. Just stop thinking and start 'taking the medicine' that you identified.

Not sure if this is exactly what you're describing with your 'working state,' but I think it's close. You're able to make progress when your mind is at peace. Not when it's being dragged down in negative emotions.

The main thing is determining a problem and beginning work on it, not trying to replace beliefs.

Beliefs are not easily replaced. Bad beliefs come from a combination of truth that is not processed correctly and bad habits from previous experiences. The mechanisms for forming them are not simple to understand or oppose. The best thing is to focus on the actions and reactions, cause and effect, not the beliefs.

Agreed completely and I believe we've discussed something like this before. I've tried to find this out my entire journey, and I have to be careful because this is a very easy rabbit hole to fall in and start dwelling on appearance and believing I'm 'not good enough.' Here is all I have at the moment:
- My problem is not my wardrobe/hair/visible hygiene. I'm never the most fashionable guy, but I follow all the best practices, and when I've asked multiple people (even coaches) for feedback, nobody has ever said that any of these are an issue.
- Therefore, as best as I can tell, that leaves only two remaining things: Girls see my short height, and/or girls see bad body language/anxiety/tension.

Obviously there's not much that can be done about height, so I've been working on these possible visible anxiety cues for as long as we've been discussing it. So, I don't know what else to do here other than keep working on it.



Unfortunately not. I have yet to meet a guy like me (mainly, a guy as short as me) that does well with women. Haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I'm always looking because I would LOVE to be friends with that guy and have a mentor like that.

But to your point, I do believe some solution exists, and the best I can think of based on all my knowledge is that my only pathway is, what feels like to me, is spam approach. The logic being, hot girls aren't going to give an IOI so all you can do is assume girls are interested but are afraid to show it, approach every hot, single-looking girl you see since you have no idea if they're into you or not, then just hopefully you find one that hooks after the approach.

I have a very simple philosophy about body and mind. My body is simply a tool, an expendable one, and my mind is what rules it and the reality around it. Even if something happened to my body, my mind would have to make up for it somehow, build a reality around it that supports its weaknesses and bolsters its strengths.

Imagine that you get dropped in a jungle full of tigers somewhere and you need to survive. Let's say the guy next to you is given a machine gun, and you only get a knife. What are you going to do? Your mind will decide the outcome, not the tool that you are given. The tool will affect a single situation to a degree, but the mind can make up for any deficit as long as you don't lose control of it, when it is fully capable of planning, strategizing, and adapting, without being hijacked by overwhelming emotions. It's the mind that is the most powerful tool, do not let it go to waste.

There are guys who walk around with machine guns, so to speak, with so little control of their mind that they quickly lose the game of life. And people who have only the knife, so to speak, who end up building a tree house in the jungle and having all the animals penned underneath.

Man is the weakest of all the animals. No claws, small teeth, soft everywhere and virtually useless one on one with even the smallest predator. It is his mind that elevated him to what he is now, capable of planning his way to success against beasts who could go through a hundred of him before he put a scratch on them. Size and strength were certainly not in his favor - and that's probably why he became what he is now.

Women are instinctive creatures. Of course they respond to things like height and relative advantages or disadvantages that a man has, because on first impression, that's the only difference that can be seen. But every woman knows when she is in the presence of a man who has saddled his mind and made it work for him, she not only feels it emotionally, but knows that it is very rare and incredibly advantageous. But if she sees on the face of a man with disadvantages a crestfallen, defeated look, she can only conclude that they got the better of his mind, and if a man has neither the best tool nor the mind to make good use of a lesser one, what is there for her to surrender to?

Focus on building your mind until it is powerful and capable of making up for any disadvantages.

No, at the moment approaching girls doesn't make me feel happy. It feels like work. Like a box I have to check to have a prayer to make progress in that department. Maybe I can't tell what negative emotion I'm actually feeling. It's a down, sinking feeling. My best guess is it's a belief that the interaction for certain won't go anywhere, even if I get her number, even if I get a date, even if I pull her. Throughout my journey, it's been so incredibly rare to find a legit hook - a girl that doesn't want me to leave. I've also explored if it could be a belief that I'm not good enough for hot girls, or not capable of being the man they want, or not deserving of having a hot girl. Again, can't tell exactly what the emotion is.

Well that is your problem, not anything else but the fact that your state is bad.

It's when I notice she's hot/cute and the kind of girl I want to meet. I kind of have to force myself to make eye contact, and remind myself to smile (overcoming habits here of not doing these). Interestingly, I still feel weird just trying to talk to her even not trying to pick her up or say anything flirty. It's that face they make that's just such a dagger. That disturbed/judgy face that feels like it's saying 'you? seriously? ew. no.' And it's not just the face it's the body language. It just screams that they don't want to talk to me and they're just doing it to be nice. The body language that says they're uncomfortable the more I hang around and engage in conversation. Seeing them turn partially away, or just never fully turn to and engage me. Then I watch when an 'attractive' guy walks up. The girls' faces light up. Huge smiles. Body language directly at the guy. I've seen this when me and a buddy are talking to a girl. The girl seems to always LOCK eyes with my buddy, and she usually won't look at me again unless I say something.

Interesting how deep that went :)

Why can you not enjoy this situation? I enjoy every rejection, no matter how bad. The worst ones are when she simply pretends I don't exist, but even those are funny enough to laugh about.

When girls stares daggers at me, I look her in the eye and smile. It's not like it always works, but I enjoy the feeling of my mind being a fortress against the raging seas. And they see me somehow enjoying it, and even if they really don't like me, it short circuits their programming and they usually end up with some combination of curiosity and petulance on their face.

If she walks away I just laugh and say to myself "probably angry-horny" and move on. But often if you stay relaxed and engaging, moving forward on the basis that she is reacting strongly to you, she will give windows for more.

But the main reason I do it? Because there is nothing better to do, nothing more positive I can experience in that situation.

And besides, what kind of man allows his strength and self-confidence to be sapped at will by a silly, emotional woman? This is an article you need to internalize: https://www.girlschase.com/comment/7098

So yeah the rest of your questions here are what I've been doing when going out the past couple weeks. I've been trying to pay attention and notice when that sinking feeling emerges. It's been going well. The cognitive work I've done has helped me tell when it kicks in. I've noticed it of course when girls blatantly give a harsh rejection, but now I've been able to notice its presence even in far subtler situations.

Anyway, I don't know if you were asking for answers to these questions or more so being rhetorical. Either way, I figured I'd reply to hopefully just open up and see what happens.

That dagger response was sure interesting. Definitely goes back to childhood of seeming to never be a part of the cool kids and never learning how to properly interpret the behavior from others I was receiving. Not sure if this adds much, as either way I still plan to work on all these identified negative, irrational beliefs and replacing them with positive, rational ones.

Thanks again Will. You're the man.

We were all never part of the cool kids group :D that's why we figure things out the hard way. But when we have it figured out, we can make far more use of it than someone just collecting whatever they are given.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
483
You probably wont be friends with them, but to name a few: Prince, Al Pacino, Charlie Chaplin, Pablo Picasso, Bruno Mars, Roger Daltrey… Pretty much most of the rockstars are short, Eddie Vedder, Bruce Dickinson, Thom Yorke, Trent Reznor, Dio, the singer from Greta Van Fleet and I’m sure they’ve had their share.

Also you can buy platform shoes that look cool, these kind of things are in now. I own these:


Or chelsea boots with a bigger heel or you can put hight increase insoles in your shoes. If you look cool, no one will think “oh, he’s trying to make himself look higher” or even if someone does, who cares? I mean girls do it all the time with high heels, why shouldn’t you get an extra inch?
Had no idea that was a thing. Might have to try it since that's presumably wayyyy more comfortable than inserts. I've tried inserts and they were uncomfortable to walk on for an extended period. Also only good for an inch or two before the shoes became impossible to slip on! Do you notice any clear improvements in reactions/results with them? I didn't notice any difference going out with the inserts.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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483
Thanks again @Will_V. Lots to think about, digest, and comprehend here, especially in the context of so many other unlisted variables.
 

Don Giovanni

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Dec 12, 2019
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160
Do you notice any clear improvements in reactions/results with them?
No not realy. They complimented my all stars a few times because they look cool, thats it.

As I said height doesn’t matter imo. But if lack confidence about it, this is one of the things that might help.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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4/27 Update

Some positive updates in the past few weeks.

Been familiarizing myself more with Dr. Robert Glover's work lately, including reading his Dating Essentials book. For getting your head right, he recommends focusing on things like male friendships, and cultivating your passion/purpose.

As I was going down this path, I figured out why I was in a funk lately. I was in loser mentality, or viewed differently, I wasn't finding any small victories. No winner effect. So I examined my life to try and find some small victories I could do that aren't women related. I chose to improve my finances. I switched to a gym with a much cheaper fee, and I started cutting back on eating out.

I felt good for achieving these small victories, and this alone snapped me out of it.

Also around this time I got a random invite to a speed dating event. I went, had a good time, and matched with three girls. Met up with two of them each to grab a drink, and pulled both home on the first date. I think at this point I feel very comfortable going for the pull on the first date. I forget where I saw the advice, but if you stop thinking about game, just chat for 30-60 minutes, then invite them over, your odds are going to be wayyyy higher than overgaming and being in your head the whole time. So that's all I did. And they agreed to come over.

Unfortunately no sex to report yet. First girl put up firm LMR, but so far is a few texts away from a second date. This has never happened to me before. Anyone I've ever 'blown it' with previously I never heard from again.

With the other girl, unfortunately I had dick issues again. Nothing but high anxiety. But this girl also was a first. She agreed to come over a second time, we watched a movie, I had anxiety again and didn't feel comfortable making a move, and we already have a third date planned.

What's helped me a TON with these girls is going more down the path of embracing my vulnerabilities and communicating it with them, rather than trying to hide anything. The first girl I communicated them with her and that seemed to genuinely increase her interest in me. The second girl it hasn't come up yet, and my plan is to communicate even more on our third date - basically not hide that I want to have sex with her, but I have anxiety, maybe even that it's causing issues.

Meanwhile, I also have a date with a third girl this week. Again, I plan to not hide my vulnerabilities and imperfections and to embrace them, own them, and present them as things that are great about me. Finally, I have a seemingly warm fourth lead from an app, so perhaps that will turn into a fourth girl to meet up with soon.

This positive upswing has also helped me view the previous issue I was trying to communicate from a more rational perspective. So a little bit of progress there.

Hoping I can report some legit sex soon.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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5/13

First, an update on the girls previously mentioned. For the girl I saw for a third time, it was really easy. We went out for a bit, she came over, and this time I made a move. She gave strong LMR even after all my persisting. But her compliance is still sky high and she's down to come over another time, almost any time. I've never dealt with a high-compliance girl like this before. Will enjoy while it lasts.

Best part about this last encounter is that even though we didn't go all the way, I could tell Elder Jr was significantly improved! I was anxious when we started messing around, but after about 30 minutes of foreplay, I relaxed. Because the anxiety was so reduced, I was able to get the biggest erection I've ever had in bed with a girl, and Jr could handle more stimulation without feeling like he was instantly going to explode. I even took her hand and had her stroke Jr - this is the most contact Jr has ever been able to tolerate by far! I'm SUPER EXCITED that the work and techniques I've been putting in to get Jr working seem to be helping!

The other mentioned girls all ended up flaking.

Now for the other part of my update. I think I've been making progress on getting a clearer grasp of the attraction issue I've tried describing in previous posts. I know my mind and comments have been all over the place on the subject, so I'm just going to write what I've been thinking lately. Not necessarily with any context or referring to any particular previous comment.

The issue I've been trying to find a clear answer for is, stated generally and succinctly: When I approach hot girls (translation: girls who qualify as me 'aiming higher'), they're effectively never interested. When I sit back and try to wait for IOIs, they effectively don't exist. The conundrum I've been considering is: Do I therefore work on being more attractive, or am I fine and just not approaching enough women?

Recently I rediscovered the concept of SMV - Sexual Market Value. The idea is that in a social situation, your attractiveness can have a kind of score relative to other guys. In other words, it's not fixed - it can be a changing metric. If you're an average western guy and we plop you into a less developed country (or something like that), you'll have a higher SMV. The following traits are now working for you: you're foreign, exotic, you stand out from the rest, presumably far wealthier than the rest, possibly taller than the rest, etc.

If you're an average western guy but we plop you into a model and star athlete convention, you'll have a lower SMV: The other men there are athletic, very good looking, and wealthy or potential to be wealthy. There's not much you can do. You're going to have a difficult time.

I'm liking this metric because I think it helps illustrate what I've seen and experienced on my journey:

Q: Why is it so rare to find women, especially women I like (me 'aiming higher'), to take interest in me?
A: My natural SMV just isn't that high. Even though I hit so many of the standard recommendations (fit/muscles, good haircut, good facial hair, clean, good looking clothes that fit, good posture, good social skills, etc), I still have the drawbacks of being short and let's just say I don't look like a model.

Q: Why don't attractive women try to get my attention in bars and clubs?
A: Why would they? Just going based off what they see, the majority of guys in that venue are taller, also have muscles and decent clothes, and many have other additions like tattoos. In essence, I look like everyone else *minus* some features. There's no way I can have a high SMV just walking into the usual bar or club (at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why haven't I had any success from day game?
A: Why would you? A girl sees your confidence in approaching her, but again, that's about it. She has so many other sources to find more attractive guys, that your confidence, charm, and conversation skills just won't be enough. Your SMV just isn't high enough compared to her other options (again, at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why don't I do better with online dating?
A: Competition, if nothing other than the sheer number of guys on apps. If the ratio is really something like 70-30 guys to girls, then girls have no choice but to spend their brief time assessing the top guys. My SMV will always be lower here (again, at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why do I seem to get stronger interest at speed dating kind of events?
A: I think one reason for sure is that these events seem to attract older, more desperate women, but besides that, they also seem to attract needy, awkward men. It makes sense there that my SMV might actually be high at events like this, compared to the other guys in attendance.

If these SMV observations are fair and accurate, what can be gathered from it?

In my opinion, the best takeaway is to stop focusing too much on 'absolute' SMV - things like looks and appearance. Don't get me wrong, one should always keep working to improve these. I just mean, for example, a decently dressed short guy becoming a well dressed short guy probably isn't going to be a night-and-day kind of transformation.

The better thing to do would be to focus on improving 'situational' SMV - such as, stop going to venues where you're always going to be lower SMV and instead find or create situations where you'll be high SMV.

I think this makes a lot of sense and is something that can make a BIG impact, rather than a couple percentage point improvement.

This is what I've started thinking about previously and what I'm continuing to think about. What hobbies or activities can put me in a high SMV position? Such as a leadership position, or on a stage? Karaoke? Organizing events?

At this point I have to figure out something that I want to do that I'm genuinely interested in. I want to do something that I'm doing not just to get pussy. Something I will enjoy. Nothing has ever really been a strong calling for me, so I might just have to hold my nose, try stuff, and see if anything clicks that I'm good at.
 

fog

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Elder, I suggest you look into state control as a way to increase your SMV temporarily.

With solid state control skills, you can release a flood of chemicals into your brain.

And the more brain chemicals you release, the more intense your state gets.

And the more intense your state gets...the more high value you come across.

Think back to the times in your life where you were riding the euphoric waves of happiness. Or when you melted into a puddle of serene calmness while petting an animal.

These are the some of the feelings you can tap into on command...to generate interest from higher quality women.

With a bit of work....you can do this effortlessly. And accomplish your goal of increasing your SMV.
 
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ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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@fog - Thank you! Thanks for sharing that awesome series and for reminding me that I left out of my update a bit on this exact topic!

I've been working on exactly this!

There are two thoughts/cues that I came across lately that revealed some stuff to me. Those cues are: 1. Your state of peace already exists inside you. Find it. and 2. Imagine that every time you walk into a room, you make all the women wet.

These are examples of exactly what you're talking about. When I do these exercises, what I found is that I can actually feel my body change and relax.

For #1, my eyes close a bit, my chest puffs up a little, I breathe deeper, and my face relaxes.

For #2, pretty much the same but with the addition of that natural flirtatious smirk that's been mentioned in many GC articles.

I'm interpreting this as that my natural appearance/vibe/state just isn't great. As I've discussed with @Will_V previously, there's obviously some default anxiety on my face that I need to work on getting rid of.

I'm excited to keep working on this. It'll take a LONG time, but there's a lot of room for improvement here.

I will mention also for the sake of discussion, I still have doubts that these improvements will have any noticeable effect on my results. There have been some times where I've been in a great 'state,' and it didn't make a difference as far as getting attention from beautiful women.

Doesn't matter. I'm still going to continue working on it regardless.
 
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