Ex-stripper granddaughter and early “will let you know” frame problem

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
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This particular girl I  met in a quite atypical fashion — I  usually do day  game — so before I  get to my present concerns, the meeting itself deserves some explanation!


1. Meeting The Girl

I  have a friend, Justin, who Iʼve known a few years through our involvement in the production end of certain cultural events in our city. Iʼm not from that culture, but have found it interesting, and also the women are a  lot prettier to  me than the cityʼs average demographic.

I  should probably note that Justin both sees  me as quite the ladiesʼ  man, and talks like one himself — and that itʼs respected in his culture in a way that itʼs not in the cuckold  West.

Anyway, Justin had me over to his home for Christmas. I  hadnʼt known any of his family apart from his wife. Other than Darion, another friend, most of the guests were Justinʼs adult children — mostly daughters, at  least six of  them, — and their own mostly small children.

Three of the daughters I  found pretty cute. I  was really drawn to one of them, Tizzia, who Iʼd met before the others arrived. Early  20s. Bubbly personality and manner of speech. Attractive face, unfortunately adorned with some really gawdy cosmetics. Nice body; sheʼd later tell me she used to be a stripper. Iʼm not usually as much into the light-skinned black girls (my  ideal  is one of those tall, midnight  black, cherub-faced South  Sudanese), but I  still like the really cute ones like this  one. She has a small child who presently lives with the grandparents while she lives alone.

Iʼm actually not sure if Tizzia is Justinʼs daughter, granddaughter, or maybe even grand‑stepdaughter. I  thought Iʼd heard granddaughter but canʼt remember  100% and heʼs since implied otherwise — maybe trying not to seem old, hahaha! By ages, she could be his grandchild. Heʼs easily old enough to be my father, and although I  donʼt look it, I  in turn am somewhat old enough to be her father,  lol.

Here and there I  indulged my temptations to check out Tizzia — mostly when she wasnʼt looking, although Iʼm not that worried if a girl does catch me, because Iʼve learned not to be ashamed of it. There were a  few points where she randomly looked at me in a way that made me wonder if maybe I  was having an effect on her, too. Sometimes I  intentionally didnʼt look. Other times our eyes met for a  few moments without saying anything.

It felt a little bit strange and scandalous to be sexually attracted to my friendʼs daughter or granddaughter or whatever the heck she was, but eventually I  gave  in to nature and decided that Iʼd try to seduce her if the chance arose. Resisting wouldʼve been hard enough for me that if I  succeed, it would be equally true to say that she  seduced  me. Really, itʼs nature that seduces men and women  both.

Certain man/woman pairs I  feel just naturally have a certain innate sexual tension between them... really subtle, but there. Unless you spoil  it. There was one point where it wouldʼve been natural to sit beside Tizzia due  to it being the only spot left to sit, but I  sensed that doing  so at that point may have killed the tension, so I  stood briefly instead, and then left  the  room.

I  did talk to the girl at a  few points during the get-together, but only briefly. Iʼm very aware that most interaction that doesnʼt specifically help a seduction instead by default harms  it, so I  try to keep interactions minimal where I  donʼt feel Iʼll be able to direct them the  way  I  want.

At first sheʼd been a bit reserved with me — even speaking of  me indirectly in front of me. She became friendlier once she saw that her (grand?)parents and Darion like  me.

Our first conversation was opened casually by her, and related to the cultural events Justin and I  are involved in. I  was friendly but wandered off after a minute.

Later, I  opened her while she was alone in the kitchen and we talked just for a minute or  two before I  left.

One of the other daughters casually opened me a couple times and I  was personable but neither of  us made any effort to converse further. She was fairly cute too, but I  suspected she was in a more serious relationship. I  mostly conversed with Justin and Darion. Of the mass of people there, most were female or  kids,  lol.

At some point in the evening, with the small living room packed with little kids and their presents, Tizzia sat on the plush arm of the chair I  was  on such that her ass was literally right in front of me. Well, there werenʼt a  lot of places for her to sit, and indeed one of her (I  guess)  sisters was plopped on the other arm, albeit a little less directly. God, what a tease! I  wanted to touch Tizzia, but given the context I  had no idea how to do it smoothly, so I  didnʼt. What could I  have done? Playfully written on her back, maybe? Hahaha! I  wish  Iʼd  think of stuff like that on  the  spot!!!

Actually, I  coulda played with her easily. Like, when she goes to pass  by me, stick out my legs to block her, with a crafty smile. It kills  me how much shit I  always think  of only after the fact. I  despise having been raised as a shy, harmless little mouse.


2. More Substantial Interaction

Some time in the night, Justin set out to drive Darion, Tizzia and myself home.

As we were going to Justinʼs car, Tizzia remarked to me, “I  hope  you liked my  family.”

I  lucked out and we both ended up in the back seat, albeit with a large physical obstacle between  us that mostly prevented any kino (which  I  also hadnʼt done  earlier) except once. Darion rode shotgun. This is where I  interacted with Tizzia much more substantially. As I  chatted with her, Justin and Darion engaged in separate conversation, so although we technically didnʼt have any privacy, we were afforded some measure  of  it.

I  started by asking her what made her want 3  inch eyelashes. (I  was  exaggerating on purpose, although next time Iʼm going  with  10  inch.) She related it to her interest in cosmetics and explained they come in  different lengths. I  told her with sincerity that sheʼd be prettier without  it. She was like, “aww  thank  you,” and remarked she doesnʼt always wear cosmetics and hadnʼt the day before. But she lives downtown and you never know who youʼre going to run into, so she doesnʼt like to go  out plain. Told her she doesnʼt give herself enough credit.

She said who knows, she might run into (as  Iʼm  thinking, “let  me  guess,  Drake”) Drake. Teased her over the fact that I  was just about to say Drake. Asked her, “do  you  think  Drake is actually gonna care if you have 3  inch  eyelashes?” She  explained  it as being more  of a confidence boost. I  accepted this and segued into her interests.

Tizzia was doing the large majority of the talking, which I  felt was fine. She opened up a fair bit. The majority of  this was on her business ambitions; on one hand, I  was hoping to get a bit more personal, but on the other hand this seems like a huge part of her psyche, so in a way it  was.

At some point in the course of explaining some personal strategy, she remarked, “if  you  and  I  married, letʼs say, and you were a [professional  of  a particular field relevant  to  her], then Iʼd try to feed  off  of your knowledge of  [that  field]”. The possible significance of her having stated this in the  second  person did not escape me. This sort of role  playing is a seduction tactic when the shoe is on the other foot, and Iʼve only had women do this spontaneously on extremely rare occasions. Hell, I  donʼt even do  it  myself.

But since I  firmly regard marriage for a male as “game  over, you  lose”, I  most probably leaked some slightly disapproving body language, though I  didnʼt really address it one way or another overtly. I  didnʼt take the chance to expand on her role  playing, though maybe I  should  have.

When discussing her ambitions, she volunteered that she doesnʼt want another kid. However, she quickly pointed out that sheʼs spontaneous and might change her mind quickly with the right guy. I  almost wonder if the about‑turn at the  end was a product of not wanting to disqualify herself. I  had been silently relieved at her not wanting a next kid, but only because she isnʼt Nuer or Dinka or even particularly tall or dark, and because she loves cosmetics. As much as Iʼm crazy to, I  actually do want a kid, and though I  hadnʼt said  it, I  almost wonder if I  had leaked some unconscious disappointment at her having just diminished my prospects of knocking  her  up.

She did at some point mention incidentally something like, “my  relationship is good, but I  need  space.” Nothing in her body language or context made it seem to  me like this relationship is  serious.

At some other point while discussing her ambitions, the girl said something rather scandalous, at which point I  addressed my friend in mock disapproval, “Justin  did  you  hear what your progeny  just  said?!?” From the corner of my  eye I  booked a sheepish smile from her. Hahaha I  love doing shit like that, as rare as the opportunities come  to  me.

He confusedly stammered out, “What?”, to which I  replied, “Never  mind.” I  donʼt think the  two were listening to us at  all. I  think we had lost  them at the eyelashes and her being pretty  bit.    XD

The girl is quite ambitious, albeit in a slightly scatterbrained way. She told me sheʼd previously been a stripper but now wants to create an empire, based on several loosely related and unrelated avenues. She manifested a certain degree of indecision and ambivalence in her exact approach.

I  didnʼt reveal much about myself (she  was naturally very talkative and I  just rolled  with  it), although I  did drop some slight hints that I  might have knowledge or connections relevant to some of her pursuits. I  made a few off-hand (actual) suggestions. I  tried not to get into that too  much as I  didnʼt want to create a dynamic of being of more practical than sexual use  to  her.

I  made a point to try to grab her number at a high point, and it seemed to work well.

Normally Iʼd have proposed a meet right there, but I  was unfortunately just a tad inhibited by a parent being in earshot. (Mental  note:  the  next  time youʼre hitting  on a girl itʼs somewhat scandalous to be hitting  on, just own  it. Be shameless or else donʼt do  it at  all. Thereʼs no point taking the risk of getting caught doing something if youʼre doing it ineffectively. Like my childhood friend whose dad gave him an extra  good ass  whooping not because he was caught shoplifting, but because what he teefed wasnʼt  even  valuable.    LMAO.)

Instead I  just said that Iʼd like to hear more about her ideas, and passed her my phone. She entered her number without resistance.

I  tried to text her right then. When she didnʼt get it after a minute, she recited her number. Sheʼd gotten a digit wrong in  typing  it. After correcting, I  called  her, and saw she got the call, at which point I  reminded her my name so  as to save my  contact.

We chatted a little bit more. She cut herself short due to our reaching her home, at which point she said that we would talk more, and in a tone that suggested she actually wanted  to.


3. Risk Management

[Iʼm comfortable with this part, so feel free to skip this  section.]

This approach was different from most I  make. Though I  have done  it before, I  rarely hit  on girls in social circle, preferring day  game. Social circle is unique among the major styles of game in that, if you fuck  up badly enough, there could be repercussions beyond just an ego bruising. And someoneʼs daughter is about the riskiest social circle pull you could possibly attempt! It doesnʼt help that Justin has proven to be helpful in getting opportunities to hit  on random women in contexts where the demographics are heavily skewed in  favor of my taste in women, and in some cases with very good social  proof.

I  didnʼt contact Tizzia on the 26th, mainly because I  wasnʼt entirely sure if I  wanted to take that risk, and had to really think about  it.

I  finally decided the possible benefits somewhat outweigh the risks, provided Iʼm careful. (Or,  in  other  words, sex hormones have completely destroyed  my  brain.)

In particular, I  decided on something Iʼm going  to do if I  get the girl out for coffee. When, as she probably will, she exposes her mercenary and unbridled ambition, Iʼm going to say to her, “Just  to  warn  you, if you  and  I  have a baby, sheʼs going  to  be trying to take  over the world by  age  three.” Watch her reaction, and if she laughs or smiles, momentarily grab her thigh with a sly smile. And again watch her reaction.

Some readers may wonder just how such a brazen act could possibly constitute risk management!

The answer lies in what my mental survey deemed the most credible, severe, and imminent risk associated with trying to seduce Tizzia. It relates to the mechanism I  usually use to pull a  girl  home.

I  happen to have a realllllly solid, seemingly harmless excuse with which to invite a girl home, which I  enjoy as a result of my line of work. I  pretty much always use this because it tends to get very little resistance.

There is, however, a risk that since the excuse is so solid, itʼs possible that a girl could assume entirely platonic motives for bringing her home. So  far, women have not been really offended by my attempts to escalate once home, but it remains a possibility. Normally, thatʼs a risk that I  just accept, because, well, if I  do happen to get an, “ewwww  you  creep!” type response, all Iʼve really lost is that one girl. Well, unless I  ever want to become a  politician.    XD

In this particular case, however, thatʼs a reaction I  really donʼt want, and one that could potentially cost me a friend and potentially even a  lot of opportunity with other more random  women.

Chase has mentioned that what makes a person a “creep” is that they hide  their true intentions. So, basically, I  have to make sure that I  donʼt do that with Tizzia. I  have to make  sure that if she comes home with me, sheʼs not going to be surprised when I  try to have  sex with her. Making sure that she knows what I  want beforehand, if even only unconsciously or vaguely, would in my opinion make  it remarkably unlikely that sheʼll be creeped  out when I  try to escalate. It does increase the risk that she resists coming home, but in this particular case I  would much rather that she decline my suggestion to come home, than have her come  home and then freak  out when I  try to seduce  her.

So why not just use a weaker, more transparent excuse? Like Netflix and chill? Because I  think thereʼs still benefit in using my airtight excuse, in  that it gives her more plausible deniability. I  just need to make sure that Iʼve inoculated her beforehand with my sexual  intentions.


4. Next Contact and A Problem

Now decided on going ahead, I  texted Tizzia on the  27th (yesterday):


9:57a.m. Phoenix:   Howʼs Tizzia™?  Figure out how to siphon  off Justin  Bieberʼs YouTube  views  yet?

2:13p.m. Tizzia:     Lol

2:36p.m. Tizzia:     Hi

3:11p.m. Phoenix:   So, Tizzia.  Iʼd love to hear more about your quirky ideas.    (;  We should meet up for coffee  soon!

3:35p.m. Tizzia:     Sure
3:36p.m. Tizzia:     Iʼll let u know the best time


Oooou, I  did not like that. Thatʼs one of the “feminine classic” frames, the “I  will  let  you  know” frame! Translation: “Iʼm  worth  more  than  you so youʼre going to sit  around waiting for my text like  a  lost  puppy.” In any case, the ball being in a girlʼs court is generally not a good thing. Sheʼll probably forget, and then reminding her makes you look desperate.

I  sometimes get this in response to a specific date proposed, but this is the first time Iʼve gotten it just from having proposed the idea of a date. I  couldnʼt help but be pessimistic, but I  was also reminded that I  hadnʼt proposed a specific day. Iʼd have usually done that in any text about a date. Then again, Iʼd have usually proposed the basic idea of the date in  person at the time of meeting. Recall that Iʼd pussyfooted a bit in  person due  to her dad being  nearby.

The correct response to reverse this frame is normally to retract the specific date proposed and conclude something like, “weʼll  do  it another  time.” Unfortunately, by not having immediately proposed a specific date, I  left myself without this  option.

Another problem is that for the next I  guess week or  so, sheʼs off school, and this could possibly make it much easier to meet her very soon than it might be later, although of course I  donʼt really  know.

This imperative to schedule it soon versus the need to reverse the frame by retracting and having to “let  her  know” created a conflict as  to the best manner of response. I  made a creative attempt to combine the two requirements:


4:33p.m. Phoenix:   k.  Tomorrow or Mon are good.  Shit is a bit hectic after New  Years, so otherwise Iʼll have to let you know once I  see what my schedule  is  like.


A day later she has not replied. Between that, the briefness of her replies, and her “let  you  know” frame, I  got a little disappointed and started thinking maybe sheʼs not interested. I  certainly could have been a little more bold and sexy with her when I  had the chance, but (i)  thatʼs  something Iʼm still struggling to achieve in the moment (I  usually  only realize what I  should have done after the  fact — Iʼm too in  my  head in  the  moment), and (ii)  I  was  particularly afraid of being  bold given the social  context.

Iʼm also wondering if maybe I  jumped the gun with the date proposal. My thinking had been, I  had already warmed her  up a fair bit in the car, so I  felt that idle chit‑chat on SMS would just be unproductive and miss the brief window of opportunity. The girl used to be a stripper so Iʼm sure sheʼs accustomed to beta  males trying to small‑talk their way into her panties. But perhaps I  was wrong and I  needed to warm her  up a  little more on  text?

Anyway, I  also need to figure out what to do next. I  donʼt want to give up too easily, although I  also donʼt want to become a pest, because again, thereʼs much more social risk here than  usual.

I  was thinking to shoot her a quick text on New Years.. maybe:

Tizzia, Happy New Year!  Suggested resolution: shorter eyelashes    (;===

Iʼm not always a fan of sending “special occasion” messages, especially to girls who arenʼt being entirely co‑operative. It seems to risk being too nice‑guy.

But thereʼs another possible explanation. During our chats in person thus far, she had been so talkative that Iʼve barely said a peep about myself. While thereʼs something to be said for being mysterious, taken too far, it could I  suppose cause a lack of comfort or attainability. I  wonder if thatʼs an issue and if  so how I  could fix  it at  this  point.

I  also wonder if I  should mention or ask about her kid. I  usually avoid that, because it seems like an excellent way to wind  up in the boyfriend  zone.

And finally I  also wonder if I  might profit more from calling  her next  time. Maybe on New  Years?

Would love to hear any observations or ideas. (No  need  to  tell  me I  need to talk to a  lot more girls. Thatʼs dependent on moving to Africa, which I  have been actively researching again  as  of  late.)
  
 
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