Is the Manosphere a place for manipulating women? Here's some notes

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Hi Guys,

Apparently, i stumble upon this.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/25/a ... -with-sex/

I was pretty annoyed by the comments below but that's me and i have to practice learning dichotomy of how life works, because life is really that. You will always see the other side of things. Okay, anyway, Here are some facts from religious people and what is out there that most people are trying to put a blind eye or ignorant. (Ignorance is word used and has a negative connotation, i don't like it but it serves it's purpose here.)

1)Sex needs to be allowed, in a sense, have a channel like prostitution

-Middle Eastern leaders are acknowledging that being too strict can cause meltdown. There's a few articles noting that Middle Eastern countries are even realizing such strict rules on sexuality can cause meltdown.

They even close one eye and allow certain areas in Dubai for foreigners to do whatever they want.

2)We revolve around sex

We revolve around sex. It's very simple. This includes lots of people and lots of ways.

-Whiteknights illusion of victorious sex for saving online girls
-"Nice guys" who are not so nice at all, befriending girls so that they can have sex
-Rightheous people who add girls on facebook and try to contact girls, use religion in social circles to scare other friends while date the same girls in social circles.
-Saudi Arabian men and sexual escapades

3)Is RooshV a bad person?

Nope. He's abit like Aaron Sleazy. Blatant. People whom you want to have as friends or allies in a politically correct world, where the word "fate" and "marriage" is thrown around like leafs on the side of the streets. Misrepresentation.

4)Is Dating websites or the Manosphere bad?

Go and read Chase's article on "Is Seduction wrong?"

My question to all guys out there: What makes you think that girls are going to hand you, sex? and have you ever had one? (Was it because she's in a "be a wife mode" or she was just horny)


Men to men talk here, Stop for a moment. Realize that girls are like flowers. She's a female. She's going to do her part in the law of the jungle. She's going to try to withdraw sex, like how the flower tries to draw the fly so that she can bite and have a meal out of you.

My message is there's always a dichotomy in how you look at things. IF you not in business, you think that "text three message and get sex" is wrong, and maybe it is, because i learn myself that it doesn't work on random strangers girls numbers. If you look at a guy cheating, you think it's him who likes sex too much. Little did you know, most guys are at the back of you, trying to steal your girl, and maybe your girl wants to cheat on you too. Now, it's important to look at objectives.

Look at the objective. Let's say Zac here is trying to put Girlschase or the manosphere in a goodlight. The reasons might be because he likes Girlschase and it resonates with him (me). And then you look at the website above and ask yourself, "Why does the commenters criticize the manosphere or RooshV?" Is it because of viewership, money, or some form of validation?

Whatever it is, it's your learning experiences, and to learn to make decisions on what benefits you, and you learn as you go along in life (and sometimes, that learning sucks or feels painful).

Zac
 

Drck

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Don't know about RawStory.com but I've read some ROK articles, and some of them are pretty good. It's more simpler asshole-style, not really a Lover-style like GC. ROK seems to be more for older/mature/more experienced guys, say 30+, whereas GC has many younger guys, many are still teens...

Originally I didn't like the simplicity of ROK style (have fun, lift weights, pump-and-dump, behave like an asshole, who cares what she wants and so on), but I've kinda changed my mind because this style is very effective. A guy needs much less effort to get laid in comparison to GC style (which is interestingly also focused a lot on effortless). GC style is more in a sense: Let's find out what she wants and become that, lets have great vibes with her, lets look and act sexy, lets work on fundamentals, lets make sure she has a great sex and I'm the best lover in her life, and so on.

This way actually takes a lot of effort, a guy still need to do too much to satisfy that girl, he needs to learn a lot. He still want to be that #1 man in her life that she loves, you still want to be that hero in her life, the only White Knight who she gives her heart to. A guy from ROK simply doesn't care anymore, but again those guys are more mature and experienced.

Of course nothing is only black or white, there is just no clean cut between different styles, but for example:

GC guy is concerned whether the guy manipulates that particular girl. He sees it is unfair, he worries that it will hurt that girl.

ROK guy just don't care, call it Red Pill, or whatever. He would say that girls are manipulating guys in many ways as well: For example they promise to go for a date and then they flake, never show up. They never call back, never answer messages. They tease and tease, but have really no intention to sleep with that guy. So ROK guy would say he will use anything in his arsenal to get her to the bed, because that is his primary objective. He doesn't need to vibe with her, all he wants is fun and sex. He knows that the girl likes sex thus there is nothing manipulative, he is only making the way. He will have sex exactly the way he wants it, regardless whether she is satisfied enough. He won't provide for her, he takes care of himself only. He lifts weights and eats healthy because it is good for his health, and he could care less whether it is a part of great fundamentals - which by coincidence is. He does it for himself only, not because of girls like it.

There is a good article on ROK just from two days ago: What It's Like To Date A Strong And Independent Woman. In my opinion, lots of GC guys would like to date woman just like that, she is at the top of females. Date her, marry her, live with her, have children with her... There is still that Niceness-ness, that belief that she is great. There is that desire to seduce her because she is top of top available female. Seduce her and make her fall in love with you, all because you are such a great and irresistible Lover... ROK guy(s) would just dump her ass on the spot, exactly as described in the article because her pretty face, high IQ and high status means just nothing to him, she is just a female like the rest of them...

I was that GC guy some two years ago, I wanted to seduce and date quite similar girl because I had the opportunity. Today I am still quite pissed at myself - because I didn't dump her on the spot, because I didn't behave like a total asshole towards her - in stead I wanted to be her Lover... ROK guy will rather sleep with twenty 6/10 average IQ women than one 8/10 smart and entitled hotty. Perhaps he doesn't even have desire to sleep with 8/10 because she simply requires too much effort and at the same time she is "just a pussy in his bed", just like any other girl. GC guy wants to sleep with fifty 8/10 hot blonds, and he won't still be satisfied anyway; 5/10 are below his standard; he would never sleep with those as their pussy is lesser hot...

Now, don't be confused by ROK simplicity and selfishness, many of those ROK style traits are actually very attractive to girls. A lot of girls including hot ones sleep with men who do exactly that, which is pretty much an opposite of the classical "Nice Guy" complex that most guys suffer....

Its probably not the best comparison of GC vs ROK, don't take it exactly word by word, but I hope it makes some sense...
 

trashKENNUT

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Drck,

I think that Girlschase is "too far" in my opinion in a sense where if you "in the hood" or that you are "aggressive", you might find that Girlschase is lame. and i get that. Then if you are a total beginner and you find that you have to do a lot of things. you do not want to do it anymore because you aiming too high. To me, Girlschase is a way to become a "civilized man", where he doesn't preaches that he be a "whitehat" and he reminds people that if he live long enough, he see himself becoming a villain (The Dark Knight Quote).

There's some things about Girlschase that you wrote, that it's inaccurate but i think it is more to what is your preferred style, rather than GC is this or that. Let me put how most men go about their lifes and how Girlschase is pushing you to be there, rather than growing old to be there, which everyone does. It's pretty funny because if you study religion, it goes abit like this, too.

When a man is a
Teenager: Cocky
Adult: Arrogant
Old; More relax and laid back

Religion
Learn the art from the teacher
Go to War
Peace, and building communities

For Girlschase, IT's doing similar path, just that it's taking an active role in bypassing the first two steps
Be too nice
Be an asshole
Appreciating how your fellow men and women is. (something like that)

Hope there is something. There are things that are inaccurate in your post, BUT it your preference of style that is important and usually humans, have to have a "hate" or "draw the line" kind of thing, which is what you doing here. You know Girlschase is cool but at this moment, you just do not feel it works to your environment or your preference. Can be abit too sappy for some guys or too Napoleon Hill. but yea.. :)

Zac
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I have read Chase's articles before and lurk on this forum but today I decided to join just so I can address this question. As a long time follower of this site and a reader of Chase's articles, the advice on here and the forum is golden. Due to the effect this community has had on my love life, I would like to share my experience with the manosphere. I spent some time inside the manosphere, read some blogs and though there is quality material to be found on the sites (Rational Male's post about a man that knows his value or Roissy's Commandments of Poon), most of it is just angry guys venting over the fact that they cannot get laid.

If you believe that most (or any) of these guys are getting the kind of women you desire or even getting laid at all, you are just naive. Lets use a good comparison, the "manosphere" is to men what radical feminism is to women. Most of the people involved in both parties are extremely angry, very bitter, and just want company. For a while, this idea of women being punished by nature's "biological clock" and traveling to other countries because western women are terrible appealed to me but I realized how miserable I was with my thinking. The whole movement is poisonous and Roosh (more on him and ROK later) actually got away from the manosphere as it was losing popularity. You will be very miserable and angry by reading most of the material that these guys have to offer.

I will give credit where it is due, a lot of the social critique that the writers offer is at times spot on but outside of that, these guys are practically angry virgins projecting their hate on to the screen. The only difference between most of these guys and your typical PUAHate member is that your typical PUAHate member is honest enough to tell you he sucks with women. Countless times in the manosphere there have been exposures happening (Danny504 being the main one) where a writer who ran a blog giving advice to young men and coming off as an authority on the subject was shown as being a liar and not living anything close to what he wrote about.

Return Of Kings was started by Roosh who lost credibility among many PUAs and guys in the community a while ago. People can agree with his social critiques and love how he provokes feminists but he doesn't get laid that much, he even admitted in his own blog post (14 things you didn't know about roosh) that his life is boring and mostly spent in front of the computer. Anyone who sees roosh or return of kings as an authority on getting laid is a simple minded fool that lacks critical thinking skills but I will give roosh credit for creating such a large community and creating an almost cult-like following. There have been articles posted on Return Of Kings in which the authority posting them had no authority on the subject, good example of this being that an Australian guy who has never been to the US posted about the top 10 colleges to get laid in North America, the top comment on it called him out.

Roosh and Sleazy don't have much in common, Sleazy even made a post about how much roosh sucks with women but that drama is for PUAHate.

The manosphere is older guys who are terrible with women starting blogs and attempting to come off as authority figures for an ego boost which is lacking in their lives. It would be wise to stay far away from there and the Red Pill Reddit if you want to be good with women and live a happy life.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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Outside of maybe Christian McQueen (Club promoter), most of the guys on Return Of Kings are not getting laid, come to think of McQueen's articles seemed to have been pulled off from the site. There have been times that articles there have proven to be fake, the site is a Jezebel for men. It offers interesting social critiques, provocative and uncensored political views, and has stood up against radical feminism but most of the self-improvement advice is just recycled from self-help books that these guys read. The site's main purpose is click-bait, to attract as much traffic as people and often by provoking many people ("5 reasons to date a girl with an eating disorder" which was a vile article).

Sites like Girlschase and Good Looking Loser are more about quality and offer advice which come from guys who have lived all of the experiences they talk about. Return Of Kings is more about gaining large amounts of traffic by posting highly controversial material and doing anything for page views and comments.
 

Drck

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Don't make me wrong, I like GC a lot, otherwise I wouldn't be here. At the same time, I must admit that lots of the stuff written on ROK is also real, I can easily relate to my own experience. You just don't know unless you have your own experience with nice-cute-sweet-innocent girl that suddenly turns into a cold-heartless-calculated bitch. Only then you meet the reality face to face.

You should meet some guys who got in love, got married, and going through divorce now. There is nothing wrong with those guys, they are hard working, honest and intelligent men who would do all they could for their family. And they get stripped off everything, their life is destroyed, everything they built is gone, they are depressed and heart broken - yet the sweet girl who he still love is having fun with fun with another man. In his house for which is is still paying. She gets everything including children, he gets nothing except bills. Of course many guys get angry and pissed, and they should. It is not fair, the whole society is saturated with White Knights Protectors of those poor, innocent women... Then you look back, try to analyze her behavior, and you start "seeing" certain pattern. Talk about eye opener, that is a true Red Pill...

It is very difficult to swallow Red Pill, because once you do there is no way back. You just see the world under totally different light, you perceive women differently - and that is perhaps real Matrix.


Anyway, seduction is all relative. It depends on how much time you have to spent on seduction. For example:

Guy A is 20 years old, he is in college and is surrounded by girls the whole day, 5-6 days a week. He can take 3 afternoons off and go to the nearby mall to practice day game. He's got lots of supply, lots of time. He's got lots of supply and lots of time, but because he has minimal skills he won't get laid so easily, maybe not at all. With great skills, he can get laid several times per week.

Guy B is 30 years old, he needs to work during the day to pay for rent and car, there are no girls at his job. How is he going to do day game if he gets home around 5-6 pm? He can go out on Saturdays only but he's got other stuff to do as well. His supply of girls and time is limited, no matter how great his seduction skills are and how much experience he has, he just won't get laid that easily.

Guy C is also 30 years old, but he works in a hospital. He is surrounded by many females all day long, and his profession puts him into high status/dominant position by default. He has lots of supply, limited time, but he can manage to get laid quite frequently, even with minimal seduction skills.

I know a guy, similar to Guy C, mid 30's, decent looks, lifts weights. He does day game and night game, I don't think he even knows the difference. I'm not saying he's that stupid, rather he doesn't care. He is much closer to ROK style, perhaps total asshole. He just doesn't care. Of course he likes pretty girls, and he can relatively easily nail even 18-20 year old girl. But he also regularly pulls many ugly girls that many other guy would touch. He just doesn't give a damn about the looks.

Knowing the "seduction", I once witnessed how he's trying to seduce a pretty and intelligent young girl, some 25 years old. There was some totally artificial game, I could "read" the lines that he has memorized. I'm pretty sure the girl "read" those lines too because she was just going for that, she was playing his game, she was being amused by his seduction skills. At least that is what I thought. To me it was just very superficial game, I would have to laugh if he calls it seduction. But it is working on many girls, he is able to nail many girls. He then left, leaving the girl behind, so it was just me and her. To remind you, I said only minimal words during the whole interaction between him and her, I was pretending that I don't know what is going on, I was just being a Nice-Silly Guy. She then just turned towards me, looked in my eyes, smiled, and said: If you want to fuck me, all you have to do is invite me...

Many guys just wouldn't believe it, unless they experience it on their own...
 

trashKENNUT

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The Truth, Drck,

IT seems like all of us have opinions that is not far off from each other. We all can agree that there are bitter guys and that most of the guys out there are also sad, too. It's unfortunate, really.

Anyway, a recent response by Chase on my post, "If you still bitter with women". It kind of helps me understand how things is as they are.

Zac
 

Franco

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I guess I'll chime in quickly since I've already had this discussion before with multiple people.

There is some truth in what Truthtomasses (pun not intended) and what Drck both have to say when it comes to these other websites. I do believe that websites like Return of Kings and Roosh's blog are mainly there primarily as traffic generators, and in that sense, Roosh is actually doing a very good job of just that: generating traffic. However, I have gone through a handful of the pick-up articles there and can verify that some of the methods are indeed effective, and there is some methodology there that overlaps with what we teach here.

What is the difference then? The presentation of the material and the overall mindset.

Chase's articles are extremely well written and provide impeccable examples that allow readers to really grasp what he is saying -- and this is often hard to do in this business because your readers are most often "skeptics" who are already assuming what you have to say is wrong before they actually take the time to read through all of it.

So there's really two routes you can go when presenting seduction-related material like this. The first route is to cater to the general "virgin" masses that "women are evil sluts who just need to be fucked, and you just need to man up and stick your dick in them." Return of Kings and many other websites go this route because it's what most guys who aren't very good with women want to believe; it's not that THEY'RE terrible WITH women, it's that WOMEN are terrible people with cruel intentions when it comes to men. So naturally, hoards and hoards of embittered men flock to these websites so that they can express their thoughts and then "cheer on" the champions who continue to write articles and support the theory that they want to believe. Fortunately, Return of Kings DOES have some material and techniques that are effective, so for the guys who are actually there to get better with women (rather than just rant away in the comments section like 95% of their readers do), they will actually start seeing some success.

However, the second route to consuming seduction-related material is to go for understanding women above all else, and then applying your seduction techniques from a more positive mindset. This is what Chase and the GC team attempts to do; we want to you truly understand what it's like to be a woman and why they act and do things the way they do. When you fully understand all of the nuances of women, then almost everything YOU need to do to get what you want (and give them what they want) makes absolute sense. You'll also learn that 99% of women aren't truly evil, and they are often just as distraught about men and dating as the men are and sometimes even moreso. As a matter of fact, once you understand the mindset of women, you can even begin to really formulate your own techniques for picking them up and, if you want to, taking them into relationships. I know because I've done this myself after garnering a lot more understanding.

So if there's anything you should read GC for, if not for its seduction techniques, is for the mindset about women, dating, and relationships that it gives you. It's the healthiest and most matured mindset you can obtain (which is what Zac was referring to when stating that "older men are calm and relaxed") and it will really get you the farthest with both women and life.

One thing to take note of with truly prolific men that do well with women is that almost NONE of them view women negatively. They all truly love women and find them endearing, and that comes from an experience level that is far, far beyond the "asshole" mindset that many of the Manosphere-type websites tend to push you toward.

I hope that clears things up!

EDIT: Also, because of the understanding of women you get from reading the articles on this website, you'll also find that the relationship articles contain out-of-this-world and amazing advice that you really can't find anywhere else. When it comes to relationships, unlike seduction, being able to understand women becomes MUCH more important. This is why you'll find that most true "assholes" out there can be pretty good at picking up women but be absolutely terrible at maintaining anything long-term, even when they want to.

- Franco
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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You guys are not getting my point.

A lot of these "red pill" type guys are not really doing it to be better with women, they want attention and sympathy. Think about the emo kid that cries about how terrible life is in his suburban home and how the world is such a dark place, that is your typical "red pill" guy. An example of a guy who has swallowed the red pill but one you can look up to is Chris from Good Looking Loser. To an extent, some of the advice Chase gives is also "red pill". When Chase talks about seeing women as funny and playful because they are different than men and will use tactics to get what they want, that is red pill advice simply because it would be seen as controversial to mainstream society.

I have chatted with many guys in communities that claim to be "red pill" but what you will see when you get to know them better and ask them to share their interactions with women, they are actually very blue pill. Think about the kid that talks a big game about how he is going to beat someone up but when push comes to shove, he won't even bust a grape in a food fight. That is what made me leave the whole "red pill" community, many of the members in it lacked credibility and were simply venting, looking for attention and sympathy rather than improvement and actually interacting with women.

My problem isn't the philosophy behind the red pill, it is the majority who are involved in the community and those that try to come off as authority figures on the subject of getting laid when they don't live anything close to the lives they promote on their blogs. It should be an issue when guys like that are giving advice to all these young men who are lost in life. Majority of the red pill community is full of guys who make all sorts of claims with women when really they're venting due to social isolation.
 

Franco

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TTM,

I get your point. There's a lot of guys in those communities who really don't know what they're talking about, and I agree that nobody should solely be getting their advice from those websites.

That being said, I just wanted to make a note that not all of the material on those websites is faulty or incorrect. Regardless of who it came from (or maybe where it was stolen), some of the pick-up material there is legitimate. Pick-up in it of itself is actually a very broad topic, and the possibilities of how you can perform it and execute it are very broad because of the amount of variables involved.

So my main point (besides the fact that GirlsChase provides a much better understanding of the woman psyche) is that not ALL of the material on those websites have faulty or bad advice. I wouldn't, however, use them as MY personal source of information since GirlsChase pretty much covers everything those websites do (and way, way beyond). Those websites are better for possibly scraping up small techniques to add to your arsenal rather than using them as your "Seduction Handbook" and go-to bible for women. But the only way to really know if a technique might work or not is to try it out yourself (rather than take it at face value from an author you don't have complete faith in yet).

- Franco
 

Estate

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The way I see it PUA does not equal the Manosphere... there's some overlap but what started from the same place are now different communities.

I also read the occasional ROK article if it looks promising but mostly their post titles are click-bait.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the premise of some of their articles, most of them come across overly bitter and negative. Like when they write about how aweful the modern American woman is (a recurring topic) or dissecting topics on feminism... the idea for the article maybe holds some truth but I see a big difference between a site like those and a site like this...

If these guys were actually skilled seducers, maybe they would SEE some of the behaviors they talk about but instead of making the readers buy into those beliefs and turning them against women, they would be doing what Chase does, and help guys understand the REASON behind what they see and how to overcome it, meet and attract women and grow to love women.

While they CLAIM in a lot of their articles to bed a lot of women, it seems unfathomable that their primary method of seducing women is to simply hate what they have become in their own minds. Instead of learning to love women and move past the issues they are creating for themselves, they are pushing their beliefs on regular guys who are looking for someone to blame for their lack of success with women and pulls these guys in when it gives them reason to just blame the women themselves... i.e. telling a guy who is not skilled with women that he is fine, it's all the womens fault, does not actually help him get laid.
 

Drck

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Great points. Not sure though where the impression that these guys are hating women comes from. Some of them may but (IMO) that is not the case for most.

Typical/average guy is unfortunately raised as a Nice Guy. Do this do that for that girl, be gentleman. Open door, buy lunch, be nice to her. Bring flowers, put her on a pedestal, make her feel good. That may have been working for previous generations, but women got used to it and they expect it. They become entitled, and they consider this behavior normal. I said it in the past: it is not really women's fault, it is fault of us, men. If somebody was buying lunches for you, protecting you from bad boys, taking you to the movies and for trips just because you have pretty face, and in rewards all he wanted was your pretty smiles - wouldn't you like it too? I would. I would feel like a princess and I would get spoiled very fast.

Now because most guys do it, perhaps they even compete in who can do that better, it just become so boring. If she sees that 9 out of 10 guys are doing this she simply put them at the same level, she places them to the same category: Nice Guys. But then she goes and chooses the 1 out of 10, the one who is different, who doesn't do all this stuff. This is usually the asshole-type guy. This is the exciting guy - guy who doesn't treat her well, guy who dumps her, guy who doesn't care about her. She chases this guy because he is so rare, she wants him because so many other girls want him too...

So this Nice Guy does all his best, he buys and provides, he protects. He believes in Love and happy life, he is romantic. But his reward from those gentle girl is that he just can't get laid. He is getting rejected left and right, no matter what he does, no matter how nice he is, no matter how much he provides and protects...

How could it be? It just doesn't make sense!

Then he finds out that that nice and cute girl that he is in love with sleeps only with guys who treat her like a trash. Who don't care about her, who makes her feel miserable, perhaps even beats her, and then dumps her. And she still can't get over him, she still want the asshole back. She may even divorce him, divorce the Nice Guy who was patiently waiting for her, and go out with another asshole. He may find out that the cute girl who was suggesting to him that she is a virgin and made him wait months for sex has already slept with at least 10 different guys, just quick night stands. But these guys are of course not so important to her because it was only sex, but he is. Is she an evil?

What a rude awakening for this Nice Guy. Everything he believed for most of his life is wrong. The Matrix changes, he bites into a Red Pill, illusions disappear, and the Reality kicks in...

And now he sees women differently. He might hate them at first because he doesn't like the new reality, it may take a year or two to get over it. He might be pissed at himself, for being so nice. But then he just accepts. Why would he hate them, they are just woman, he can still have lots of fun with them, have good sex... But he is no longer this Nice Guy, he kicks them off of that pedestal, he stops doing nice stuff for them, he stops carrying for them... He stops desiring to be aside that pretty face and hot body 24/7, she is just a woman, just a regular person... Now he sees women as more slutty, more unstable than men, and he can seduce them much more easily... It is hard to say that his view point of women is wrong because he can see the behavior everywhere, over and over, the society is just saturated with it.... Perhaps he even stops desiring Love, that great feelings, that full heart pumping out excitement... After all, it is just a feeling, pump-and-dump just makes much more sense...

And when he sees the same entitlement, all those unreasonable demands, all these desires to emotionally and mentally tie down any reasonable man, well, lets just say that he doesn't think it is fair towards us men. But again, there is no one else to blame than us men - we allow them to behave like this by being weak, and they just do it because they can... The truth also is, that women in different countries are different. I haven't seen so much entitlement and so much feminism in Europe, a regular guy can still find fairly easily pretty and great woman who cooks, cleans, take a good care of her children, and respects him as a man, while being just that - feminine and loving woman...

So, I guess that's how I see it. GC is still go for that Love, for those great feelings and vibes, and it is just natural to go for that for younger guys. Older guys on ROK somehow gave it up, though there are still those Wanna-be-Alpha Beta crap articles there...
 

Chase

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Fellas-

I found this thread pretty interesting. The red pill / manosphere / alpha-beta / fight club / whatever you want to call it stuff I haven't commented on too much before because it's just sort of a different domain than what GC is, but... I've been seeing more discussion about this on the boards and in the comments and there's often a lot of back-and-forth among different guys or even the same guy who can't make up his mind what he thinks about other places in those areas.

In that light, I'm weighing in here - these are my thoughts, or my own 2¢.

Don’t Talk About Fight Club and Take the Red Pill

One thing I would caution about the manosphere that I did not include in that post is that writers tend to wax VERY theoretical / abstract / speculative; I've seen a lot of stuff in the manosphere that projects out what a woman is going to look like in 30 years based on her behavior now, or how society will decline a certain way, or this way or that.

These things are interesting to read, but I'd caution you not to put any more salt in them than a preacher telling you you are headed to certain damnation if you commit certain sins, or that the end is at hand and the reckoning will come within our lifetimes. There are old cat ladies and societies do decline, but the cat ladies aren't always they crazy slutty girls all grown up, and declining societies don't always follow the same timelines.

(I've read Sir John Glubb, and think he's a fascinating jumping off point, though I'm not well-read enough on various collapsed societies to say with any certainty how quickly or consistently decay and collapse follows on the heels of decadence - there are plenty of societies that declined quite gracefully, without citizens living in bunkers with guns and gallon jugs of water and slutty women paying for their moral shortcomings when those men start slamming shut the doors of their bunkers to them and forcing them to fend for themselves with marauding parties of raiders and assorted wild beasts)

Basically, I see a lot of wishful thinking and revenge fantasies in manosphere posts. Guy A is angry that he can't get happily ever after, so he tallies up a number of telltale signs that all those women who rejected him (no doubt to chase after "alpha cock") are doomed to spinsterhood. But is that actually what happens?

In my experience, not really, and just because she slept around doesn't mean she's going to husband up some desperate chump, either. There's a lot of black-and-white thinking based on theoretical abstractions in the manosphere, and that's always very dangerous if you're looking to get closer to a representation of how things work in the real world instead of farther away from it.

If you're going to read manosphere stuff, I'd recommend you stick to mostly tactical stuff based on things the guy does that work, go test them yourself, and if you're going to read conclusions a guy has drawn, try to stick to ones with action items attached at the end rather than doom-and-gloom "OH we'll never have happily ever after" messages attached to them, because, well... cry me a river, eh? ;)

Chase
 

ray_zorse

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My only real experience with the Manosphere as you put it, was when I was heavily involved with a depressing family law situation, this really sucks the life out of you, especially the family violence side. Women have strong incentives to accuse you of violence and seek restraining orders since this will make you look like a bad guy in the battle for your kids & assets & these restraining orders are pretty much automatically granted since men have been basically vilified and painted as abusers by society, the media & most particularly radical feminists. One of the biggest problems is the feminist lobby & family violence industry (including lawyers, judges, court appointed consultants, refuges and what have you) are highly organized & vocal & have been very influential in setting up unfair divorce, custody, and family violence legislation. A good example would be a lot of the shit about children under 4 being permanently scarred by having overnights away from the supposedly nurturing mum and being cared for by the dad who was supposedly not the primary attachment figure. Well this has been totally debunked including by a meta analysis paper signed by hundreds of psychologists worldwide and aimed squarely at the family law profession but changes have yet to filter through. Similarly it has been demonstrated conclusively that a greater proportion of women than men commit family violence, especially w more recent crazy legislation that makes it a crime to look sideways at your partner/former partner. Yet we still have campaigns like "Violence against women... X [my country] says no!". What about violence against men?!

Anyway I'm not just ranting but coming to the point which is that the "masculists" (equivalent of feminists) are correct in saying that gender politics is absolutely poisonous, that traditional roles & family structure have been destroyed and replaced by predominantly female headed families, that men who don't have contact w their dads growing up are lacking role models and going off the rails and that the marriage contract is no longer worth the paper it is written on (no fault divorce which means the woman can basically ditch the guy at any time yet continue to hold him to his side of the marriage contract)... and guess what? These guys are angry and bitter at women! They have good reason to be since they see the sad and disillusioned men chewed up and spat out at a great rate by the divorce industry...many of whom are financially and emotionally impoverished, many commit suicide, etc.

Well, I don't subscribe to that mindset exactly, because I think it's men's own fault for being pushovers and not organizing themselves to become effective activists & lobbyists to achieve change and that's basically what this site is about -- stoppig the moaning about how unfair everything is and taking responsibility for your own life and goals and getting out and doing something about it. But I do think the radical masculists are playing a valuable role in raising awareness & pointing out to men that they are being conned. For example I always accepted without question & supported the propaganda about no fault divorce & violence against women till I became a waste product of the industry.

I think you have to look at sites like ROK & the others in a similar way. They have the right ideas about empowering men & raising awareness even if they don't go about this in a nuanced way. And they will provide comfort for an angry & bitter man who needs to express his grief & rage for a bit in the process of coming to terms w it and deciding to lift himself out of it, this does not happen instantly as we are all aware. :)

cheers, Ray
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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If you want the negative asshole game guides, read stuff by Tucker Max. Tucker Max pulls off asshole game well and he gets laid, he has credibility compared to most of these red pill writers that do not. The problem with sites like ROK is that they are full of angry guys who just want to stay that way and see the world as their enemy, they suffer the most from the victim mentality chase speaks about.

You guys still keep making the mistake of taking Return Of Kings seriously, it is one large troll site. The only difference between PUAHate and Return Of Kings is that the members of PUAHate have the decency to admit that they suck with women.

Read any comment section on Return Of Kings articles, they are loaded with some right wing racism and pure misogyny. There is a difference between admitting that women are different and radical feminism has gone too far vs just hating women. The site is clickbait, nothing more than that. Return Of Kings is practically Jezebel for men, nothing more.
 

Drck

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I see it quite differently Truthtomasses. As describe above, I know one guy who is typical ROK style. He gets laid with no problem perhaps every week, he gets young and pretty girls as well. The style is quite simple and very effective. He does have problems with relationships, true, but again he is not really seeking to stay in it for a long time. He openly admits to cheats. As far as comments on ROK, i find them quite amusing, hilarious. Many times they are even better than the article itself....

There is lots of overlap with GC but is is just totally different world...
 

Estate

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Yeah. It's not like those guys don't get laid. But you can tell from the tone of each author. For some the " ass hole game" probably works really well. For others they just come across so bitter and all the talk of the downfall of civilization that it just sounds like they are looking for places to blame their lack of success while maintaining this level of superiority instead of crumbling into depression thinking something is wrong with themselves.

Whatever the truth. It's kinda interesting but for me I just find it difficult to really take them seriously or really hear their message when they overblown it.

It's like those political ads where you might actually like the politician but by the time they trash their opponents with such ridiculously overblown conspiracy theories that they just begin to loose the real credibility that the had about their argument in the first place. Just my own opinion. They are quite polarized which I figure is what they prefer.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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You find open right wing racism and posts that call for extermination of certain groups not to mention talks about how great the nazis were to be amusing? I don't think people realize how terrible that blog is. As for the guys following its style, I can write on the internet about how I am rich and women are attracted to my cash, that doesn't mean that I am rich even though there are rich guys out there who get girls just because they are rich.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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You find open right wing racism and posts that call for extermination of certain groups not to mention talks about how great the nazis were to be amusing?
>>>>

You actually sound more bitter than those guys on ROK.

I browse through ROK say once-twice a month, read every fifth article or so, but I don't remember reading anything like that. Can you post which article(s) call for extermination of certain groups, which one is admitting to open right wing racism, and which talks about how great nazis were?

I doubt that many people here would believe you that cash will attracts girls, it's common knowledge that it will not. On the other hand, most people like money, many work hard to earn good living, and most definitely want to have much more, including women. I don't see any problem with that. So, most people wouldn't actually believe you, but if you write that your cash doesn't attract any quality girls it would be easy to believe you, because it is fairly easy to verify the same.

Similarly, I actually know more guys with ROK style, typical assholes, and they get laid quite often. I know some of them from years ago, long before sites like ROK or GC were even around. It is just hard to believe that nobody else except me has the same experience....
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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You still didn't get my point, I never said that guys who are angry towards women always have terrible sex lives. What I was saying was that ROK (whatever school of thought it might be preaching) is a clickbait blog and not one that should be taken seriously for men who want to improve themselves. The reason isn't due to their "red pill" schools of thoughts though I have mentioned how such a thing can make them miserable, it is because the blog itself is mostly click bait and its writers are quite sketchy. I'll admit that guys like Christian McQueen put out outstanding material and Law Dogger has written great stories but outside of that, reading the blog is a waste of time and does nothing to improve you.

You're much better off reading Tucker Max because at least he does get laid and is funny as well.

I browse through ROK say once-twice a month, read every fifth article or so, but I don't remember reading anything like that.

This proves how you have no idea what you are talking about when you defend them and yet you call me bitter when I am simply stating facts. You obviously cherry pick the few good articles that the site has (like any blog out there) and then try to paint the site as this bible for alpha males. I am tired of people promoting nonsense blogs as some sort of a bible for guys out there that want advice because this is what leads to AFCs becoming even angrier and we all know how that can potentially end up.

It can end up in something like this and ROK defends the person saying the reason they did the crime is the fault of women.

http://www.donotlink.com/framed?10240

Sick and disgusting articles like this one that went viral.

http://www.donotlink.com/framed?8330

I won't even bother digging up the many posts written about race, gender relations, and politics that just serve the purpose of making men angry and at this point I know that you are hellbent on defending that blog so changing your view is pointless. With that said, there are many men like me who usually just browse this forum instead of posting on it and I want them to know what they are getting into when they read that blog and affiliate themselves with the "red pill", a mistake I made a while ago.

You can believe whatever you want, I am done and I hope others use their common sense and go to better sources for information.
 
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