Observation on indirect/direct game from the '30 day challenges'

Velasco

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Quoting 3 separate posts from 3 different posters participating in this cold approach challenge (props my dudes)

Saw a girl rolling a cigarette. Approached her as she stopped by a wall. Told her she was gorgeous. Tells me she has a boyfriend. I brush it off amd ask her how her day is going. She insists that she is about to call him so I'd better go. I wish her well.
Opened with something very low key asking if this was the main entrance to the station and giving her context by telling her that I was waiting for a friend who is supposed to meet me here. Then I did a cold read about her nationality and got it right. She was Russian. This shocked her and she was stunned that I could tell though she was wearing a mask. This opened the topic of travel wonderfully and I tried out some bits and parts of gambits I have read from @Bacchus ’s articles especially the Tourist Frame.

Of course my delivery was nowhere near how Bacchus explains that he delivers them. But still it was good to use them and she said she would go to Thailand if she won the lottery and could go anywhere in the world. I asked her what she would do first if she landed in Thailand tonight and said she would go eat some delicious seafood and then go for a swim at the beach. During this part of the interaction she told me she had a husband and she was waiting for him to pick her up. But the convo was going good so I stayed in thinking I might as well get in some conversation practice. I then nudged the conversation to many topics telling her about my interests and exploring hers and I feel I did a good job of deep diving. But after knowing she had a husband I chickened out of trying to get into sex talk. But looking back I think she would have been up for it and I should have tried to slowly introduce it. After some more time elapsed I realized she was not really investing in me and she seemed unavailable and rather satisfied with her husband and there was nothing going to happen between us.
Me: You know, what’s the difference between green tea… and herbal green tea? It’s almost like they’re trying to trick us.
HB: How old are you?
Me: Haha, is that the first question that you always ask people you just meet?
HB: No, only the college boys who try to hit on me. I’m sure that you can find a pretty girl your own age.
Me: Girls my age are so… immature. All they think about is what parties to go to… which pictures to post on Instagram… and which pair of sweatpants to wear to their 8:00 am class. Sometimes, I really would like to have an intellectual conversation with someone who is just… a little more sophisticated than the rest. When I look in your eyes… I can tell that you’re the type of women who is very intelligent.
HB: Aw, thank you! But I’m married. *shows me her ring*
For me, what's going through these chicks mind as you talk to them, is they're wondering "why is he asking/saying THIS to me?"

When you open a chick by asking for directions/entrance to X. She's gonna respond with the directions to X (or say, "idk sorry")...cause that's what she thinks is why you asked her that question. Anything else BEYOND what an average joe looking for directions/making small talk would say to her, will be interpreted as flirting. And once she knows you're flirting (telling her what game you're playing...credit: @Dreamer for recommending this post in the chat), she can either choose to play along or not.

So when you give her a direct compliment ("your gorgeous/cute")...again.... She's wondering, "WHY is he saying THIS to me?" Oh it's because he's interested in me. Which causes her to reveal both her availability and interest level in you based on your looks+vibe (she's either be 1) single and interested
We make it across and i give my direct opener. "Hey, i know this is a lil random, but i think you look cute. What's your name?" And then i get into the conversation.
2) single and not interested 3) taken and not interested 4) taken, but not that into her man (even if she say she loves him...cause she wouldn't have put herself in position to being seduced and SNLed by a stranger (like going out on a girls night out....or inviting you over to her place with a "warning" talking about, "just want to let you know that we're not gonna have sex").

You'll often read about how its best to go indirect because that'll prevent chicks from making a decision based on her first impressions of you (looks+vibe). But what if I told you, she's already made that decision of whether or not she'd fuck you. She just wants to know if that's YOUR intentions with her (asking her for directions don't tell her nothing). So that she can let you know if she's available or not.
 

J Wick

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Going to chime in with my thoughts...

I think what differs from guys who seem to really nail indirect and those who “surprise” girls with their interest, is either leveraging preopeners and approach invitations or communicating with their overall vibe (how you say it vs what you say).

The FRs of NarrowJ and Richard come to mind.

I mostly use direct because it just feel better for me, but I’m planning to try out indirect more.


Here’s a little bit of context for few times I’ve used indirect that have gone well: I had an actual question that she could help me with, I asked her about something we were both engaged in, or I opened her after getting strong approach invitations.

Since I don’t have the skills of JJ and Richard, I think these girls really liked me from the start, which helped. Although I notice that indirect benefits from some solid context/reason to approach like myabove examples.

When’s there isn’t much context (like the typical street stop) that’s when direct becomes easier and perhaps the better way unless you have the skills and/or wit to give the situation some context.

now that I think about it, perhaps when there is that context then indirect is not only more practical but the better way.
 
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Velasco

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thanks for you thoughts, @J Wick :)

now that I think about it, perhaps when there is that context then indirect is not only more practical but the better way.
This post wasn't about wasn't about which approach is "the better way" (I prefer indirect btw)

Just explaining why these guys getting the responses they getting.

leveraging preopeners and approach invitations or communicating with their overall vibe (how you say it vs what you say).
if she throwing AIs at you from across the room...or you notice her staring at you from your peripheral vision, or hell approaches you herself, then odds are high she's available (she do like u tho...unless you turn your head and catch her giving you a look of disgust lol...). you can open indirect like you did in your FR

Suddenly I notice a smitten-able kitten in red. I don't look at her too much. Too many sharks at the beach, better to pre-open by letting her see me. I don't like contrivances if I can avoid them, but pre-opening is pretty good at a place like a beach where people stay put for awhile. I walk along the beach some more, sometimes you can find bigger fish.

Lucky for me, I didn't see anyone else. Seeing this cutie up close, she's a personal 9 or 10. We make a little eye contact, and I see her smile a little. Usually I fuck up this kind of eye contact, or maybe I don't give myself enough credit here.

I don't open right away, I like to take a swim first and cool off before settling in for a chat. Helps calm my nerves too, I deal with some general anxiety.

I see her trying to get the perfect selfie, part of me feels like she was trying to catch my attention, and I was loving it. It was genuinely adorable and enjoyable watching her try to get the right picture. I was watching her and it felt right. I don't know if people have some sort of sense for this, but something told me she was comfortable with it.

After awhile I got a little uncomfortable, I was getting in my head and slightly avoiding opening her. I went the water again real quick to wash the sand off. I was half in control and feeling like a boss, half feeling like a chump avoiding saying hi.

When I get back to the towel, I finally, call over her too her "How many selfies does it take to get the perfect one?"
or direct ( walk on over to her smiling with a cocky expression going, "Hey! What's a cute girl like you doing over here at the beach all by herself" :))
when’s there isn’t much context (like the typical street stop) that’s when direct becomes easier and perhaps the better way unless you have the skills and/or wit to give the situation some context.
ya that's what topcat did in the first example. He found out her availability right away :)
 
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Slick

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Women don’t want guys putting them in a pedestal. That’s why they go for assholes instead of nice guys
 

terminator92

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Quoting 3 separate posts from 3 different posters participating in this cold approach challenge (props my dudes)






For me, what's going through these chicks mind as you talk to them, is they're wondering "why is he asking/saying THIS to me?"

When you open a chick by asking for directions/entrance to X. She's gonna respond with the directions to X (or say, "idk sorry")...cause that's what she thinks is why you asked her that question. Anything else BEYOND what an average joe looking for directions/making small talk would say to her, will be interpreted as flirting. And once she knows you're flirting (telling her what game you're playing...credit: @Dreamer for recommending this post in the chat), she can either choose to play along or not.

So when you give her a direct compliment ("your gorgeous/cute")...again.... She's wondering, "WHY is he saying THIS to me?" Oh it's because he's interested in me. Which causes her to reveal both her availability and interest level in you based on your looks+vibe (she's either be 1) single and interested 2) single and not interested 3) taken and not interested 4) taken, but not that into her man (even if she say she loves him...cause she wouldn't have put herself in position to being seduced and SNLed by a stranger (like going out on a girls night out....or inviting you over to her place with a "warning" talking about, "just want to let you know that we're not gonna have sex").

You'll often read about how its best to go indirect because that'll prevent chicks from making a decision based on her first impressions of you (looks+vibe). But what if I told you, she's already made that decision of whether or not she'd fuck you. She just wants to know if that's YOUR intentions with her (asking her for directions don't tell her nothing). So that she can let you know if she's available or not.
@Velasco
Thanks for going through my journal and offering your thoughts! :)

I get what you are saying, but one of the main reasons why I wanted to switch over from direct to indirect is the in- applicability of direct in certain scenarios like talking to your neighbor, girls at Uni, on the bus, cafes and closed spaces where you will not be able to leave the other person's company immediately as when a direct opener bombs, girls you may run into again and the small nature of the city I am currently in. I felt, I would rather prefer her letting me know indirectly that she is not available like she did in the interaction from my journal that you quoted and me expressing my intentions indirectly so that she can make that decision.

Since I am looking to convey interest through sub-comms I still definitely do want the girls to know that I am interested in them as I will not get an answer if I don't ask the question at some point. I did not switch to indirect in the hopes that it is a magic method that will enable to me to trick every girl into sleeping with me without risking any kind of rejection.

However, I would like to ask you since you also do prefer indirect, what are your reasons to prefer indirect? And also don't you feel that with indirect done skillfully of course (and I am still just dipping my toes in it) will give her more to make her decision based on? She may have not been into you the second you approached, but after a few minutes you intrigue her and she is now more open to the idea of something with you? Are not Gunwitch, Bacchus, Teevster, you and several others slowly influencing the girl to open up to the idea of sex with you while avoiding ruining the social frame and avoiding knee-jerk reactions from direct verbals when you run your Game? Would love to know your thoughts! Thanks :)
 

terminator92

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Just explaining why these guys getting the responses they getting.
Ohh and I just read Captian Jack's post you linked. I feel I now see the larger picture you were trying to explain let me know if I got it right. The direct game guy gets agreement on Game Dynamic 2 asap when he goes direct. The indirect guy gets it when he starts setting a sexual frame? And if he does not, the girl might already have decided on Game Dynamic 2 but the guy only gets to know her decision when he escalates the vibe. Am I right?

Would still love to know your views on the points about indirect game I raised in my last post.
 

Velasco

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I would rather prefer her letting me know indirectly that she is not available like she did in the interaction from my journal that you quoted and me expressing my intentions indirectly so that she can make that decision
Ya that's perfectly acceptable :)
what are your reasons to prefer indirect?
Really it's what I feel most comfortable with. I started with YaReally, Roissy and RSD back in 2015 and I really liked the trollish jerkboy way they went about opening. I also grew up watching tons of trollish TV shows (got a post somewhere here talking about the kinda shows I watched. Edit: found it ) so it fit my personality.
don't you feel that with indirect done skillfully of course (and I am still just dipping my toes in it) will give her more to make her decision based on? She may have not been into you the second you approached, but after a few minutes you intrigue her and she is now more open to the idea of something with you?
Ya. She can think your intriguing as fuck (just like she could think your funny as hell). But it wont change her status of availability (there are degrees to her interest level. If shes available and interested (the lowest being, willing to hear you out), you can close via indirect (just like you can close via direct (just might have to pass a few shit tests as a knee jerk tho. Which is cake if your in a good state). Peep Lofty's multiple interactions in his journal for an example of someone who fascinates the fuck outta girls.
Ohh and I just read Captian Jack's post you linked. I feel I now see the larger picture you were trying to explain let me know if I got it right. The direct game guy gets agreement on Game Dynamic 2 asap when he goes direct. The indirect guy gets it when he starts setting a sexual frame? And if he does not, the girl might already have decided on Game Dynamic 2 but the guy only gets to know her decision when he escalates the vibe. Am I right?
Ya :)
 
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terminator92

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Ya. She can think your intriguing as fuck (just like she could think your funny as hell). But it wont change her status of availability (there are degrees to her interest level. If shes available and interested (the lowest being, willing to hear you out), you can close via indirect (just like you can close via direct (just might have to pass a few shit tests as a knee jerk tho. Which is cake if your in a good state). Peep Lofty's multiple interactions in his journal for an example of someone who fascinates the fuck outta girls.
Yeah I get it. One is not better than the other. And neither can completely change a girl who is unavailable to sleeping with you. But since I have stopped relying on direct verbals I can see how the rest of my Game is not on point at all. I am not a skilled conversationalist and have quite a few other things that are not on par. I am trying to work on them.
 
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Peterdk234

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I do daygame and most of it is from the streets, so i go direct. I think it is socially unintelligent to stop a girl on the street to ask for the time and then try and switch it around and get into a conversation. Many of the girls i approach are jogging, talking on their phone or looking like they are in a rush. Cut through the bullshit quick and get to it quickly. Then she can decide "okay he finds me attractive, do i find him attractive or not?" Whereas when i have asked women about tea and shit in grocery stores and gone into a conversation, it goes stale and awkward and she doesn't invest because she's thinking "Why does he keep talking to me....." And they excuse themselves. Few guys succeed at indirect. I have lots of respect for guys like @Velasco who go indirect, because their game is really good. Personally for the next year or two of practicing i will stick to mostly direct and i advice guys who are beginners and intermediate to do the same. When i get good game and have the fundamentals down, i will try experimenting with the indirect stuff and get more gamey and technical. I think indirect is better suited for night game and direct is better for daygame. In daygame you gotta be quick and to the point. Most girls are out for a reason. They gotta meet friends, catch a bus/train, go to work/school etc. You got between 1-5 minutes. Go direct and screen them quick. In night game, say, a lounge bar you can plunk down and run game on girls for a good while, so the indirect stuff can work well. Personally i just wanna be time efficient so i go direct.
 

Peterdk234

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Different things work for different people. Indirect for me is just not my personal style. While i couldn't imagine James Bond jumping in front of girls on the streets telling them they are sexy/cute, neither can i imagine Tyler Durden putting on a suit and tie and run NLP on classy women in lounge bars.
 

Skills

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In the necessary early stages of getting rid of aa and getting feel for people, spam approach and direct is obviously needed, once you get through that stage depending on situation you will probably learn towards situational and/or indirect cause it will just flow better, unless is a fast / very little time to work, obviously direct.... I am still trying to understand this post, no every thought is he try to fuck me or not in day time, they can get side trAck by the subject specially if is spontaneous and natural done right....
 

Mr STIF

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Direct openers, here in Africa produces too much of a fuckboy vibe. You got the girl thinking if this is what you do with every other girl :confused:. This thought might give you some flakey numbers(that player guy). Whenever you contact her, that's what she feels. On the other hand, some will immediately hook. Starting playing with their hair, looking down submissively and being responsive. Anything you tell her she just says OK and gets to doing it.

Indirect opener is you using situations and things happening in the moment to get into her reality- making yourself this new attractive guy I met on the bus. It gives an impression of a movie setting as it doesn't look pick up. This is intriguing and I find that they will definitely want to see the end of the soap opera. Lol

I use indirect openers more than I use direct openers. I prefer to lure the target with plausible deniability, making her attribute our meeting to Nature just shuffling daily cards and we happen to be on the same path. This story looks intriguing and might lead to a sure close.

Direct openers. Sometimes, they just create doubts in the woman's mind about you. Though, some will be submissive and let you lead them to their fantasies but some will just find you too confident and get scared that you might hurt them, emotionally.

I guess using both openers in a calibrated manner to the scenario or setting at hand is what actually works wonders.

Cheers
 

Velasco

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I am still trying to understand this post, no every thought is he try to fuck me or not in day time, they can get side trAck by the subject specially if is spontaneous and natural done right....
What I'm talking about or how I'm looking at her reveals my intentions. Her continuing to talk to me means shes a willing participant in the game I'm playing. After that, we start vibing (Vs "every thought is he trying to fuck me"). I use sex talk to help seal the deal. Rather than set a sexual frame to the interaction
 

Tank

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How I now see it:
1) "you are cute and I want to meet you" type openers is beginner game, it's just saying hey I want to play the game of trying to seduce you, can I?
2) push pull or qualifying opener or teasing is intermediate game, you are already playing the game and being upfront about it
3) indirect game is advanced, you are never stating anything that could consciously be interpretated as man to woman, there is always plausible deniability, but you are still seducing covertly both verbally and nonverbally
 

Glow

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guys, just a note to be carefull w over concluding from some limited view of things - stay humble, know the limits of what you know
and move beyond most PU perspectives readily available

on direct - a weak word you should dig more into vs the level youre discussing it at
At the end of things everything is sexual
even w. mundane things the subtext radiates it if youre unaware
or radiate it if you consciously steer it
thing is
you can display intent or sexuality in various degrees

if you keep it hidden, a subtext under-glow and am tempting instead of directly stating it or similar she ll ever be unsure about your sexual intent w her but itll arouse her
if you push pull it shell think its there then not due to the value of loss and control of the mans sexual intent
if you route it down intimacy like movies shell be drawn into her true seed for most women not the selecting you from she sees you bs. Biggest thing there is to avoid bad categorising by her.
so nothing is settled like OP outlines at the end as many of us have explained before from the skilled level.

+ delivery is key
if youre dominantly curious the questions type opener affects her mirror neurologically in a whole other way
if youre a nervous wreck likewise
if youre a brute shell comply but run away as you activate all her protective sensors

This level of nuance needs to be adjusted to her state at the moment too

The key most of you should start putting your focus on is to create moments that lead the interaction and shape up your engagement for this. if youre not there read field rapports from the higher levels and copy for drills for your self to start seeing things better and sensing the impact of the doings.

An example of a good direct opener is you have the best ass ive seen in ages or run away with me or what are we supposed to do with this energy between us? to this youll say whaaaaat are you talking about glow. You cant say that. And i would answer: YOU cant say that. Cause you cannot apply these blindly like you do. and theres often a preopening movement pattern going on too with mutliple elements. A read of her vibe. and an opening sequence like Teevs outlined somewhere - we use opening structures and routes. Also sometimes you wanna use setups before the opening line eg with more bold openers.

also i just give a hint of it and maybe i switch to others making her wonder if it was ever there.. etc etc

Also Bacchus and i outlined multiple reality pacings for indirect in the advanced board recently. Most of these can be openers or socalled RPOs.

understand your ignorance
work more to understand situations and girls true sense of things - their world
and have a C-al-i-b-r-a-t-o-r mindset instead of a stiff rigid narrow gazing mind
that includes to calibrate your mind on these matters

props to all the action taking w. the 30 day challenges for those doing it.

*Nods upwards in recognition*
 
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Velasco

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This level of nuance needs to be adjusted to her state at the moment too
that enables some of us to kiss open girls in night game
Didn't understand much of the what you said above, but on this bit. I like Saul Tee's take in The Technical Game Bible, for what enables some of us to kiss open girls in night game (basically your opener doesn't matter)

Remember that time you opened a girl and she seemed SUPER happy and excited to be chatting with you - that's because her 'buying temperature' or 'emotional arousal' was high when you opened her.

Remember that time you opened a girl and you make out instantly? Sorry to break it to you, but it wasn't because you were 'on point' or were able to accidentally pull off some magical body language trick that triggered primal levels of attraction to the point she couldn't keep her hand off you. Rather, she already had a high level of compliance because her buying temperature happened to be at a high point when you approached.

Remember that time you opened a girl and pulled her within minutes? The reason you were able to get away with that sort of stuff is because her buying temperature was already extremely high at the time you approached. That's all.

"Okay... but what is it that caused those girls to have a high level of 'Buying Temperature' in the first place"

Well, you can also think of buying temperature as emotional excitement and stimulation. And the reason those girls were feeling emotionally excited at the time you approached them was probably due to some combination of events that occurred in the night prior to that moment.

Let's hypothetically map out a girl's night out ;

She arrives at the club.
She grabs some drinks with her friends.
She rejects some loser trying to hit on her.
She gets on the dance floor and starts flirting and grinding with the hot guy.
Then she has a fight with her best friend who happened to have a crush on that guy.
Then she ditches the guy and she makes up with her friend.
Then she gets a spontaneous message from her ex-boyfriend Chris.

So throughout that process she is being put through a myriad of emotions, feeling - happy, excited, annoyed, turned on, upset, relieved, nostalgic, etc...

Then she happens to meet you. At that point, her emotions are organically spiked through the roof. That's why you were able to get away with so much, so quickly.

Basically, you were simply at the right place, and the right time.


As someone who as made out with girls immediately upon opening (not impressive btw, but inexperienced guys will think your god for doing so lol), I agree with this take (freshest memory I have is this chick I opened from the back ("NEVER OPEN GIRLS FROM THE BACK BRO") tapped her shoulder, then when she turned around I just smiled at her, then we made out. Ya she found me hot, but she doesn't go around making out with every hot guy she sees. Her BT was also really high when I approached her.

An example of a better direct opener is you have the best ass ive seen in ages or run away with me or what are we supposed to do with this energy between us? to this youll say whaaaaat are you talking about glow. You cant say that. And i would answer: YOU cant say that. Cause you cannot apply these blindly like you do. and theres often a preopening movement pattern going on too with mutliple elements. A read of her vibe. and an opening sequence like @Teevster outlined somewhere - we use opening structures and routes. Also sometimes you wanna use setups before the opening line eg with more bold openers.
ya you can get away with saying this if you noticed her checking you out, as I explained to J Wick, when you preopened (her level of interest+availability is likely high, so the odds of her responding well to these openers, is good).
 

Skills

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Opening from the back lower probability of success vs slightly back to the side tapping gently is not the same as opening from the back no no. Kissing a girl fast at the club means nothing, it could be actually bad game done from opening...
 

Glow

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removed it.
irrelevant in itself - focus was on the adaption to her state as a pointer.
 
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