Calls & Texts My last post on hard closing and the psychology of why is lower odds...

[Skills]

I see i have made a mistake, cause i thought the Ijjji post on texting (again i think he was influence what i was doing in nextasf) is too broad, so i will just explain the 2 parts that are applicable if HE is a kj or not (which i don't think he was, and the couple of people that accused them of that are guys that have a complete history on every forum of conflicts and paranoias and legit schizophrenia and their credibility accusing of people of this and that is like trump saying there is nothing to see in Epstein files)

^ unfortunately i have to resort to that disclaimer and trolling, because somehow when i post something that i have field tested, the dude actually was influence in the post from what i was doing, and i have taught it, plus is the now method in the majority of the community after 15 years of me screaming this, is still being slander with "was not ijjjjji a kj" jesus! again even if he is, i am telling you what is no kj...

A hard close is when you open or follow up and interaction scheduling for logistics, this is heartofchaos sample i seen this in every forum a million times for years:

Me: (texting her late evening, a couple of hours after first meeting) "Hi X, it's HearofChaos, was good meeting you earlier. Have a good night!"
Her: "Hi, nice meeting you and have a good night too"
Me (next day): "So, let's get together and a have a drink soon?"
Her: "Okay maybe when did u want to mee and where did u want to go"

^ actually he does it wayyy better than most guys....

but the pattern is you open> maybe a greeting>hard close

or open>hard close not even a greeting

"pua form the mall, are you still on for the margaritas, how does your schedule looks like" ------- This was back in the day the most used to see every time in the forums...

This post is not to single out anybody, just for me to be super lazy and link here because is an epidemic is seen in every forum....

actually heartofchaos and other guys are smooth in which the cool personality in person can translate texting without losing value even if I THINK, the structure is suboptimal...

A lot the guys unfortunately becoming needy and change who they were in person on text for the bad.... For example i can increase my smv through texting make the girls project i am such and amazing cool, different interesting dude.... Most can't, but a lot do the opposite come across needy, autistic, off... not good... (this can be saved with more experience and volume, but mistakes are part of the game, but if you keep doing same mistake then you are not learning),,

So here the PRO hard closing arguments:

- I hate texting a lot
- during texting things can be misunderstood and you fuck up
- this suboptimal hard closing shit is taught by gurus, and has work for me in the past
- i did it and it worked....

I will address all of the above objections:

- I skills used to love texting in the past (block of text, trolling, teasing, second gen).... Now i hate it, after 45 i started to hate texting and now i get you guys.... SO I TOTALLY CHANGED MY STYLE, to minimal texting but optimal...And is actually better than what i was doing specially with this add gen.

- things being misunderstood will always happen with minimal or not minimal texting, there is no way around this, but you can do minimal texting with a more optimal structure to avoid the worry of being misunderstood.

- Problem with gurus is that they have more volume (so a guru with 10k students teaching suboptimal crap by the law of average with get more people laid, which is a problem i have always had when i have to compete) Illustration:

super popular guru teaching total crap to 10k students he gets 500 student lay out of that = or 1 out of 20 get laid with suboptimal crap

unknown guy natural that has texed all his life gets 20 to field test and 10 get laid when they actually follow (the others freestyle) but lets say = 1 out of 2 is still 10 vs 500, the 500 will go spreading how they got laid using suboptimal..... most of the 10 will get out of the community or get a girlfriend or one or 2 will promote you (and they feel uncomfortable because natural controversial)

Ijjji kind of explain the above here:

(Digression: The fallacy of reverse engineering is evident for this subject. 'Good' (popular) guys report that they never have problems when planning a meeting. (Since the girl had NO DOUBT to begin with.) Consequently, they tend to SPAM the forums with the BAD ADVICE of scheduling meets, leading to an endless stream of frustrated posts from newbies who always get last minute cancel from girls. On average there are 2 new topics like this every week. Every time the same useless advice given. Possibly making this the most deeply rooted misunderstanding in all of seduction.)

(Scheduling meetups can actually be useful for weeding out lukewarm girls, in a situation where you have many girls lined up.. e.g. you could schedule 10 girls from online on the same day, and hope that 1 or 2 dont flake.. Be warned though: the reduction of interest still plays a role, so the girl could be lukewarm when you meet her, leaving you with more 'uphill struggle', compared to a spontaneous meeting..)

^ so that addressed the last 2 objections


I will explain the psychology 2 points relevant to the psychology or hard closing, from ijjjji:

Part 1 - Why Plans Result in Cold Feet.

The inherent problem with planned events, is that during the period leading up to the event, there will be 'low' periods where future events are seen in a 'negative light' of worry or lack of enthusiasm. (Just think about a time when you were feeling worried, tired or just bored.) During such times, negative thoughts and worries tend to ACCUMULATE in regard to upcoming events. With longer time span, more such 'lows' will occur, potentially allowing multiple layers of negativity to accumulate. End result is often total loss of interest or even AVERSION.

In short, planning in advance will make any previous doubts FESTER & AMPLIFY, resulting in COLD FEET.

Conclusion: NEVER plan a first meet-up in advance.

^ I avoid this, by a bit of bantering and testing reactions during the text (does not have to be massive, but minimal), if the reaction is positive, i will do what is called a soft close, sometimes even some of the gauging has an in it a soft close (all of this i actually learn from women that are extremely risk adverse)....
ex,-
hb.- home it was nice meeting you last night (we were messing around told her to text me to get home did not have the lay)
pua.- Did you guys enjoy the pizza last night (opening with something that happened at the club, when the girls went for pizza post club)
hb: blah blah
pua: what are you up to besides thinking of me and smiling?
hb: lol, i am here doing blah
pua: oh cooll, i am here at the gym trying to look fit and sexy for our upcoming date? (pwf credit) soft close
hb: oh really and when is that
pua: wait, on the phone making reservations for us for chipotle, i told you i am old school romantic, no just kidding, when are you off next week?
hb: maybe blah blah
pua: then is sunday at 7 it is
hb: ok cool...

^ OBJECTION OH SHIT THAT IS TOO LONG, here we go with hard close pua master guys:

Me: (texting her late evening, a couple of hours after first meeting) "Hi X, it's HearofChaos, was good meeting you earlier. Have a good night!"
Her: "Hi, nice meeting you and have a good night too"
Me (next day): "So, let's get together and a have a drink soon?"
Her: "Okay maybe when did u want to mee and where did u want to go"
Me: "How about tomorrow night? We can meet central. I will arrange the details later"

And no reply from her. I waited 3 days and followed up:

Me: "Hey. Do you still want to meet?"
Her: "Hey my bad maybe we can meet in the week if you like I'm just a bit shy when meeting new people tbh so thats why I am taking so long to reply. But like what exactly do you want to like why do you want to meet"
Me: "Its ok, you aren't as shy as you think lol...I want to meet so we can spend some time together to get to know each other. How about Tues or Wed?"

This was 2 days ago - again silence from her. Now, I wouldnt be asking this shit but it's first time in like ever that I get this line of questioning what do I exactly want to do and why I want to meet....Surely it's obvious why already when I came up to her lol. It was a direct daygame interaction, I even opened with "Hey, are you seeing anyone at the moment" etc. Now, I wasn't as straightforward sexual as I often am (I didn't float the meet at her place or mine), so I am going a bit low key here.

^ most guys don't even get response, post the 3rd sentence a majority or get ghosted.... Burn a million leads, some become super needy due to lack of responses, some triple text, some work on total negative compliance, then send ball in your court text and the likes.... Massive amount of effort and text, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than what i do...

so back to my example....

next day till date:

morning sun emoji

she responds,

i respond

^ next day similar now day of the date i engage a bit more on the banter part to test a bit how she is feeling vs the opening with "are we still on today"...

^ she usually will remind me or tell me she can't, if she can't i go back to 0, if i feel no interested (unusual) keep pinging (if shit reaction) i am done but don't delete... AGain, i got post in more details of all the above....


Another problem is guys keep opening convo. loops with hard closes, is idiotic super low odds... here is the explanation:

Calls & Texts - Don't follow up opening with a hard close....

So guys i see a trend from many text reviews pm and in the forum.... First what is a hard close: a hard close is when you set up a meet and arrange logistics without a soft close, a soft close is when you are gauging the buying temperature for a meet, if positive you proceed to hard close, if...

www.skilledseducer.com

CASES WERE TO USE HARD CLOSING:

Calls & Texts - scenarios of straight hard close or more aggressive texting....

This post inspire me of something i was thinking when going for straight hard close (i recently did similar) There are times when you have a girl that are really high interest, really invested, it could be: - you really hit it off and she really digs you -she perceive you as higher value in...

www.skilledseducer.com

Finally guys don't even know how to do the hard close properly, jesus:

Calls & Texts - How to properly hard close (set up logistics for meet up)

A hard close is defined as finding out when the girl is available for you 2 to meet and arranging the meeting (logistics).... I specifically advice this after you get high investment and properly soft closing a girl. A basic structure is to ask "how does your schedule looks like?" or "how...

www.skilledseducer.com

^ none of this is my opinion, i seen the same shit, for 15 years, 4 different forums a million chats....

I did not say if you do proper structure you will not get ghost, or girls will not flake or you won't get blocked and the likes....

My point is your odds will totally 10x, vs constantly burning leads...

 

[HeartOfChaos]

My point is your odds will totally 10x, vs constantly burning leads...

Burning the leads is when a girl is not 100% sure about you, isn't it.

When a girl is sure, then a straight "Hey, let's get together at such and such" without any "soft" texts first tends to work....

And when a girl isn't 100% sure, usually there are some minor tell tale signs during the face to face conversation, especially when you suggest meeting for a drink and exchanging numbers...

Also, it depends on the personality of the woman in question. Some just want you to get on with it and arrange the logistics without dragging with banter - I'd argue for my purposes such women with such personalities are optimal fit both short and long term...I don't like wishy washy lukewarm behaviour, it's a fucking turn off for me....Each to his own...

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Wow Skills that’s a bit TLR.
tryna read it all in detail made my head hurt.

I’m gathering it’s

Option 1 :
Hard Close = when you open or follow up and interaction , with a firm date proposal, including scheduling for her logistics .

Versus

Option 2 :
Soft Close= bantering and testing reactions during a text exchange, over a certain time period and if vibe is good , indirectly suggesting a date . Or presupposing the date.
Ie ‘Assuming the sale ‘ so to speak. And closing via Banter/ Framing.

Is that correct?

can I suggest a superior option (and ‘the Gold Standard’ imo)

option 3 :
Neither ,
Or The Reverse Close = She is gamed to pursue and close you;
this is the ideal, where a guy can lay back, but still provide value , and Game the chick into investing and finally into action to inspire HER to make the date proposition/ close on YOU.

this really is the ideal.
a-la what Brent Smith talks about. His ‘Lazy Method’
His rule being, if the chick is not pursuing him in any way, or he can’t get her to , he doesn’t bother with her at all.

 

[Skills]

option 3 :
Neither ,
Or The Reverse Close = She is gamed to pursue and close you;
this is the ideal, where a guy can lay back, but still provide value , and Game the chick into investing and finally into action to inspire HER to make the date proposition/ close on YOU.

this really is the ideal.
a-la what Brent Smith talks about. His ‘Lazy Method’
His rule being, if the chick is not pursuing him in any way, or he can’t get her to , he doesn’t bother with her at all.

I do mainly option 3, obviously is hard to teach, but i already teach how to do it here:

How to Bait via text to get her to hint a meet

Guys you know I like to ramble, but my rambling are PRACTICAL, just stay with me, you know how I love to make shit simple… A seducer asked me to do, a how do I do my baiting (actually there was a texting guide by ijjji rip where he kind of explain my texting style really good based on a post I...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Skills]

Burning the leads is when a girl is not 100% sure about you, isn't it.

When a girl is sure, then a straight "Hey, let's get together at such and such" without any "soft" texts first tends to work....

And when a girl isn't 100% sure, usually there are some minor tell tale signs during the face to face conversation, especially when you suggest meeting for a drink and exchanging numbers...

Also, it depends on the personality of the woman in question. Some just want you to get on with it and arrange the logistics without dragging with banter - I'd argue for my purposes such women with such personalities are optimal fit both short and long term...I don't like wishy washy lukewarm behaviour, it's a fucking turn off for me....Each to his own...

Alright brother do you... but thanks for the example...I made a good post out of it...

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I do mainly option 3, obviously is hard to teach, but i already teach how to do it here:

How to Bait via text to get her to hint a meet

Guys you know I like to ramble, but my rambling are PRACTICAL, just stay with me, you know how I love to make shit simple… A seducer asked me to do, a how do I do my baiting (actually there was a texting guide by ijjji rip where he kind of explain my texting style really good based on a post I...

www.skilledseducer.com

Cool . Yeah I’m heading towards the same now at the moment using Online.

Btw wether using Hinge vs cold approaching , it’s same-same te the text game part .. same Psychology ..

Thanks for the link I’ll have a squizz see what ideas I can steal

btw @HeartOfChaos re your reply
How do you know how “sure” the woman is after you do your brief cold approach and number close

Also how do you know her ‘personality ‘ /wether she likes Bamter or not .. again, from the brief cold approach interaction?

be interested on your reply to this one …
James.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Btw and to you both . @Skills and @HeartOfChaos

check out this song.
Love this band , and the singer Ian Gillian was a noted womaniser in the bands heyday. Banged countless super hotties no doubts. He gives some great advice in his lyrics (almost LRs in a song form really)
about banging high status-y hot chicks.

most importantly the line
“Oh, it’s not the Kill, it’s the Thrill Of The Chase”

and how that relates to the approach/pickup and especially the text game in between leading up to the bang.

women can get dick anytime.
A guy that goes for a hard close is likely signalling “I’m too anxious /i cannot flirt” and even worse she may well read this as “ I’m likely a premature ejaculator / dud fuck” so yeah .. that’s definitely Bad Game.

James

 

[gameboy]

(almost LRs in a song form really)

Wow, never checked out the lyrics of that song! (I'm not a native English speaker so it doesn't really register, even though I've listened to the song countless times)

"So we put her on the hit list
Of a common cunning linguist"

“Oh, it’s not the Kill, it’s the Thrill Of The Chase”

So true!

 

[Skills]

btw @HeartOfChaos re your reply
How do you know how “sure” the woman is after you do your brief cold approach and number close

Also how do you know her ‘personality ‘ /wether she likes Bamter or not .. again, from the brief cold approach interaction?

be interested on your reply to this one …
James.

I know how, is called cope.... i know you are just pointing the cope out, excellent job...

 

[Skills]

Cool . Yeah I’m heading towards the same now at the moment using Online.

Btw wether using Hinge vs cold approaching , it’s same-same te the text game part .. same Psychology ..

It is, but i was trolling you with "Stop reading after online" because in online you can get automatic abundance super fast and unlimited amount of leads to burn, that is why i was nitpicking... yes i do that online as well..,.,when i move from app to phone.. again, ijjjji makes that point here:

"(Scheduling meetups can actually be useful for weeding out lukewarm girls, in a situation where you have many girls lined up.. e.g. you could schedule 10 girls from online on the same day, and hope that 1 or 2 dont flake.. Be warned though: the reduction of interest still plays a role, so the girl could be lukewarm when you meet her, leaving you with more 'uphill struggle', compared to a spontaneous meeting..)"

 

[HeartOfChaos]

Cool . Yeah I’m heading towards the same now at the moment using Online.

Btw wether using Hinge vs cold approaching , it’s same-same te the text game part .. same Psychology ..

Thanks for the link I’ll have a squizz see what ideas I can steal

btw @HeartOfChaos re your reply
How do you know how “sure” the woman is after you do your brief cold approach and number close

Also how do you know her ‘personality ‘ /wether she likes Bamter or not .. again, from the brief cold approach interaction?

be interested on your reply to this one …
James.

Let me put it this way: after thousands of approaches, I can tell within seconds if the interaction has potential or not. You don't need thousands of approaches to gauge this, anyway. Most women who have actually went on a date with me, and who I have banged, have been super super positive during the cold approach, - this includes giving very clear signs that they were interested in getting to know me:

1) asking first for my name
2) asking where I live
3) sometimes giving me direct compliment that "I am good looking" or something like this
4) being very direct about exchanging numbers without any qualms or hesitations (if they offer instagram or some other bullshit - hell fuck no. Back in facebook days, when any chick offered a facebook / email, I'd just walk away immediately)
5) Allowing me into their physical space very closely withing seconds
6) responding well to my super direct sexual openers like "Let's get together for a night of pleasure"

Basically, girls who are actually eager to meet and fuck quickly don't hesitate to exchange contact details and don't require any bullshit long "soft" text exchanges, usually. This goes for online / apps too.

Any signs that a girl is a little bit sceptical, coy, or slightly unsure about any of the above - and I am already thinking she has a good chance of flaking or not making it too straightforward, and after thousands of approaches, this usually turns out to be the case. Now the girl in question, although she was positive for sure, gave me some subtle signs she may not be super straightforward to meet - specifically, she mentioned to me she is "shy" a few times, and when I told her (during cold approach) that we should meet for a drink and exchange contacts, she was happy to do that, but was also at first a just little coy with "maybe....". Not to go into much detail, but there were some other subtle signs there, too, that I picked up on (like her not asking my name initially, for example among other things). She was the type that needed my physical presence there to take things forward and override any objections.

Regarding personality / banter - I didn't say that I know it, obviously I don't....

 

[HeartOfChaos]

I know how, is called cope.... i know you are just pointing the cope out, excellent job...

Not cope, see my reply

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

It is, but i was trolling you with "Stop reading after online" because in online you can get automatic abundance super fast and unlimited amount of leads to burn, that is why i was nitpicking... yes i do that online as well..,.,when i move from app to phone..

oh ok. So then, do you think online is… BETTER or nah (?)
Or do you prefer the thrill of the in-person face to face cold approach these days ?

There’s pros and cons to both .
At least w cold approach there’s no risk of a Cat-fish situation. Which is pretty common I’m finding.

either way tho, the texting process ought to be the same. Provide ‘sexy value’ to the chick over text. And give her space. So she can start imagining things , that push her towards being more assertive and taking action herself to close the guy.. right?

again, ijjjji makes that point here:

"(Scheduling meetups can actually be useful for weeding out lukewarm girls, in a situation where you have many girls lined up.. e.g. you could schedule 10 girls from online on the same day, and hope that 1 or 2 dont flake.. Be warned though: the reduction of interest still plays a role, so the girl could be lukewarm when you meet her, leaving you with more 'uphill struggle', compared to a spontaneous meeting..)"

Yeah true this can be a tactic I spose…but..also ..why burn them as a possibility by hard closing at all?

I don’t hard close any chicks on Hinge now .
I just wait , until they hint at it first.
They can stay waiting at the bottom of the chat queue , I don’t care. They may come back around later.


E.g. re this I scheduled 4 dates back to back last Saturday . It was exhausting tbh.
It was either me soft closing the keenest ones , that already preframed logistics for a date/hinted /whatever.
Or the chick closing me.

——-

Anyways. I agree w you re cold approach and hard closing.
hard closing after a short CA interaction & number close... is a bad idea. Definitely.
And also online… I don’t see the point either.

Its being pushy, when there’s no need.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Let me put it this way: after thousands of approaches, I can tell within seconds if the interaction has potential or not. You don't need thousands of approaches to gauge this, anyway. Most women who have actually went on a date with me, and who I have banged, have been super super positive during the cold approach, - this includes giving very clear signs that they were interested in getting to know me:

1) asking first for my name
2) asking where I live
3) sometimes giving me direct compliment that "I am good looking" or something like this
4) being very direct about exchanging numbers without any qualms or hesitations (if they offer instagram or some other bullshit - hell fuck no. Back in facebook days, when any chick offered a facebook / email, I'd just walk away immediately)
5) Allowing me into their physical space very closely withing seconds
6) responding well to my super direct sexual openers like "Let's get together for a night of pleasure".

Any signs that a girl is a little bit sceptical, coy, or slightly unsure about any of the above - and I am already thinking she has a good chance of flaking or not making it too straightforward, and after thousands of approaches, this usually turns out to be the case. Now the girl in question, although she was positive for sure, gave me some subtle signs she may not be super straightforward to meet - specifically, she mentioned to me she is "shy" a few times, and when I told her (during cold approach) that we should meet for a drink and exchange contacts, she was happy to do that, but was also at first a just little coy with "maybe....". Not to go into much detail, but there were some other subtle signs there, too, that I picked up on (like her not asking my name initially, for example among other things). She was the type that needed my physical presence there to take things forward and override any objections.

Regarding personality / banter - I didn't say that I know it, obviously I don't....

Ok cool, so you have a ‘database’ of experiences w thousands of chicks . (Same here btw)

and you can see in x seconds wether interaction has potential . Yep cool,

Re the bit I’ve bolded. Basically , these positives are chicks who are (possibly) currently single , looking and available ,and who are interested in your approach, your lil presentation and sexy display.

but , some % of the others , may be interested also, just not as interested *right now *. They’d be better treated just with a ‘poke’ via text now and then, to let them know you’re still available and keen (in a cool fashion) .. until perhaps they do become more available , and horny,

Yknow?

 

[HeartOfChaos]

but , some % of the others , may be interested also, just not as interested *right now *. They’d be better treated just with a ‘poke’ via text now and then, to let them know you’re still available and keen (in a cool fashion) .. until perhaps they do become more available , and horny,

Yknow?

I know... But what I am saying is, this "poke" can still be a straight hey, how are you, up for drinks? text rather than bullshit chat back and forth...

What I noticed is that if they are interested but a bit anxious, is that they usually start giving signs that they need to be reassured, and after a few more messages they come out... But engaging in back and forth banter apriori without directly asking to meet, in the vague hope of warming them up? Maybe, if they fell off the radar for weeks or months, but otherwise, soon after a cold approach? Nah...

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

@HeartOfChaos

add on to above reply #14- yes this “shy” comment could mean many things.
Maybe “shy” means she currently has a BF even?

So I guess in essence I’m saying like the old story , of the Young Bull and the Old Bull looking down from a hill , at a field full of cows.

Young Bull -“ phwoar , hotties down there . let’s run down the hill and fuck a few of them !”

Old Bull -“ no son,, let’s WALK down …and fuck them all”

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I know... But what I am saying is, this "poke" can still be a straight hey, how are you, up for drinks? text rather than bullshit chat back and forth...

What I noticed is that if they are interested but a bit anxious, is that they usually start giving signs that they need to be reassured, and after a few more messages they come out... But engaging in back and forth banter apriori in the vague hope of warming them up? Maybe, if they fell off the radar for weeks or months, but otherwise, soon after a cold approach? Nah...

Well that’s not a poke .
It’s a date proposal/ close

No not banter either (unless she retorts .)

Just a very short text “hey, how are you”
Or a lil sexy compliment “hey sexylegs ”

Or whatever . (Lil sexy remark is good imo.)
Just a poke to say “still keen, dick still available over here”

like I said above. She may not be available right now

 

[HeartOfChaos]

@HeartOfChaos

add on to above reply #14- yes this “shy” comment could mean many things.
Maybe “shy” means she currently has a BF even?

Lol perhaps, who knows....

It's more about the whole interaction I had, I don't care about the shy comment in itself.

 

[HeartOfChaos]

like I said above. She may not be available right now

I understand. Theres a time and a place for all of this, I ain't denying anything you wrote by the way...

By the way I think in recent years longer chat are sorta more expected by people before meeting with the advent of dating apps...

I really long for the olden days when all these apps didn't exist tbh.

These apps really reduce cold approach chances - from mine and many other people I spoke with experiences

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I understand. Theres a time and a place for all of this, I ain't denying anything you wrote by the way...

By the way I think in recent years longer chat are sorta more expected by people before meeting with the advent of dating apps...

I really long for the olden days when all these apps didn't exist tbh.

These apps really reduce cold approach chances - from mine and many other people I spoke with experiences

We’ll look at it from the chicks pov
She meets you for 15 mins (or whatever)
You display some value and get digits.

you also mentioned you were not so sexual w her as you usually are .

I’ll guess she was a girl-next-door , ‘nice’ type of chick perhaps.

So you txt her a date proposal “drinks ? XYZ place? X night?” (Or whatever)
She delays
You text her again say w “hey, how are you, still up for drinks? “

she’s on the other side thinking
“ no dude, read between the lines, I am not ,
Show me more Value.
Give me sexy value.
Give me more comfort.
I’m a nice girl.
Blah blah

you’re coming off as impatient to the chick.