Seduction.. Evil or Moral? Wikipedia's take on it

Mr.Rob

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This is Wikipedia's definition of seduction:

Seduction is the process of deliberately enticing a person, to engage in a relationship, to lead astray, as from duty, rectitude, or the like; to corrupt, to persuade or induce to engage in sexual behaviour. Strategies of seduction include conversation and sexual scripts,[1] paralingual features,[2] non-verbal communication,[3][4] and short-term behavioural strategies.[5] The word seduction stems from Latin and means literally "leading astray."[6] As a result, the term may have a positive or negative connotation. Famous seducers from history or legend include Lilith, Giacomo Casanova, and the fictional character Don Juan. The emergence of the Internet and technology has supported the availability and the existence of a seduction community, which is based on discourse about seduction. This is predominately by "pickup artists" (PUA). Seduction is also used within marketing to increase compliance and willingness.[7]

Seduction, seen negatively, involves temptation and enticement, often sexual in nature, to lead someone astray into a behavioral choice they would not have made if they were not in a state of sexual arousal. Seen positively, seduction is a synonym for the act of charming someone — male or female — by an appeal to the senses, often with the goal of reducing unfounded fears and leading to their "sexual emancipation." Some sides in contemporary academic debate state that the morality of seduction depends on the long-term impacts on the individuals concerned, rather than the act itself, and may not necessarily carry the negative connotations expressed in dictionary definitions.

I find the distinction between negative vs. positive seduction to be quite an on point and fair perspective of differentiation and really liked the definitions of the two from wikipedia. I agree the morality depends fully on the long-term impact of the individual seduced. If your someone who ever has concerns with the morality of their chronic womanizing a good lens to look at your behavior through is the lens of the long term impact on the women you've seduced.

Are your sexual conquests, whether you dated them in a long term capacity or not, better off or worse off after the fact? Would they smile at the memory or quickly try and dismiss you from their conscience thought? Would they view themselves in a good light or with self hate in being seduced by you?

If you go a level deeper you could easily make the argument that the morality of seduction has more to do with one's ability to circumnavigate sex regret than in the actual morality of their actions. I.e. you could rape a girl but if half way through having sex you convinced her she likes it and by the end of sex she enjoyed herself and you help her rationalize the situation to reframe the situation so that she would look back on the encounter in a positive light and didn't regret it then would you have acted morally?

Its an interesting thought experiment. What do you guys think?

-Rob
 

Space

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I'm not British or American, nor a lawyer, so I can't make much out of Encyclopædia Britannica's definition:

Seduction, in law, the act of a man enticing (without the use of physical force) a previously chaste woman to consent to sexual intercourse. In broader usage, the term refers to any act of persuasion, between heterosexual or homosexual individuals, and excluding the issue of chastity, that leads to sexual intercourse.

Seduction has not as a rule been a criminal offense in most Western countries, but in the United States statutes in most states imposed criminal liability upon the seducing male. The elements of the crime varied, consisting of one or more of the following: intercourse with a female by trickery or under a promise of marriage; a requirement that the female be previously chaste; a requirement that the female be under a certain age, ranging from 18 to 25; and a requirement that the defendant be over a certain age. A seduction prosecution was barred in most states by marriage with the seducer and in others by an offer of marriage. Several states refused to allow a conviction for seduction without corroboration of the testimony of the seduced female. See also rape.
An explanation for an outsider like me would be interesting, though.
 

Space

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To address your question, Mr.Rob, to be on the safe side I've always recommended to, besides strange PUA books which you can only buy from funny websites and they are only available in PDF format even in 2018 for some reason, throw in at least 50% of published books to your reading list you can buy on Amazon or normal bookstores. Now many PUAs self-publish on Amazon, but I still find self-publishing a normal book better than selling obscured PDFs on your funny website. But definitely add some books published by traditional publishers on topics of a slightly broader scale (outsize womanizing) and you probably turn out to be on the safe side as far as I'm concerned.

OFF

Speaking if, I still want to answer this properly but I never get to it.

My main problem here is that we are too few in number as users compared to the number of topics. I'm personally already overwhelmed with the number of topics I'm involved in. If there were 10 or 100 times more people, the number of topics wouldn't increase accordingly. We have a set number of base problems, significantly growing the user base wouldn't grow the number of basic problems by that much.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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The more women I sleep with the more I realize just how fucked up sex is even though it feels great. I was going to post a thread about it and might do it soon but I think that there is somewhat of a thin line between really hot sex and the urge for extreme domination, might be because of my mindset. The times when I have really hit it off with a girl, I feel like I was almost being a scumbag to her and that got me going as well as her going. There is a reason they say "nice guys finish last" but I felt like the times when I really pulled a girl and just dominated her in bed, there was this sort of mindset of her being my bitch rather than her being a sweet love.

A month ago I hooked up with this aggressive dark haired girl with a tan, she was a mix of Latina and Eastern European so lots of aggressiveness and urge for violence built into her already. I got through her shit tests and kept trying her temper, yet at some point she hit me but it didn't do anything, then she laughed in a playful way and I playfully shoved her which she loved. I just imagined wrestling and fighting with her MMA style for the arousal it would give me, a couple weeks later we have some mindblowing sex. She went from hopeless damsel in distress to aggressively kissing me and resting by me after I had came.

After all this shit, I am realizing that this is not for the faint of heart or guys with strict morals, it just isn't.
 

Mr.Rob

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Space said:
To address your question, Rob, to be on the safe side I've always recommended to, besides strange PUA books which you can only buy from funny websites and they are only available in PDF format even in 2018 for some reason, throw in at least 50% of published books you can buy on Amazon or normal bookstores. Now many PUAs self-publish on Amazon, but I still find it a better option than selling obscured PDFs on your funky website. But definitely add some books published by traditional publishers on a slightly broader scale (outsize womanizing) and you probably turn out to be OK as far as I'm concerned.

Space, I'm not quite sure what consuming PUA books from different seller's or growing the user base of the forum has anything to do with the morality of seduction...

Oh Pry said:
After all this shit, I am realizing that this is not for the faint of heart or guys with strict morals, it just isn't.

Interesting anecdotes Oh Pry. I have to disagree with your here even though I personally resonate with your aggressive style of game. There are plenty of genuine good hearted, would never hurt a fly, morally up-righteous guys that learn to get women... Now with the level of extremeness you go to obviously that requires a darker soul but that's just a more extreme style of game.

BUT going back to the original point if those girls leave after you treat them "bad" and enjoyed the time/sex with you then is it amoral? Or is it perhaps more moral than treating her nice/sweet?

You can definitely make an argument either way...
 

Space

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Oh Pry said:
The more women I sleep with the more I realize just how fucked up sex is even though it feels great.
You may be interested in looking up Karezza. I've just came across this cool YouTube video of a relatively youngish (youngish for such an obscured or advanced topic) white Rasta talking about how he was converted, but I've lost the session, lost the video, the man, and the channel. If you happen to come across it, please let me know!
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I don't mean bad as in abuse them but bad as in dominate them to where they are cool with it, tough to explain tbh but I think you get where I am coming from Rob.
 

Space

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Mr.Rob said:
Space, I'm not quite sure what consuming PUA books from different seller's...
Mr.Rob, it has everything to do with the information you feed your brain with.

Mr.Rob said:
... or growing the user base of the forum has anything to do with the morality of seduction...
I've edited that part for clarity.
 

Mr.Rob

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Oh Pry said:
I don't mean bad as in abuse them but bad as in dominate them to where they are cool with it, tough to explain tbh but I think you get where I am coming from Rob.

Na I gotcha man, it definitely crosses into the grey zone that the stereotypical morally uprighteous guy is going to be mega uncomfortable with.

@Space- Just really curious what increasing the user base of the forums has to do with this topic lol
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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The truth here is you can't really negotiate attraction most of the times, it is either there or not. I think that while seduction helps, the base and the foundation has to be there for it to work. In my view, if it is legal by law then I don't see the evil in it but by nature.

As for whether or not it is moral.

The far right and the extremely religious will argue and say that things like sex before marriage are "immoral" because the Bible said so, I've had to deal with these people and there is no reasoning with them.

On the flip side I think that as society moves forward, seduction and things like sex before marriage become seen as more normal and less deviant behavior.
 

Mr.Rob

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Oh Pry said:
The far right and the extremely religious will argue and say that things like sex before marriage are "immoral" because the Bible said so, I've had to deal with these people and there is no reasoning with them.

On the flip side I think that as society moves forward, seduction and things like sex before marriage become seen as more normal and less deviant behavior.

Agreed. I personally believe its one of those things that fluctuates throughout history as Chase and Hector talk about the "pendulum" effect which is definitelty real when you look back at say ancient Rome and other societies that go through periods of moral lax and moral strictness. Though being in the globalised ultra modern science proofed world we live in that has never existed in history before you wonder if the same effect will happen at all... OR if it will be 10X the effect and a polarizing of social mores takes effect (either hardcore moral laxity or hardcore moral strictness [say perhaps if a huge war broke out and America had to rebuild from scratch])

Interesting to think about.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I kind of do see the pendulum swinging back a little bit to being morally strict thought Rob even though it is a lot more subtle as opposed to overtly strict. It used to be that in the 90s and early 00s, before the age of dating apps, things like #MeToo and the campus rape hysteria were hardly as much of a thing. Now you have this culture infiltrating and an all out war on masculinity going on. Then add to that the fact that PUA and "seduction" groups, outside of maybe the guys over at RSD, are no longer as prominent as they used to be.

While in the past you had religion and the government stepping in to get everyone to behave, we are now seeing the feminists and empowered women keeping most men in line to where you have to be careful where you stick your dick into. Even as aggressive as I get, I make sure that I am covered and not playing it too rough to where she is not okay with it because of today's atmosphere.

What I think will happen is that the attack on the hedonist player lifestyle won't come from the church and right wing as much as it will come from the radical left who will go after men for "objectifying women". I think it will be interesting to see how the pendulum swings but I believe studies indicated people are hooking up a lot less now than they used to decades ago so it may be swinging back in the most subtle of ways. Sex shaming and slut shaming are still very much a thing in modern day America which was built on a Puritan belief system.
 

Space

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Space said:
OFF

Speaking if, I still want to answer this properly but I never get to it.

My main problem here is that we are too few in number as users compared to the number of topics. I'm personally already overwhelmed with the number of topics I'm involved in. If there were 10 or 100 times more people, the number of topics wouldn't increase accordingly. We have a set number of base problems, significantly growing the user base wouldn't grow the number of basic problems by that much.

Mr.Rob said:
@Space- Just really curious what increasing the user base of the forums has to do with this topic lol
Mr.Rob, it's an OFF, but in the heat of discussion (this is the buzz topic now), I had to add that I simply can't allocate as much time to this forum to contribute to all the topics I got to be involved in, let alone I feel like I could add my perspective. And I have a sense that I'm not alone with this. If we were 10 or 100 times the users here, someone else could also write what you wanted to write, you only have to nod, and given modern forum software, like that users post.

Add a +1 to this if you also feel you can't allocate the time to contribute enough, but if the user base were one or two magnitudes larger, you probably wouldn't have to anyways as others can speak your mind as well.

I've also made the observation that on the forum that you don't necessarily open your topic in the section where it logically belongs to, but where you expect more people to read it. But how are we supposed to solve this?
 

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Oh Pry said:
I kind of do see the pendulum swinging back a little bit to being morally strict thought Rob even though it is a lot more subtle as opposed to overtly strict. It used to be that in the 90s and early 00s, before the age of dating apps, things like #MeToo and the campus rape hysteria were hardly as much of a thing. Now you have this culture infiltrating and an all out war on masculinity going on. Then add to that the fact that PUA and "seduction" groups, outside of maybe the guys over at RSD, are no longer as prominent as they used to be.
Oh Pry, to which country do you refer to? Don't forget that this community has members from almost 100 countries, we are a diverse group of people here.

Oh Pry said:
What I think will happen is that the attack on the hedonist player lifestyle won't come from the church and right wing as much as it will come from the radical left who will go after men for "objectifying women". I think it will be interesting to see how the pendulum swings but I believe studies indicated people are hooking up a lot less now than they used to decades ago so it may be swinging back in the most subtle of ways. Sex shaming and slut shaming are still very much a thing in modern day America which was built on a Puritan belief system.
Do you mean that with the breakdown of traditional marriage, 20% of the men get 80% of the sex?

Tony D said:
But yeah forums are not really a big thing for seduction anymore. Most guys I know went to facebook and Whattsapp groups. Or they hang out on different forums that talk more about culture war, travel...
Is this going to be another Roosh V Forum, by the way? Let's consider! Even if you personally don't venture out of your home country ever, for whatever reason, if students from all 100 countries Girls Chase reaches start to contribute, different perspectives will coincidentally follow. And we are going to be a little more like Roosh's forum as a consequence. Seems like a logical consequence.
 

Mr.Rob

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Space said:
Mr.Rob, it's an OFF, but in the heat of discussion (this is the buzz topic now), I had to add that I simply can't allocate as much time to this forum to contribute to all the topics I got to be involved in, let alone I feel like I could add my perspective. And I have a sense that I'm not alone with this. If we were 10 or 100 times the users here, someone else could also write what you wanted to write, you only have to nod, and given modern forum software, like that users post.

We get it if you don't have time to reply to every post... just don't reply in the first place, problem solved.
 

razir110

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I think seduction is wrong and we should all just wank off to death :0
 

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Mr.Rob said:
Space said:
Mr.Rob, it's an OFF, but in the heat of discussion (this is the buzz topic now), I had to add that I simply can't allocate as much time to this forum to contribute to all the topics I got to be involved in, let alone I feel like I could add my perspective. And I have a sense that I'm not alone with this. If we were 10 or 100 times the users here, someone else could also write what you wanted to write, you only have to nod, and given modern forum software, like that users post.

We get it if you don't have time to reply to every post... just don't reply in the first place, problem solved.

lmfao
 
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