Lunch Date, Went Great, Missed the Close

NotJamesBond

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This is the same girl from "Wording an Ask Out Text".

So long and short:

I've known her for years, she just popped back into my life, lunch (second time) today. I couldn't tell at all how she felt until we left the place and then we had fun running in the rain (I know, cheesey but girls love that movie shit) to get back to my car. Total night and day change from how she was in the deli- giggly, playfully referencing stuff earlier in the convo, constantly smiling and beaming, contributing evenly to the convo without me trying much (sprezzatura). All I could think was "holy shit, this actually is all real" and it felt fantastic to work in my favor and experience it with a cute girl, especially with one I'm pretty into. I feel like I turned things around. I don't know, I just...made quick changes as we interacted, took a moment on the spot to chill out when I realized I was putting forth too much effort. Once I turned it around, I freakin turned it around. Natural least effort stuff, natural chemistry (something I was sort of pulling teeth to get earlier). A real personal triumph. However...it doesn't really count if you hit the ball and don't run the bases...

The change happened so fast, I dropped the momentum at the end, and instead of kissing her I hugged her (I kind of didn't think to kiss her, part nerves and part due to the unclarity of my goal for the day because I was trying to gauge her interest while on the date proper). It happened so fast...I noticed she sort of started to go in for a kiss as we embraced but it was too late, of course. I discussed this with my cousin and he said the result is I'm accidentally playing hard to get.

I know this is prime temptation to chase, so don't worry, I'm still keeping outcome independence in mind. Here is how I want to go about this:
text her tonight or tomorrow that it was fun and we should do _____ next week. My cousin said to not text today but tomorrow or something. Thoughts? Further, I think I have some leeway for showing interest since I essentially snubbed her.

I know I missed a big thing after not capitalizing on momentum, but I feel I still have a shot. Going to absolutely get it next time.

It seriously amazes me how well it worked, like magic...

Any input is appreciated but I just wanted to clarify when to text, small thing. I also wanted to hear what you thought of this: could I have, after I missed the opportunity, gotten out of the car and went over to her (she was going to her car right next to mine in the driveway) and kissed her? If she was already in the car, say like "I have something I forgot to tell you, come out of the car" and then kiss her?


EDIT: I also just realized, I have some leeway I wouldn't otherwise have if she wasn't social circle. Phew. Should be good, just got to pull the trigger next time.
As always, thanks and happy playing
 

Seppuku

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NotJamesBond said:
All I could think was "holy shit, this actually is all real" and it felt fantastic to work in my favor and experience it with a cute girl, especially with one I'm pretty into. I feel like I turned things around.
Yep! Seduction works! It was a realization for many of us here.

The change happened so fast, I dropped the momentum at the end, and instead of kissing her I hugged her (I kind of didn't think to kiss her, part nerves and part due to the unclarity of my goal for the day because I was trying to gauge her interest while on the date proper). It happened so fast...I noticed she sort of started to go in for a kiss as we embraced but it was too late, of course. I discussed this with my cousin and he said the result is I'm accidentally playing hard to get.
"Trying to gauge her interest". A much better mindset to have is, she accepted the date, therefore she already is interested.

It will be true most of the times, and you won't waste your time into deciding whether she likes you or not. Also, if you act like you already know she likes you, it is much more attractive to her than if you act like you're not sure. That's easy points earned. Then, you can now focus on leading her and making things happen.

From what you describes, you managed to build the emotional bond and comfort with her. That's a must you absolutely need to have in order to proceed. Then you let her go and all these good emotions fall flat. When this happens, and after the dust settles, it's hard to predict how she's going to feel about it.

Either she'll feel disappointed and start rationalizing that you're not the one. That's escalation window closed. Or she really really likes you and decides to give you another chance. And that second chance, you don't want to miss it, it's likely the last.

So if you get this second date, you will *have* to move things forward. If you don't get it, do not start chasing her. That's a killer. Much better to go silent and re-engage out of the blue after a couple of months. Try other girls in the meantime. You always stand more chances with a brand new girl, than with a girl with whom things went wrong.

Any input is appreciated but I just wanted to clarify when to text, small thing. I also wanted to hear what you thought of this: could I have, after I missed the opportunity, gotten out of the car and went over to her (she was going to her car right next to mine in the driveway) and kissed her? If she was already in the car, say like "I have something I forgot to tell you, come out of the car" and then kiss her?
The "when to text", I feel is a minor issue compared to the missed escalation. But if it's me, I have a strictly non chase-y, non needy approach to text. Don't care if she's gone because there are so many of them. So I would wait a little.

The "try to kiss her after", it will probably feel awkward and needy. It has to be done when the emotions are right. When emotions are gone, it won't feel right.

It's been a week, so this is probably too late a response. If anything happened afterwards, just let us know!

Cheers,
Seppuku
 

NotJamesBond

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Thank you, Seppuku for the helpful reply.

I got another date! I texted her that night saying it was really fun and yada yada, she said she had a lot of fun too. We're going to a trendy open mic Wed night. She seems excited. Here goes nothing.

Assume attraction, yes. I remember Chase going on about that and my cousin saying to assume as well. I needed the reminder.

The thing is about second chances- she's social circle. Any extra leeway there? She isn't some broad I met on the street or something, I've known her for years.

Also, I was dating this Asian girl last semester and our beliefs (we're religious) were pretty in line. Date after date after date after date AFTER DATE I didn't do anything and she still wanted to hang out. When school started we agreed to go our separate ways, only for her to contact me a few months later but I didn't do anything with it. Sometimes girls are super into you and you click, anything can happen. Of course, this is the exception and absolutely not the rule.

You described it well, the comfort and so forth. If nothing comes of this, I know what to look for in future candidates and if something does, then great.

Kissing after feeling awkward and needy- yeah, not going to do that. It has to feel right, that's everything.

You weren't too late, just in time to offer me some pointers before I go in there. Much appreciated, Seppuku and I'll certainly say how it went.

Back at ya,
NotJamesBond
 

Seppuku

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NotJamesBond said:
The thing is about second chances- she's social circle. Any extra leeway there? She isn't some broad I met on the street or something, I've known her for years.
Yes that helps. You have more leeway. But don't count too much on it. She sees you again, great, she definitely likes you a lot. Your job is not to fuck it up. So make sure you push things further forward each time you see her. Your goal is to bring her to bed, a little faster than you would be otherwise comfortable. Believe me, it earns you respect from the girl, and she will love you more for it.

Also, I was dating this Asian girl last semester and our beliefs (we're religious) were pretty in line. Date after date after date after date AFTER DATE I didn't do anything and she still wanted to hang out. When school started we agreed to go our separate ways, only for her to contact me a few months later but I didn't do anything with it. Sometimes girls are super into you and you click, anything can happen. Of course, this is the exception and absolutely not the rule.
Yes, it's possible for the game to last long, if she is framing you for a boyfriend role. I used to have girls before by going exclusively the boyfriend route. It's a more uncertain road. Success rate is lower, and you are playing the game according to her rules. If you end up together, you are already playing into her game for some time. The relationship mostly on her terms.

There is another way of getting girls, which has a higher success rate and sets the relationship much more in your territory. The girls fantasize about this charming lover that will swipe them on their feet. You want to be that guy!

If you become that guy, you will notice that the dynamic of your interaction with girls changes tremendously, in your favor. I don't see myself returning to my old ways now that I have tasted this side of the coin!

Cheers man! I'm happy to help.
Seppuku
 

NotJamesBond

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Yeah don't worry, I won't overindulge the leeway.
Your job is not to fuck it up.
Duly noted.

You see, the boyfriend role is really the only game I play. I am learning to apply abundance to it and all of that, and it's helped a lot. Can't I be a charming boyfriend-lover? ;)
I don't want nor need a bunch of women swooning over me, although it's nice to flirt with them and charm them, I can take it or leave it. I only want a worthy woman as a girlfriend to date long enough to figure out if she's wife material and if I'm husband material for her. This is obviously a process that takes time. I know I'm cheating by coming here but the advice helps. :p

Once again, Seppuku, I appreciate all the tips and pointers.

Cheers back at ya!
NJB
 

Seppuku

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Hey NJB,

NotJamesBond said:
You see, the boyfriend role is really the only game I play. I am learning to apply abundance to it and all of that, and it's helped a lot. Can't I be a charming boyfriend-lover? ;)

Alright, that's a perfectly valid objective.

The thing about GC is, it leaves you with the flexibility of your objectives: "it's up to you to decide what you want to achieve, all the tools you need are here, pick the ones that fits your needs and objectives."

I would nevertheless advise you to make sure you constantly move forward with your objectives, each time you see her. She needs to know that you are leading! You want to avoid the situation where she gives up on you because you're not moving. One of my greatest learning here was to always have a plan and always make sure I'm moving according to my plan. She seems to like you, so if she sees you are progressing, she'll stay around.

This plan involves taking her to bed - the soonest, the better. You otherwise run the risk of being perceived as asexual, and that would be friend zone guaranteed. She may look like a sweet angel but make no mistake, she *is* first and foremost a sexual being. That's why it's a very good idea to transition to sex very early. Past the first sexual act, it will be easy to settle in the BF/GF relationship if you wish so.

Examples of plans I used:

  • * (One date plan) 1. take her out to a bar. 2. After two hour or so, propose to transition in a more quiet place. 3. Bring home and escalate.
    * (Two dates plan) 1. take her out for evening snacks / drinks. 2. Suggest dinner at my place for next date. 3. Second date home, cook, have dinner, and escalate her for dessert.
    * (Three dates plan) I don't do these anymore, but you can easily imagine a progression that fits you. The most important is to make sure you have one.
I usually know which plan I'm going to use beforehand.


OK, good luck to you! Looking forward to read what happens.

Seppuku
 

NotJamesBond

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Alright, that's a perfectly valid objective.
Thanks.

The thing about GC is, it leaves you with the flexibility of your objectives: "it's up to you to decide what you want to achieve, all the tools you need are here, pick the ones that fits your needs and objectives."
Couldn't agree more, amen to that brother.

Seems to like me, eh?

I would nevertheless advise you to make sure you constantly move forward with your objectives, each time you see her.

Arg. I'm using leeway I may not have. Date ended, but she kind of just left the car again but that's because it's up to me to make the move, no? I hugged her and that's it again outside the car, and didn't mention a follow-up. I feel like I was just thrown off because it happened so fast. It's a small window and it just zooms by. This is a problem with me leading, no? It happened so fast, but it also didn't feel like a high point. I guess I could have lead and said "_____, I had fun tonight" and stare at her lips. I didn't seize the moment because it didn't "feel" right and I didn't want to force it but I should have forged ahead anyway, no? I think I remember a Chase article where if you wait until it "feels" right it won't happen, but don't you also have to do it on a high point? It's at the point where it's tough to read, it felt more obvious last time.

Also, she mentioned some guy on the car ride to the place (open mic we both enjoyed) and how some of her friends are trying to hook them up or something and they've just kind of hung out a couple times. I didn't realize until I got home, but could this have been a warning to move fast? At first I took it as a light rejection at first but maybe she's just going with the flow. It can pass you right by, you gotta be quick...Aaaand que the beating up of the self. I let it phase me, I shouldn't have because she didn't make it sound like it was anything, it had a very 'Well you know maybe something will happen" go-with-the-flow vibe and me missing another chance doesn't help. All a part of learning...

However, as you said, you have to move forward. She also is difficult to read but this is where assuming attraction comes in. I should have just planted myself and forged into the unknown. I think the issue is me not moving.

She said for me to text her when I got home and after I did she said: "Thanks for letting me know and for a very fun night. Sleep well, _____!"
Afraid of that other chucklefuck moving faster than me, I said "Back at you. If you're free next week how about we watch a movie at my house"
I'll get her response in the morning.

I know this might be too soon for a follow up but fuck it. I care considerably less how this turns out and am going for it because I want to conquer this motherfucker. I want to beat him. I want to win this game not out of some needy "I need a cute girl:((((' way, I want to win because I want to win. This shit is fun. Because of this refreshed mindset I feel ballsier which is good, I "care less". I feel like if I just pushed forward I could have done it...Obviously I can't chase, but again, it's been 3 dates and there's another fuckhead in the game so I don't have time to "text her in a few days."

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is, my mindset has changed with this. I remembered Chase's great article- you're not trying to make you like her, you're trying to see if SHE likes YOU and YOU like HER, if you guys click. I'm more about having fun with this now than being emotionally invested, so here we go. We have a weird chemistry.

Further, on the car ride back to hers, almost back to her house (I've been driving and stuff) she mentioned how, because she was so tired, she almost invited me in her house but she perked up due to a 1 hour nap. Lol. Sign?
She said it so subtly though, got dang.
It really feels like I'm not leading and that's the issue, what's your reading?
I just had the sense of, when I dropped her off, like she wasn't interested so I kind of backed off, which is why I misfired, but reading that post about moving forward really just kicked me in the ass. I have to make the moment. Thanks, Seppuku, I really appreciate all the help man. And hey, if nothing else, my perspective and confidence are sharpened.


Happy hunting,
NJB


EDIT: I want to clarify- I did have a goal in mind, and that was to kiss her. I don't know what I was waiting for, a clear sign I guess, but again I have to lead. However, like I said it just happened so fast and I missed it. I've had this happen before with some women (including this tall Swedish girl) who I went on several dates with and never kissed. Heh, when my friend saw her in the street he asked how the thing with me is going and she sighed and said "I don't know..." I ended up, by date three, realizing she wasn't for me and I stopped talking to her. Anyway, my point is, I seem to have a penchant for dragging shit out and still somehow having opportunities. I guess if I'm going for a boyfriend role I have more leeway, though, but of course the tools still apply to always have a goal in mind.

EDIT: Again, it wasn't super obvious she was wanting to kiss me but I guess neither was the Swedish girl or the Asian girl (though she kind of was).
I can do freaking everything but get the close that matters. It just happens so fast!

Last EDIT I promise: One last thing- I recall reactions do not equal results. However, you have to assume attraction. This girl...I get great reactions but I also get "Can't wait!" texts for the dates. I feel like it's a situation where forging ahead is the answer if you're not sure.
 

NotJamesBond

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Holy tits, I just got a "I'm up for it!"

Hahaha, I'm still in guys. I guess I have a charm.
 

Seppuku

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Hey NJB,

Mindset. That's all there is. That's my greatest realization in the last two years.

I used to believe I had to do a gradual approach to dating, have a few dates, see if she likes me, and move when I'm really sure that she's into me. What happened of course is, by the time I was sure it was way too late. Then later on, I realized how easy it is to take a girl at home. I did it many times, even on the first date ever, very easily. There were even a few times when we met online, I saw her for the first time of my life at the airport (where she came to wait for me) and we went straight to the hotel. Believe me, I didn't do any magic trick. I didn't know for sure if she liked me. The only thing I did is *just try*.

And the only reason I was not pulling all this before is, because I didn't try. I didn't try, because I had this mindset that, surely, she's a good girl, we can't go and just fuck the first time we meet, we need at least 3 dates of romance first. In my mindset, too, I thought that well, she doesn't like me now, but I have to work first to make her like me, and that takes at least a few dates.

All bullshit. My biggest limiting factor was my own mindset.

Once I cleared this out of my mind, it opened a whole new world. Before I got there, I had my share of failed interactions and endless dating going nowhere. And you my friend, are very much where I was at that time.

Make no mistake, the problem is not the other guy, but yourself and your own limiting beliefs. You are still trying to "read" her and decide if she likes you, and see if she's up for the kiss, when in fact she already likes you a lot and gave you all the signs. See for yourself, that's all the signs you'll ever get from a girl, if any:

Do you think she would bother mentioning this other guy if she didn't like you? Believe me, she wouldn't. She would just move on to fucking him right away. What she's doing instead is, she's telling you she has other options but didn't exercise these options because she would much prefer if it was you.

She tells you that she almost asked you at her home? The real message is, she tells you she was expecting you to suggest it, but you didn't.

You two are talking different things. You're talking about moving to the first kiss. She's talking about you, coming to her place. To her place, to do what? Take a guess.

The only reason you're still in is, she likes you a lot and has already built some boyfriend expectation around you. She has chosen you. That gives you extended escalation windows. Yet, it's all about acting in a timely manner.

She agreed to coming for a movie at your place... Very good. It's time to man up! Don't go for timid moves. Your goal will be to take her to bed, and not "just kissing". I would advise you to look at the LRs in the Field Reports forum, and see how the guys escalate.

Stop thinking, and just act. Remember, if you don't move, you'll be soon like so many of us before, discovering that you've now run out of luck.

OK man!
I hope this helps.
Seppuku
 

NotJamesBond

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All bullshit. My biggest limiting factor was my own mindset.
Exactly. I learned the same thing in full last night, that all the signs that were going to be made are there (I was spoiled last year by an exceptionally confident woman who made it abundantly clear she was into me- oops). I just got to pull the trigger!

...when in fact she already likes you a lot and gave you all the signs. See for yourself, that's all the signs you'll ever get from a girl
Again, exactly. Glad I got all this affirmed.

She has chosen you.
Holy crap, feels good.


The thing about almost inviting me over is, she lives with her dad (and I live with my parents lol, we're still college-aged). I'm definitely going to do something though. Try to make it so no one's home, I don't know. I think she expects mackin'. I thought of saying "It's not too late :)" about the inviting me home thing but that was after the moment passed, lol you always think of the smooth shit when you're not in the moment of it.


Once again, thanks, Seppuku. Keep 'em comin'.
NBJ
 

NotJamesBond

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Hey Seppuku (or anyone)

I forgot to mention one thing.

So I never explicitly called it a date. Further, she told me this whole story about this guy at work (and work drama) she kissed then regretted she kissed because it was work and they didn't end up dating. Then there's the other guy her friends are trying to hook her up with who she kind of isn't sure about or it isn't really anything...? Then, on our first "date" she asked me if I was seeing anyone or anything. Obviously could just be friendly small talk or she's asking to probe or just nothing. It came off like small talk though. Idk.

It originally came off to me like she's telling me all this to frame the relationship as a friendship. However, this isn't necessarily the case. She has to have some clue because we've done 3 one-on-one things. She keeps saying she had a lot of fun. Could be because she likes me or she knows something is up and was just being nice, a platonic fun time. Anyway. I guess my only option is to forge ahead into the unknown with all its unclarity.

Also, on our third "date" (open mic) she took a quick bathroom break to help this guy on the phone (the guy she's trying to be set up with by friends) with some problem and she apologized. For some reason I thought she said he was at the place we were at and she said "No, that would be weird." One of us is the friend and the other is the interest. Or maybe we're both an interest. Further, she told me about how she saw him and gave him some coffee or something to cheer him up about something. I forgot to add that, it's important. Why would she tell me this? I guess the joke was this town was way further away than she thought, she didn't think it was far. I'm assuming you'll say I shouldn't think too much and just go with it anyway.
 

Maxxz

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Hey, NotBond

Read through the entire post and your last comment. This is my take away, this girl keeps telling you about other guys.

My read on it is she either wants you to make a move or she's telling you, you guys are strictly friends and nothing's gonna happen. Only way you're gonna know is to make that move. Never fond of girls telling me about this guy or that guy, just throws up a lot of red flags that this is nothing more than friendship.

Would you be telling girls you were interested in about this girl and that girl? Probably not. But you'll never know unless you grab her and make things sexual. If she bites you move forward, if not move on and find someone else. Good luck.
 

NotJamesBond

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Thanks Max,

I was thinking that exact thing. The issue that I didn't specify it was a date is problematic but eh. My friends said the same thing, nothing to do but go for it. Here we go!

Always make it fun,
NJB
 

Seppuku

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Hey NJB,

What Maxxz says is very possible. If she mentions once about another guy, she's letting you know that she still prefers you (or else she wouldn't be here talking about it). If she mentions repetitively about other guys, she could already be framing you as a confident, i.e. friend zone. If you're really still in, you may end up in the friend zone very quickly anyway if you persist in not acting. Sorry to say, but the girls will have absolutely no qualms to park you into friend zone if you're not moving fast enough. It's the recurrent, cruel experience of so many men before. That's the first reason why this site wisely advocates to *move fast*.

Whether you're in friend zone already or not yet, it's time to act. You may not have so much luck left ahead now. Go for it, or it's gone.

For next time, remember: first or second date in bed. No way she can put you in the friend zone if your dick is already pounding her. And once it is, you will see a very different dynamic unfolding.

Seppuku
PS. How much this rings many bells. Been there so many times before finally getting it. Welcome to the club.
PPS. If another girl asks you if you are seeing other girls, don't say "No". Remain mysterious. Or say something so enormous that she's not sure if you're serious, e.g. "two per day. One in the morning for breakfast. The other late at night before sleeping." Or "I'm on diet. Only two meals a day". LOL. If you say "No", you're telling her that you have no game then she knows she has leverage on you.
 

NotJamesBond

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I appreciate it, Seppuku.

She was supposed to get back to me about her schedule for the movie at my place. She has yet to and it's been a week, but I haven't had time all week anyway (and I've been needing to trim my beard lol) so it works out. Not worried.

The confidant thing is what I thought too. We'll have to see ;)

If not, there's a girl in jiu-jitsu class I rolled with and other chicks. Fresh meat.

Cheers,
NBJ
 

Seppuku

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Hey man :)

NotJamesBond said:
She was supposed to get back to me about her schedule for the movie at my place. She has yet to and it's been a week, but I haven't had time all week anyway (and I've been needing to trim my beard lol) so it works out. Not worried.
Oops. Another big learning point here. Never leave it up to her to come back to you. Most of the time, she won't. Failed leadership. The logistics of the meeting should be agreed on the same time you discuss the date idea, under your firm leadership. It should go something like this:

You: Hey how about we watch a movie at my place next week?
Her: I'm in!
You: Alright! Like Monday, 8:30 pm (I leave out the question mark. She's not sure if it's a question or an assertion)
Her: Looks good to me
If Monday does not work, propose another date:
You: Well Tuesday I'm busy, how about Wednesday? (remember, you're not too much available)
You: (discuss other logistics question, like address, how to get there, etc...)
It should be addressed the same moment she agrees the principle of the date. For her, it's about emotions. She feels it good right now. The next day, she might not feel it. So address the details while she's warm to the idea. It reminds me of an Indian friend, twenty years ago. He used to say about girls:

Girls love to dance. If you let her dance, she will dance forever!
Only now do I measure the magnitude of his wisdom! You allowed her to dance, and she will keep dancing. You will need to step in, and stop her from dancing.

So you will have to take things back in your hands again. As we say in french, better to prevent than to heal. It's about healing, but alright. The way I would do is re-approach her out of the blue, and refurbish the date idea from scratch. I don't want to make her feel bad about not coming back to me with a schedule, so I would just pretend I have no memory whatsoever of what was said before, like the previous discussion never happened.

It looks up hill battle now. You should definitely try, but don't have high expectations. It's always easier to start with new material than trying to fix things that went wrong. Lots of learnings here:
* If she's on a date with you, she already likes you!
* Move faster. The best way to avoid the Friend Zone!
* Aim for the bed, not for the kiss
* Lead her. Don't let her dance!

No matter what they say, the girls who like you will go to bed with you the *same day they meet you*, IF you lead them there. But if you don't, you will soon run out of luck. So get things done while it's still time.

I'm happy to help!
Seppuku
 

NotJamesBond

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Small Update-

Hey, you were right, Seppuku! You guys keep proving to me how much you really do know your stuff...
I just wanted to say it turns out the chick this topic is about has totally been super into me since high school I think. She was pretty darn excited to go on a date with me that she messaged a mutual friend of ours about it (our friend told me this, I didn't know for months). Long story short, there was this other woman I wanted to test the waters with before I committed or anything, so I was going to wait a week and a half (which I got from a Chase article on here) before I texted her for a follow-up date only I forgot to text her and two weeks went by! It looked kind of bad and when I hit her up again, she didn't respond (went into auto-rejection). This was months ago, however, I could probably mop this up just fine with a phone call. My persuasion can be a thing of beauty, just ask my college professors.

I'm currently trying to determine if I actually want to do this because I've been on the fence about her so I'm going to see how things go with a couple other girls first.

Anyway: Is that week-and-a-half thing a decent rule to signify you're not taking the dating process too seriously and are "dating around"? I don't see how two weeks is enough to push it over the edge and send them into auto-rejection but you guys know more about this than I do...

NJB
 
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