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struggling with flirting, how do you create man to woman frame?

Brassfaced_Jim

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@mirror
I really like this guys explanation of pickup.
It’s quite a simple formula and sequential and pretty much how all my pickups have gone,

The Focus part and how he describes it with the pause before speaking and the eye contact is how to kick off flirting with women pretty much, after that it’s whatever ‘style ‘ a guy prefers or is comfortable with,


Rob judge and Zack Bauer had some infield back in the day , it was quite good but hard to find now . It was on a website called ‘PickupTube’ but that’s closed down,
 

Will_V

Chieftan
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This kinda Game of OTT flirting -“your amazing looks are just having this effect on me, I can’t control myself around such beauty/ it’s *your* fault “ is very very effective imo and ime.

cos women LOVE flattery and to be an object of desire. Flatters their ego big time.

Yes very true, but the important caveat is that the way you express your pleasure in her must be very non needy and inviting, something that she can parttake in without feeling like you're latching onto her. A relaxed, open, dynamic expression of admiration, mixed with curiosity, that does not cost you anything, the experience of which is enough in itself.

This mainly works for men that have passed some 'creep' assessment.

No, creepiness usually comes from how you express desire for her, it's not something that is judged before that. You can't separate the two.

Also, lack of control may sound cute in "fast' seduction" but might bite back in long term stuff.

What does this mean?

There is, but it requires going very cold. Very very cold. Like cold coquette like cold. Then some statusbuilding and figuring out how to make her curious.

No, if you creep her out it's because your expression of desire, your attention toward her, is expressed in a creepy way, e.g.:

- You look inhibited, tense.
- You try to conceal it in a furtive way.
- Your attention/desire coincides with negative feelings such as anxiety, anger, desperation that appear at intervals on your face.

The solution is of course to correct these things, not to put on some cold mask and use social kung fu to get yourself out of the situation.

If you have the self-control to find your way out of a bad situation socially, then you have the self control not to get into it in the first place.
 

mirror

Space Monkey
space monkey
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No, creepiness usually comes from how you express desire for her, it's not something that is judged before that. You can't separate the two.

Creepiness also comes from social mistakes/social uncalibrated nature/ looks that dont fit the social atmosphere/crazy shit physically that already make people pre-select or label as creepy.
It doesn't need to be desire that is expressed, or at least not sexual/romantic desire that calls it up. but it can be.

I am talking about social kungfu the moment you notice someone is totally gone into the creepyness labelling/associations too much.
 

Brassfaced_Jim

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Creepiness also comes from social mistakes/social uncalibrated nature/ looks that dont fit the social atmosphere/crazy shit physically that already make people pre-select or label as creepy.
It doesn't need to be desire that is expressed, or at least not sexual/romantic desire that calls it up. but it can be.

I am talking about social kungfu the moment you notice someone is totally gone into the creepyness labelling/associations too much.
Basically everything RSD Tyler does infleld in Bars and Clubs , for an example on video 😆 😜
 

Brassfaced_Jim

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Basically everything RSD Tyler does infleld in Bars and Clubs , for an example on video 😆 😜
I mean the first part of your reply re Creepiness.

not the social Kung Fu.
Pretty sure TD has Asbergers or somesuch.
His ‘Game’ Is total shit from what I can see ( and by all other accounts also)
 

Brassfaced_Jim

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Re the social king fu,
It’s feasible that on a one-on-one situ with a girl, I could ignore , and switch up my strategy in conversation to get “around” this and defuse it / dissolve it over time yeah. It really depends how hard she has tried to shut me down.

if others are in the vacinity.. other girls /ppl/ and also notably males or AMOGs, tread v carefully. A girl saying “creep” or “sleaze” in a loud voice can be like a Distress call out from her to other ppl and dudes in the vacinity. “Help me get this guy away”.

beat to be like the Scarlet Pimpernel in that situation and just disappear.
 

James Cruse

Cro-Magnon Man
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iDK lads.. the biggest problem I see with Day Game Cold Approach is this ..

beating the streets for pussy is a Low Value Male activity. Yknow?
if a guy has to hit the streets to try pickup women .. that means obvs he cannot get pussy from bars and clubs , or social circle or the usual channels.

Very few guys doing daygame "beat the streets" when they meet women in the day - they usually meet them while they're out shopping, doing errands, at the gym, at the beach, restaurant/cafe/eating, public transport, etc.
So meeting women is incidental in doing other normal things in their life.

If they did go out during the day specifically to do something else + meet women, so what? Why would you assume they "can't" get women from clubs and bars?
You can only really go to clubs and bars on Friday and Saturday nights (and even Friday nights aren't often that great) + people need to work the next day so can't stay out late, so they go daygame.

Lol do you really believe there's no other advantages/upsides to daygame (relative to night game)? Nightgame has a tiny window of time that you can do it in and daygame you have literally whenever you're available.
Women you meet in daygame don't have cockblocking friends with them and they're also not drunk and they know you're not drunk either.
You can also actually talk to them - without pounding loud music, distractions everywhere and random lights - and she can listen because she's sober and solely focused on you during the day.

and this would also be the opinion of the women being approached . As women are not stupid. And always have a guys ‘status’ in their assessment of him.

How do you know this would be the opinion of women being approached - do you do daygame or have you ever?
How exactly (in your opinion) do women judge a man's status in daygame (if you do or don't do it)?
only Chads & Co. guys with BIg Value can only overcome this issue in my mind. Because of the default ‘Low Value ‘ position a guy starts from … approaching on the street.
So you've done daygame and failed when you've done it? And you're saying only "chads" can succeed in daygame? And approaching women is just low value when you do it during the day? (but it's not the exact same low value in a club or anywhere else?)
This is very confusing.

Most guys have low value when they approach because they're not confident, very nervous, poor body language, tone is wavering and say:
"excuse me, so SORRY I was disturbing you (aka you're a princess and my presence is disturbing your majestic life lol) but you're so BEAUTIFUL" (aka I'm a piece of shit and you're above me lol)

- Of course their value drops when they do daygame approaches when that's what they do. The exact same bad body language or equivalent approach in clubs and bars would do just as bad, if not worse. So they're both the same.

Yknow? Really don’t see any evidence of any of this guys succeeding in getting decent Value women tbh. 🤷🏻‍♂️

So you don't think ANY guy can succeed in daygame? So this sounds like you're implying you didn't succeed in daygame (is that true? I thought you had) and that nobody COULD succeed?
Why?

And TBH it is my mantra and I believe this is an extremely powerful lesson for men that need it, like me at the time... So, always look for emotions not information.

Generalising (maybe too much): Being right vs Being fun / Ask vs Guess / Making sense vs. Making jokes / Being logical vs Being absurd / Think vs Act / Monotonous vs Expressive / "Me frame" vs "Us frame", etc I got more of those mental shortcuts if you want...

Very simple example:
- Information: I traveled to X, nice place and the hotel was quite comfortable, would totally recommend.
- Emotion: I can't deal with routine, it drives me mad... Last month I needed an impromptu mini quest, so I went to this wild X place to meet random people looking for adventure. Beach, people having fun and bottomless mimosas (*or whatever)... What about you?

Very solid advice here brother - well said. Did you read this somewhere? You should read Sexual Key by J.D. Fuentes to learn some other elements along similar lines.


But I digress... I wrote lots of pages for myself w/tools, models, tactics, etc; from years of trial and error, if you want to I can drop here a few more (and be corrected by the pros when that's the case). Also, I suggest you actually think of better examples than mine, it's a good exercise. You can also try light playful shit tests with her, be the one having high standards.

I'd personally like to see the rest of your notes and what sources you got them from - it's all very good advice.

I would only not that you should try to minimise questions to 1-2 (or none) if you can avoid them.
Make statements instead - they're more difficult, but you can get alot further making clever statements, and are much more stimulating to her (and more fun for you), than questions.

Re the bolded bit about alcohol Ah hello? Why do you think women go to bars and clubs .. to ‘party ‘. And by ‘party’ they mean = dress hot and show off, drink, socialise and mingle w the opposite sex .. and if they are in the mood ,pickup a cute guy and get laid that night . As that is an extension of ‘having fun’..

Sweet J@sus 🤦🏻‍♂️
@OldGuy is right - there's not really alot of difference between both places. The difference in daygame is you don't have women's drunk/emotional/angry/jealous friend(s) dragging her away or needing to isolate her away from her friends. During the day, she's bored and isn't being stimulated.

Half the problem with forums for learning imho is that the chicks are often painted as passive . And that a guys Game does all the heavy lifting. In reality chicks get Randy also and go out “on the pull” also on certain nights out to bars and clubs.
I've met women "out on the pull" and girls that are my friends - it doesn't make them anymore "pro-active" just because she wants to get laid that night.
Usually women specifically "out on the pull" just become MORE passive or reactive to men - to get the result they want, rather than proactive.

Average guys that succeed w DayGame and get lays here and there , are actually in reality meeting chicks who have a particular set of circumstances going on.

Including being horny in the window she meets the guy. Re these London dayGamer crowd of PUAs.. it’s also usually that the girls are foreign and not settled or acclimatised yet to London. And possibly that they haven’t got laid in a few months since they moved to London. (Or wherever)

So it’s ‘horny foreigner Game’ in reality.

So you haven't succeeded with daygame? And the only guys succeeding are meeting women who happen to already be horny and waiting for a guy, by coincidence?

Many of these guys had sex with plenty of english girls. They only ran into foreigners so much because there were so many of them walking around solo in those public places, same in any large city centre in the world (where there's a fair amount of tourists).

Contrast this to the Jabba video and his low value male pussy begging (more or less)

Janka's terrible - just does fluff talk, asks for a number and leaves.

Jabba was doing just compliance and escalation (which I don't think he was usually even aware what he was doing). But nobody follows him now anyway, so Jabba isn't really relevant. Did you read his book? He had some good ideas in that.
Untrue , actually being seen as creepy can be overcome. But you really need very strong social awareness/good inner game/ good outergame etc. For it. It's not easy to be the most amazing person ever when stigmatized, but people can do it.

Being a creep is usually just poor/nervous body language and/or overly sexually aggressive, in an unjustified way.
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Very few guys doing daygame "beat the streets" when they meet women in the day - they usually meet them while they're out shopping, doing errands, at the gym, at the beach, restaurant/cafe/eating, public transport, etc.
So meeting women is incidental in doing other normal things in their life.

If they did go out during the day specifically to do something else + meet women, so what? Why would you assume they "can't" get women from clubs and bars?
You can only really go to clubs and bars on Friday and Saturday nights (and even Friday nights aren't often that great) + people need to work the next day so can't stay out late, so they go daygame.

Lol do you really believe there's no other advantages/upsides to daygame (relative to night game)? Nightgame has a tiny window of time that you can do it in and daygame you have literally whenever you're available.
Women you meet in daygame don't have cockblocking friends with them and they're also not drunk and they know you're not drunk either.
You can also actually talk to them - without pounding loud music, distractions everywhere and random lights - and she can listen because she's sober and solely focused on you during the day.



How do you know this would be the opinion of women being approached - do you do daygame or have you ever?
How exactly (in your opinion) do women judge a man's status in daygame (if you do or don't do it)?

So you've done daygame and failed when you've done it? And you're saying only "chads" can succeed in daygame? And approaching women is just low value when you do it during the day? (but it's not the exact same low value in a club or anywhere else?)
This is very confusing.

Most guys have low value when they approach because they're not confident, very nervous, poor body language, tone is wavering and say:
"excuse me, so SORRY I was disturbing you (aka you're a princess and my presence is disturbing your majestic life lol) but you're so BEAUTIFUL" (aka I'm a piece of shit and you're above me lol)

- Of course their value drops when they do daygame approaches when that's what they do. The exact same bad body language or equivalent approach in clubs and bars would do just as bad, if not worse. So they're both the same.



So you don't think ANY guy can succeed in daygame? So this sounds like you're implying you didn't succeed in daygame (is that true? I thought you had) and that nobody COULD succeed?
Why?



Very solid advice here brother - well said. Did you read this somewhere? You should read Sexual Key by J.D. Fuentes to learn some other elements along similar lines.




I'd personally like to see the rest of your notes and what sources you got them from - it's all very good advice.

I would only not that you should try to minimise questions to 1-2 (or none) if you can avoid them.
Make statements instead - they're more difficult, but you can get alot further making clever statements, and are much more stimulating to her (and more fun for you), than questions.


@OldGuy is right - there's not really alot of difference between both places. The difference in daygame is you don't have women's drunk/emotional/angry/jealous friend(s) dragging her away or needing to isolate her away from her friends. During the day, she's bored and isn't being stimulated.


I've met women "out on the pull" and girls that are my friends - it doesn't make them anymore "pro-active" just because she wants to get laid that night.
Usually women specifically "out on the pull" just become MORE passive or reactive to men - to get the result they want, rather than proactive.



So you haven't succeeded with daygame? And the only guys succeeding are meeting women who happen to already be horny and waiting for a guy, by coincidence?

Many of these guys had sex with plenty of english girls. They only ran into foreigners so much because there were so many of them walking around solo in those public places, same in any large city centre in the world (where there's a fair amount of tourists).



Janka's terrible - just does fluff talk, asks for a number and leaves.

Jabba was doing just compliance and escalation (which I don't think he was usually even aware what he was doing). But nobody follows him now anyway, so Jabba isn't really relevant. Did you read his book? He had some good ideas in that.


Being a creep is usually just poor/nervous body language and/or overly sexually aggressive, in an unjustified way.

^ good! I made the point of all those arguments here:

 

James Cruse

Cro-Magnon Man
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^ good! I made the point of all those arguments here:


I think people giving advice here on this discussion (and many other places on this forum) are giving that advice based on incomplete or ill-informed experience.

Alot of them don't realise you truly need alot of experience to form a balanced view of these things.
 

mirror

Space Monkey
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I think people giving advice here on this discussion (and many other places on this forum) are giving that advice based on incomplete or ill-informed experience.

Alot of them don't realise you truly need alot of experience to form a balanced view of these things.
Wisdom of the crowds often works however, so the truth will be found in the middle.
 

James Cruse

Cro-Magnon Man
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Wisdom of the crowds often works however, so the truth will be found in the middle.

I think 'wisdom of the crowds' works in simple issues, but not in this.

I find very few people who have a diverse range of seduction experiences and who have split tested many methods on many people to get to where they are now.

So "the crowd" of people is very small.
 

mirror

Space Monkey
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299
I think 'wisdom of the crowds' works in simple issues, but not in this.

I find very few people who have a diverse range of seduction experiences and who have split tested many methods on many people to get to where they are now.

So "the crowd" of people is very small.

Do we have an overview of methods and how to test them?
 

Brassfaced_Jim

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@James Cruse and @Skills

of course there are plenty of guys who beat the streets doing street approaches, by the x50 or x100 approaches. they are all over the forums. And being encouraged to keep doing so by the other forum users?

I could name a handful of them on the forum! But I won’t do so. I usually reply to their threads and tell them to stop doing that . As it’s super duper low odds of success. Obviously . It’s in the stats they post themselves . But they don’t wanna look at their own stats and do the math ?

It’s the old ‘commitment and consistency ‘ principle of psych in full effect.
 

James Cruse

Cro-Magnon Man
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of course there are plenty of guys who beat the streets doing street approaches, by the x50 or x100 approaches. they are all over the forums. And being encouraged to keep doing so by the other forum users?

I could name a handful of them on the forum! But I won’t do so. I usually reply to their threads and tell them to stop doing that . As it’s super duper low odds of success. Obviously . It’s in the stats they post themselves . But they don’t wanna look at their own stats and do the math ?

So you're indirectly implying everyone here is lying about their good results (when they get them) and ALL the people doing daygame are "beating the streets" and none of them are just meeting women (during the day) when going about their life?

And even if they were - why would it matter when they get good results? What's it to you and why are you opposing it when they're just beginners trying to get experience with talking to women or they're getting good results after they get some experience?
Some guys are beginners and want to fast track their experience and results with women, so they do so in a way that suits them, timewise.
They're usually younger and have more time to do this now or it's just more convenient for them due to other life circumstances.

Why has that put you offside?
 
Last edited:

Absolutely Human

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Very solid advice here brother - well said. Did you read this somewhere? You should read Sexual Key by J.D. Fuentes to learn some other elements along similar lines.

Thx man and TBH I can't remember, I'll check the book out although I'm not a big fan of NLP but I may totally be missing something.

I would only not that you should try to minimise questions to 1-2 (or none) if you can avoid them.
Make statements instead

Absolutely agree.

Thanks a lot man, i think i am going to be coming to your post again and again, there so many gems in here. Your mental shortcuts are amazing.

Glad to help @Arnav , aside from the "vs" shortcuts I also have my "and" shortcuts, some other examples from the top of my mind:
  • Cocky and Funny
  • Push and Pull
  • Tease and Compete
  • Value and Comfort
  • Compliment and Mess with
  • Relatability and Authenticity
  • etc.
I already said this but it's worth remembering: beware of monkey jumping.

What do you mean by challenges, competions, mini games. Could you give exmples of these?

This is basically eliciting positive emotions (not to be confused with arousal ofc). All stupid but fun stuff... I think self-amusement is mandatory, bc of you but also bc of the 'PUA law':
  • What you feel, she feels.
So, for instance you can challenge her to chug a drink, or compete for who can make the waiter laugh first, or make a mini game of throwing straws to a glass of beer, etc.

Finding sub threads through emotional filter, so do you mean what are the feelings and emotions around that keyword or topic.
--------
So if I ask her
Me: what do you do after work
She: nothing I just go home and sleep.
Finding subthreads through <emotional filter >
Possible feelings here >boredom, exhausted, tired, laziness.

Me: I get that, I slog through the week at worj as well and I love spending a lazy afternoon on a weekend with my headphones and a soda.
----------
Did i do it right?

Yes, that's quite it... So every topic has adjacent topics (also, you can hard pivot too, which is fun but doing it too much can be off putting, my ADHD knows) and you always use an emotion to thread, in your example:
  • Me: what do you do after work
    She: nothing I just go home and sleep.
    Finding subthreads through <emotional filter >
    Possible feelings here >boredom, exhausted, tired, laziness.
Yes exactly, which ofc needs calibration (= experience)... Here you may answer with "YOLO" or something to make light fun of her (then maybe adding smth): note that "emotional filter" is not always is just an emotion, you are trying to banter, polarize, eventually sexualize, etc.

OK I just read your last line (the 'lazy afternoon' one)... That's OK, as a side note: you can use other type of sentence like "what's better than a lazy afternoon + headphones + a drink?" to not sound monotonous... But mainly I would highly recommend to keep in mind what I just said above.

Keep the interaction moving, your not just trying to be pleasant.

Also, understand what you are trying to convey... There's an opportunity cost to every answer you give, your reply could be used to generate mystery or make her know about your social life (e.g. "Oh, I'll be working on my music project" or "Oh, I'll be meeting this new friend")... Having an actual life does help.

As a general rule, just agreeing/condoning/complying is boring and unsexy, so make it a game, banter, look for a reaction.

I'd personally like to see the rest of your notes and what sources you got them from - it's all very good advice.

My notes are too many and too messy but here are some other ideas... My sources are quite random (I did consume quite a bit from MM and RSD back in the day, and started with David D... But also miscellaneous PUAs and Chase obviously too, also a lot of IRL/AFK testing).

Here or some other frameworks I keep in mind, besides the 'information vs. emotion' one, so not very technical stuff, which I may add later, but still important I think... Having a base, a structure to me is essential, it's your default (so apart from tools, strategies, etc.):
  • "Expansive mentality" (vs. Contractive mentality):
    • Abundance mentality (vs Scarcity)
    • The world is your friend
    • Socialization s not a zero sum game
    • Have fun and share it
    • Smile
    • Do stuff (act)
    • Sex is fun, natural and a shared experience (not desperate for it, not hyperfocused)
    • Joke around, make friends
    • Stop debating for christ sake
    • etc... you get the idea
  • "No ego"
    • Be non-reactive (this is a huge one)
    • Shit tests are just a game -treat them as IOIs- (ofc there are actual mean girls, just filter those out)
    • Take criticism, reject attacks
    • Have a good life, let others hate
    • Love yourself (but never stop improving)
    • Be understanding of other people suffering and their actions towards you
    • Know your faults
    • Recognize when you do wrong
    • etc
  • "Be a child"
    • Have wonder and curiosity
    • Be genuine
    • Don't filter emotions
    • Be vulnerable
    • Be outcome independent
    • Play with other people
    • Don't take yourself too seriously
    • Improvise
    • Dance
    • Be silly
    • Experiment
    • etc
Note that I'm not mentioning the sexual aspect of the interaction. I think of it as a layer on top of these frameworks (but I'm open to other models of course) and although sex is the final goal of PUA I think it's better to think it as part of a whole (sex is something natural to you, one more of the cool experiences you have), something that follows from having a solid framework (plus the technical stuff). The technical stuff is absolutely important too, but at least to me you need to first have a good healthy mental structure.

One other huge lesson for me (top 3 maybe) I had is:
Be absolutely 1000% *actually* willing to lose her, even try to (as in: be emotionally detached/not dependent)... This will make you x10000 more attractive (and will give you enormous peace of mind). Be outcome independent.

The above comes naturally when you actually have an abundance of options (you stop caring about reactions/losing her/etc), but: if you manage to embrace this mentality early on, you will get the abundance faster...

Which is kind of paradoxical, and talking about that, I have written several paradoxes (or at least counter-intuitive thoughts) that are very interesting to keep in mind... All of these have caveats ofc, they are just some mental models:
  • Being explicit when displaying value decreases implicit value
  • To have a long term relationship, have multiple short ones first
  • To be romantic first be superficial (I wish some friends of mine understand this one)
  • To get her closer, distance yourself
  • A popcorn fight can be more meaningful than a trip on a cruise ship
  • To cure one-itis, meet other woman
  • Fake non-neediness to get actual non-neediness
  • Working just on money/looks/status will only get you so fa
  • To show that you understand her you don't need to ask a lot of questions
  • Talking is not enough (not a desired way) to bond
  • Hyperfocusing only sex keeps sex away

Ok, a few extra 'rules' (pretty sure these are by Julien):
  • Offer value
  • Make yourself feel good
  • Get out of your own way
  • Be real
  • Communicate clearly
  • Think win win
  • Play to win
  • Get better not bitter (I think you don't need this one TBH @Arnav)
On compliance tests, some quick examples:
  • "Come here."
  • High five
  • Thumb wars
  • Massage
  • “Google that for me.”
  • Height check
  • “Listen to this.”
  • Check jewelry
  • Instant Date (obviously)
And some random questions for deep diving:
  • Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you want as a dinner guest?
  • What would constitute a “perfect” day for you?
  • Do you have a secret hunch about how you will die?
  • For what in your life do you feel most grateful?
  • What is your most treasured memory?
I will stop here as I don't wanna spam, but I will eventually give all my notes a structure and may post something here like more tools, immediate tactics, humor stuff, sexual frames, etc.

But TBH you will find much better and organized info in GirlsChase (and asking the forum pros), I'm just chiming in w/some ideas for you @Arnav to explore.

I hope this helps.
 
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