As I mentioned before, I don't really know what the term 'psychopath' means. It is a term with a vague/broad clinical definition, of which there seem to be many variants, that has been bastardized in media to manipulate emotions (from fear to excitement to envy).
It clearly exists in various forms, but I find talking about it tiring as it's never clear if we are talking about the same thing (or whether anyone reading this has the same notion as either of us).
Ok, true.
That's a stretch.
If psychopaths were superior in every way to 'normal' guys, this thread would not exist.
I didn't say that psychopaths are superior in every way. But they are superior in the categories I've listed.
- Mentally stronger (More resistance to stress, fear, social pressure, etc.)
- More ruthless
- More dominant
- More attractive to women due to the "badboy effect"
I should have also written: better manipulators (due to the psychopathic so called "superficial charm").
100% of male psychopaths I know are above average with women. Among normal guys it's something like maybe 1-2%. It's a staggering difference.
And I'm not idealising psychopathy due to some bias. Mainstream science says psychopaths have certain traits - and so it happens that these traits give an advantage in dealing with women.
In the triarchic model, psychopathy is composed of three traits:
1. Boldness.
2. Meanness.
3. Disinhibition.
I think it's really obvious that BOLD, disinhibited men, tend to have more succcess with women than men who are less bold and have more inhibitions.
Also, the psychopath traits generally match a "badboy" profile - mean (bad), bold guy without respect for autorithy and social rules. And as many people have noticed independently from each other, many women are attracted to badboys.
And psychopaths are also good liars, manipulators - they don't feel moral reservations, so they do it congruently, convincingly.
New research reveals how psychopathy and charisma sometimes go hand-in-hand.
www.psychologytoday.com
"They found a positive association between psychopathy and charisma—people who scored higher on the trait of psychopathy also tended to be more charismatic. "
So yes, psychopaths generally are superior to normal guys in a group of areas relevant in dealings with women. Like level of boldness, charisma, ability to manipulate and lie, being dominant, "badboy appeal", etc.
(BTW There is also another "privileged" group - narcissists.)
This is a normal response to a predatory threat.
Yes, but also:
1. It's useless. We live in a society and in the overwhelming majority of cases the psychopath isn't going to harm anyone even if he'd like to, because he doesn't want to go to jail. (And if he is going to harm someone, an emotional "fight or flight" reaction isn't going to stop him.) And from my own experience - the "fight or flight" activates in some other men when I'm not even thinking about any kind of violence or agression. Even when I'm not thinking about interacting with them at all - like the situation with bouncers standing before a club I was just passing by when walking somewhere else, which I described earlier in the thread.
2. This creates ego problems and lame dishonest posing - when a guy is trying to make it look like he's is not afraid, even though he is afraid. His own instincts tell him that I'm a dangerous predator and he's vulnerable prey - and he's trying to pose as confident or even dominant/tough. And since I have decades of experience with this stuff and these guys only encounter strong psychopatic vibes from time to time in their lives, they have no idea that I recognize their reactions and understand them better than they understand themselves.
3. Normal men don't understand that for women, the psychopath "dangerous guy" or "predator" vibe doesn't create the same kind of fear it creates in men. It creates a "badboy effect" and is attractive to a lot of women.
4. To me, this stuff is flattering, also funny, also lame on the part of these guys... Also kind of pointless really.
As I understand it, being psychopathic (if we are to entertain the vague mainstream notion of this concept) comes with a fair few drawbacks. The main one being that a psychopath is typically bad at impulse control, long term planning, and long term relationship management, meaning he/she keeps burning bridges and has to keep looking for new opportunities.
Nature selects for many things which are contrary to these characteristics, and nature does not make mistakes.
Psychopathy is generally linked with "problematic" traits and impulses, which can disorganise or even literally ruin somebody's life, but the severity of that and the level of control over it varies from person to person.
If somebody succumbs to murderous urges and murders somebody, then he's most likely going to jail for a large number of years and he's life is literally ruined. That's what psychopaths are "famous" for in the popular culture and it's a real thing.
There are also tendencies for less extreme "problematic" behaviors like physical assault without murder, reckless driving, driving under influence of alcohol, doing risky things "just for fun", irresponsibility in proffesional or family life, getting in debt, etc etc.
However, the severity of the problems vary greatly depending on a person. And some psychopaths live largely normal, stable lives, without a criminal record or debt, etc etc - psychologists call such people "successful psychopaths".
I've previously mentioned in the thread a psychopatic "friend" of mine who stole a police boat
just for fun. He was drunk and he thought it's a good idea to have a sail on the lake in a police boat.
He got a probation sentence for that. He also was limping - he said he fell out of a window during a party. Supposedly he was sitting in a window at a party, which I guess also means he was drunk, and somebody, also drunk I guess, wanted to hug him in a "hey man!" manner and accidently pushed him out. Perhaps it's not a good idea to sit in a window, especially when drunk and with are other drunk people around?
The guy had no loyalty - he was making new male friends, borrowing money from them and not giving it back, then made new male friends and repeated the process. His life was unstable and I think he was alone, alienated from everybody in the end. He died before 40 - I suspect suicide or reckless driving.
I think psychopathy ruined his life and I suspect also caused his death. He was what could be called a "UN-successful psychopath". Not in in the classical way of "murdered somebody and went to prison", but still.
BTW The guy was good with women. And also good at making new male friends. He didn't have a "serial killer" vibe like me - his weapon for so called "superficial charm" - he was excellent at pretending to be everybody's best friend and a great guy, great to be around and party with. Despite his life being generally a failure, he certainly got laid more than an average guy does.
Another psychopatic guy got a probation for driving under influence of alcohol. He also was in I think dozens of fist fights, was a drug dealer for a time, was also stealing stuff... But he never got charged for anything aside from the drunk driving. His life was unstable, he was often in debt... But women like him, they find him attractive and charming. He's got a bit of "badboy vibe" and has "superficial charm" as well. In one case (that I know of - there might be more) a girl who wanted to create a serious relationship with him borrowed him money - not a huge sum, but also not a small one - something like a few monthly salaries. And he never gave it back, was smiling and proud of himself to have cheated her.
He later became a truck driver and solved his financial issues, but he hangs out with low class people, drinks a lot and takes drugs, etc etc. And is generally a scoundrel. BTW I know him because we grew up on the same street.
His life isn't ruined, but it's a low-class life: shady friends, alcohol, drugs. But the guy has no problem getting laid - women are attracted to him, he's a "charming badboy" type. I woud say he's somewhere in the middle as far as successful or un-successful psychopathy is concerned - he was often in debt, but in the end, he's living the low-class life that's natural for him.
My best friend is a ruthless, manipulative, violent psychopatic guy. Who actually looks quite innocent and has no traces of either "serial killer" vibe like me or "badboy" vibe like the truck driver guy from above. He was in many fistfights, enjoyed going to parties both for the girls and for the fighting. He's also prone to domestic violence - when there's an argument in a relationship, he often hits the woman in the face. Despite that, he's got no "dark" vibe - instead, he looks like a good, dependable partner and has "superficial charm". Because of that women treat him as good boyfriend and husband material... And despite getting laid a lot (laycount of hundreds), he complains about being treated as relationship material - unlike me and some other guys, who are often treated as "lover types". He's amazed and envious about how many women want me to treat them as sluts/slaves/trash - in his case, women want him to treat them as ladies. His a violent, cruel guy who appears to be a good, gentle guy and who's dissatisfied that women later expect him to be what he appears to be.
He's a really good friend to me and also a very responsible and hard working professional - I think this is what is creating his misleading "good guy", "dependable guy" vibe. It's like his vibe is showing his good qualities, not his bad qualities.
I think I see 4 kinds of successful/unsuccessful psychopathy:
1. Major unsuccessful psychopaths who murder somebody and have their lives ruined by going to jail - like Ted Bundy, etc.
2. Minor unsuccessful psychopaths who don't murder anybody, but ruin their life by lack of responsibility - like my former friend the police boat thief - who died before 40.
3. "In the middle" psychopaths who have some chaos in their lives, but their lives also aren't exactly ruined - like my truck driver childhood friend.
4. Successful psychopaths - with no major chaos, no criminal record, etc - like me and my best friend.
In case of group 4, guys like me and my best friend get laid a lot more than normal guys do, also we have assets in non-seduction situations like being calm under pressure and being good liars when there's a need. And we live good lives. So we reap the benefits of psychopathy without experiencing the downsides and I think it's clearly better than being "normal".
BTW:
1. Me, my best friend, truck driver, police boat thief - we are/were all good looking. Not model like, bot above average. And I don't know - do I simply become friends with psychopaths who are in the same physical "league" as me.... Or do good looks somehow support psychopatic behaviors?
2. For some reason, my best friend and the police boat thief don't have a dark vibe, dangerous vibe lie I do. The truck driver has some dark vibe, but not as much as me - he's like a "rowdy badboy", while I have a more serious "serial killer" vibe. I find it surprising that my best friend, who is quite a violent guy, doesn't have any kind of "dangerous" vibe.
Also, my girlfriend is a "successful psychopath". She likes extreme dominance, abuse, physical violence - and she did a lot of bad things to people, including physically assaulting strangers "just for fun". She liked hitting people with her fists - and as she's a 180 centimeters/5'11 fit woman with combat sport training, she actually can punch hard. She enjoyed the randomness and adrenaline of it, as well the feeling of superiority and getting away with it. She says she had a period in her life when she was
addicted to violence - like some people are addicted to smoking, alcohol or gambling. She got worried she will eventually get caught and sentenced, so she quit the violence addiction like other people quit smoking. She says she did dozens of things which were crimes, but never got charged with anything.
She also abused her partners a lot - emotionally, physically (beatings), sexually (some "heavy" stuff).
And also did a lot of group sex in her life - with men, with women, or in mixed groups. She's got a very high lay count. It's not pleasant for me to think about that, but she did what she did.
She's 10/10 super hot, dresses elegantly, behaves well in public, and people don't know her well have no idea what kind of person she really is. If somebody would tell the truth to her more distant friends, family, coworkers, people who see her on the street...they would think it's some kind of ridiculous, insane slander. And "high value" men - those who think they have a chance with her - try to impress her, manipulate her... They have no idea that they're dealing wtih a cunning, brutal predator who makes them look like boyscouts in comparison.
BTW Her 10/10 looks were a contributing factor - they gave her a sense of superiority and entitlement, gave her a limitless supply of men who would simp for her, white-knight, justify and glorify her no matter what she did, etc etc. And her violence was initially ignited by female jealousy about her looks - in her teen years, another girl was pissed that my girlfriend has the interest of the most handsome guys that the other girl was interested in, that she gets invited to best parties, etc etc. The other girl faked friendhip and befriended my girlfriend, in order to go with her to the best parties - but it has backfired, because at the best parties, she was still outclassed by my girlfriend and other hot girls (she wasn't ugly, but she was around 5/10). She became bitter, started to do strange toxic gaslighting and tried the make my girlfriend believe she is stupid and she somehow needs the other girl as her "caretaker" who makes decisions for her (WTF!). My girlfriend tried to talk sense in her, but the other girl was stubborn and insolent... So my girlfriend, being tall and fit and very strong compared to her body size, beat the other girl bloody and found out that she enjoys violence. Also the boys were now even more impressed with her then before, so she got validation for being violent.
Generally, psychopatic people often do risky, impulsive behaviors - and some suffer the consequences, but others get away with it. And the normal people most often have no idea about it and about how a normal-looking person might be really a psychopath doing some "controversial" things when the public is not looking.
You seem to have a problem with what you see as fraudulent PUAs.
I don't doubt that there are/were a lot of scammers in this field. As I said before, I don't consume a lot of typical PUA material as much of it seems weird to me. I enjoy many of the girls chase articles because they go in depth into the principles and the history of things - some of them are more intellectual works than anything else. And when they are technical, they try to connect the techniques to fundamental principles. In my view, principles are key, and information should be scanned not for details but for principles.
That said, there's no point coming into a forum full of PUAs and vaguely insinuating that lots of them are fraudulent. That's no different from someone speaking in vague negative terms about psychopathy.
It's not about insinuating that PUAs on this forum are fraudulent. It's about giving the information that PUA community always was largely corrupt and that many of the "big names" were much worse than some people think. I wish somebody would tell me those things when I first came to the community. But I only lost around 2-3 years - I know many PUAs who got brainwashed so hard that they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge reality even after 10 or 20 years and will probably stay brainwashed until they die. I mean situations in which experienced PUAs insist that methods which failed to give them good results, despite decaded of trying, are somehow "great".
I knew this even when I was very socially awkward, because there were times when for some reason the fog cleared and my expression was powerful, I felt like it exuded without interference though every part of my body, and it made all the difference in the effect I had on people. I never forgot that, and I've been reminded of it many times.
Ah yes, the "magical moments". Sometimes I've felt like I was kind of "walking on air", pushed by some kind of "magical force". Incredible moments. I wish I knew what triggers them.
I very rarely encounter someone who I feel is in that same zone - though I've found that I can produce something of the same effect in women, their faces and body language will change around me as they feel the contagious lack of inhibition. I enjoy this very much.
Yes, it's very rare.
BTW From what I've seen, guys with really good energy are almost always naturals from outside the PUA community, not PUAs.
For me sex was almost a spiritual turning point in my life. Because in many ways women do not lie in the way that society does. There were parts of myself I hardly knew existed, because I never had a good way to experience them. And with women, I found that these parts of myself were there, that they produced immediate validation in the form of arousal, excitement, and submissiveness, and that through sex we could both relish in what I was.
For me sexuality is also kind of "spiritual", "supernatural" or something like that.
And working backwards from there, I was able to figure out how to experience these parts of myself in everyday life as well, not just for pleasure, but to be effective in all sorts of different ways.
What do you mean by that?
Do you simply mean that the relaxation, satisfaction from sex "radiates" to other areas of life as well? Or is it something more specific?
All the worst reactions I've had were from average looking women who heavily depended on social norms to get them the things in life that they wanted.
I don't remember ever being treated badly by a truly beautiful girl. Sometimes they are uninterested, but they will acknowledge me in some way, as I acknowledge them.
My impression is that the beautiful girls are less frustrated - being appreciated, having abudance of choices in their lives, etc etc.
And an average girl often "can't afford" the atrractive guy she really likes (because the attractive guy is with a hot girl), so she has to "settle" for a guy she doesn't really like. This easily leads to frustration and frustrated, mean energy.
I've also noticed that women who's priority is something other than love or sex - like financial gain, social status, making career, often have unpleasant energy. (BTW It's different if the girl is a golddigger but for example she's doing it for fun and she's fucking one guy for money, another guy for good sex, etc - such a golddiger can have really nice energy. The girls who have horrible energy are those who are very strongly and exclusively focused on money/social status/career.)
This is your relationship, and you and her both seem happy with it.
That doesn't mean it's what every other guy or girl is looking for. In fact, I'd say it's very few people who look at the world in those terms.
My girlfriend is certainly a rare, extreme case, but she's also a part of a spectrum.
Many girls, including shy/"soft" girls react to me in a manner which is esstentially similiar, just less assertive and self-aware. Less specific, more in a form of a general emotion of "I feel aroused and submissive towards that guy". It's often a nonverbal "Please, Sir, please make me your sex slave".
A LOT of girls are attracted to men with "dark", dangerous vibes. That's why many female erotic novels have the main heroine fall in love with a man who is a vampire.
I would say my dark vibe resembles a "vampire vibe".
My girlfriend describes it by saying I'm "venomous like a snake". Some of my male friends say I have a "serial killer" vibe. My best friend says I have "inhuman eyes", eyes "like a snake". (snake comparison again!) These are just labels, words used to try to describe something which is hard to describe.
There is no symmetry when it comes to this - A LOT of women are drawn to "dark vibes", while very few men have these "dark vibes".
There are A LOT of women with a deep desire to be somehow dominated and "opressed" by a "bad/evil male". Attraction towards badboys is a part of that spectrum, but for many women the potential doesn't stop there.
My girlfriend is a useful example, because due to her being extreme, she articulates this "crazy kinky perspective" with huge clarity. But there is A LOT of girls who have similar urges - just less extreme, with less awareness and assertivenes. It's a more of something like "Please, Sir, cum into me and....be a bit brutal Sir".
Most men don't understand these dynamics - because they themselves don't cause such effects, reactions in women. Some notice that "women are attracted to badboys" - but don't see that it's only part of the spectrum.
I myself would have never understood it the way I do if I didn't have my "dark vibe" - and if I didn't experience all those kinky, "crazy" reactions and behaviors it has created in women. So I understand perfectly why other men don't know about such stuff, but at the same time it's weird to see how they erroneously think they have good understanding of women.
I am curious do other men also feel fear from you?
Some do, some do not. I think it's depends on their intuition, emotional sensitivity or something like that.
are you physically also threatening?
in case you are in situation where someone and physically beat you to pulp will you be able to induce fear in them.
It doesn't really work "on demand" - but the 3 bouncers were afraid of me, and also both my best friend and the truck driver guy described earlier in this post had a lot of fist fights in their lives and they're both saying I look dangerous.
Or say some authority figure which can damage your career, will you be able to induce fear in them or do you look at pure preys?
I don't know, I haven't really tried using my "super powers" on people who are middle aged or old men. But I noticed women in position of authority clearly like me.
I mostly observe how this stuff works on attractive, young women, with some "extra material" provided by relatively young men.
and if analyse first this is an easy target then don’t it makes you feel weak and emasculated when a stronger person appears whom you cannot dominate?
I never feel weak or emasculated. I have felt relaxed and natural even among criminals. I didn't dominate them, didn't try to, but many criminals liked me.
