@Chase it seems like we are really going in circles some lurkers from the forum are telling me not to waste my time answering cause there may be gaslighting going on.... I told them "nah chase is stand up dude, he would not be engaging in such despicable type behavior, his been nothing but fair to me and has giving me a place to call home, let me give him like i always have the benefit of the doubt...."
Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse that's seen in abusive relationships. It's the act of manipulating a person by forcing them to question their thoughts, memories, and the events occurring around them. A victim of gaslighting can be pushed so far that they question their own sanity.
skills: hey dudes i got laid last night and this is what happened and how it happened and what you can take from it....
Gun: dude you stole this from me (multiple months later by miracle coincidence the day
a poster name sunkin posted "gunwitch method would couldn't close" and skills participated on that post, the same day by the grace of god gunwitch happens to find this post and revive.... Just a coincidence i am not accusing anybody of anything, is just i believe in coincidence... (by the way my answer in that post would not have work i was trying to show how i get my phone numbers but in that case would not have work)
skills: dude i did not
gun: yes you did i wrote about this on the book the way of the gun
skills: (thinking the way of the gun is the original gun method, 2 different products) i read that book 8 years ago, hold on let me waste my time and read that book again to see if i probably gun wrote about it in the original book and i have a case of cryptomensia:
an implicit memory phenomenon in which people mistakenly believe that a current thought or idea is a product of their own creation when, in fact, they have encountered it previously and then forgotten it.
skills: dude i never did this is like me thinking that you stole forcing ais and rename it..... I was trying to make a freaking analogy...
gun: yes you did i know when i smell bullshit you stole from me......
chase: skills please give credit when credit is due (a dude that had a long history of going out of the way to quote chase, teevester, gunwitch and the poster that name drops and quotes the most in the history of the seduction community, teevester aka alek rosland is quoted hundreds of times in my blogs and videos)
skills: chase i always quote always, is my history and my track record...
chase: i read that in swingcat
skills: i never read swincat...
chase: dude please give quotes and credit...
skills: chase i never was in masf, i never read swingcat, i never read or purchase the way of the gun....
^ so chase i don't know what else to do, do you want me to take a lie detector.... And if i pass would re-inburse me the time and cost.... Please let me know....
now to all of your points:
I'd probably be offended and end up with a flame war with someone who responded to me accusing me of biting off him, personally.
nope i am not offended, i can take what i can not take is being accused of something THAT I DID NOT DO NOR HAPPENED, I NEVER READ THIS IN A BOOK OR BLOG (gunwitch did not post in mpua forum, gunwitch barely ever post in nextasf and he barely ever posts here...I don't read his stuff is not my style of game, he is nothing like the original gun, he totally change the style..,
I can understand you not knowing the fighting stance opener traces back to Gunwitch. A lot of attribution is ancient history now. I didn't know that before this thread. Actually, while looking this stuff up, I also stumbled across a post where Formhandle is talking about his new theory about these things he calls 'approach invitations' and how he's noticed women are using them to signal men to come talk to them. I didn't know he originated that term (there's scientific research from the 1980s about signals women send to prompt an approach from a man. They didn't call them AIs and I'd be surprised if Jay read that research. But who knows, maybe!).
^ where is his attribution to the fighting stance, should, do you want me before i make a post to send to you and gun to make sure, that the idea that i came up, nobody has ever done in the field.... Most of the time when things you do noone can relate is called kj, please let me know if you want me to send gun and you everytime something happens to me in the field or i want to write a post if i should submitt to you and gun to make sure nobody has ever written about it... Chase should i show you my multiple topics i have written about that i find your blog??again the latest one on the social media??
Haha, you said approach invitations are bullshit? Well... agree to disagree... although they definitely should never be an approach requirement.
My bread and butter is body language reads, forcing approach invitations, and female micro expressions there were heated debates in nextasf on approaching based on warm approaches (approach invites) or cold approaches.... so to stop everyone from fighting so silliness i came out with the post called debunking approach invites, unfortunately is gone, i quoted in detail aaron sleazy, illuminatus, gambler, steve jabba here is what i said in summary in 2014:
I quote in my book, posts and in my blog tons of good seducers, why? Cause I do not have a big ego, I put your getting good with women over my originality. This post by a guru named corvette aka Illuminatus is one of the best posts I have ever read and will make a difference in your seductions right away plus it totally matches my 20 plus year experience. When I approach strangers, I am always trying to force or identify what we call “approach invites”. I went out with a community dude that was amazed how every girl I open was into me, though I did not close that night due to the dude wanted to go home early. Now, if there are no approach invites present which it will be the case most of the time specially with hot women that have learned through the years to hide the signs well, what I will do is to force approach invites by way of proximity, eye contact, smirk, hand signal, hoovering, dancing etc… For all of you guys that read my blog over analyse and mentally masturbate, I got you covered. Skills, but what if there is not approach invites or what if she is not receptive or giving me anything to work on, wtf do I do? good question, and I got you, here is the answer, any absence of fuck off body language in my opinion should be considered and approach invite. So lets say I am dancing and there is a cutie dancing with her friends, and she is not looking at me or giving me anything to work on, what I will do is try to open her lets say by way of dancing coming from the front (always approach from the front, never from the back) anyways, if she does not hugh her friend(rescue mechanism), slow or stop the dance, look at me with disgust in her face or move away. I will consider that as a welcome body language as oppose to as a fuck off body language, get me?. The more experience you get the more you will be able to master approach invites and body language. Approach invites and body language are THE KEY TO NATURAL GAME, that combined with being ballsy/confident/fearless and lack of neediness is what will make you good, given that you are above average in looks and style. Finally, here is Corvette aka Illuminatus on Approach invites aka overextensions:
Women do become sexually aroused by the presence of a guy who either subcommunicates alpha traits or just looks good to her in some way. It happens in microseconds, just the same as it does in men when they see a woman they like. None of this “men are like a lightswitch; women are like a fader knob” shit – they are pretty much the same as us.
As your social acuity improves, you will see in real time that she is affected by your presence. Examples:
-Two girls are talking. You walk past, and suddenly one of their voices gets louder, and stops sounding natural. Sometimes this is followed by nervous laughter to cover it up.
-You walk up to the bar and suddenly girl starts fumbling with menu.
-Out of the corner of your eye you can see that the girl’s gestures have become more pronounced and unnatural, as though self-conscious.
-Any situation where her behaviour suddenly becomes less natural and more pronounced as a result of your arrival. We assume it’s sexual arousal because a) ALL interactions between men and women are sexual by nature, and b) If it’s a low-value male with weak body language he will not affect her and her behaviour will not change, implying that she is subconsciously screening for sexual traits.
I call all of these overexertions because her body language and behaviours become more pronounced, and she “exerts” herself more for your benefit.
The previous behaviours occur when her being affected has just entered her awareness. When it has been in her awareness a bit longer, she may begin doing things like:
-If she noticed you earlier, she will suddenly appear next to you at the bar. C’mon, we have all had that happen at some point – a girl you know saw you suddenly appears next to you wherever you are.
-She may create a subtle situation for you to open her with, e.g. taking an inordinate amount of time choosing songs on the jukebox etc.
-Not so subtle situations, such as knocking into you at the bar.
-If she is particularly ballsy or just plain drunk, this could go to a full blown AI such as sitting on your lap, pinching your arse etc. These are rare but they do happen. Like I say, alcohol often plays a role here.
What I am trying to get you to think about here is that even if you don’t consider yourself attractive, you will have SOME of these overexertions coming your way from SOME girls who just like your look or who aren’t used to screening men very hard for alpha traits. Focusing on these girls will increase your lay rate considerably.
Girls who are not used to screening, who you will see more of these overexertions from, include: fatties and less hot girls who don’t get a lot of male attention, and YOUNGER girls who are inexperienced with men. This latter category is cool because many of them are very hot and simply haven’t yet learnt the art of a) Screening for alphas and b) Hiding their sexual arousal.
Knowing how to spot overexertions is entirely how naturals get laid.
———————————————–
HOW NATURALS COLD APPROACH
From what I’ve seen, a natural’s cold approach goes down one of two ways:
1) They subcommunicate alphaness ON PURPOSE to the girl, in the form of a smile, wink, or cheeky comment. Typically they do NOT “plough on” with the pickup, but will wait for her to respond so they know if it’s on or not. Naturals rarely waste time on a dead target as they tend to know from the start whether it’s going to work out.
2) They spot an overexertion and capitalize on it. If she’s fumbling with the menu, he could say “choose that one there”. One that I made up is if the girl “accidentally” knocks into me at the bar, I turn around and say “Why don’t you just rape me
” which has worked great for me.
Because the girl did the overexertion, no matter how subtle, she knows she is in some way responsible for the interaction, and is therefore MUCH more likely to continue through to the end. There is a sense of investment, and that she’s used her “wily girl ways” to get your attention.
A natural getting laid usually results from early interest from the woman, and nearly always goes down in this fashion. Most of the man’s game is about escalating properly and not fucking it up at this point.
———————————————–
IOIs vs. OVEREXERTIONS
Overexertions should be treated as IOIs.
The reason I’ve called them overexertions in this post is because “indicator of interest” may be misleading to a newb.
If you’re inexperienced and looking for IOIs, you might tend to look for the really obvious ones, like her twiddling her hair etc.
What I’m saying is that IOIs occur on a spectrum from overexertions at the very bottom to approach invitations and statements of intent at the very top.
If you only focus on the obvious, you will miss the little overexertions at the bottom of the scale, and potentially fail to spot MANY girls who like you already.
Naturals get laid by chatting the girls they think already like them. They pick up on the girls who show them interest, and even if it’s only 1%, they will go with those girls.
lets continue addressing your points:
Anyway, I will just say that if you're posting something you know you didn't originate, the general best practice is to give credit to the originator, or just to say, "I forget where I got this from but blah blah..."
^ this is what i have been doing for more than 10 years in the community and this is water is wet territory, don't believe me ask mr. alek rolstand/teevester how many times have quoted him in my blog, and videos(even when we are in fighting terms)....
The only time I won't do that personally is with originators who've told me they do not want me crediting them (I've had a few old school guys request I not mention them because they're out of PUA and me mentioning them always leads to guys remembering, then looking up and contacting them out of the blue and I guess they're worried about their post-pickup lives being sullied with their earlier pickup artistry).
^ see i would never do that i want to give credit were credit is do, if that would happened to me, i would pass on the article...
I don't know why Gun didn't post in past threads of yours about AIs/pAImAIs, maybe he didn't see them, or what have you. Dunno that history.
Honestly as a mod I don't particularly want to weigh in on anybody's side here. I brought up the attribution stuff, but otherwise, I'm not going to yell at Gun for not being gentler in how he responded to you, I'm not going to yell at you for not attributing properly, or get involved in "is expanding on a concept the same as developing it" or whatnot, lol.
^unfortunately you are.... basically you are saying "skills you stole this from gun and did not credit him" subcommunication.... come on chase, if i am you i would have talk like you have in the past to me and gunwitch in pm OR ON THE TRIBAL FORUM, what is the point of the TRIBAL FORUM??????? why air this stuff in public, this is not even my freaking type of game AND IT DID NOT WORK IT MADE THE GIRL CRY...i just opened, i mean if you tell me i stole "gunwitch 3 keys" would a freaking normal occurrance that every natural does, is ridiculous....
By the way chase, where is the attribution you want me to credit, it has been 3 days i am waiting for gun to post what he claims i stole....
I'm not especially viewing Gun as being a mod in this thread. It's just an attribution dust-up between a couple of senior guys. Which I saw plenty of times back on mASF.
If I was Gun I would've been gentler with you, personally. But then I wouldn't being Gun if I was coming on here all gentle-like 
Nah i don't need gently, i can take it, what i don't want is, someone is an admin or a mod, fuck with you, and then you are not allow to fight back cause you get banned or suspended.... I am skills, i been doing dance floor game in nightclubs, i been defending the community against mras, redpillers, mgtow, and puahaters.... More importantly i do cold approach in loud nightclubs, this for me is a little scratch in an mma fight, gun has seen me destroyed trolls, he thought cause he is a mod, and he treathen me to ban me, that i would be like ok boss, and keep my mouth shot. But skills the original got woken up.... and gun knows that, so if i am going down i am going down swinging.... i know he has been trying to go into my private pm, and try to ban me for a while.... this time i am not going to get bullied anymore, he has been bullying me behind his mod powers for a while i kept my mouth shot, and pm you chase, but it did not work... so i got a do what i got a do a hit the bully right in the mouth... Also if we need to discuss things like this in person cool too... ( you seen the pms, and the way he talk to me in pm, and you saw how he talk to me in vision post, and you saw how he ban my ips) and look at his level of paranoia(why he did not do this in pm why he has to do this publicly:
Nope haven't banned anyone manually in any way that I can think of since Velasco, with that exact message multiple complaints thing as reason.
I don't know if Velasco managed to hack me, or if it's autobanning IPs he is trying to use, or he was on a VPN in NYC that uses same IP many others use.
Gun
^ why not send this on pm to you... this shit need to stop... i know velasco did not do this shit! He is just a bullie, always have been with the women of nextasf, always will be.... The reason we have problems is cause i fucking beat up bullies in the street he try to fuck with present a female poster i confronted him... since then he has a hard on for me...
To be fair, if you originated an entire branch of seduction, as Gun did with the whole sexual vibe / nonverbal thing (at least in terms of the online PUA community... obviously there've been guys doing that throughout history, but Gun was the first to codify it), anyone coming after you talking about that whether he traces it directly back to your or not is probably going to have been influenced at least a bit by your stuff.
^ good for him... and that is great! and i know he influence and help teevester and bacchaus and some of the guys here at the start, and that is good, i don't doubt this... but he is paranoid and think everyone is stealing.... like this post sample...
60 YOC owed a lot to Gunwitch, I'd agree. If you read GWM and then read 60 there's a whole lot of overlap. That's not to take anything from 60. 60's stuff is also great.
^ i read both there is overlap but they are totally different, 60 relies on none verbal and micro escalation... Gunwitch game now a days is nothing like that... does not mean 60yoc stole gunwitch, influence yes.... But the word "steal" i don't think so...
RSD copied absolutely everybody. I had a reader meet TD at a VIP table in some LA club and spend an hour telling him all this stuff he got from me... deep diving, Law of Least Effort, a bunch of stuff... he said TD was interested and wanted to talk to me and he was going to set up a meet between us. And I was like "No fucking way... TD never met a PUA whose methods he wouldn't steal and turn into a product of his own!" I sent that email right to the trash box.
^ i know he stole from a bunch of people, that we agree on...
That said, PUA is also a community, and once you get ideas out there it's not always easy to remember where they came from. You can have independent rediscoveries... or guys who did in fact learn things from you, but don't remember that's where they got it from.
i got it from the field, puas can do similar shit, i have been doing 60 yoc, david d cocky funny, grandmaster, since i am 17 before there was a community, i did not STEAL OR READ FROM GUNWITH OR SWINGCAT or masf or _________ fill in the blank the fighting stance, is SOMETHING THAT I CAME UP WITH IN THE FIELD NATURALLY, i already gave a sample and i can go with million of examples of commonalities: opening singing, pulling out dick, grabbing her phone and calling myself as a misscalled, fucking from behind and pulling condom out.... and on and on, shit people will do naturally without reading.... AGain that is how we find out who is kj when the dude does not do what everybody and their mother does naturally when they are good with women... come on i can't believe i am wasting time going in circle explaining this to mpuas??
I used to have things I thought I independently came up with, and I'd go around feeling proud of myself for coming up with this new thing, and then I'd read some old post by a guy I'd studied a lot and be like, "Whoops, lol, there he is talking about that thing I thought I came up with on my own, and I definitely read this post before. Well that's embarrassing."
^ i don't study gunwitch a lot, again i don't study gunwitch a lot, i don't study gunwitch a lot... hoovering concept i do this naturally so does every other natural, social, sexual, emotional cool concept, being persistant and not premature ejecting great... projecting sexual animalistic desire awesome.... That is my extend of my knowladge of gunwitch, nothing else,, and most of that stuff i don't even do in my game... I don't copy or imitate or try to be like nobody i try to be like skills(the stuff i do is pretty unique specially on the dance floor and texting and sexual humor).....
I have also seen it a lot with guys from the GC audience... one of our old moderators sent me this long message telling me about this new tactic he was developing that he felt was quite brilliant. It was something from one of my articles from like 6 years earlier... pretty much verbatim. I'm certain he must have read it, internalized it, forgotten it, then had it bubble up at some point and thought it was an original idea.
^ not what happened here, i was an a club, girl bump into me, i overexagerated and cause a shit storm, and did the fighting stance, she cried...
This is part of why academics gets so nasty. All the citations, and refutations, and needs for attribution, etc. You read a scientific paper and the first third is giving credit to a bunch of different prior authors. It's good for background and building up a solid foundation for the paper to come, but it also makes the idea of writing a paper feel like a real task.
Anyway... attribution, what can you say.
People care about getting credit for their stuff.
If they didn't, they wouldn't put it out there.
It's often going to lead to nasty dustups.
^ chase you can repeat attribution all you want, I DON'T READ GUNWITCH, I DID NOT READ THIS IN MASF, I DID NOT READ SWINCAT, I WAS NOT IN MASF, I NEVER READ MASF, I NEVER REAN WAY OF GUN, I DID NOT STEAL THIS, I DID NOT STEAL THIS, I DID NOT STEAL THIS, I DID NOT STEAL THIS....
lets not go in circles, tired of wasting my energy on this silly subject...
P.s. in case this gets deleted i taken multiple screen shots...
