Should I read "The Game" or "Models"

[Brassfaced_Jim]

There are really a lot of good guys who aren't known and don't have infields - especially naturals.

Comparison with sport is horribly flawed, because seduction is problematic for reputation, while sport isn't. Many guys don't want to be publically known as seducers because they don't want to be seen negatively by women, family members, coworkers...

And competition in the seduction coaching business isn't won by actual seduction skill level, but by marketing and skill at manipulating other men. Best example of this: Tyler.



Yes.



Sure, women can be manipulated to some extent. But I don't think what the PUA community teaches is an effective way to do that.



I never became "leader of men", despite doing some heavy stuff with women.

Yeah you may be classed as a Dominant Sigma Male (?or some such IDK completely tbh ). But you are *high status and *dominant in bed. That’s enough.

A guy having lesser dimensions or not all the dimensions of pure /perfect Alpha exist. It’s like a spectrum imo. But women pick it up.

you talk about state transfer . Energy etc
Women also drop words like Energy/Vibe/Aura/ Edge to describe this thing, and it’s annoyingly vague to pin down no?

To me, it could be broken down into signals. Comms. Body language stuff .. it’ll transfer in eye contact (big one) tone of voice, word choices, facial expressions, even micro expressions, posture , body language, all of that translates into => ‘Energy/Vibe/Aura/Edge.’

And agree w you very hard to ‘fake ‘
As it’s a projection of intentions, conviction, confidence. Etc etc
It’s a lot of cues that .all align to combine to a big Signal.

So guys have to learn how to project it out,
And probably therapy in cases to get comfortable expressing it and signalling it over . From my own progress and learning .. it was a hump to get over to get into that zone.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Sure, women can be manipulated to some extent. But I don't think what the PUA community teaches is an effective way to do that.

I’d be interested to hear more about the more effective ways
Yeah it’s not the complete picture for sure, and tbh hard to learn from books or videos of some talking head. I like analysing interactions for body language and also communication -Frames and Frame control is very interesting and useful to me .

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

Yeah you may be classed as a Dominant Sigma Male (?or some such IDK completely tbh ).

I was trying to point out how lumping different traits together, like being attractive to women and being "leader of men", into concepts like "alpha male" is a bad idea.

I think it's about (sets of) singular traits, evoking singular impressions/emotions in women.

Like in me either looks or state projection or behavior, I have:

Trait X1 -> Girl impression/emotion Y1
Trait X2 -> Gilrl impression/emotion Y2
Trait X3 - > Girl impression/emotion Y3
(...) And so on and so on.

I think lumping this into umbrella terms like "alpha male" only causes confusion and misunderstandings.

I project intense sexual vibes + BDSM/psychopatic vibes + aristocratic/high status + many girls told me I'm "sweet".

I know a guy who got laid a lot, but he had none of my above qualities. He had a "alternative" style, partied a lot, but not in the "high energy" sense, but in sense of home parties with young people drinking and smoking weed. Kind of a "alternative style, weed guy". His emotional style was kind of seeking escape from the world, seeking freedom from "opressive, stiff society", etc etc. And in his way, he was a leader of men within that circle and a sort of "high status" among the people he partied with.

Me and him are so different...does it make sense to lump us two under the same "alpha male" concept?

you talk about state transfer . Energy etc
Women also drop words like Energy/Vibe/Aura/ Edge to describe this thing, and it’s annoyingly vague to pin down no?

Like I wrote ealier, my girlfriend said that I'm "like a snake with razor sharp fangs, dripping with poison". Deciphering what it actually means could be "a bit" difficult for most people.

And if somebody would try to copy it...I think most likely outcome would be "disastrous failure".

And agree w you very hard to ‘fake ‘
As it’s a projection of intentions, conviction, confidence. Etc etc
It’s a lot of cues that .all align to combine to a big Signal.

Yes. And I've noticed that very often people THINK were displaying positive quality A, when in fact they're failing and are really displaying negative quality B. They don't notice they're failing at faking.

I’d be interested to hear more about the more effective ways

One simple thing would be to dress in a way suggesting you're rich.

Also, verbal lying can work well.

Girl: So what do you do for a living?
Guy: Oh I own a hotel and a spa.

Also:

Girl: I'm a model.
Guy: Nice. My brother has a modelling agency and I've hang around a lot with these girls.
Girl: So you have a hotel and a spa, and your brother has a modelling agency?
Guy: Yeah, we're a rich family, our father made tons of money on real estate trading.

This also communicates:

1. Being around models is normal.
2. "Hanging around a lot" can cause her to wonder is you dated/slept around with them.
3. You have contacts in modelling industry she might take advantage of.

If successful, in few minutes you can go from "some guy" to "rich guy with contacts in modelling industry".

Some guys create instagram profiles for this purpose or just show girls photos on their phones. Like photos with (rented) luxury cars and so on.

This works. And I find it insane how the PUA community largely ignores such traditional methods, instead creating supposedly "advanced" and "revolutionary" methods in reality don't work too well. (Traditional in in terms of instagram photos, but in terms of just plain old lying.)

The "rich beta" type guy with hot girlfriend didn't get her by doing Negs, Cocky & Funny, etc. Most likely he was simply dressed rich and confirmed it in the conversation. And yes, very likely they've met through friends or something, but similar effect can be achieved in cold approaches.

If somebody doesn't like to lie, he can just dress rich and make girls make assumptions on their own.

 

[D. Gately]

Well D .. in @famineofcrows defence , infield videos are being presented as filmed reality. lol.

[/QUOTE]
Well, he just said he didn't believe them. I wouldn't either. It's pure marketing.

i beleive what you say from ur postings.. but also on the other side. There is no proof of what you are saying. How’s he supposed to beleive ?

It's showing up 2 weeks ago and lecturing everyone on how seduction works is the problem. As I said, he's welcome to his self-limiting beliefs. Whatever works for you.

And it's not strictly anonymous here, it's pseudonymous. I have the same handle I had at RVF over 10 years ago. Chase is real, you can meet him. You can easily meet other coaches and see them pickup/seduce IRL.

We don't post photos here and even if we did the newbie 'experts' would just say I don't believe them either, or that's not you, or she's a paid date, or whatever their excuse of the day is. So it's unprovable on a forum basis, yep.

But what has already been proven beyond a doubt is the ability to seduce a woman who is initially cold to you in the first 10 seconds of a meet, even possibly rude. She doesn't have to like you to bang you.
If you have the skills, which several forum members have demonstrated over the years and decades. I'm not going to argue it further.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I was trying to point out how lumping different traits together, like being attractive to women and being "leader of men", into concepts like "alpha male" is a bad idea.

I think it's about (sets of) singular traits, evoking singular impressions/emotions in women.

Like in me either looks or state projection or behavior, I have:

Trait X1 -> Girl impression/emotion Y1
Trait X2 -> Gilrl impression/emotion Y2
Trait X3 - > Girl impression/emotion Y3
(...) And so on and so on.

I think lumping this into umbrella terms like "alpha male" only causes confusion and misunderstandings.

I project intense sexual vibes + BDSM/psychopatic vibes + aristocratic/high status + many girls told me I'm "sweet".


I know a guy who got laid a lot, but he had none of my above qualities. He had a "alternative" style, partied a lot, but not in the "high energy" sense, but in sense of home parties with young people drinking and smoking weed. Kind of a "alternative style, weed guy". His emotional style was kind of seeking escape from the world, seeking freedom from "opressive, stiff society", etc etc. And in his way, he was a leader of men within that circle and a sort of "high status" among the people he partied with.

Me and him are so different...does it make sense to lump us two under the same "alpha male" concept?

Well it depends here re your friend.
I did somewhere a long the line say about relative High status tying in to being a Dominant male . about guys like a drug dealer in a club having high status. Alpha & Status kinda go together , or are equivalent for women. If he has the weed or deals it he’s got high status. If he also organises the house parties and gets people to come he is also Alpha ie he leads the group to his house, he is the centre of the group. He’s the dominant guy. A dominant male is about relative social status to other guys or other people the way I mean it.

I prefer the term Dominant as the category term. dominant males covers Alpha leader types, but also High status types . Both are socially dominant and have power.

So in that sense it’s about Power and influence. Whoever has it will be the most attractive guys to women. As for women that means resources and traits coming their way if they get with the guy and have kids with him basically.

that’s what females look for or “feel” for in selection.

“can this guy lead or influence other guys , does he have status among other men”?

That kind of vibe.

So if a guy is by himself in a bar and approaches a woman one on one , every woman will gauge that or feel that out early on in the interaction. And place him on the social totem pole in her mind. Which factors info her Y/N for selection.

Like I wrote ealier, my girlfriend said that I'm "like a snake with razor sharp fangs, dripping with poison". Deciphering what it actually means could be "a bit" difficult for most people.

And if somebody would try to copy it...I think most likely outcome would be "disastrous failure".



Yes. And I've noticed that very often people THINK were displaying positive quality A, when in fact they're failing and are really displaying negative quality B. They don't notice they're failing at faking.

One simple thing would be to dress in a way suggesting you're rich.

Also, verbal lying can work well.

Girl: So what do you do for a living?
Guy: Oh I own a hotel and a spa.

Also:

Girl: I'm a model.
Guy: Nice. My brother has a modelling agency and I've hang around a lot with these girls.
Girl: So you have a hotel and a spa, and your brother has a modelling agency?
Guy: Yeah, we're a rich family, our father made tons of money on real estate trading.

This also communicates:

1. Being around models is normal.
2. "Hanging around a lot" can cause her to wonder is you dated/slept around with them.
3. You have contacts in modelling industry she might take advantage of.

If successful, in few minutes you can go from "some guy" to "rich guy with contacts in modelling industry".

Some guys create instagram profiles for this purpose or just show girls photos on their phones. Like photos with (rented) luxury cars and so on.

This works. And I find it insane how the PUA community largely ignores such traditional methods, instead creating supposedly "advanced" and "revolutionary" methods in reality don't work too well. (Traditional in in terms of instagram photos, but in terms of just plain old lying.)

The "rich beta" type guy with hot girlfriend didn't get her by doing Negs, Cocky & Funny, etc. Most likely he was simply dressed rich and confirmed it in the conversation. And yes, very likely they've met through friends or something, but similar effect can be achieved in cold approaches.

If somebody doesn't like to lie, he can just dress rich and make girls make assumptions on their own.

All good ideas , would agree on this

 

[ChrisXKiss]

By the way, to be totally clear and because I wouldn’t like my previous post to be misinterpreted, what I’ve been basically trying to say it that these kind of girls:

Every intermediate-level seducer has pulled an amber or red-light girl who punched him in the arm and called him an 'asshole,' while laughing, during a seduction.

are totally possible to get, and I would even say in a way already into you or at least intrigued by you.

These are in fact the girls I get more angry with myself when I don’t get, because I know it could be possible and I just have to step up my game.

It is these girls though:

I mean if she has 0.0% interest, then that's fine, nobody is saying you can get every girl you meet, she has a bf she loves deeply, you're not 7' tall

that I really don’t see an effective way to get unless you are forced to spend quite some time together to slowly and indirectly change their impression of you.

If not, they can just ignore you and not even stay to listen or respond to your game.

I am interested in the next entries from Chase’s new series of getting uninterested girls though, especially about when you are one on one, because there could be something I’ve probably haven’t thought of and would be interesting to learn.

And I will close this topic with the most random personal example that shows in fact that even a totally uninterested girl is possible to be taken out in a date under the right circumstances.

I had a street stop once to a hot tall blonde Eastern European girl with duck lips and a total bimbo vibe, giving her a direct compliment and she immediately ignored it and kept walking.

The interaction was more dead than the dead sea. Then as she was leaving, I decided while keeping my ground and not leaving to ask her for her name, she told me, and then I shared mine.

She instantly flipped, asked me if I am really called like that, she couldn’t believe it, came closer to me all interested and after a 2 minute chat I proposed a drink one of these 2 days I was in the city.

She gave me her number, told me her real name, as she explained that she wouldn’t share her real one with people she doesn’t know, and we eventually went for a date next evening.

Nothing sexual came out of it eventually, we can argue how much of it was my incompetence and how much her not doing one night stands ( these kind of Eastern European women are by the far the most difficult I’ve seen when it comes to any form of quick escalation when there is no future possibility ), but the point I want to make is that she was totally uninterested in the cold approach, and 3 minutes later she was down to plan a date she came to very happily.

So anything is possible really, this girl thought I was nothing till she heard my name. Another girl may think you are nothing till she hears you sing on stage, or hanging out with a hottie all over you.

It’s just difficult to orchestrate all this in a random cold approach with very limited knowledge of the girl and no direct possibility to show traits she would value apart from your initial

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Well, he just said he didn't believe them. I wouldn't either. It's pure marketing.



It's showing up 2 weeks ago and lecturing everyone on how seduction works is the problem. As I said, he's welcome to his self-limiting beliefs. Whatever works for you.

And it's not strictly anonymous here, it's pseudonymous. I have the same handle I had at RVF over 10 years ago. Chase is real, you can meet him. You can easily meet other coaches and see them pickup/seduce IRL.

We don't post photos here and even if we did the newbie 'experts' would just say I don't believe them either, or that's not you, or she's a paid date, or whatever their excuse of the day is. So it's unprovable on a forum basis, yep.

But what has already been proven beyond a doubt is the ability to seduce a woman who is initially cold to you in the first 10 seconds of a meet, even possibly rude. She doesn't have to like you to bang you.

If you have the skills, which several forum members have demonstrated over the years and decades. I'm not going to argue it further.
[/QUOTE]

Definitely don’t wanna argue with you D.
Buttttt… I do feel the need to point out two sentences in your reply and quiz you further.

ie - if it’s un-proveable on a forum basis as you agree with me, then where exactly has it ‘been proven beyond a doubt’ for others who haven’t observed it, to see?

I mean, I’ve seen guy friends do it, I’ve done it , you’ve done it obviously. I wouldn’t say that’s proof for everyone (especially newbies) beyond all reasonable doubt. Yknow? Cos it they just read stuff in books and forums. So that’s a catch 22 circular type situation.



but aside from that and moving on some more questions . Your statement ‘she doesn’t have to like you to bang you’ could be extended further with examples for all the guys . This is important to know and decipher how this is.

also - are any of the coaches or experienced guys based down under in Aus? Cos I’d love to meet them and get coaching. Thanks. james

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

By the way, to be totally clear and because I wouldn’t like my previous post to be misinterpreted, what I’ve been basically trying to say it that these kind of girls: (Amber and Red Light Girls as described by D)

are totally possible to get, and I would even say in a way already into you or at least intrigued by you.

These are in fact the girls I get more angry with myself when I don’t get, because I know it could be possible and I just have to step up my game.

My head hurts Chris.
An Amber Light girl tpresents as a ‘maybe’
A Red Light girl =presents as a NO. (Attitude/Brush off/Fuck Off)

how can you say a Red Light girl is ,in a way, already into you or intrigued by you?

then she’d be an Amber Light Girl facepalm
Sheesh!

Whether she’s Amber or Red , Maybe or No.
The question is - is she worth the effort to you or not? To me it’s - does she have something I really really like looks wise.

for example a big beautiful rack of tits.
Or an ass that could crack a walnut.
Or whatever your preference.

It’s up to the individual guy to decide if it’s worth the effort involved.

 

[Chase]

WRT "alpha males", yes, getting good with girls doesn't necessarily transform you into a leader of men.

The red pill gets mixed up by conflating the concepts of a group alpha (leader of a group of people), in which case being a beta is actually good... it means being the #2 coolest, most dominant guy in the group... vs. the alpha-beta dichotomy in a monogamous relationship, in which case being a beta is bad if you are the man... it means being the one-down to your more dominant GF/wife.

Red pill guys constantly dick-measure to prove who is "more alpha" (really meaning "who is less submissive to women"), but then expand this concept to also meaning they would of course be the leader of a group. Which is not necessarily the case.

(The easiest way to show this is with this riddle: "A group of alpha males show up to an alpha male convention. Who is the alpha male of the alpha males?")

---

WRT "how do I know any of what anybody is saying is true?", I refer any with doubts to this post:

How Do I Know Members on the Forum Aren't Making Everything Up?

This is a question we see from time-to-time from new members. Sometimes it is asked earnestly. Sometimes it comes out as cognitive dissonance, where a new member argues members who have greater seniority than he has are lying, exaggerating, or charlatans. The new member may be: Genuinely...

www.skilledseducer.com

Cheers,
Chase

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

WRT "alpha males", yes, getting good with girls doesn't necessarily transform you into a leader of men.

The red pill gets mixed up by conflating the concepts of a group alpha (leader of a group of people), in which case being a beta is actually good... it means being the #2 coolest, most dominant guy in the group... vs. the alpha-beta dichotomy in a monogamous relationship, in which case being a beta is bad if you are the man... it means being the one-down to your more dominant GF/wife.

Red pill guys constantly dick-measure to prove who is "more alpha" (really meaning "who is less submissive to women"), but then expand this concept to also meaning they would of course be the leader of a group. Which is not necessarily the case.

(The easiest way to show this is with this riddle: "A group of alpha males show up to an alpha male convention. Who is the alpha male of the alpha males?")

---

WRT "how do I know any of what anybody is saying is true?", I refer any with doubts to this post:

How Do I Know Members on the Forum Aren't Making Everything Up?

This is a question we see from time-to-time from new members. Sometimes it is asked earnestly. Sometimes it comes out as cognitive dissonance, where a new member argues members who have greater seniority than he has are lying, exaggerating, or charlatans. The new member may be: Genuinely...

www.skilledseducer.com

Cheers,
Chase

Hey Chase
Thanks for the explanation,
Re the riddle - I’ve mused one that one for a while actually. I put it into google search recently , think my prompt was -‘ when 2 alpha males are in a room who becomes the alpha?’ AI summary gave a great answer with many factors and dimensions to how it might play out. Very interesting.

btw. What’s your opinion on the term ‘Dominant Male’ to try tie together all the types of guys that are generally a preference for women… especially in bars and clubs that is. Do you find that’s a key thing to work in to a pickup to increase results in those environments …? Definitely seems to be ime , for quick pulls and rapid seductions.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

And also @Chase is there any experienced guys on the forum based down under in Aus? Much appreciated James

 

[ChrisXKiss]

My head hurts Chris.

Hope it gets better.

how can you say a Red Light girl is ,in a way, already into you or intrigued by you?

I was referring to the behaviour. If a girl is laughing with you and teasingly punches your arm calling you an asshole, she is not fully uninterested at that point.

then she’d be an Amber Light Girl

and I agree that she would be an Amber one.

I even explained what I consider “red”, so I don’t understand the confusion.

I agree with this though:

Whether she’s Amber or Red , Maybe or No.
The question is - is she worth the effort to you or not? To me it’s - does she have something I really really like looks wise.

for example a big beautiful rack of tits.
Or an ass that could crack a walnut.
Or whatever your preference.

It’s up to the individual guy to decide if it’s worth the effort involved.

I mean if a simply cute girl seems totally uninterested to you I would say why waste time, but if you really feel viscerally attracted to her, I would say it is your duty to show her how well made for each other you are.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I’m still unpacking this post, didn’t have time first go round. Great

I think that it's COMPLICATED and that it's a bad idea to make general statements like that. I think it depends on the woman and on the specific form of "Masculine Dominance" the man is doing.

I've seen a lot of guys hear stuff like "women like dominant men", "women are attracted to alpha males", etc...then try to implement their understanding of the concept and...FAIL HARD.

A lot of guys were HARMED by things told in the PUA community about being "dominant", "alpha male", high value man", etc. Instead of becoming atractive dominant men, they became unattractive douchebags - irritating and repulsive. Essentially "socially-damaged" people incapable of normal interacting.

I've seen HUGE number of PUA community guys RUIN THEIR INTERACTIONS, over and over again, by trying to "be alpha", "be dominant", "show higher value", etc. In reality, they were rude and mean to girls and they were presenting themselves as douchebags who are mean for no reason - they were presenting themselves as toxic, unpleasant people nobody wants around.

I've seen good looking PUAs sabotage many interactions in which the women were visibly attracted and success would be extremely likely - if they would talk to these girls in a nice manner, instead of being rude and mean.

I mean using things like Negs, unfriendly form of Cocky & Funny, but also something harder to spot - lack of being nice, lack of building warmth, rapport, connection when it should be done. And general vibe of being artificial, cold, emotionally closed, douchebag, etc.

THIS PROBLEM HAPPENED TO ME TOO.

When I first came to PUA community, I was clueless and I believed everything the community was saying. I believed in PUA nonsense and tried to implement it... I got poor results - but I attributed them to my own incompetence and insufficient amount of practice/experience. So I practiced and practiced... And actually the results became the worse the more closely I followed what PUA community was advocating. And the best actions I had happened when I was following my intuition.

I was brainwashed by the PUA community and I still believed what PUA community teaches works - despite bigger and bigger evidence to the contrary. But later I've met some people who helped me get out of the brainwashing and look at this objectively.

When I looked objectively, I've noticed that the PUA community vision of "being dominant", "being alpha male", "being high value", etc etc:

1. Does NOT work for me.
2. Does NOT work for anybody I know.

All the PUA people I knew, me included, were generally getting BAD RESULTS from it.

And I'm a good looking, naturally dominant guy. If PUA community methods of being a "dominant man", "alpha male", etc don't work work me, then for whom do they work?

Well tbh, it sounds like you didn’t need need that dimension of it to begin with. The ‘dominant man/alpha male thing.(?) it just was not a good fit for you.

whereas with me , not being much dominant at all earlier years, it helped a fair bit that stuff, And still working on it.
Tbh I have let keys ideas of High Status fall by the wayside a bit along this path, so this discussion and your posts are a good course correction for me

that’s a big of the problem with PuA material. There’s so much of it (endless really) and so varied. ‘One size fits all / all women are the same do xyz. ‘
And a guy doesn’t know what he needs to work on to begin with, most take the DIY/ self help approach. And apply wrong things they don’t need.

Guys really need a 3rd person evaluation at the start to identify their areas to improve . Unfortunately there are very few legit and honest coaches to do so.

personally I’ve looked at /reviewed so many courses and material over the years myself it’s rediculous.
Like, stupid , brain melting amounts of contrary/conflicfing info of Various perspectives of what works.(!) and deep dives into so many areas related to pickup too and so many ‘Gurus’ …really bad idea , would not advise anyone to do that! Talk about information overload. Messed me up for a while, until I figured which was fraud and which better material and could categorise it all

I have GREAT results from my sexual vibe, from my "BDSM vibe", from being intense, predatory, kind of dark and aristocratic, etc etc... And sure it is some form of "Masculine Dominance". But it's something DIFFERENT than what many other people mean by "being dominant", "being alpha male", "being a high value men", etc etc.

And I'm against lumping DIFFERENT things under one big term.

What really works for me is sexual/dominant STATE PROJECTION (and looks of course). I'm not higly dominant or higly sexual verbally or physically (up to a certain point). I act nice, I'm well mannered.

Many PUAs are energetically ASEXUAL and they're trying to establish dominance by verbal techniques and physicall behaviors.

I'm against explaining what I do by "Masculine Dominance", because I think using such a term "pushes out" the exact image of what I'm doing (and what I'm not doing).



I reject categorising it using a wide category. Because if you put it under a wide category, then you're really mixing different things together. And people can interpret wide categories like "being a dominant men" in different ways, including some very misguided and harmful interpretations.

My vibe is highly sexual in the "I want to cum into that ass" sense, combined with BDSM domination urges, kind of sophisticated or aristocratic... It's vastly different from the ASEXUAL, low-class, artficial, rude, "self-important douchebag" kind of thing a lot of PUA community people do - which in their opinion is "being dominant" and "being alpha male".

Yep fair enough. Good point.

BTW Watch the old guy character in this video (I look a lot younger than him.) Make sure to also watch the last part, when old and young guy meet and drink together:

The guy looks high status and he also looks like a dominant, confident person, a little bit of a "tough guy", etc - but he's not being a dick to people. He's also not some kind of "oh let's party" character smiling all the time and waving his hands.

I'm kind of like a sexually charged, BDSM oriented version, yet also bit softer (?) version of that character. Kind of like the same guy would come to the club with a intention to fuck a girl hard, order her to "kneel before her owner", etc. While still keeping his behavior classy, well within social norms. And with a younger, softer and yet wider-jawed face.


I would say "better", not "higher" - as not to avoid implying it's the same as being higher on physicaly attractiveness scale. Since it's not the same effect.

BTW Other people of any given physical rating also have different kinds of traits expressed by their faces. Positive and negative.

I like this video. Very high status guy for sure. Looks to be a big business owner or the club owner or some such. Who is the actor btw is he famous in Poland or something? An ad for Johnny Walker whiskey I’m presuming

Yes.

I'm not a hacker who hacked the system. I have high value within the system.

BTW Look at Mystery... 6'5 guy, kind of good looking... Often dressed like he could be a musician. So also high value within the system, NOT some kind of "hacker" who breaks the social-sexual "laws of physics".

Mystery often looks like a very tall, kind of good looking musician - like for example here: https://en-academic.com/pictures/enwiki/77/Mysteryerik.jpg

If I saw a guy dressed like that, I wouldn't think "illusionist". I would think the guy most likely plays in some kind of pop or rock band.

Look here: https://media.glamour.com/photos/56967ece93ef4b0952112daf/master/w_1600,c_limit/sex-love-life-blogs-smitten-0129-rosemary-mystery_sm.jpg

And here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DwLas2zXcAAFgEP.jpg

Especially on the last one, he looks like somebody RICH.

Does Mystery look average? NO. Taking everything in account, he's clearly in "high value" category just by the way he looks.

And PUA community was always brainwashing, conditioning people to not notice such things and instead attribute everything to verbal techniques (or inner game).

Well. This is why I prefer his book and still rate it - he did a good job of explaining /breaking down his ideas and focus on high status /DHVing. and other ideas he had , how it mapped it all out in details and for learning.

I’d never come across that in a book before tbh. And it explained so much to me re other guys that got women. And alpha guys that I’d known up until then. I started seeing what they were doing, through Mystery’s explanations and jargon.

You have to remember this was back in the day, 2005/07 .. before everyone and their dog ripped off his ideas , titled themselves a MasterPUA and started a copycat business ,cleaning up $$$.

Is it perfect and totally correct? No. If a perfect comprehensive book existed that’d be GOLDEN for sure. Woulda saved me reading 1,000 other books on pickup. lol.

but it hits on a lot of things well, and in mechanical detail.

For example his breakdown structure of Teasing- of ‘Bait-hook-reel- release’ for someone like me, who didn’t get teasing was pretty great and better, learnable.

I ought to go back and study that again actually tbh. Nice little formula

Coming back to me and the "high status guy, pulling high status girls"....

I have an EXTREMELY attractive girlfriend - the hottest woman I've seen in my entire life. People stare wide-eyed when they see her. She makes different kinds of high value men "feel weak" in her presence. Very hot women get their ego reduced when they see her.

She had some extremely good looking partners in the past - and I feel totally outclassed by them. I can't understand why she prefers me. In theory I know why - because she has told me - but I find it hard to understand. I would never take a physical 7/10 over a 9-10/10. But my girlfriend says I have an obsession about looks and that for her it's ridiculous and "blasphemous" to even compare her former 9-10/10 partners with me.

She says she FEELS there is something incredibly masculine, incredibly sexy inside me. Something attractive and sexy to the point of being overhelming and ENSLAVING her. She says it's literally taking away her free will - but she's LOVING EVERY BIT OF IT.

She says she feels I'm internally "like a predatory animal', "so super intense", also "like a snake with razor sharp fangs, dripping with poison". Etc etc. But also "sweet". And also "divine". She deeply dislikes the idea that I'm a ordinary humant being - she prefers to think of me as a God in human form.

BTW Such extreme vibes are largely unknown in the PUA community (because it's full of losers), but aren't uncommon in the BDSM community - where there are far more men with "extreme" personality and sexuality.

My girlfriend says sex with me is the ultimate, divine, metaphysical pleasure...and the main goal of her life. She literally says that she feels the point of her whole existence is to have sex with me.

She says she loves me and that's certainly true, but it's not "love" as is normally understood. It's rather a mix of sexual obsession and fanatical devotion. And normal love as a....consequence?

I love her, but less than she loves me. My love for her is big, but more "normal", not like obsessive, fanatical devotion.

She says she deeply appreciates the fact I love her and it makes her very happy, but...if I didn't, it wouldn't change her attitude towards me.

She says she that if she had to, she would gladly pay me for sex. And she would still be extremely happy and feel extremely honored.

She says she needs me way more than I need her and that I'm doing her a huge (divine!) favor by being with her.

She says it's because I could be happy with any decent girl, but she could be happy only with me.

So:

1. I get a extremely hot, extremely devoted girl. (+ other benefits)

2. She get's her "God" she's living for.

We both feel we got an exceptional deal, a partner of amazing quality.

A lot of girls are attracted to me, while in her case literally every man drools at her. There is asymmetry, but clearly we are both "high value" people.

I didn't lie to her, I didn't manipulate her, I didn't somehow bamboozle her into something she doesn't want. I presented a "product", she was interested and now she thinks she has "bought" the most amazing product ever.

She's an extreme case, but not really a isolated one - my other women also regard me as a "luxurious product".

My girfriend jokes that I would make an amazing male prostitute and that it's crazy I don't charge women money.

really want pictures of these polish chicks polish females are HAWT. Lots of polish came into UK decades ago .. scorching hot women to our eyes back then.

btw some guys used to tell me Talinn Estonia has the hottest women in the world , what’s your opinion on that?

But if I'm so amazing, how come I ever had problems with women, how come I ever went to the PUA community?

I was severely fucked up emotionally. My father was toxic, abusive... Plus there were some other toxic influences, plus conservative upbringing...

In highschool, I was fat and asocial... and yet multiple girls, including the one considered the hottest in my entire highschool (7-8/10), were giving me strong IOIs... But I was too shy to make use of it. I could see women are attracted to me, but I've felt no emotional, social possibility of making use of it. (Which was of course completely wrong, but I was emotionally fucked up.)

Later, during early college years, I saw a girl I thought was stunning at a business party.... Now I think she was only 8/10, but then I thought she was amazing... I knew that if I don't do anything, I will never meet her again... She noticed and was interested too, sat away from her friends... And I have succesfully taken her number! Unfortunately, on the dates I've fucked it up due to being a totally inexperienced, low-self esteem guy.... Fell in love, suffered a lot, had suicidal thoughts...

But despite the failure...a 8/10 was initially interested in me and made an effort to make me approach her....that's one more sign of me being way above average.

Then I've entered PUA community... If I'm attractive, why didn't I get great successes?

Well... I still had my "curse" of being emotionally fucked up and unable to take advantage of opportunities.

Also, the PUA community methods were wrong and made things worse, not better.

I was later "cured" by growing experiences with women and by positive influence of some naturals I've met.

I guess the moral of this story is that even a person with high innate potential can be fucked up by negative influences.

BTW I find my story both strange and sad - every after all these years. I could have easily had a 7-8/10 girlfriend in my highschool and a 8/10 in early college and don't suffer all that pain - when I was a sensitive young person.

Very interesting this backstory..
You’re very much an unusual ‘Outlier’ type of guy imo.
Reminds me of another quick seducer / physical seducer guy ‘Aaron Sleazy’.. similarish story..

There were different guys - many average guys, some obvious "Betas" and some good looking guys.

And I think they should have been told THE TRUTH - not fairy tales about how supposedly anyone ca get the hottest women using Negs.



Yes. Ok, maybe in some cases a routine/story might work if it somehow credibly hit some kind of value important for the girl, but that's a rather theoretical possibility.

Also: in my opinion a lot of methods used in the community can ruin attraction by making the guy look like a douchebag. And even if the girl liked the guy before, now she doesnt want him in her life - because there are other handsome guys who don't seem to be douchebags.



As far as I know, despite all his faults, Mystery is kind of competent.

However that doesn't mean you should treat what he's saying seriously.

BTW From what I have seen, the best guys are naturals, not PUAs.



I think indirect is safer in many cases, but the whole debate is kind of pointless.



This isn't contradictory.

I don't (usually) verbalise my perverse inner dialog. It works through STATE PROJECTION.

State projection get's process by the woman's intuition, while Negs get's process by her verbal/social intelligence... Two very different channels.




I sometimes consume the blood of women. Did you read about it somewhere in my posts, or was it a accidental "hit"?

BTW The blood consumption I do is a iny bit of blood from the finger, not any kind of movie-like vampirism stuff and goblets full of blood. I also did larger blood-plays, but with animal blood. I have no idea why, but I like blood poured, smeared over me or the women.

And I also enjoy the sight of women eating raw meat. (Like here, but I like it more bloody and primal, less smilely:

)





BTW I like to piss on woman's faces or inside their mouths (and they have to drink the urine). And I expect the women to treat it as a great honor.

I don't have an emotional problem with being rude to women... I simply think it's not a good idea in practical terms.

Well I haven’t got to pissing in chicks faces and mouths yet. Looks like I defs need to up my sex Game! lol.

I did go to a sex club last year tho for the first time.
Blew my mind the stuff I saw going on there in front of my eyes. I could hardly beleive it was happening. I was in shock for quite a while afterwards. Still seems like Dream.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Hope it gets better.

I was referring to the behaviour. If a girl is laughing with you and teasingly punches your arm calling you an asshole, she is not fully uninterested at that point.

and I agree that she would be an Amber one.

I even explained what I consider “red”, so I don’t understand the confusion.

I agree with this though:

I mean if a simply cute girl seems totally uninterested to you I would say why waste time, but if you really feel viscerally attracted to her, I would say it is your duty to show her how well made for each other you are.

lol. Ok looks like I misunderstood yep.

yeah why waste time is one perspective.
‘just Go look for other girls. And green lights etc ‘
To me it’s a case of . In bars and clubs, there is constraints on the supply/numbers of girls.
and also I’ve known a natural player friend , whose signature was his persistence. He would sometimes still be tuning the chick ourside as we were all leaving the club and heading home.
Us - “come on dude we’re going’
Him- ah no lads, she’s a LOVELY girl, don’t say that about her! You’re a lovely girl x , don’t listen to them.. so anyway let me tell you what else I like about you blah blah”
like, he’d tune them and flatter them to the end of the earth ..and finally they’d yield most of . lol.

He was well known for it. Very decent chicks too. I wouldn’t say b1tchy types per se, although some were…moreso good girls resisting a ONS. Girls living in houseshares etc . Back in our mid 20s.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

@ChrisXKiss
Another story semi related of my own.
I recall one night at a bar/club, I must have approached 15 sets of chicks, no joy, finally I got to the last pair and about to quit ..
the convo went like this;
Me - “hey, (opener)”
Her - “so .. your place or mine”
Me - “that’s a bit presumptuous ! lol”
Her - “well, I’ve been watching you approach women all night , I figured you were a SURE THING. lol”

And off we went immediately in a taxi ,to her parents flash Mansion in a wealthy burb.

in fairness , she was not the best looking, but a funny ‘success’ story.

 

[HeartOfChaos]

and due to my experience, this is always obvious within maybe 3 seconds)

With daygame it's exactly this majority of the time. Anyone who says different is simply deluded, or is bad at reading signals. There should always be instinctive base level of physical attraction between 2 people upon a random cold approach for it to go anywhere.

 

[HeartOfChaos]

yeah, i'm aware of scotty (there's no PUA i'm not aware of lol)
Scotty is good at closing the girls who already want him. Same as me, tbh. And every other top guy that i've ever seen. (but its also obvious when a girl isn't into him) Scotty is very direct. More than me.

I did similar approaches so many times in London. Some very direct like him, some much less so, various. In my case, most of them still flake or don't reply to my follow up messages.

But the difference is in USA people are much more open and receptive. It's not common here in UK for it to be like this, and I feel most of the posters here don't understand the difficulty you'd experience in London upon similar approaches.

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

Well tbh, it sounds like you didn’t need need that dimension of it to begin with. The ‘dominant man/alpha male thing.(?) it just was not a good fit for you.

From what I have seen, the PUA community version of the dominant/alpha male thing is not a good fit for anybody. I have seen different PUAs, with different personalities and looks, SABOTAGE their success with it.

The problem is that it doesn't make them "sexy dominant men". It makes them repulsive douchebags or weirdos. And it destroys the "soft", the "sweet" part of possible male-female interaction. It's NOT good for "hard" sexuality either!!! Because it moves the focus of interaction to some weird ego-battles, social frames, instead of actual sexuality.

The scale of these negative effects varies depending on the person and particular moment/period, but I can't think of a single PUA I know personally who wasn't harmed by it.

I've also noticed PUAs are brainwashed, delusional about this. They believe in this stuff - they've invested their emotions, hopes into this. They want to believe their "special knowledge" is correct. So when PUA beliefs and reality collide, they often...reject reality.

I too had this in the past - when PUA methods weren't giving me good results, I was blaming my execution of them and thought that "great gurus" of the community "cant be wrong". The problem was I became a believer first, by reading and already "promised" myself the PUA is my "secret weapon" with which I will become a "great fucker of women". And the idea that this vision/dream is false was deeply unpleasant for me. It was emotionally easier for me to keep believing than to face the reality that I have been fooled.

I have seen this in other PUAs too. Like let's say a guy learning Mystery Method for a few years is saying "for the hottest women, you need to use Negs!". Or "when I'm talking to a super hot chick, a model, I simply Neg her!". Problem: he never fucked a single model, a single high-caliber woman. He only had some 6-7 girls. When I ask him about it, he becomes confused and starts to make excuses how "results vary, he's still learning, blah blah blah". Actual results aren't his priority - his priority is the defense of his beliefs and him feeling good about them.

In case of Mystery Method followers it's especially visible due to the delusional contradiction between their belief that "Negs work great for the hottest women!" vs the reality of them never fucking a single top caliber woman. But it applied to other schools and contexts too.

I've seen guys alienate girls, even clearly interested girls, by using too harsh Cocky & Funny and not noticing it. Even when I tried telling them "hey, that girl was interested in you, all you needed was to talk normally to her and be nice", they resisted it, started arguing with me, etc. (BTW Cocky & Funny can work well, if done right. But many people are doing a rude "alpha-douchebag" type of Cocky & Funny and sabotate themselves.)

I've seen PUA community fuck up a lot of guys, guys with different personalities. Some came out of it, while some are essentially screwed up for life - they became so entrenched in their delusional beliefs, that they will most likely never face reality. I mean guys who for study pickup for 10 or more years, still suck with women, but they think they have "amazing knowledge". And they don't want to acknowledge the contradiction between their belief in "amazing knowledge" and the fact they're doing something for 10+ years and still get poor results. Because they would have fo face the fact they're in reality delusional weirdos and losers.

BTW That's why PUA community faded and the Red Pill community grew - a lof of people noticed that PUA methods don't work as advertised and that most PUAs don't get good results - they only pretend that they do.

As for me, I was lucky and met two naturals - I met them through PUA community, but they were naturals. They were already succesfuly with women, came to see what PUA is about, didn't like what they saw and left soon after... But I befriended them in that short period of time and we stayed friends afterwards. They played a huge role in "rescuing" me from PUA bullshit.

In the context of domination, my situation was complicated:

1. I had EXCELLENT natural instincts - I have psychopatic tendencies, I have natural BDSM inclinations, I love the feeling of total domination over a women, I enjoy humiliating them, etc etc. I have natural talent for sex and domination, BDSM vibes.

2. I was emotionally fucked up by toxic childhood and brainwashed by conservative upbringing. I had low self-esteem, was shy and also thought women will be disguisted by my "abnormal" urges.

3. Influence of PUA community helped in getting rid of 2, but also disrupted 1. It made things more artificial, more concentrated on social frames and "games"... Leading me away from the "animal inside me".

I became good when I've dropped the PUA bullshit and adopted the simple, natural game of the naturals I've met. Which is actually NICE and also not dominant.

For example, one of my natural friends fucked a maybe 8-9/10 girl by commenting on homeless cats she was feeding. And by keeping a "good, sweet guy" persona all the way. While in reality he's a dominant, agressive dick who thinks women are whores and is prone to domestic violence. But he's a ABSOLUTE EXPERT at hiding this and at playing sweet, safe, gentle guy.

PUA community was telling me "DON"T be a nice guy!". While the naturals were telling me something opposite - that I should play nice, play safe, pretend to be sweet and innocent, etc etc.

Later I've started to combine the natural "nice" game with state projection of my sexual and domination/BDSM urges.

My experiences align heavily with what Gunwitch was saying.... Especially Sexual State stuff. Also Gunwitch's view on "Social Frame" - while many PUAs do unusual things outside of social norms, I really prefer staying within social norms (up to a certain moment).

 

[D. Gately]

Which is actually NICE and also not dominant

PUA community was telling me "DON"T be a nice guy!". While the naturals were telling me something opposite - that I should play nice, play safe, pretend to be sweet and innocent, etc etc.

Later I've started to combine the natural "nice" game with state projection of my sexual and domination/BDSM urges.

You can succeed doing both at the same time. Without being an asshole alpha male that turns them off. Not that you need my advice.

I dress and act and speak like a high-status, dominant man who's interested in bdsm sex with them on the 1st or 2nd date, but that is combined with being a gentleman in public. Somebody 'safe' as you correctly point out. "I contain multitudes," ~W.W.

Hence the 'Gentleman Rake' archetype. Someone who dresses with classic elegance and can be kind while also teasing.

I've seen guys alienate girls, even clearly interested girls, by using too harsh Cocky & Funny and not noticing it.

You are 100% spot-on, this is what skills and I were discussing in the other thread.

I've pulled way, way back on the teasing and the C/F unless I know they can handle it. A lot of young women simply aren't able to handle old-school pua methods until they get to know you well, the pandemic ruined their prime socialization years.

Or they're so used to everyone telling them how wonderful they are, that a simple witty, sarcastic bit of banter sends them into a state of shock or cognitive dissonance and ruins the seduction.

 

[enerdroyddubz]

I was trying to point out how lumping different traits together, like being attractive to women and being "leader of men", into concepts like "alpha male" is a bad idea.

I think it's about (sets of) singular traits, evoking singular impressions/emotions in women.

Like in me either looks or state projection or behavior, I have:

Trait X1 -> Girl impression/emotion Y1
Trait X2 -> Gilrl impression/emotion Y2
Trait X3 - > Girl impression/emotion Y3
(...) And so on and so on.

I think lumping this into umbrella terms like "alpha male" only causes confusion and misunderstandings.

I project intense sexual vibes + BDSM/psychopatic vibes + aristocratic/high status + many girls told me I'm "sweet".

I know a guy who got laid a lot, but he had none of my above qualities. He had a "alternative" style, partied a lot, but not in the "high energy" sense, but in sense of home parties with young people drinking and smoking weed. Kind of a "alternative style, weed guy". His emotional style was kind of seeking escape from the world, seeking freedom from "opressive, stiff society", etc etc. And in his way, he was a leader of men within that circle and a sort of "high status" among the people he partied with.

Me and him are so different...does it make sense to lump us two under the same "alpha male" concept?



Like I wrote ealier, my girlfriend said that I'm "like a snake with razor sharp fangs, dripping with poison". Deciphering what it actually means could be "a bit" difficult for most people.

And if somebody would try to copy it...I think most likely outcome would be "disastrous failure".



Yes. And I've noticed that very often people THINK were displaying positive quality A, when in fact they're failing and are really displaying negative quality B. They don't notice they're failing at faking.



One simple thing would be to dress in a way suggesting you're rich.

Also, verbal lying can work well.

Girl: So what do you do for a living?
Guy: Oh I own a hotel and a spa.

Also:

Girl: I'm a model.
Guy: Nice. My brother has a modelling agency and I've hang around a lot with these girls.
Girl: So you have a hotel and a spa, and your brother has a modelling agency?
Guy: Yeah, we're a rich family, our father made tons of money on real estate trading.

This also communicates:

1. Being around models is normal.
2. "Hanging around a lot" can cause her to wonder is you dated/slept around with them.
3. You have contacts in modelling industry she might take advantage of.

If successful, in few minutes you can go from "some guy" to "rich guy with contacts in modelling industry".

Some guys create instagram profiles for this purpose or just show girls photos on their phones. Like photos with (rented) luxury cars and so on.

This works. And I find it insane how the PUA community largely ignores such traditional methods, instead creating supposedly "advanced" and "revolutionary" methods in reality don't work too well. (Traditional in in terms of instagram photos, but in terms of just plain old lying.)

The "rich beta" type guy with hot girlfriend didn't get her by doing Negs, Cocky & Funny, etc. Most likely he was simply dressed rich and confirmed it in the conversation. And yes, very likely they've met through friends or something, but similar effect can be achieved in cold approaches.

If somebody doesn't like to lie, he can just dress rich and make girls make assumptions on their own.

From experience

I was trying to point out how lumping different traits together, like being attractive to women and being "leader of men", into concepts like "alpha male" is a bad idea.

I think it's about (sets of) singular traits, evoking singular impressions/emotions in women.

Like in me either looks or state projection or behavior, I have:

Trait X1 -> Girl impression/emotion Y1
Trait X2 -> Gilrl impression/emotion Y2
Trait X3 - > Girl impression/emotion Y3
(...) And so on and so on.

I think lumping this into umbrella terms like "alpha male" only causes confusion and misunderstandings.

I project intense sexual vibes + BDSM/psychopatic vibes + aristocratic/high status + many girls told me I'm "sweet".

I know a guy who got laid a lot, but he had none of my above qualities. He had a "alternative" style, partied a lot, but not in the "high energy" sense, but in sense of home parties with young people drinking and smoking weed. Kind of a "alternative style, weed guy". His emotional style was kind of seeking escape from the world, seeking freedom from "opressive, stiff society", etc etc. And in his way, he was a leader of men within that circle and a sort of "high status" among the people he partied with.

Me and him are so different...does it make sense to lump us two under the same "alpha male" concept?



Like I wrote ealier, my girlfriend said that I'm "like a snake with razor sharp fangs, dripping with poison". Deciphering what it actually means could be "a bit" difficult for most people.

And if somebody would try to copy it...I think most likely outcome would be "disastrous failure".



Yes. And I've noticed that very often people THINK were displaying positive quality A, when in fact they're failing and are really displaying negative quality B. They don't notice they're failing at faking.



One simple thing would be to dress in a way suggesting you're rich.

Also, verbal lying can work well.

Girl: So what do you do for a living?
Guy: Oh I own a hotel and a spa.

Also:

Girl: I'm a model.
Guy: Nice. My brother has a modelling agency and I've hang around a lot with these girls.
Girl: So you have a hotel and a spa, and your brother has a modelling agency?
Guy: Yeah, we're a rich family, our father made tons of money on real estate trading.

This also communicates:

1. Being around models is normal.
2. "Hanging around a lot" can cause her to wonder is you dated/slept around with them.
3. You have contacts in modelling industry she might take advantage of.

If successful, in few minutes you can go from "some guy" to "rich guy with contacts in modelling industry".

Some guys create instagram profiles for this purpose or just show girls photos on their phones. Like photos with (rented) luxury cars and so on.

This works. And I find it insane how the PUA community largely ignores such traditional methods, instead creating supposedly "advanced" and "revolutionary" methods in reality don't work too well. (Traditional in in terms of instagram photos, but in terms of just plain old lying.)

The "rich beta" type guy with hot girlfriend didn't get her by doing Negs, Cocky & Funny, etc. Most likely he was simply dressed rich and confirmed it in the conversation. And yes, very likely they've met through friends or something, but similar effect can be achieved in cold approaches.

If somebody doesn't like to lie, he can just dress rich and make girls make assumptions on their own.

Ya being asscociated with the modeling industry generates an insane amout of preselection and status forsure. When I worked in the industry I got way more dates from cold approach because girls knew I had models around me all the time. I think it's a competition thing for the most part