Is Game Fake, and Are Muscles the Trump Card?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
DrexelScott said:
I couldn't agree less that height and muscle are the core determinants of having a masculine presence. Attitude rules over everything else. That's the problem here--you aren't in touch enough with just how valuable a man is to a woman, WHEN HE MAKES HER FEEL THE RIGHT WAY. Everything is about the way she FEELS in your presence,
Just fuckin lol at this. Not sure if serious. Ken, you're welcome to PM me if you want advice, I'd just need to know a bit more about where you are at with women and your situation in general to give solid pointers. But first:






You were saying Drexel?

I don't even need to write about this at length. To any guy, just use your head: an unattractive girl (to you) grabs your dick in the club, but she's really confident about it, what goes through your head? Now Lindsey Pelas, Playboy model who was a bitch when you first said hi, comes up and grabs your dick at the club, what goes through your head?

Where do guys get this logic that they can just magically conjure up "confidence" or "instill feelings" to get laid or attractive girls? It doesn't work that way. This is as laughable as when some women say "He should like me for my personality, I make people feel good!" despite being unattractive for the guy she wants. Even funnier is that some guys around here make fun of these women while spouting off the same bullshit. Reverse the genders/situations of Drexel's statements and you'll see how ridiculous it gets:

Fat on her everywhere but she is extremely grounded and most importantly, KNOWS HER VALUE.
I couldn't agree less that weight and facial aesthetics are the core determinants of having a feminine presence. Attitude rules over everything else.
How's that $200 DVD set or Drexel's "The Sexualizer" looking now?


Also just lol again at propping Mystery up like he actually knew anything about girls. I'll just skip criticizing his useless advice and go right into looking at who he is stuck with now: http://oi42.tinypic.com/2rc23qd.jpg

Is that one of the "hottest women around" Drexel?

DrexelScott said:
Mystery is 6'7" or something, thin as a rail and has been with some of the hottest women around.

Anyways, this "I can just make her feel the right way" to compensate for a lack of money, looks, or status is crap. Look, if a guy just invested his time into a gym membership instead of trying to find a million ways around it, he'd get 1000x better success. But if anyone needs even more proof of this, here:

Roosh V, PUA:



Christian Guzman, bodybuilding entrepreneur:


Christian and his ex girlfriend:


Does anyone really think Roosh can compete with Christian on any level with women?



But nice sponsored link there Drexel. Guys need yet another near $200 product just to get a girl? Really? Your entire post was written to market your products brah. I usually just criticize someone's points while refraining from going after the person talking, but this crosses a line. I get it, we all gotta make that green, but giving advice that can really fuck with someone's life just so you can make some money? Tsk tsk. Trying to con a guy just wanting answers into shelling out some serious cash for bullshit is not cool.

And to any guy considering buying into Drexel's "The Release Technique" program, Google around. People have said the "The Release Technique" and its affiliates have placed fraudulent charges on their credit cards amongst other shit. If you're not finding complaints, you're finding this program popping up on cult and New Age spiritual scam sites giving it fake positive reviews.

Drexel, you mad bro?

Also if anyone, maybe Chase or Franco, could aware me, I thought the rules were:
"1. Do not spam, sell, hawk wares, or push your products or services here. These boards are for discussion, not marketing or advertising. If you are caught violating this rule, you will be warned, suspended, or banned."
That's a mighty curious quote.
 

Franco

Chieftan
tribal-elder
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
3,598
Location
Southern California
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Gentlemen,

As far as looks go, the topic has already been addressed multiple times on this website here, here, and here. No need to beat the dead horse here; if you want to improve your looks, it's certainly going to up your success rate with women. Looks give you passive value, and the better you look, the more often women are going to give you good receptions. That being said, no one should tell you "don't worry about your looks at all" just like no one should tell you, "don't work on 'game' at all" -- both have value, and both will increase your success rate should you choose to work on either one or both of them.

King Bert said:
Also if anyone, maybe Chase or Franco, could aware me, I thought the rules were:

"1. Do not spam, sell, hawk wares, or push your products or services here. These boards are for discussion, not marketing or advertising. If you are caught violating this rule, you will be warned, suspended, or banned."
That's a mighty curious quote.
Drexel is a GirlsChase contributor and has been around for awhile; if he has his own styles/techniques he wants to market, that's up to him. He's been approved by Chase.

- Franco
 

ProblemSolving

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
456
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Franco said:
Gentlemen,

As far as looks go, the topic has already been addressed multiple times on this website here, here, and here. No need to beat the dead horse here; if you want to improve your looks, it's certainly going to up your success rate with women. Looks give you passive value, and the better you look, the more often women are going to give you good receptions. That being said, no one should tell you "don't worry about your looks at all" just like no one should tell you, "don't work on 'game' at all" -- both have value, and both will increase your success rate should you choose to work on either one or both of them.
Solid response.

Look, Ken has been at this for 2 years and has approached countless girls at this point and has not received a date yet. It is very unlikely that he has Approach Anxiety or is very nervous when he approaches. Furthermore, after reading his posts, he doesn't sound like he has a weird or off-putting personality. At this point, I would bet money that his ability to approach is fine, he just needs to improve his appearance.

For example, say you're a business man that's selling a new product. You've spent 2 years peddling your product to countless prospects and no one has bought it. At some point, you can't keep blaming failure on the sales pitch. At some point, you have to look at the product itself. In Ken's case, I'm betting his sales pitch is fine, but the product needs improvement.
 

Franco

Chieftan
tribal-elder
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
3,598
Location
Southern California
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

PS,

Look, Ken has been at this for 2 years and has approached countless girls at this point and has not received a date yet. It is very unlikely that he has Approach Anxiety or is very nervous when he approaches. Furthermore, after reading his posts, he doesn't sound like he has a weird or off-putting personality. At this point, I would bet money that his ability to approach is fine, he just needs to improve his appearance.
My post was mostly about the general conversation going on in the follow-up posts to Ken's original post. Didn't mean to make it sound like it was directed toward Ken -- my apologies if it came across that way!

I'd bet that Ken likely has room for improvement in both areas. I will never tell a guy to not hit the gym or not hit the mall and improve his fundamentals; whatever you can afford to do to increase your looks is a plus for seduction. If you can afford a gym membership and can slot in regular times to go on a weekly basis, then it will help both your self-confidence and your positive initial reception rate from women. Likewise, if you can afford to spend time approaching women regularly and practice your approach, your conversations, and your ability to grab phone numbers, then you'll also be working toward more success as well.

Seduction is one of the ultimate paradigms when it comes to "you get out of it what you put into it." So if you work on your fundamentals AND your game, you will have tons of success in the future. =)

- Franco
 

Bboy100

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
1,107
Location
The Milky Way Galaxy
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Ken,

I can understand the frustration you're feeling. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 20 years old. Now, I'm 23 and I've been with more than 20 women, am in relationships with two different girls and I'm worlds away from the guy I used to be. So don't lose faith. Know that your situation can change.

Having said that, I have two things of note to say:
1. You're either not working as hard on this as you say you are. Because even if you're unattractive, if you've been doing this for two years, you should've been able to get some dates via sheer numbers alone.
2. You're SUUPER uncalibrated. Like, you're the weird guy at school. Not just a little weird. Straight up, people don't want to be seen around you. I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm saying this to let you know where you're at so we can fix it.

If this is the case, understand that this isn't even a matter of improving your game yet. It's a matter of developing basic social skills. I read through your past posts, and while its clear to me that you're inexperienced, I can't say for sure exactly what puts people off. So my advice to you is...try to get some honest feedback. Do you have any socially perceptive friends, family members, co-workers...anyone who will be brutally honest with you if you ask them? Go to him/her. Ask them what kind of impression you give off and why. Let them know why you're asking and that you're looking for constructive criticism. If they're honest with you, they'll probably be able to tell you one or two things you're doing which are super weird to other people (sometimes, these things are really easy to fix!). Whatever they tell you, work on them.

Also, tell me more about your situation & I'll be able to give you better feedback. Here are a few questions I have for you:
1. Women aside, can you make platonic friends relatively easily?
2. How do people usually react to you in social situations? Do they usually want to talk to you? Or do they avoid you?
3. What specifically do you do to meet women?
4. Do you have any platonic friends which are women?
5. Where do you go to socialize? Generally speaking, how do you meet people (men and women alike)? Is it just cold approaching women, or do you have a circle of friends?
6. Do you suffer from social anxiety, depression, or anything else which would make socializing and being yourself difficult?

I understand that some of these questions are pretty personal. So if you don't want to answer them in this thread, feel free to PM me :)

P.S.

As for the gym discussion everyone else is having...Franco is on point. Going to the gym will definitely help. A lot. Saying that looks and physique don't matter at all is ludacris. No matter how good your game, your results will be better if you get those things handled. Having said that, they're also not a magic bullet. Everything matters. There's no one thing you can do which will take you from 0 to 100.

So basically, you want to get to a point where fitness doesn't count against you (i.e. thin enough that you don't look fat & out of shape and muscular enough that she has some level of trust in your physical capabilities). Any further efforts to buff up/get in better shape will yield in less return on investment than doing other things to improve your attractiveness. So no, you definitely don't have to look anything like the guys in the pics linked above. But it would probably be best that you try to put on at least a little more muscle than you have now. 2-3 months of eating right and being in the gym would probably get you where you need to be.
 

Rain

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
168
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

If world war 3 happened tomorrow and food became scarce, surely the bigger guys would win most of the time by pure force, as they would be able to fight for food and be better protectors?

Granted, this guy went from being skinny to buff and his results didn't seem to improve that much with women? He put photos up.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=15833
 

ProblemSolving

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
456
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Franco said:
My post was mostly about the general conversation going on in the follow-up posts to Ken's original post. Didn't mean to make it sound like it was directed toward Ken -- my apologies if it came across that way!
No worries. My post was directed at the whole thread as well. I just quoted your response because I agreed with it :)

Rain said:
Granted, this guy went from being skinny to buff and his results didn't seem to improve that much with women? He put photos up.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=15833
But did you read the thread? The guy didn't even approach girls. You can't build a respectable physique and then expect girls to hop on your cock. That's not how it works unfortunately haha.
 

ProblemSolving

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
456
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

DrexelScott said:
They'll want to, but most of the time the guy screws it up and the girl walks away disappointed.
Agreed. Most guys get into bodybuilding because they think that once their body is good enough then they won't need to grow some balls and actually approach girls.

Guys struggling with girls tend to fall into one of two categories. Either they don't approach enough girls or they haven't made themselves attractive enough to the opposite sex. Both solutions are simple, but they do require some effort.
 

CaptainHenley

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
118
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Rain said:
If world war 3 happened tomorrow and food became scarce, surely the bigger guys would win most of the time by pure force, as they would be able to fight for food and be better protectors?

Granted, this guy went from being skinny to buff and his results didn't seem to improve that much with women? He put photos up.
https://boards.girlschase.com/viewt ... 46&t=15833
Stop throwing stupid shit like that out there, I see this way too often.

Supposedly "if things went south, tall/strong/blonde/black/(insert whatever shit you want in here) people would have it better.

Stalin and Churchill were short as fuck.

So was hitler.

So was Lawrence of Arabia.

So were the Greeks and the Romans compared to northern "barbarians".

Where is your theory now?

The thing is, if lets say 3 men are equally shitty, obviously the taller one will have the advantage, cause well, thats the only thing that differentiates him from the others in a good way.
But if another guy is shorter but overshines him in other aspects, he will win every time.

Frank Sinatra was 5'7, and everyone remembers him.

Boghart was 5' 8 i think (not sure, I have better things to do with my life), and he is considered the best actor in film Noire.

And of course, you got other people who were/are tall and still do good for themselves or bad.

Deduction?

Height doesnt matter in the end. Simple as that.

And dont give me that shit about research that says taller people are more succesful. That has the same reasoning behind it as the gender wage gap thing.

The research doesnt say "people over 6'", it says "taller". Now what does taller mean?

Simple, a person who is 5'7 is taller than a person who is 5'5. Thats what it means.

And I read the research, and it said that people who are around 5'10 and above are more likely to be succesful, CEOs etc. than men who are 5'5 or something along those lines.

Which if you know how averages work, makes total sense. Very few men are 5'5 (nothing wrong with it, the same way very few people are 6'5), so it only makes sense for them to be less likely to be CEOs, because the number of people who are 5'5 is less than those who are average height.

So please, stop that bullshit.

There are many tall people around, nothing is given to them for that reason only.

Sure, they might look better in the first few seconds, but not after that.

I myself am 6 feet tall, and no one ever said to me, here, take this and this and that, just because you are 3 inches above average height.
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

@Franco

Franco said:
Drexel is a GirlsChase contributor and has been around for awhile; if he has his own styles/techniques he wants to market, that's up to him. He's been approved by Chase.
Oh wow, so if I'm friends with Chase or I'm a contributor, I get permission to hawk whatever I like, just because I want to? Sweet man. Hey Chase we should go out for drinks sometime. Oh, I also have a program that instantly grows a dick by an inch, hope you don't mind me posting about it. It really works (because I say it does), and only costs $197.

What's truly odd is I don't see this little disclaimer in the rules, looks like they need to be updated to "can spam or sell products if approved." Franco, do you see how dishonest this policy is? Contributors get free reign to hawk their products, really? Do you see how that calls into question the quality of this site?


@DrexelScott

Back to you man.

2. You wrote, "Where do guys get this logic that they can just magically conjure up "confidence" or "instill feelings" to get laid or attractive girls? It doesn't work that way." Actually, it does. The entire existence of PUA is a testament to the fact that learning confidence and how to instill the right feelings in women is what creates results. Otherwise, the only advice in this market would be "get ripped." Even Arnold Schwarzenegger said "If you want to get laid, there are much faster ways to do it than working out a lot."
Spoken like a true marketer. Let's ignore that you didn't source that Arnold quote. PUA is a testament to snake oil salesman selling dreams to guys, leading them on with promises they can get laid with any girl despite their shortcomings. You're either a shill or you legit bought into the bullshit. I can't tell.

Most PUAs look like this:





And claim to get girls like this:




When those girls date guys like this:




PUAs try to sell the idea that this is not the case. They sell false hope and hokey methods to turn a buck. Just like you, my friend.


But you're right. I'm just a troll or a virgin if I think Mystery couldn't get laid to save his life or that I think PUA is largely crap. Let's ask Aaron Sleazy, a friend of Chase's and contributor to Girlschase:

Aaron Sleazy Debunking the Seduction Community
Bogus Community Concepts
"But the community stuff works, dude, it really does!"
Regression in the "Dating" Community
Wait, you’re telling me I have to make an effort in order to be attractive to women?
[Mystery's] The Seven Hour Rule

Whoah, a friend of Chase's is also stating a virgin troll's point that Mystery is bullshit? W-what... How can this be? Not to mention, if Mystery is so good with women... why isn't he married to someone, you know, actually hot? I thought he could have any girl he wanted?

But let's get back to the main point. We're talking about you selling snake oil to a guy who clearly doesn't have answers and is still looking to solve a problem.


DrexelScott said:
7. [...] I've been learning and teaching Game for longer than you've probably been aware of the Community's existence, and wouldn't recommend something that doesn't help. I DO use it every time I leave the house to go interact with people and it helps with much, much more than just Game.
Wow, you actually use a product that you're also selling? And it really works? I guess I should take your word for it and pay the $197 (marked at an incredible discount) so you can also get your commission. Because you said it works, it surely does, right? If you said you got laid with hot women, I should believe that too, correct?

DrexelScott said:
8. You wrote, "Do not spam, sell, hawk wares, or push your products or services here." I haven't violated this rule, but recommended someone look at a free thing I offer people who need help, specifically with this area. Chase himself is one of my affiliates for the actual paid program I teach, and suggesting helpful things to people looking for exactly the answer you can provide is not "spamming."
You haven't violated the rule, only recommended something free? Wait, what's this then:

Drexel Scott said:
I wouldn't meet with people WITHOUT using it, it solves 90% of what makes guys unattractive to women in the first place. Try to ignore the hokey marketing because the technique itself is great:

https://releasetechnique.isrefer.com/go ... exelScott/
That program doesn't look free to me. Oh you're talking about The Sexualizer, got it. Something that claims: "If you want to get women SOAKING wet...with just one simple sentence...then simply click the link below for your FREE download of "The Instant Female Arousal Phrase" now!" Wow, so Ken's problem is he doesn't have The Sexualizer, he just needs the one simple sentence that can make women SOAKING wet. This is truly the Holy Bible for virgins everywhere. Well damn, we need to get this to the masses!

And I'm the one lacking critical thinking? Ok.


Now for my concluding point:

DrexelScott said:
Again, you're on a website to learn Game while dismissing Game.
No. Girlschase was never about learning game. It was supposed to be about providing non-hokey answers and actual proven solutions to help a guy have a healthy sex life. There is a lot of great advice on this site. But it's clouded by its own bullshit, just look at this article on a fake science (NLP) you wrote for the site: https://www.girlschase.com/content/funda ... lexibility

This site's quality is further questioned by you pushing a program, like "The Release Technique" that is riddled with fake reviews and pushed by a company that has been reported to scam people with false credit card charges (feel free to Google it everybody). Which is odd too, what's your stance on that Drexel? Why are you an affiliate for a company with poor business practices? And Chase, if you're reading, what does this say about Girlschase working with a questionable writer like this?

Finally, to anyone reading this: I'm not a troll. I'm actually one of the few guys honestly interested in helping you get laid and not wasting your fucking time. I may not be the nicest at expressing it, but I'm not here to insult or argue with people. I'm here to give reality so you can speed through the process easier and not make the same mistakes I did. If you're curious whether I can back up my talk that I actually get girls (quality at that), PM me, I can provide proof. But best yet, I'm not trying to take your money. Because I dislike liars and people that lead you on for their own means. It's not right.

This Drexel guy? He wants your money. Whether it's in seduction or in his $200 NLP/Hypnotism courses: https://www.udemy.com/user/drexelscott/

A guy like Ken asks for advice, gets a sales pitch. After years of struggling to lose his virginity, there's yet another product to buy. Oh and Drexel gets a slight commission. But it really works! But if game was so good at getting guys laid, why does Ken, let alone anybody, need to buy another product?
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

No problem my man, I'll be here for a long time. Is there any way I can sign up to shill your products too? I get real hard to the idea of feeding guys lies for cash.

But I love Dave Riker though, really. Google him guys, yet another $200 product you need. Oh wait, even crazier, he's connected to Ross Jefferies from Speed Seduction, another con artist in PUA. Tell me guys of Girlschase, does Ross Jefferies look like someone who lays 10s?



Goddamn Drexel, you seem to have a lot of connections with scammers brah.
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

DrexelScott said:
Are you going to accuse Chase of "feeding guys lies for cash" too, are do you at least have the spark of social intelligence required not to go into someone else's territory and make baseless accusations against them just because they understand how a business works?
Good, get mad bro. Get mad at me :)

Understand how a business works? You are an affiliate for a company that scams people. You support questionable people (Dave Riker, and thus Ross Jeffries) and have products on fake science. You write for Roosh over at Return of Kings, another PUA scammer. Good business sense there. As for Chase, whether he lies or not or his advice is effective or not, I think he honestly wants to help guys so it doesn't matter. I think he's coming from the right place. Thus my confusion of how you're a writer on this site. Girlschase.com likes the company of scammers? Not a good look.

You? You're a shill, and I wouldn't ever work with you. You clearly don't have the ability to pick your friends, why would I trust in your ability to make good decisions otherwise? Why would anybody trust your advice knowing all this?
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

As for the original topic, I'm with BBoy and ProblemSolving on the issue. I can say from my point of view, looks is one of the problems. You're tall and that's great. Your face isn't bad either. Changing your style is going to help the issue a lot and getting ripped even more so. I can help with both of those if you want. Both are not hard to change.

Curious how you've been trying to go about getting girls though as well, won't have time to look through your post history or anything to get the full story today.

Whoever's advice you choose to listen to though, I do wish you luck Ken brah and hope something works for ya.
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

@Slay

1. But your point about movie stars is just further proving my point. They are movie stars: they have money and status, if not looks. Most guys are not movie stars, most will not be able to lean on riches or status to supplement looks. Celebrity status let's you get away with a lot. And even knowing that bodybuilding was not a full-on mainstream thing in Gary Cooper's time, this does not negate my point of attractiveness. Those guys are attractive, old sex symbols were definitely attractive for their time and continue to be attractive, if not for looks, then for status or money.

2. I am saying those bodybuilding guys are attractive, just like the guys you mentioned. That's the bottom line, you have to be physically attractive. Do you think girls would go crazy for Harrison Ford if he looked terrible? Do you think Han Solo's "manly presence" would get him laid if he looked like an average guy?

This idea that Drexel is peddling, the idea that "No, I'm a guy, I can just have 'masculine presence'" without having anything tangible to offer is complete crap and just misleads guys into thinking that they should work on their "game" because "looks only gets you in through the door." This is just not the case.

Furthermore, does anyone think Drexel honestly has a "more masculine presence" than a guy like Christian Guzman, let alone anywhere close to someone like Gary Cooper? Drexel is nothing like Gary Cooper or Sean Connery, at all. I've seen the video you posted, and no. Drexel comes across as anything but sexy. Any guy who actually gets laid could tell that. No attractive guy on the planet wears a tribal pendant, poorly fitted black striped shirt, a bad haircut, and those glasses. They also don't sound or act anything like him.


This is Drexel everybody:





Does anyone honestly think he can compete with a guy like Marc Fitt, even if Fitt was acting like a nice guy? (PS. He is one.) Do you think Drexel's "social game" is in anyway going to overtake a guy like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgr1ZpSyuw




Drexel's a fraud, man. I'm not saying this to be mean or harsh, I'm saying this to be real. Not trying to yell at you, not trying to come across high and mighty. Just trying to cut through his crap and give advice that produces results, much faster than being a virgin for years before finally sitting down and asking "Why isn't all of this working?" and then getting the answer that he needs to buy some $200 program linked to a scam organization.
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Re: Why Isn't Any Of This Working?

Drexel buddy, come back when you can explain why you're shilling for frauds;)


@Slay

We don't disagree because of semantics. We disagree entirely.

Not going to go too in depth about your post because I can summarize why it's wrong in a paragraph. If all it takes is dominance and masculinity to get laid with quality girls, if a "masculine presence" and "intrinsic value" is really the core of it, then why don't celebrity women date and fuck military men, the most dominant/alpha type of guys on the planet? Riddle me why Katy Perry, who has had plenty of USO trips, decided to fuck Justin Bieber, one of the biggest pussies in pop culture, rather than a NAVY Seal. Why did she have a relationship with Russell Brand and Orlando Bloom instead of a Marine? Why do girls fawn over Zac Efron instead of Chris Kyle from American Sniper? Let me know dude.

Granted, you are correct in as far as relationships. Relationships are a different animal then getting laid regularly with hot babes though, factors like personality, personal compatibility, similar interests, finances, etc. play much more. As for you claiming I don't know what sexy is or what women want, ok. A core part of your argument is that I don't know what I'm talking about, let's go over it once and for all.

For one thing, you are nowhere near hot or built. I'm not saying this to be mean, I am just being honest. If you want any advice on how to change it, I'm more than happy to help, but you have to empty your cup first.


In this post from December (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15286), you look like:




And I look like this:



And that's with some big muscle loss due to being busy.


Here is me at my biggest:



So you're not on the same tier as far as looks and you're still the one asking questions about girls around here. I'm also curious what the quality of girl you are sleeping with is. If your taste is anything similar to Drexel's, then no thanks. So why do you think you are qualified to say that I'm wrong and you are right? It's that you're saying you're trying to prevent guys from getting misled, when you yourself are doing the fraudin.

It's as ridiculous as CaptainHenley up there raging on Rain when Henley is a virgin: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15861&p=79442#p79442

It's as ridiculous as Drexel claiming he can compete with guys that look like me because of his "dominant presence." Even better, he suggests that looking like me isn't going to do to much for you anyways. It's funny too that it's always the guys that look average and have a product to sell you that say things like "looks don't really matter as much." Kinda like how fake rich guys make books on how to get rich.

I'm different, I'm not trying to sell you crap. I've been skinny, I've been big, and getting laid is a cakewalk when you're big. That's the truth. I want you to look even better than me. I want you to have bigger muscles than I do, get laid even more than I do, and find a girl you like even more. I have your best interest at heart. Even better, I'll tell you how to do all of this for free, because I'm not trying to sell anyone fake products for $200.
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
Noting here, my replies had been moved from this thread if anyone wants to see the beginning: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15937

Did not have a say in the title of this thread. Curious who titled it for me.
 

Chase

Chieftan
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
3,167
First off, topic has been addressed repeatedly on this site:



In case you don't want to read, here's the summary: muscles boost attractiveness and are a fundamental. Are muscles THE most important thing? No. They are one of many things that can boost your attractiveness.

THAT SAID, before I get too far into this post, for the guys who are hardcore into the "muscles = laid" mentality, there is a subset of women for whom muscles are Attraction Factor #1 (or #2 or #3). Gym bunnies, a big chunk of the blonde bombshell population, and certain aspirational non-white girls in white countries have muscles as more or less a fetish, much in the way some guys only want to date blondes, or some guys only want to date girls with giant boobs, or some guys only want to date tall girls, or what have you.


ATTITUDE / GAME

Drexel posits the most important aspect to succeeding with women is attitude. This is technically correct. If you're the most ripped guy in the world but you're scared to talk to women, or you have a crap attitude toward them and about them, you will not get women. One of millions of examples:

Muscular, buff, handsome guy makes video about why he can't get a girlfriend.

I personally found this the strangest thing when I was young and inexperienced. I had a coworker who was by far the most muscular guy I knew (bigger than that Christian Guzman guy in King Bert's photos), and one of the biggest I've ever seen in my life - guy was an absolute hulk, and completely juiced up on steroids - break down in tears in a hotel room we shared at sales training, crying about how he could not find a girlfriend, women didn't want him, and he was going to be alone forever.

To be honest, it scared the crap out of me. I'm some weak, skinny 18-year-old kid at the time who completely sucks with girls and I'm having to sit there on the other bed and go, "Ah, it's okay man, you're in awesome shape and clearly worked hard to get there, I'm sure some girl out there can appreciate that," and he just continued to bawl his eyes out and say no, girls don't care at all. And I'm like, "Well, do you go talk to girls at bars? They love guys with muscles!" and he starts yelling about how no, they ALL reject him! All I could think was if this guy loses it and like decides he wants to snap my neck or butt rape me or something, I'm done for. I had to take him to a strip club to try and make him feel better (and they wouldn't even let me in, because it was Delaware and all the strip joints there are 21+).

That blew my "muscles = laid" belief more than anything back then. I'd watched a lot of movies and TV and had been hard into the "muscles = laid" mentality prior to that. Lots of TV shows of big muscular guys and girls drooling all over them.

When I went to university the next year, I started lifting hard as one of my ways to hopefully do better with girls. But I continually noted as I walked around campus how many huge guys there were with fat, ugly girlfriends. I'd see a super muscular guy with minimal body fat, walking around smiling and holding hands with some land whale. I'd shake my head and go, "Whoa. Doesn't that dude realize he can do better?" And then I'd pass another super muscular guy with minimal body fat, walking around smiling and holding hands with another land whale. This was at a campus with 57% women to 43% men, and loads of very slim, attractive girls. Eventually I stopped being surprised and started to just say, "Guess there are a lot of guys who've tried to substitute muscles for the ability to talk to and attract women."


CHERRY PICKING EXAMPLES

"Most PUAs look like Owen Cook or Ross Jeffires" - I mean, come on. Two of the craziest-looking guys in the PUA space are now "most PUAs". That's like saying most bodybuilders look like Richard Simmons.



RooshV is not a super PUA, nor has he ever pretended to be. He's a regular guy who self-taught himself a certain degree of game. Using his conquests as your benchmark for the looks that men who study and practice game get is disingenuous at absolute best. At best.

There are a number of public 'game' figures who post pictures of themselves with the girls they get whose taste in women are analogousto the bodybuilders in Bert's pictures. Do a Google Image search for "Mystery PUA" as just one example of a guy who goes for the hot/sexy bottle blonde chicks:







We used to have pictures of some of Hector Castillo's conquests on his phone coaching page, and they look like these girls, minus the bottle blonde hair. Or here's Joe Ducard, another Girls Chase contributor (who's in good shape, but physique with a shirt on not visibly much different from Drexel's):



Game + fundamentals = results.

It's possible to do exclusively one and be shit in the rest. Like, you could be super muscular guy who's also very rich and dresses really well and has an incredible haircut, great body language, facial expressions, walk, etc. (through-the-roof on fundamentals) but has no idea how to talk to girls (game), and still get pretty good results so long as you had some basic game down (i.e., ability to ask women out, basic flirting, ability to lead a woman through a progression of steps that ends with your penis in her vagina).

Likewise, there are men out there with mostly terrible fundamentals - no muscles, short, ugly - but who nevertheless have remarkable game, and they get equivalent results. First guy I knew with game was a short, fat, balding Puerto Rican salesman with incredible frame control, presence, and humor who dated blonde bombshells of equal looks to the ones in King Bert's photos (well, minus the ripped abs / thighs. If you want to date gym bunnies with any consistency you need to be a gym rat yourself).

Focusing on just one aspect of one side of the equation to the exclusion of all else never works. e.g., the guy who does nothing but go to the gym and lift (i.e., works on just one single fundamental), and improves himself in no other way, dates land whales. The guy who goes out and does 5000 approaches and works on nothing but openers (i.e., works on just one single aspect of game) also does terrible and sleeps with only a handful of girls, none of them cute. The key is improvement across multiple dimensions - both fundamentals (one of which is muscles) and game.

[for the guys who dislike the word 'game' - yeah, I don't like the word either. When you come up with a better word for 'the ability to talk to women, handle tests, maintain frame control, and plan and guide a process from finding, to meeting, to flirting with, asking out, inviting home, and eventually sleeping with women', let me know and if I agree it's a better word, I'll be happy to use that word instead of 'game', and all its funny connotations and culture baggage]

Anyway. Girls Chase exists, in part, to combat entrenched mindsets of "I have the one single key to sex and anyone who lacks it lives in a sexual desert." Whether you think that one magic key is the Cube routine or October Man sequence, or it's that you've got to be 6'5" or taller, or that you've got to be super rich, or you need 18" biceps, or you have to be in the NHL, or whatever. That is the purpose of this site - to highlight the myriad paths to success for anyone who wants them, and allow them to choose the best one for them.

If you think muscles are the absolute key to hot girls and the trump card over all else, I invite you to take your time machine back to 2001 and come save me in that hotel room with that super jacked guy bawling his eyes out over how women don't want him. I'm sure he would love to know the rejections he faced didn't happen and that girls were all over his cock, he just didn't realize it. 18-year-old Chase would certainly appreciate you showing up to save him from having to console this big, scary guy in the middle of a hotel room meltdown.

If, instead, you are ready for a more balanced approach, here's the gist: muscles help (with some girls more than others). But they are an ingredient in the recipe, not the recipe itself:



Also... I can't help myself, but...

Those bombshell chicks in the 'ideal' pictures have some pretty busted faces.

Well, except the first one in the gray sweatshirt. She's pretty cute. The rest though...

You're Passing Up the Hottest, Coolest Girls

Chase
 

Chase

Chieftan
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
3,167
Bert-

King Bert said:
Did not have a say in the title of this thread. Curious who titled it for me.
Needs to be its own topic, since it's the ol' "muscles vs. game" debate, and we don't want that hijacking Ken's thread where he's asking for help.

Title seemed appropriate - your point seems to be guys who teach/study game date ugly girls while presenting themselves as dating hot girls (thus, fake), and muscles are the way to hot girls in your bed (i.e., a trump card). Your thread though; if you want titled differently, I'm open to suggestions.

EDIT: also, no flame wars. Fine/healthy to question sacred cows, but if you're going to go about it by piling up ad hominems, this is not the place for that. There are plenty of ways to make points in civil fashion. The moment you stop treating your opponent with respect is the moment you cede the debate to him.

-C
 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
@Slay

Yes you did claim as much.
Slay said:
I'm tall, got muscles, and get complimented on my face often.

Also, do you really think that I'm 20% body fat? You want to see my definition more, ok. It's called lighting brah.

 

Guest0291

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
72
@Chase

Thank you for your posts, I'll reply consecutively. Glad we can finally talk.

I've already read those articles when they first came out, and trust me, I'm a longtime reader. For this, I'm going to ignore any and all of your anecdotal evidence. You ignore mine. We'll just look at the facts as we have them. I think that's perfectly fair.


On Drexel Scott


Chase said:
Drexel posits the most important aspect to succeeding with women is attitude. This is technically correct. If you're the most ripped guy in the world but you're scared to talk to women, or you have a crap attitude toward them and about them, you will not get women.
You're not wrong, an attitude can be limiting. That is not what the problem with Drexel's advice is. This is:

DrexelScott said:
That's the problem here--you aren't in touch enough with just how valuable a man is to a woman, WHEN HE MAKES HER FEEL THE RIGHT WAY. Everything is about the way she FEELS in your presence, and given the way you've written this post, I'm assuming that some of your "neediness" is leaking through and that is a complete repellant to women.
He is stating in the original post that you don't need looks, height, etc. All you need is to "MAKE HER FEEL THE RIGHT WAY." This is Drexel's claim when we get down to it, and you see it across his many posts: how you socially approach things and the mindset you have inside is what determines whether you get the girl. But need I remind you that your pal Aaron Sleazy has debunked this numerous times (also, wait, looks and height don't make her feel the right way? What?)

http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/06 ... -game.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2014/12 ... -some.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2010/03 ... de-it.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/12 ... nt-by.html

I'll quote from the last article in case anyone doesn't want to read in full. The quote is from Sleazy's friend Alek Novy in the article "What Game Is and Isn't"

Alek Novy said:
You can become a more attractive person (scientifically validated to making a significant difference, go lose 50 pounds and tell me how many more dates you get, same with getting an expensive car).

You cannot, however however merely speak or stand or ask for the date in a "different way" and suddenly get drastically different results. You will still get roughly the same amount of yes responses per 100 chicks. No game believer has ever shown to get a yes per 100 chicks asked more often than a control subject (the control would be average beta-guy game by your terminology).
While we're speaking of Drexel, I'm assuming you've read the thread. How do you feel about Drexel Scott's connections to scammers and companies that are said to place fraudulent credit card charges? How do you feel about him hawking a near $200 product that is riddled with fake reviews across the web?

And if Franco is indeed correct that Drexel gets approval to do this because he is a contributor, please change your rules to reflect this little caveat. If anything I'd like a response on this since Drexel seems to want to avoid this issue.


Average PUA

Yes, Roosh does consider himself a super PUA, he has an entire site where he's pretending to be some decider of what is masculine and what isn't, aka Return of Kings. Why else would he be getting so much criticism from mainstream media, let alone Sleazy if he wasn't pretty out there or bought into his hype?

But are the guys that study game really so different than guys with looks like Roosh and Tyler? Let's see, RSD posts footage of guys that go to their seminars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0MLIzyEm00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESX0A1eNQV0

Surprise, surprise, they're as awkward as I expected. I've also seen pictures of guys around here, and no, I'm not shocked that they aren't good looking but claim such things don't matter. This is not ego talking. I think a guy can do so much to improve his looks, just like your friend Joe. But so many guys here instead think like Drexel that they can replace looks for game, or somehow make it a 50-50 split across. It doesn't work that way, not if you're wanting to get girls of any quality.

Also Mystery lied, he paid girls to pose with him, he paid women to appear with him, he barely got laid (just like Neil Strauss) and he would use his pics in the club to convince guys he actually got with the when that's far from the case. He had a business to run, this isn't a mystery (get the pun?). Not sure if you are serious/10. Consult Sleazy's blogs or books if you want a trusted source.


Joe Ducard

You cannot be serious. Drexel looks nothing like Joe. At all. Even if Joe didn't have abs for shit or had loose skin in his ab area, his arms are clearly fucking impressive and much better than average, let alone Drexel's. If you're going to state that those girls have busted up faces, you can't suddenly choose to be blind to Drexel's clearly out of shape body. It really crushes your credibility.

Joe's got muscular arms, great facial hair, an aesthetic face, a good hairstyle, white teeth, and is taller than the girls in his pictures. And yes, I know he used to be fat. So... how was that supposed to prove me wrong? You just proved me right. That guy Joe, I'm curious, did he get laid at all when he was fat, like your short, fat, bald friend? What kind of girls with? Why bother to change his looks at all if game was the real core of the equation?

Fundamentals is the very reason those results are possible. The reason hot guys don't get laid is because of a limitation on themselves: they don't meet girls, they think girls don't want sex, etc. But overcoming these limitations doesn't make up for looks, not at all. A guy cannot and will not bed a girl who is is not physically attracted to uhim, not without compensating for it somehow, like with money or status or her having a shady motive. You cannot compensate with "game" or talk your way into a girl's pants. Changing how you asked out a girl or approached her is not going to change things. Period.

If I suddenly open up my mind that "Wow girls like sex!" and "Wow I can meet girls at the gym!" this doesn't get me success all of the sudden. I have to be good looking enough for a girl in order for her to want to fuck me. There is no two ways about it. You wouldn't fuck a girl you're not physically attracted to.

Again, here's a post from your friend Sleazy's blog if you think I'm just spouting off: http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/12 ... nt-by.html

What's hilarious is that plenty of guys here go "Oh should have persisted" or "Damn, I didn't chase frame and she got away." They think they have more control over the outcome in the moment than they really do, and it's because of PUA bullshit. That's what it's there for: The illusion of control, the idea that you as a guy can be the reason you got laid, it has nothing to do with her at all. But that's crap. If a girl doesn't want to fuck you, your goal is dead in the water. Period. Yes, her wanting to fuck you can be fleeting but I find this rare. If a girl wanted to fuck me last week, she has always had sex with me the next.

Just look at the recent field report posted on some guy trying to fuck a virgin. She did everything but have sex or blow him. Why? Should he have persisted? Perhaps he didn't escalate things in a way that curtails resistance

Or, oh wait, she's a virgin who is apprehensive about sex. Apprehensive about sex = does not want to fuck. He didn't get laid. Not rocket science.

Where the Lies Begin

So here we are, the crux of it.

Chase said:
It's possible to do exclusively one and be shit in the rest. Like, you could be super muscular guy who's also very rich and dresses really well and has an incredible haircut, great body language, facial expressions, walk, etc. (through-the-roof on fundamentals) but has no idea how to talk to girls (game), and still get pretty good results so long as you had some basic game down (i.e., ability to ask women out, basic flirting, ability to lead a woman through a progression of steps that ends with your penis in her vagina).

Likewise, there are men out there with mostly terrible fundamentals - no muscles, short, ugly - but who nevertheless have remarkable game, and they get equivalent results. First guy I knew with game was a short, fat, balding Puerto Rican salesman with incredible frame control, presence, and humor who dated blonde bombshells of equal looks to the ones in King Bert's photos (well, minus the ripped abs / thighs. If you want to date gym bunnies with any consistency you need to be a gym rat yourself).

Absolutely not on that last part. Let's ignore all the anecdotal evidence. Every guy seems to know some fat balding guy who gets laid super often with women. I'd like to see this guy and what he gets with. Nobody ever has a picture.

You only have anecdotal evidence to back up that last part Chase. Curious though... If I can be an ugly guy with game, than why would I bother getting good looking? You even state, yeah good looks help and hell yeah, you can be looking and have no game and get girls. But then you negate it with "But you can also be ugly and have great game!"

So tell me then... Why recommend at all that you should take care of your looks if you can just make up for bad looks with game? And why are you going back and forth on the issue:

Chase said:
In case you don't want to read, here's the summary: muscles boost attractiveness and are a fundamental.
Chase said:
Likewise, there are men out there with mostly terrible fundamentals - no muscles, short, ugly - but who nevertheless have remarkable game, and they get equivalent results.
Chase said:
First guy I knew with game was a short, fat, balding Puerto Rican salesman with incredible frame control, presence, and humor who dated blonde bombshells of equal looks to the ones in King Bert's photos
Chase said:
If you want to date gym bunnies with any consistency you need to be a gym rat yourself).
Which is it bud?


Chase said:
Focusing on just one aspect of one side of the equation to the exclusion of all else never works. e.g., the guy who does nothing but go to the gym and lift (i.e., works on just one single fundamental), and improves himself in no other way, dates land whales. The guy who goes out and does 5000 approaches and works on nothing but openers (i.e., works on just one single aspect of game) also does terrible and sleeps with only a handful of girls, none of them cute. The key is improvement across multiple dimensions - both fundamentals (one of which is muscles) and game.
I agree on a slight point. No just going to the gym won't net you girls. Yes, you need to place yourself in situations to talk to them. But the idea that a guy who just spends his time in the gym dates land whales? Strong anecdotal evidence/10.

I can't even really reply to your post Chase, but I'm doing my best. Your post is all anecdotal. The only evidence you supplied just proved my point. Joe was fat before. He got fit and healthy and worked on his looks. Gets laid like crazy now. Yes, going out and meeting girls is a key. It's hardly fucking rocket science, and no, just meeting girls is not able to make up for looks. My ability to meet Megan Fox doesn't just suddenly open up the possibility of dating her if she isn't physically attracted to me.



Where I see the problem with your site Chase


I think there's some good quality stuff here that helps: Get sexy. Move fast with girls. Girls actually want to have sex. It's awesome advice.

The other stuff? It's bullshit, plain and simple: http://anti-pua-johnny.blogspot.com/201 ... -much.html

To get a girl, according to your site and your writers, I need to: pre-open, move her, pass shit tests, behave alpha, be sporadic with my texts, keep texts shorter than hers, send an icebreaker text than wait, only tell stories where girls were chasing me, chase frame, have an abundance mentality, pay attention to the 3 body position phases as things progress, fear the closing of an escalation window, get compliance, compliance stack, have to get social proof, etc., etc.

This is where the poor advice descends and just ends up making a guy spin his wheels. Just like I did when I followed it. But when I found out the answer is 1000x simpler I then realized a guy doesn't need any of that. All he needs to do is look good, be personable, and meet hot girls. Him "changing how he asks a girl out" isn't going to change anything: if she's attracted to him and wants to go out with him or fuck him or whatever, she'll say yes. If she's not, she'll say no. That's it. Personality will not increase his chances or be the basis for his chances: it's only a disqualifier. Better looking you are though, the more you get away with. Hard to market that though.

It took me years of cold approaching, getting rejected, practicing my chase frames, and all the other such nonsense to realize this fact. Now I get laid regularly, quicker, with consistently good looking women, and spend absolutely no time on "mastering my game." But if I could go back and tell myself "No brah, this 'you can just practice game and get laid' stuff is bullshit'" I would.

It's funny though. You have readers and forum members reporting depression over your methods, failure to achieve the results they wanted, failures to get laid consistently, etc. Just look at Ken.

Think I'm cherry picking again? Count off to me how many of your members are of "Tribal elder" status compared to all other members' statuses.

Oh but isn't it obvious that those other guys aren't getting success just because they're not trying hard enough? It's a real interesting caveat I've seen around here: if you're depressed at your lack of results, you're not wanting it bad enough. If you're just not getting results, you're just not working hard enough. If you're getting results, my advice worked. See everyone, it works!

All the burden of failure has nothing to do with any part of your advice... that's a curious thing. Maybe just maybe Chase, and fellow board members... certain aspects of this website are incorrect? And thus following an incorrect conclusion leads to poor results. Just like believing NLP will do anything for your chances of fucking your dream girl #fakesciencebruh


Back to the looks vs "presence" stuff though. Fun version of proof of what I'm saying:

https://archive.is/Wga5I/ebc886c6dcc753 ... d3bb03.jpg
https://archive.is/Wga5I/6698eafc5c8e9a ... bff41e.png
https://archive.is/Wga5I/0510a52a8aee0b ... f71814.png
https://archive.is/Wga5I/1f6908d92cd189 ... 1eaad7.png

Of course that's just Tinder. Anecdotally, disregard it as you want, my experience anecdotally syncs up with it. The better looking I got, the more forgiving girls became for how much I could get away with. I could like a complete asshole to a girl and still get her number because she liked my arms. In the end, I choose to just act like, oh no, a nice guy! All I do is ask if a girl wants to hangout, not tell. I say please and thank you and you're welcome. I hold the door, pay for dinner (I couldn't give a fuck who pays). I do all that beta male shit and find it hilarious when guys out there say you can just act dominant and get laid. No, you better be good looking enough for quality of girl you want, period.

Again, if you think I'm bullshitting, consult your friend:
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/09 ... story.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/03 ... weird.html
http://anti-pua-johnny.blogspot.com/201 ... -much.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/03 ... -cool.html
http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2011/12 ... eight.html


Conclusion of post Height matters, muscles matter, looks matter, more than mostly everything in getting laid regularly with hot quality girls, except status or money. The better these are, the more forgiving girls are. Personality/"game" is a disqualifier for getting laid, not the basis: you cannot game your way into a girl's pants, only fuck it up by doing something stupid. You will not get laid consistently or with quality women without good looks and you cannot use game to make up for looks. You can certainly compensate aspects of your looks for each other: short but buff, ugly face but good body, good face and hairstyle but not as fit, etc. But game will not compensate. You cannot "social skill" or "chase frame" your way into pussy. Just like a fat chick can't "chase frame" her way onto your cock.

Relationships are a different animal we won't go into here (hint: personality and long term compatibility comes more into play), we are talking about getting laid regularly and with hot girls at that. In that pursuit, "game" as Drexel describes doesn't matter at all. Looks, status, and money are king. Unless you think that a guy like Dan Bilzerian needs to study game.

Which is another curious thing on this site... why do normal guys have to study getting girls to be like these other guys, yet those other girls didn't read dating advice at all, let alone anything PUA. Why is it a requirement for the masses, and not for them? Maybe being a sports star, billionaire, etc. gets you laid more. No, not because "Girls are valuing the hard work it took to get all the moneyz." It's because the guy is rich and they want money. Look at http://tagthesponsor.com/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top