First 90 Days Relationship Escalation Windows, Early 2 Year Drop, Advanced LTR Set Up Skills

DeepDive

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Hey team first post here! I have a somewhat advanced relationship question or at least some thoughts. Do let me know if I'm breaking any rules.

Background: I'd consider myself intermediate to advanced. I'm not perfect, but I have a pretty decent abundance mentality, though I do enjoy passionate relationships/flings. So recent story:
-I pick up and a few days later go on a first date with this amazing girl. It was probably the first date I ever had, absolute relationship material and we deep dived for hours. Bad logistics so I don't get to escalate very much (that's somewhat on me).
-2nd date more hours of deep dive. Despite her saying she doesn't do anything physical outside of relationships I get a blow job later that night.
-3rd date we deep dive more and I learn she is a really genuinely relationship-oriented girl (like 1 partner by 22, don't think she was just bsing me when she said that stuff on the second date), I preemptively tell her I want to get to know each other before I jump into a relationship that and she's cool with my honesty but will want to take things to slow physically, I still bed her later that night.
-Fast forward a month later she actually finds an amazing job opportunity that will take her out of town for a month. On our last night in my city for a while she brings up a relationship, and I tell her let's stay in touch and talk about it when she returns.
-We do stay in touch, and I actually visit here for a day on a business trip out there. Things are great in my mind.
-When she does return she I bring up the idea of a relationship and ask her where her head is at. She actually tells me she was extremely hurt that I didn't go for one earlier and isn't sure she wants one anymore. I say that's disappointing and I never meant it as a reflection on her, that's just how I am. But I also say I understand let's take our time with it. A few weeks later she breaks it off altogether, despite me being very clear I'm still open to a relationship, that I love her (yeah at this point I have no chance).

Note: Even now I have decent abundance, so this isn't like a "how do I get her back" post. I'm not even sure I'd want that (though I may try bed her again some point ;)) It's more of a how can I avoid this going forward. I am disappointed because I feel like I whiffed on a potentially amazing relationship, and this sort of thing has happened to me a few times.



A few things come to mind with this that I'm not sure have been covered on here!
1. Is there such a thing as an "relationship escalation windows"? If so, I think I missed one. I know we are all coached to let the girl ask, but when she does ask is that potentially your one chance? or did I mess something else up? Maybe this is similar to the 2 year drop, but for some girls (many I date I guess) this comes wayyy sooner.
2. Similarly is there "relationship auto-rejection"? Can you recover from this?
3. I wonder if some intermediate/advanced guys worry to much about neediness. I mean when we first start we all need to conquer neediness and get to some level of abundance, but once you're there being excessively non challant/non committal seems like it starts to hold you back. Especially if high quality LTRs are a goal.
4. Is there a non needy way to proactively seek a relationship. When I like a girl, I like her and I know I want it. It's almost never that I need her, but I do passionately want her to be my girlfriend. It'd be cool to see a post on how super passionate/romantic guys can use those traits in the early stages of relationships without blowing it or becoming needy. I usually do this by avoiding it for 1-3 months and continuing to date other girls, but more often than not this seems to backfire with my primary targets. I don't necessarily consider lying to be an option either, though I'm happy to deep dive on how that can be done ethically too.


In general, it'd be cool so see an article (or point me to ones I've missed) on some advanced early relationship game and being proactive with commitment points! Some insight on going for what you want early and often.

Thanks!

DeepDive

TLDR; are there "relationship escalation windows"? Can you proactively seek a monogamous relationship without being "needy"?
 

johndoe

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I've read a lot of GirlsChase as a teen, so I know the terms. I'm going to use a more layperson lingo in my responses to you, however, because I think that gives it more heart, which is what I think you're ultimately lacking in. You're treating the seduction process as a purely technical one, which may make you come across distant at best, and conniving at worst.

1. What happened was that she took it as a no when you told her to talk about it when she returned. So she went through a whole emotional episode feeling like she got rejected and started distancing herself from you emotionally. Then when you asked again, you were chasing when she wasn't that invested anymore. Did you miss a window? Somewhat. I would have either offered her some sort of commitment or forward progress (i.e. keeping a text thread between you both, or maybe Skyping her once every X days), or told her that I don't like doing LDRs and just get in touch with her again when she was back. The latter option is a bit of a wildcard though, because you risk losing her. Personally, I think LDRs are a pretty raw deal, because you've got to provide a significant chunk of your time without getting any sex, so I wouldn't do it unless I really liked a girl.

I think one of the things that I realised which isn't oft-mentioned in the forums is we shouldn't get complacent when a girl is more invested in us than we are in them. This dynamic can flip anytime down the road, so we shouldn't rest on our laurels and think the battle is won.

2. Back off and wait for her to get in touch with you. Not much else you can do here.

3. I don't think neediness is something that you can fix. It depends on a whole lot of factors that are in your present life situation. You'll have to constantly engineer your life situation to minimise its impact (e.g. heading out more often to meet girls, meditation, etc.), but that's really about all you can do. I would say to not let the fear of appearing needy restrict you from investing into her. Just try not to invest more than she does. It's tough to properly calibrate this based on theory -- you're gonna have to make mistakes (i.e. start investing) to learn this I think.

4. If you like a girl that much, I'd say just ask her for a relationship. It doesn't put you in the best position, but it's very hard to be congruent if that desire of yours is strong. I tend to avoid being the one asking for relationships first because building one is genuinely a lot of work, while keeping things fun and casual (i.e. dates and lots of sex) is not. Relationships happen when you grow close enough that things can't stay as fun and as casual anymore.

If you are dating / having sex with multiple girls before you've settled into a relationship, tell your girl about it. You'll be surprised at what they can accept, provided you let them know about it while they are still getting to know you. I think it gets harder to set a frame like that the longer you drag it.
 
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DeepDive

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Thanks @johndoe

I do approach almost everything somewhat analytically, and I'm not super ingrained in this community but I love the vocabulary that GirlsChase has built up. That's one of major strengths of the writing on this site, the precise descriptions of situations get everyone on the same page quickly and allow for great discussion. I'm a big nerd for the great use of words and good writing in general haha.

You're correct though, I don't think I come across as distant, but certainly as uncertain (and I honestly am uncertain most of the time). This has spun into conniving or manipulative when I communicate that uncertainty poorly, was a big problem when I was younger.

A good question I'm exploring now: How to lead when you're very uncertain about what you want? My intuition is the answer is somewhat brutal honesty about that always.

What happened was that she took it as a no when you told her to talk about it when she returned. So she went through a whole emotional episode feeling like she got rejected and started distancing herself from you emotionally. Then when you asked again, you were chasing when she wasn't that invested anymore.
This is absolutely true. I did actually call her a few times a week while she was gone, but the lack of "official relationship" status was a big deal to her. Far more than I realized until she had already distanced herself.


I think one of the things that I realised which isn't oft-mentioned in the forums is we shouldn't get complacent when a girl is more invested in us than we are in them. This dynamic can flip anytime down the road, so we shouldn't rest on our laurels and think the battle is won.
This is so true.


Just try not to invest more than she does. It's tough to properly calibrate this based on theory -- you're gonna have to make mistakes (i.e. start investing) to learn this I think.
This is a key insight I needed to remember. It's not so much that I need to minimize neediness, I'm actually okay at doing that through all the methods you mentioned and my general life set-up. I need to learn to calibrate my investment to hers. Rereading this one....


Sometimes I need to realize I'm not investing nearly as much as I should be if I want to keep her. Also you need to recognize or push for what's really important to your girl (haha you know they won't just come out and say it). I thought I was investing a lot with the phone calls and the visit, and exclusivity and/or 'official relationship' status is no big deal to me but it was HUGE to her.
 

johndoe

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Thanks @johndoe

I do approach almost everything somewhat analytically, and I'm not super ingrained in this community but I love the vocabulary that GirlsChase has built up. That's one of major strengths of the writing on this site, the precise descriptions of situations get everyone on the same page quickly and allow for great discussion. I'm a big nerd for the great use of words and good writing in general haha.

You're correct though, I don't think I come across as distant, but certainly as uncertain (and I honestly am uncertain most of the time). This has spun into conniving or manipulative when I communicate that uncertainty poorly, was a big problem when I was younger.

A good question I'm exploring now: How to lead when you're very uncertain about what you want? My intuition is the answer is somewhat brutal honesty about that always.


This is absolutely true. I did actually call her a few times a week while she was gone, but the lack of "official relationship" status was a big deal to her. Far more than I realized until she had already distanced herself.



This is so true.



This is a key insight I needed to remember. It's not so much that I need to minimize neediness, I'm actually okay at doing that through all the methods you mentioned and my general life set-up. I need to learn to calibrate my investment to hers. Rereading this one....


Sometimes I need to realize I'm not investing nearly as much as I should be if I want to keep her. Also you need to recognize or push for what's really important to your girl (haha you know they won't just come out and say it). I thought I was investing a lot with the phone calls and the visit, and exclusivity and/or 'official relationship' status is no big deal to me but it was HUGE to her.
Depends on what you're uncertain about. If it's about a situation you're tackling (e.g. finding directions), you can approach it from an "I don't know how this will turn out, but let's try XXX". If you're uncertain about the both of you, tell her about it, and see where her mind is. Offer her some assurance (as much as you can without being dishonest) so she doesn't auto-reject.

Uncertainty comes very naturally to people who think a lot. The more analytical you are, the more uncertain you will be. I've learnt that there is a certain point where you'll have to stop the analysis and just "follow your heart" (i.e. do what you really want). Our analytical capabilities are naturally limited by biases and errors in our perception, so we often (due to inexperience) overanalyse things that may ultimately be insignificant and freak ourselves out.

On the topic of pushing for something with a girl, I think it's alright to ask for a relationship if you really want it. What's a bigger no-no is doing relationship stuff without communicating your intention of wanting a relationship, which sounded like what you were doing: you gave her an implicit no, then she auto-rejected and you started invested by doing the relationship stuff with her. It might've worked better if you had told her you were rethinking having the relationship before you invested.
 

DeepDive

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What's a bigger no-no is doing relationship stuff without communicating your intention of wanting a relationship
Spot on that's exactly what I did, and I honestly do that all the time. I think to some degree it is because I don't pull the trigger. But it's also because I never view being "in a relationship" as important or think about it much, and I do get nervous about being exclusive, but I'm still very romantic and like to connect in a relationshipy way. Definitely comes off as incongruent to people who have different values and expectations than mine, I need to work on communicating all that better.

Just asking for what you really want (and taking the time to think about what that is) does always seem like the move. If you do 80/20 analysis on successful game that's the crux of it.
 

johndoe

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Spot on that's exactly what I did, and I honestly do that all the time. I think to some degree it is because I don't pull the trigger. But it's also because I never view being "in a relationship" as important or think about it much, and I do get nervous about being exclusive, but I'm still very romantic and like to connect in a relationshipy way. Definitely comes off as incongruent to people who have different values and expectations than mine, I need to work on communicating all that better.

Just asking for what you really want (and taking the time to think about what that is) does always seem like the move. If you do 80/20 analysis on successful game that's the crux of it.
In general, I've noticed (at least in where I live in) that naturally, women tend to be the more decisive in romance and relationship-based decisions, while men tend to be more wishy-washy. Generally because it is so much easier for a woman to replace a man than the other way round. It is romantic to think that when we start chasing, it's a noble thing, but it usually stems from a selfish place -- we fear the emotional pain, and the idea that we might never be able to replace him / her.

It's possible for a man to flip the equation around, but you have to develop yourself to a point where you provide much more value to a girl's life than she does for you (and I'm not talking about financial value either, which I think doesn't matter that much). It's a tall order, and not many men get there, but if you do, a lot of the things that this site talks about, like chase framing and not supplicating / being needy comes very naturally.
 
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West_Indian_Archie

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A few things come to mind with this that I'm not sure have been covered on here!
1. Is there such a thing as an "relationship escalation windows"? If so, I think I missed one. I know we are all coached to let the girl ask, but when she does ask is that potentially your one chance? or did I mess something else up? Maybe this is similar to the 2 year drop, but for some girls (many I date I guess) this comes wayyy sooner.

Hmm, good questions.

The PUA Side - I think you understand the basic PUA aspect of the relationship stuff - I.e. she has to be the one to invest, she has to be the one to push for it.

So where did you make the mistake?

In the run up, you built WAY too much comfort/trust with all that deep diving. (I've run into this myself, it's why I know it well)

Your actions tell her - "I understand you" + you being sexually attractive = Soul Mate. She cannot ask for more (even though they do)

So to change up your steez with an abrupt "take things slow" and rejecting her relationship advances was basically the death of hope. Your behavior was not consistent with previous words and behavior. It makes you look like a "player" i.e. someone that plays with her heart.

The Red Pill Aspect - not that you care about RP, but there are probably 1,000 lurkers reading - but I think you've got covered.
- You have your purpose
- You have your skill set and body count
- You did the basic screening
- You took a bit of an L by going out to see her. It shows "thirst". (it's also inconsistent PUA wise as well)

Regarding Game - It's not clear to me that this girl serves you any purpose other than you have a good time and enjoy her company.
This isn't really a Game sub, but one of the keys to proper Game is that she has to do more for you in a real and substantive way other than have a pretty face and pleasant to be around.

In terms of a relationship escalation window, in my opinion, hitting her with multiple deep dives started the clock. You needed to go exclusive/time monopoly after the first bang. Then the relationship only gets formalized after the actions are consistent with boyfriend and girlfriend. (i.e. you spend most of your time together when it's not work or school).

If you're spending most of your time with a chick, words or not, you're the de facto boyfriend. I think a lot of guys think 1 time a week is too much.

That said, making it official adds more layers to it. (Social Media, her actual social network, demands on time and money,etc)

2. Similarly is there "relationship auto-rejection"? Can you recover from this?

Guys categorize women in 3 ways
- just sex
- relationship worthy
- invisible.

Women categorize guys in 4 ways
- just sex
- relationship worthy
- usable/useful
- invisible.

Most men are invisible. Not on her sexual or social radar.

Guys that are socially useful are the "let's just be friends" type guys or let's use this guy for his resources.

Just Sex - is usually the toxic bad boy that she can have a lot of emotions with, but deep down she thinks she'll never commit.
The reality is that she often gets trapped with Mr Toxic in trying to change him, or having his baby.

Relationship Worthy - She wins personally, she wins sexually, but most of all she wins socially. Parents, friends, co-workers, all approve. The relationship bar is much much higher. It's way easier to sleep with a girl multiple times than in it is to be her main guy. These days, attractive girls have their own male harems.

Most guys are autorejected out of course.

Guys that don't make her feel a 'certain way' (turned on) are usable/useful. (A lot of provider type guys fit into this. And they can and do sleep with girls on the basis of the girl's desire for their provisions - be they material or emotional)

Guys that she'll have sex with are usually then cut into these 2 categories of the lover or the soul mate.

In my experience, the auto- relationship-rejection happens around the time when she first deals with you.

Again in your situation, you hit both the lover and soul mate buttons, but then changed up your behavior.

3. I wonder if some intermediate/advanced guys worry to much about neediness. I mean when we first start we all need to conquer neediness and get to some level of abundance, but once you're there being excessively non challant/non committal seems like it starts to hold you back. Especially if high quality LTRs are a goal.

A real master of the game, a pimp, does not need sex. And a woman's inability to influence him the primary way that she knows how, is one of the things that keeps her enthralled. ...

We ain't pimps.

What you're talking about? Neediness is not really the right term.

Needing a girl in your life, wanting a girl in your life is not neediness.
Neediness kicks in when you're willing to compromise yourself/your mission, just to have the girl in your life.

I've been needy. I can speak from experience as a veteran slayer, I've moved across country to be with a girlfriend - even though that compromised me which in turn compromised the relationship. It was a hard lesson to learn. But the Game is always willing to teach something when you least want it.

So rather than try to "be cool" with every girl, super nonchalant, it's okay to be ON FIRE for the girl, with 2 provisos

1) She might dislike the intensity. Good. Let her leave, good riddance. If you show a girl kindness and she reacts with cruelty or indifference, she's not a good person. As the kids say, "She's for the streets". And if you have to turn off HEALTHY parts of yourself to stick with a chick - she's running game on you, she's controlling you. Whole lot of guys getting laid have contorted themselves for pussy, only to find out after the first 2 dozen or so, the journey was the best part.

2) You must have a code, or a mission.

A big part of a relationship is having boundaries
, having her know them, respect them, and checking her when she crosses a line, and punishing her when it's egregious. Those "lines she can't cross" - that's where your code comes in. That's something you develop. It's personal.

Mission - this is real big these days, but most guys don't have any burning desire to do anything. And often times, guys with a mission, fail at the mission. Those that succeed, often don't care about women in the first place. "Nice to Have vs Need to Have vs a Burden"


4. Is there a non needy way to proactively seek a relationship. When I like a girl, I like her and I know I want it. It's almost never that I need her, but I do passionately want her to be my girlfriend. It'd be cool to see a post on how super passionate/romantic guys can use those traits in the early stages of relationships without blowing it or becoming needy. I usually do this by avoiding it for 1-3 months and continuing to date other girls, but more often than not this seems to backfire with my primary targets. I don't necessarily consider lying to be an option either, though I'm happy to deep dive on how that can be done ethically too.

Yes. Be straight with yourself. And be straight with these females. You want what you want. And if she's not feeling it, get rid of her ASAP.

That said, you're not asking a girl to be the mother of your children because she likes ASAP Rocky and gave you a mean hand job.

Approach the chick and act like you're looking for something serious.

Judge her. And when she fails, dismiss her.

WIA
 

DeepDive

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In the run up, you built WAY too much comfort/trust with all that deep diving. (I've run into this myself, it's why I know it well)

Your actions tell her - "I understand you" + you being sexually attractive = Soul Mate. She cannot ask for more (even though they do
Spot on
Your actions tell her - "I understand you" + you being sexually attractive = Soul Mate. She cannot ask for more (even though they do)

So to change up your steez with an abrupt "take things slow" and rejecting her relationship advances was basically the death of hope. Your behavior was not consistent with previous words and behavior. It makes you look like a "player" i.e. someone that plays with her heart.
Also spot on thanks @West_Indian_Archie I'm for sure a natural deep diver, and when a girl does fall for me she falls hard in a whirlwind (not every girl but there's a type that connects with me here). It comes off as really incongruent when I don't want to be exclusive immediately or I hesitate with it.

I think I need to either a) lean into exclusive or semi exclusivity immediately if I like her, even own it myself and lead it there. Sure this may blow up in my face sometimes, but I'll enjoy the ride haha b) dial down the deep dive on girls on not sure about and just trying to bed. This won't be super fun for me and I think may make the sex worse, but I can try it. It's probably the ethical thing to do in some cases c) develop an amazing romantic but free lover frame, talk about ethical nonmonogamy (even one way nonmonogamy) early and often and get here to buy into it during the deep dive. I actually do this to some degree already subconsciously. This might be the hardest option but could really work if I wanted to go MLTR route.


The PUA Side - I think you understand the basic PUA aspect of the relationship stuff - I.e. she has to be the one to invest, she has to be the one to push for it.
The PUA, redpill, and game stuff is all great. Espcially early in the game its good to have some "rules" to follow. I can say with 100% certainty that without that material, the best of which is coming from this site, there's no way I'd be landing girls like this one. The problems I'm having now are far better than the ones I've had in the past haha

That said, something I've been thinking about lately is that as we approach a more intermediate level we can start breaking some of the rules to suit our personalities. Like once a basketball player gets good at dribbling, he can start to do some tricks, throw some behind the back passes. Of course the core of it (having a mission, fast physical escalation, preselection, logistics etc.) needs to stay, and should be revistied frequently.

Following that thread, I find it interesting that as you get to a more intermediate/advanced place (not that I'm 100% there, I still work on the basics a lot) you get to start picking your goals, like getting a masters degree in a specific topic. Do you want 1000 nothces, all the hottest day game biddies, MLTR/FBs, an alpha provider marriage? Maybe focus on one of those for a few months/years and then another? But whatever you choose you need to focus on different skills. LTR guys need to really hone relationship skills, and notch guys need to work in the field way more. Of course everyone needs a mission, the willingness/ability to walk away, and some reasonable avenue for new girls but the the skill sets that need extra work diverge a bit.

It be cool to see an article from a veteran on making those choices, and transitioning from begginer (who just needs to get out and approach and date for practice) to an intermediate/advanced seducer with some options.


Needing a girl in your life, wanting a girl in your life is not neediness.
Love this, and I think its absolutely true once you get decent at the basics. There are girls whom I badly want, but geninuely don't need. I'm finding more and more I can get away with expressing that desire in a very direct/romantic way and they eat it up because a) they want me to want them b) despite me chasing them, they can sense I really don't need it and have other options. Of course this comes with two big caveats a) I'm only beggingin to get to this point with some girls, after several years of work on my game, fundamentals, lifestyle etc b) It seems to still be important to have some frames where they are chasing me mixed in, then they are really happy when I chase them a bit, push pull kind of thing

So rather than try to "be cool" with every girl, super nonchalant, it's okay to be ON FIRE for the girl, with 2 provisos
There's a place for being cool and nanchallant, especially when you first start or if you need check you're getting kinda needy and behavior a bit. Some degree of "fake it til you make it" is a good tool. But once I started getting to a decent level of abundance this only undermines me, makes me come of as an incongruent, fake, uncertain, player.


1) She might dislike the intensity. Good. Let her leave, good riddance. If you show a girl kindness and she reacts with cruelty or indifference, she's not a good person. As the kids say, "She's for the streets". And if you have to turn off HEALTHY parts of yourself to stick with a chick - she's running game on you, she's controlling you. Whole lot of guys getting laid have contorted themselves for pussy, only to find out after the first 2 dozen or so, the journey was the best part.

2) You must have a code, or a mission.

A big part of a relationship is having boundaries
, having her know them, respect them, and checking her when she crosses a line, and punishing her when it's egregious. Those "lines she can't cross" - that's where your code comes in. That's something you develop. It's personal.

Mission - this is real big these days, but most guys don't have any burning desire to do anything. And often times, guys with a mission, fail at the mission. Those that succeed, often don't care about women in the first place. "Nice to Have vs Need to Have vs a Burden"
This is all spot on, thanks! "Being yourself" is bad advice when "yourself" isn't solidy grounded, but when you own who you are and are willing to lose deals/girls/whatever over it AND have a mission you AND have solid fundamentals/game/skills you are in a really good place to be super authentic. People love you for that, and to hell with them if they don't ;)

I just want to say I'm pretty new to posting in this community, but I am so grateful for girlschase. The thinking here has absolutely made me a better man over the years.
 
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