Petty argument thread w/ a bunch of petty arguments

Who is the most skilled seducer on this forum?

  • Chase

  • Teevster

  • Bacchus

  • Gunwitch


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Bacchus

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Do you have Toecutter's original piece or RSD's take? I actually am genuinely curious to read their take on the matter. Thank you in advance.

FYI: Franco (Zarathustra_Fi) joined before 2003. But maybe they got the theory from Franco, or Franco got it from Toecutter.

Anyway, I did not claim I was the original creator. All I said was that Bacchus SURELY was not either.

Best,
Teevster

This is derailing... I asked you in advance not to do this.
 

PaulieFlyn10

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I'm not anywhere close to the guys mentioned but I'll weigh in as someone who is very analytical, read and practiced A TON of seduction stuff.

First off, @Bacchus as with any ranking system... what are parameters should be used ? A personal or general one? Lay count? Lay ratio? Quality of girls? Ideas, concept and philosphies? Cross gaming? There are quite a number of them.

However, i will speak on the numerous posts and articles I've read and field tested by seducers on this forum and the blog. (Keeping how innovative and impactful it was to me, other members and various natural seducers i know ). This is because i haven't met anyone here so I'll rely on what they post online and their impact and resourcefulness.

First- @Chase my top spot goes to chase. I've read a lot and no one's advice, knowledge and grasp of seduction comes close. And best of all, I enjoy reading his examples( which i feel i need more of!) everyone who has read Chase work is blown away by how efficient and knowledge skill is. This includes naturals i know who are really epic seducers. His breakdowns and diagnosis can only come from someone who has achieved a certain mastery in game.

Second - @Teevster the master of sex talk/prizing, sexualization. His gambits are life savers. Since adopting a few, my seduction is a lot smoother and so is my transitions to sexual topics or vibes. Only thing I tend to have problems with is the flowery or long language. Sometimes i have to water or tone it down to fit my style. He's also one of the best technical gamers which is why it's easy to transfer some of his night game stuff to day game

Third- @Karea Ricardus D. His post on the X-factor :Vibe was excellent. In fact the sole reason why rules can be broken with results is mainly down to vibe and this is true given how well I've seen naturals perform so well despite breaking a few pick up rules. I'll also appreciate his honesty on looks. After reading his article on looks not getting enough credit, i improver mine and the results were astonishing. From 3 lays in my first semester to about 14 the next.

Fourth- @Skills if there's one thing i credit Skills for is bursting the myth of "texting should only be for logistics " His articles on sexting have been crucial for me and usually lays come easier when i do them. Naturals have been sexting for long with great results so when the pickup community was like "use texting for logistics" i was confused. Seeing how skills does it is brilliant.

Fifth - @Bacchus and @Gunwitch Gunwitch social frame concept and SMMA are considered must haves in my book. Social frame is something many people over look but can make or break your results.


Bacchus comes here because he has probably the most detailed content here on day game. Which to me should be discussed more. I feel there's so much out there on night game and someone who isn't much of a clubber and goes out a lot during the day, I'd love to see more day game stuff. I also love his archetype theory as it makes things more structured.


Honourable mentions: @Glow @Warped Mindless pelusita @Will_V
 

Bacchus

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I'm not anywhere close to the guys mentioned but I'll weigh in as someone who is very analytical, read and practiced A TON of seduction stuff.

First off, @Bacchus as with any ranking system... what are parameters should be used ? A personal or general one? Lay count? Lay ratio? Quality of girls? Ideas, concept and philosphies? Cross gaming? There are quite a number of them.

However, i will speak on the numerous posts and articles I've read and field tested by seducers on this forum and the blog. (Keeping how innovative and impactful it was to me, other members and various natural seducers i know ). This is because i haven't met anyone here so I'll rely on what they post online and their impact and resourcefulness.

First- @Chase my top spot goes to chase. I've read a lot and no one's advice, knowledge and grasp of seduction comes close. And best of all, I enjoy reading his examples( which i feel i need more of!) everyone who has read Chase work is blown away by how efficient and knowledge skill is. This includes naturals i know who are really epic seducers. His breakdowns and diagnosis can only come from someone who has achieved a certain mastery in game.

Second - @Teevster the master of sex talk/prizing, sexualization. His gambits are life savers. Since adopting a few, my seduction is a lot smoother and so is my transitions to sexual topics or vibes. Only thing I tend to have problems with is the flowery or long language. Sometimes i have to water or tone it down to fit my style. He's also one of the best technical gamers which is why it's easy to transfer some of his night game stuff to day game

Third- @Karea Ricardus D. His post on the X-factor :Vibe was excellent. In fact the sole reason why rules can be broken with results is mainly down to vibe and this is true given how well I've seen naturals perform so well despite breaking a few pick up rules. I'll also appreciate his honesty on looks. After reading his article on looks not getting enough credit, i improver mine and the results were astonishing. From 3 lays in my first semester to about 14 the next.

Fourth- @Skills if there's one thing i credit Skills for is bursting the myth of "texting should only be for logistics " His articles on sexting have been crucial for me and usually lays come easier when i do them. Naturals have been sexting for long with great results so when the pickup community was like "use texting for logistics" i was confused. Seeing how skills does it is brilliant.

Fifth - @Bacchus and @Gunwitch Gunwitch social frame concept and SMMA are considered must haves in my book. Social frame is something many people over look but can make or break your results.


Bacchus comes here because he has probably the most detailed content here on day game. Which to me should be discussed more. I feel there's so much out there on night game and someone who isn't much of a clubber and goes out a lot during the day, I'd love to see more day game stuff. I also love his archetype theory as it makes things more structured.


Honourable mentions: @Glow @Warped Mindless pelusita @Will_V

I am not a moderator so I will only say this once.

Vote in the poll... no honorable mentions. And I would prefer we use lay ratio as a metric. My current ratio is 0.667 on my sharp-shoots.
 

PaulieFlyn10

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I am not a moderator so I will only say this once.

Vote in the poll... no honorable mentions. And I would prefer we use lay ratio as a metric. My current ratio is 0.667 on my sharp-shoots.
Well the poll wasn't showing before i started writing lol

But I've now voted.

Also i think you should add the metric in your first post so people have an idea
 

Bacchus

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Also i think you should add the metric in your first post so people have an idea

Done.

@Teevster I only read a few lay reports on mASF since I didn't post there... so I'm not familiar with Franco or his teachings. I never made any false claims... in this thread.... I simply asked question that I know multiple posters here have asked themselves many times. This poll is just a poll... voting is a choice.
 
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Will_V

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Alright then here is the list...

Chase, Teevster, me, Gunwitch. You can all vote once with a post...

What is the point of voting on this? I have never seen any of them (or you) in the field, and I'm sure few on this forum have either. The only result of your poll would be a popularity contest, which is irrelevant and divisive as @Chase mentioned.

We all try to contribute valuable stuff here that others can use, and work through specific issues that others are having. That is partly a question of skill with game and partly a question of skill in teaching and communication. The only metric is how effective someone's advice is in achieving actual results for someone else.

For me, @Chase's articles in particular have been very effective in getting me actual results across pickup and relationships, and the respect I have for him based on what this has added to my life is the only reason I even joined this place to begin with and agreed to help moderate the boards.

I've gotten valuable stuff from most of the authors of Girls Chase including yourself, but I don't think you all provide the same kind of value. Based on what I know so far, I see @Chase as being focused on fundamental strategy and principles, @Teevster having a deep expertise in the technicalities of many aspects of game, and you having a much more visceral, present, in-the-moment perspective on things. I'm not familiar with @Gunwitch to be able to comment on him.

The thing is, nobody can all learn well from the same teacher. I have chosen the material that I learn from based on how well its communication fits my overall way of seeing the world. That makes it far easier to understand the principles and concepts, because they are told in ways that I have an affinity for. Someone else could say the same thing in a different way, and it would get across far better with someone else who had a different experience of the world.

The question of who is 'better' is irrelevant. Nobody can be everything at once, or communicate effectively with everyone at once. One of the great elements of wisdom, in my opinion, is being able to accept, understand, and develop one's natural dispositions, and to be able to offer those things in a way that complements the value that other people provide, so that everyone can benefit as much as possible from the whole. If someone cannot do that, they are relegated to being a stranded individual who must try to outcompete anything and everything around them to maintain their sense of self worth, and never have enough of a sense of satisfaction with who and what they are.
 

Bacchus

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What is the point of voting on this? I have never seen any of them (or you) in the field, and I'm sure few on this forum have either. The only result of your poll would be a popularity contest, which is irrelevant and divisive as @Chase mentioned.

We all try to contribute valuable stuff here that others can use, and work through specific issues that others are having. That is partly a question of skill with game and partly a question of skill in teaching and communication. The only metric is how effective someone's advice is in achieving actual results for someone else.

For me, @Chase's articles in particular have been very effective in getting me actual results across pickup and relationships, and the respect I have for him based on what this has added to my life is the only reason I even joined this place to begin with and agreed to help moderate the boards.

I've gotten valuable stuff from most of the authors of Girls Chase including yourself, but I don't think you all provide the same kind of value. Based on what I know so far, I see @Chase as being focused on fundamental strategy and principles, @Teevster having a deep expertise in the technicalities of many aspects of game, and you having a much more visceral, present, in-the-moment perspective on things. I'm not familiar with @Gunwitch to be able to comment on him.

The thing is, nobody can all learn well from the same teacher. I have chosen the material that I learn from based on how well its communication fits my overall way of seeing the world. That makes it far easier to understand the principles and concepts, because they are told in ways that I have an affinity for. Someone else could say the same thing in a different way, and it would get across far better with someone else who had a different experience of the world.

The question of who is 'better' is irrelevant. Nobody can be everything at once, or communicate effectively with everyone at once. One of the great elements of wisdom, in my opinion, is being able to accept, understand, and develop one's natural dispositions, and to be able to offer those things in a way that complements the value that other people provide, so that everyone can benefit as much as possible from the whole. If someone cannot do that, they are relegated to being a stranded individual who must try to outcompete anything and everything around them to maintain their sense of self worth, and never have enough of a sense of satisfaction with who and what they are.

Derailing.

There is a podcast on Girls Chase where multiple Tribal Elders met up to wing. The only Tribal Elder on this forum who got laid during the podcast has winged with me multiple times... he doesn't post here anymore... but my other students are free to vouch for my in-person skills... if they feel like it.

I wasn't a part of that podcast... but again. Just a poll... no need for paragraphs.
 

Bacchus

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More like gifts and encouragement. Politicians do it all the time, quite effective.

Mods?

This is not a popularity poll. It is exactly what I said in the title... so stop derailing, trolling, or whatever this is.
 

PaulieFlyn10

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Derailing.

There is a podcast on Girls Chase where multiple Tribal Elders met up to wing. The only Tribal Elder on this forum who got laid during the podcast has winged with me multiple times... he doesn't post here anymore... but my other students are free to vouch for my in-person skills... if they feel like it.

I wasn't a part of that podcast... but again. Just a poll... no need for paragraphs.
I don't think it's derailing. Will makes good points. For example the point that majority of people hasn't witnessed anyone game.

The closest we can get to that is infield which again isn't available. Resourcefulness, effectiveness to readers etc are much more valuable. I have natural seducers gain huge insights from both @Chase @Teevster these are guys that have never studied pick up and pull consistently for 10+ years

Furthermore, the post has a comment section which is important to add context. For example, someone may have a metric when voting and would love to add some context. Which he can and should do so. This doesn't derail.

Also, kindly link to the podcast you speak of

Another thing to note is that while lay ratio is good. Other metrics like lay count, versatility, quality, easy/hard countries, speed, cross gaming are also important metrics.
 

Bacchus

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I don't think it's derailing. Will makes good points. For example the point that majority of people hasn't witnessed anyone game.

The closest we can get to that is infield which again isn't available. Resourcefulness, effectiveness to readers etc are much more valuable. I have natural seducers gain huge insights from both @Chase @Teevster these are guys that have never studied pick up and pull consistently for 10+ years

Furthermore, the post has a comment section which is important to add context. For example, someone may have a metric when voting and would love to add some context. Which he can and should do so. This doesn't derail.

Also, kindly link to the podcast you speak of

Another thing to note is that while lay ratio is good. Other metrics like lay count, versatility, quality, easy/hard countries, speed, cross gaming are also important metrics.

Alright here is the podcast.


Note that my last podcast actually broke down the steps to consistency and higher lay ratios.


I cross gamed... and wrote articles on it before COVID.... during the lockdowns... and after the lockdowns. While @Teevster has done day game in the past he doesn't do it these days... and as for who is a better day gamer I don't think I or @Gunwitch need to answer that. Some guys may debate who is a better night gamer if they want to. That's fine... I'd still say I'm better since I've done it Africa, North America and Europe. As for the subject of quality, its quite subjective but members have seen the kinds of girls I bed. And if you want to get into the nitty gritty, read the reports that are available to read.
 

PaulieFlyn10

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Alright here is the podcast.


Note that my last podcast actually broke down the steps to consistency and higher lay ratios.


I cross gamed... and wrote articles on it before COVID.... during the lockdowns... and after the lockdowns. While @Teevster has done day game in the past he doesn't do it these days... and as for who is a better day gamer I don't think I or @Gunwitch need to answer that. Some guys may debate who is a better night gamer if they want to. That's fine... I'd still say I'm better since I've done it Africa, North America and Europe. As for the subject of quality, its quite subjective but members have seen the kinds of girls I bed. And if you want to get into the nitty gritty, read the reports that are available to read.
Thanks for linking. I'll listen to it later.

Yes... i agree that you're an excellent day gamer. I've read your articles and posts and they're the best when it comes to day game.

Now as someone who into marketing and Copywriting i sense that you might want some recognition in the company, perhaps because of your students vouching for you (this is usually the case with most creators in any community but correct me if I'm wrong)

If your aim is for contribution only then continue as you have. But if your goal is more recognition both here and in the community at large i have some suggestions.

I'm a part of different circles and communities in seduction and the issue of the best seducer comes up often. And i understand why: no one wants to waste time and money following crappy advice. And who doesn't want to learn from the best? Many people come up with lists from pimps to advanced/intermmediate puas, to naturals familiar with pick up contents etc.

These are the most common metrics:

- Lay ratio/lay count. This one is super important. The main reason why someone like Jmulv is selling overpriced $2000 courses is because of his 1500 laycount claim. Sinn at one point back in the day had 200 (this is more than 4 years ago i think) @Karea Ricardus D. said Captain Jack had 5/5 many times so did Mystery. And mentioned Sinn and Cj had 16 and 17 lay counts in a month respectively from cold approach. You look at things like these and I'm not surprised every one talks about CJ, Sinn And Mystery.

- Effectiveness to students. This probably the biggest one. The fact that someone said "i used this line or this technique or this strategy and it worked" And the best part? They've used more from the same person and it continues to work. So far @Chase And @Teevster resources stands out by a LARGE margin. Very few things are more convincing than taking something from someone and seeing it work exactly as they say it would.

I saw an opportunity in one of your posts for you to really bring it home where you said you hardly use humour and teasing. Tbh when i read this i was thinking either he does teasing subconsciously or he must have some sort of magic. I was hoping you'd describe how but you probably didn't realise how impressive it was.

But so far and as this poll will suggest, effectiveness of teachings which people like @Chase @Teevster and @Skills Have clearly distinguished themselves is largely the most important as far as this poll is concerned


- cross gaming. This one is pretty straightforward. How effective is the person across different styles of game

- Reputation among other top seducers. Majority of people here discovered you @Teevster @Karea Ricardus D. and this forum through @Chase In fact, I only discovered Teevster because of how well Chase talked about him and i did my research so I'm happy i did.
 

Bacchus

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Thanks for linking. I'll listen to it later.

Yes... i agree that you're an excellent day gamer. I've read your articles and posts and they're the best when it comes to day game.

Now as someone who into marketing and Copywriting i sense that you might want some recognition in the company, perhaps because of your students vouching for you (this is usually the case with most creators in any community but correct me if I'm wrong)

If your aim is for contribution only then continue as you have. But if your goal is more recognition both here and in the community at large i have some suggestions.

I'm a part of different circles and communities in seduction and the issue of the best seducer comes up often. And i understand why: no one wants to waste time and money following crappy advice. And who doesn't want to learn from the best? Many people come up with lists from pimps to advanced/intermmediate puas, to naturals familiar with pick up contents etc.

These are the most common metrics:

- Lay ratio/lay count. This one is super important. The main reason why someone like Jmulv is selling overpriced $2000 courses is because of his 1500 laycount claim. Sinn at one point back in the day had 200 (this is more than 4 years ago i think) @Karea Ricardus D. said Captain Jack had 5/5 many times so did Mystery. And mentioned Sinn and Cj had 16 and 17 lay counts in a month respectively from cold approach. You look at things like these and I'm not surprised every one talks about CJ, Sinn And Mystery.

- Effectiveness to students. This probably the biggest one. The fact that someone said "i used this line or this technique or this strategy and it worked" And the best part? They've used more from the same person and it continues to work. So far @Chase And @Teevster resources stands out by a LARGE margin. Very few things are more convincing than taking something from someone and seeing it work exactly as they say it would.

I saw an opportunity in one of your posts for you to really bring it home where you said you hardly use humour and teasing. Tbh when i read this i was thinking either he does teasing subconsciously or he must have some sort of magic. I was hoping you'd describe how but you probably didn't realise how impressive it was.

But so far and as this poll will suggest, effectiveness of teachings which people like @Chase @Teevster and @Skills Have clearly distinguished themselves is largely the most important as far as this poll is concerned


- cross gaming. This one is pretty straightforward. How effective is the person across different styles of game

- Reputation among other top seducers. Majority of people here discovered you @Teevster @Karea Ricardus D. and this forum through @Chase In fact, I only discovered Teevster because of how well Chase talked about him and i did my research so I'm happy i did.

I wasn't going to get into this... but since it's becoming a debate I'll "qualify" myself lol... it's my 10th year infield after all.

My lay ratio is over 1/2 when my strategy is "getting that specific girl"... I've included the exact percentage in the OP. That means sleeping with multiple girls in a group after approaching one. That means consistent street game lays, banging multiple girls in a row without fail. That also means searching up girls on Instagram and banging them... even without a massive following on social media apps. Plus I mentioned the "out there" goal of getting to point and click in the podcast years ago. I live in Toronto now... which is supposedly a "tough" place to get laid as a pua. Finish my podcast before replying.

Additionally, I have written about humor before search it up. I do use it... on occasion when calibrated to various social and subconscious archetypes. Not to mention the fact that I'm the only guy listed in the poll... who has explicitly stated his current meet-to-lay ratio so far... again its just a poll.

As for students... know this. Every single coach in that poll has sent or recommended their students to me for extra coaching when I was working for GC. I have never sent any of my students to another coach because I am that good at coaching.... this is a fact @Teevster @Gunwitch and @Chase can confirm.

I've coached guys in-person who are active posters on this forum.... for free. Plus I got Varoon laid... in a night game report somewhere here. It was my decision to resign as a writer for Girls Chase... and while I strongly considered launching a coaching business under GC... I decided to do it myself.

If you think you know something about the results of the skilled seducers I listed in the poll that I don't... then feel free to educate me on it.

As for the subject of infields... I have some but you won't see them without my consent. I've already discussed cross gaming in my podcasts. Do not mention skilled seducers who are not listed in the poll again. I consider that derailing this thread and have already expressed myself on that matter.
 
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topcat

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This is hands down the most valueless thread i have ever seen in this forum.

Self aggrandizing to the max. Get a grip of yourself Bacch. Nobody cares who and who isn’t the best. We just care about the value provided so we can get on with getting laid and having awesome relationships.

We don’t care about you or how good you are, just about how much value you’re providing and right now you ain’t providing a damn thing.

Embarrassing.

Stick to teaching us about daygame and quit these gay ass polls..

big diva…
 

Bacchus

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This is hands down the most valueless thread i have ever seen in this forum.

Self aggrandizing to the max. Get a grip of yourself Bacch. Nobody cares who and who isn’t the best. We just care about the value provided so we can get on with getting laid and having awesome relationships.

We don’t care about you or how good you are, just about how much value you’re providing and right now you ain’t providing a damn thing.

Embarrassing.

Stick to teaching us about daygame and quit these gay ass polls..

big diva…

If you want more advice... you know how to get it.

I don't care what you think of me... but I don't appreciate name calling from guys I've given out free advice to.
 

Chase

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I wasn't going to comment on this, but

As for students... know this. Every single coach in that poll has sent or recommended their students to me for extra coaching while I was working for Girls Chase. I have never sent any of my students to another coach because I am that good at coaching.... this is a fact @Teevster @Gunwitch and @Chase can confirm.

I can't comment on @Gunwitch sending you a student, but... What student of mine did I ever send or recommend to you?

Teevster sent one student to you, one time, for a single session, because the guy really wanted day game help, and Teevster doesn't do that.

That's the only coaching you've ever done for Girls Chase. Only because Teevster went to bat for you.

He came to me and asked me if he could bring another coach in for a session... when he told me it was day game I said "get Tony or Hector" but he insisted on you... I guess because you were in his group and he'd been chatting with you and mentoring you for a while and felt like you were ready. He wanted to help you out and wanted to get you into coaching.

Bet he wishes he went with my recommendations in hindsight now though, huh...
 

Bacchus

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I wasn't going to comment on this, but



I can't comment on @Gunwitch sending you a student, but... What student of mine did I ever send or recommend to you?

Teevster sent one student to you, one time, for a single session, because the guy really wanted day game help, and Teevster doesn't do that.

That's the only coaching you've ever done for Girls Chase. Only because Teevster went to bat for you.

He came to me and asked me if he could bring another coach in for a session... when he told me it was day game I said "get Tony or Hector" but he insisted on you... I guess because you were in his group and he'd been chatting with you and mentoring you for a while and felt like you were ready. He wanted to help you out and wanted to get you into coaching.

Bet he wishes he went with my recommendations in hindsight now though, huh...

No I hadn't been chatting with him... and when I told you I was interested in coaching him... as you recommended... I never heard back.

This is the first I'm hearing of this backstory... you simply told me he liked what I've written.

I have a habit of giving out free advice... I'm a generous guy. But coaching is a business.
 
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Chase

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No I hadn't been chatting with him... and when I told you I was interested in coaching him... as you recommended... I never heard back.

???

Hadn't been chatting with Teevster?

Not interested in coaching who? I recommended what?

Are you talking about the coaching student @ulric had pitched you for a month back or so?

I know @ulric told me he had a student he'd talk to you about coaching for. This was right around the time you started fighting with everyone and sending messages to everybody about various arguments you were having. I asked @ulric to remove you from the coaching roster until the situation with you resolved, just so we weren't throwing students into a bunch of chaos.

I assume that's what you're talking about. Not sure what conversations you had with @ulric on your end about that one.

This is the first I'm hearing of this backstory... you simply told me he liked what I've written.

I have a habit of giving out free advice... I'm a generous guy. But coaching is a business.

Nobody's gone to bat for you more than @Teevster. Funny how he's become the #1 guy in your crosshairs.

But you and I both know that's how it works, don't we? I've seen this go down plenty before... And I know this isn't your first time doing this.

As for giving out free advice, yeah, that's how it works in the coaching business. The free advice is how guys decide if they think your paid advice is worth paying for.

And when the free advice stops, they forget all about you within a couple of months.

Just ask Mystery, or anybody else who's now out begging for coaching students.

Or ask me every time I've tried to step away from creating content in this business for 3+ months.

This industry is fickle, and folks get forgotten fast.

Chase
 
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