Troll attention-seeking thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
Here is what I am thinking these days,
I was thinking that at some point of the seduction process we have to show intent giving our power away anyways because if we think about it we can not run an entire seduction saying to the girls stuffs like "I love you but some part of me hate you". One thing that I have been seeing in real life is that the Ego of the girl makes hugh influence in the girl's decision to have sex or not, and in many cases girls do not like guys who never take the risk to get rejected, I mean, guys who keep with the push-pull all the time. Girls have ego as well and won't reciprocate if the intention of the man is not clear, men has to take the first step (girls say), while you keep showing intent in a non clear way like push pull girls will not reciprocate because they dont want to be exposed first. It becomes like a bottle and a game where any side want to risk to lose value. When this game happen, girls will give you the last sentence "fuck you dude". In this case you never lose your value becausr you never showed you were sold but you never get the laid.

It is like there are 2 ways and the first one always end in failure:
1. You never show intent giving your power away (Push Pull, Premise in the negative, etc) but you also create the Ego Battle where the girl if you do not change at some point the attitue, she will ultimate say "fuck off dude". And at the other hand we have option 2.

2. You show intent clearly genuine and direct (no push pull or any other similar shit) like "I like you", "I am very attracted to you", etc. In this case you SOI and you give the girl the chance to reciprocate and get you laid although you risk rejection and lose value.

Hold your value and not get laids Or Risk Your value but You increase the chance to get a laid.



The sexual inuendos, the sexual misinterpretations and sexual overload techniques, etc They all show intent and give the power away. For example

"You turn me on so much when you do that [whatever] or wear that [whatever]". You then inmidiately give her the chance to reject your intention and make you drop your social value if she responds something like: "Yes but Don't get any idea. It wont happen [and she walks away].

If there are friends or people around, they will think "You are such a Loser".

I mean, every time you escalate you are giving your power away.

Can anyone clarify me this shit?
 
Last edited:

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
1,199
What is your point? Are you talking about avoiding rejection? You fellas need to learn how to put less stock in a womans opinion about you. They can sense when you are not invested in their judgement or are. So just escalate but hold your frame as a high value man.

In other words after rejection or resistance there is another frame battle. Which can be brushed off easily if you have enough faith in yourself and carry yourself well. Perhaps it functions as a shittest as well, I have no idea.

Think of someone kicking a dbz characters neck and they dont feel it but smile. This scene usually functions to show how strong (value) the character is.
 
Last edited:

Warped Mindless

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
184
I don’t have time for a full in reply right now but I’ll revisit this when I get home. That said….

1) Forget about the concept of value. Focus on arousal, emotional connection, and leading. Forget about value. The whole concept of value fucks new guys up and makes them worry to much.

2) You two are on the same team. She wants an awesome sexy guy and you want a cool sexy girl. You are on the same team so stop looking at it as you vs her.
 

Toby2030

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
291
Alek has a great series on the matter. I think it will clear it up a little easier for you.
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,093
You need to get past the concept of value.
Value is not the only determinant to wether you get a girl or not, there are a bunch of other factors (attainability, logistics, connection)…

Value maxxing is also a way to see the world that appeals to the masculine mind and seems correct at the beginning but as soon as you start digging, it falls apart.
Girls DO NOT think this way.

Women are not choosing you only for your value and prioritizing it is not going to get you laid.

My advice:
Read some articles about attainability. That should open your eyes to a more complex (and enjoyable) reality.
 

Kaiderman

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
99
What is your point? Are you talking about avoiding rejection? You fellas need to learn how to put less stock in a womans opinion about you. They can sense when you are not invested in their judgement or are. So just escalate but hold your frame as a high value man.

In other words after rejection or resistance there is another frame battle. Which can be brushed off easily if you have enough faith in yourself and carry yourself well. Perhaps it functions as a shittest as well, I have no idea.

Think of someone kicking a dbz characters neck and they dont feel it but smile. This scene usually functions to show how strong (value) the character is.
No, I dont believe he’s talking about avoiding rejection per se. He’s simply looking for more effective means to get what he wants. Its completely possible to be uninvested in rejection from women while at the same time seeking to improve your game and get less overall rejections.
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
Guys my point is that Males always have to make the first move, girls never does it, you can't say to a girl "do I like you?" and make her declare first because she will say no since she does not want to make the first move, girls always wait for the man who has to say "I like you" first and then wait for her respond, in rare ocasions girls take the first move. It is the man who has to go for the kiss first, it is always the man who has to take the first move to escalate the vibe. Therefore Men always give his power away at some point in the seduction process
When you approach indirect you will still have to go direct at some point and make a move (escalate the vibe). So you will still put the girl on the decision maker.
Everytime you escalate the vibe, you always give your power away both physical and verbal and the girl have all the power because she decides if reciprocate or reject, it is a decision you can not control.

We are in less power at some point. Every time you show clear interest you give your power away, every time you escalate physically you give your power away

As you guys know, the seduction process run like this

1. Male acts unsure or desinterested
2. Female shows interest (but never in a direct way)
3. Male makes the girl prove she is a good sexual partner for him
4. Male finally show sexual interest with SOI.

In Indirect Game the man gives his power away in step 4
In the case of Direct Game, the Man gives his power away from step 1

Why is this realization good for me?
Because I acept the fact that I will have to give my power away at some point in the process of seducing a girl be it at the opener or after the girl has shown enough IOIs, you will still have to be in the position of less power because you can not make the girl declare first.
I remember that Aaron Sleazy always says that in the Dating World Women are the ones who choose. They are the ones who finally give the last word. Men have the power at the beginning but not at the end. Women are finally the gatekeepers

This allow me to fear less about rejection and less fear about escalating the vibe since it is something We can not control. Therefore knowing this fact I stop overthinking wheather is the right time or wrong time to escalate the vibe. You stop trying to be perfect because it is something that is not 100% in the control of man.

This for me is like a milestone and it really causes profound changes in the way I see my reality. A fact that kills my ego. We are always exposed to Rejection. We can not avoid rejection, no matter how good you are attracting the girl you will still be in a position where she has to decide if she wanna escalate with you or not, so you can not avoid being exposed to rejection.
Worst fact than that is that

Girls never sacrifice their social value even though they have to lose a High Value Man. That is why men say that Girls seems to not give a fuck about you and they never have the feeling of oneiti that men experience.

At the other hand, the way of men are more difficult because they have to sacrifice his social value in order to get laids. Every time you approach a girl you put at risk your social value at some point. The only men who never sarifice his social value are those who gets approached by girls first, in this case are the girls who put their social value in risk
 
Last edited:

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,093
This for me is like a milestone and it really causes profound changes in the way I see my reality. A fact that kills my ego. We are always exposed to Rejection. We can not avoid rejection, no matter how good you are attracting the girl you will still be in a position where she has to decide if she wanna escalate with you or not, so you can not avoid being exposed to rejection

Well, then your title is misleading as it seemed to suggest that you were looking for ways to move interactions forward without investing…

Guys here were just trying to make you realize that is not how it works… which you already understand to a point.

I think you are still looking at it from a competitive perspective (how do I invest less than a woman?) and will be best served if you also put yourself in a woman shoes.

Yes, you have to expose your neck and risk rejection but what you are probably not seeing is that rejection for a woman is much harsher than for a man.
Also women invest a lot and put a lot of signals for guys to catch (many of them are ignored)… and “having” a good man is a much longer process for women… if she fucks with a guy she wants, chances are the guy is not her own just yet.

Comparing how much investment guys (as a group) give vs. women is an exercise of futility in my opinion.
Different kind of investments have different value for different people… this is not math, it’s negotiation.
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
It is not always about investing. You can invest a lot but if that investment do not damage your social value is actually low investment and that is what girls do. Girls can invest a lot subtetly but never will make the type of investment that can damage their social value, that type of investment would be showing direct interest verbally or physically so they wait for the man who has to risk that.
We value social value so much that almost every human behavior is related with that.

Social Value is a hughe human being anxiety. We are really worried about what other people will think of us (that is literally a worry for our social value).

It so important for us because in the evolutionary psychology the lowest value individual didnt eat, didnt have sex and didn't have protection from the group and ultimately he would die alone and marginated
rejection for a woman is much harsher than for a man.
I do not agree with that statement.
If you see the issue in terms of social value. Rejection damages the social value for both men and women equally, there is no difference. If you get rejection from a woman in front of your friends or your social circle you lose the social value and the same thing happen for a woman who gets rejected by a high value man. Because of this girls never take the first move because they have abundance and other high value male will come but we have to sacrifice the social value if we wanna get laid. It is unfair for the man. This forces the man to take action and risk everything while girl take the passive position and not sacrifice anything. This is probably a mechanism of the Evolution but in summary in the dating world men have it more difficult and hard than women.
Also women invest a lot and put a lot of signals for guys to catch (many of them are ignored)…
It is not about how much they invest but the type of invest they do. Their investment never damage their social value, they worry a lot about it and they never put it at risk. But men have to sacrifice it all the time. Therefore it is kinda like girls win the sex battle by default unless you never approach and let women declare herself to you (which is rare).
and “having” a good man is a much longer process for women… if she fucks with a guy she wants, chances are the guy is not her own just yet.
I agree but that does not make girls have it harder because that process of looking for a good man also makes to a lot of men not get laids at all
 
Last edited:

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,093
I do not agree with that statement.
If you see the issue in terms of social value. Rejection damages the social value for both men and women equally, there is no difference. If you get rejection from a woman in front of your friends or your social circle you lose the social value and the same thing happen for a woman who gets rejected by a high value man. Because of this girls never take the first move because they have abundance and other high value male will come but we have to sacrifice the social value if we wanna get laid. It is unfair for the man. This forces the man to take action and risk everything while girl take the passive position and not sacrifice anything. This is probably a mechanism of the Evolution but in summary in the dating world men have it more difficult and hard than women.

Ask yourself, who is more reliant on social value to live a successful life? A man or a woman?

If a girl rejects you and then you go and hit on another, you will be called promiscuous.
Who is more negatively affected by being labeled promiscuous? A man or a woman?

No, you are not risking the same a woman is risking.

You’re making all these theories because you are thinking of women as “men with boobs”.
Women feel different things, value different things, risk different things and are looking for different things than men

This “abundance” you talk about (abundance of sex) is much less valuable to girls, specially high value girls, than it is for you.
I can see from your post that you are pretty well versed in seduction… but the way you prioritize value is making you hit a ceiling… next step is focus on understanding women and accept all natural unbalances in seduction.

Food for the thought:





It is not about how much they invest but the type of invest they do. Their investment never damage their social value, they worry a lot about it and they never put it at risk. But men have to sacrifice it all the time. Therefore it is kinda like girls win the sex battle by default unless you never approach and let women declare herself to you (which is rare).

Because a hit to your reputation is much smaller than a hit to her reputation.

Also, YOU ARE NOT IN A SEX BATTLE WITH WOMEN.

Women are your partners, not your enemies.
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
Also, YOU ARE NOT IN A SEX BATTLE WITH WOMEN.

Women are your partners, not your enemies
You can have a mind that there is no sex battle, that is good, it helps you in your journey because it is positive but it is not necessarly true. Sex battle is a true thing, the same way there is a huge competition among men to get the more beautiful woman and among women to get the best man. Evidence of that is everywhere and it happen all the time. Women manipulate men and Men manipulate women.

No, you are not risking the same a woman is risking.
We both ultimately risk the social value, the consequences of losing the social value may differ but both consequences are bad for both
Have you thought why rejection hurts so much? It hurts so much because your social value is at risk and your brain unconsciously know (from the past) that it means risk of death. Women feel it the same. The feeling is the same. For women it would means less protection, less resources, living a hard life and having low value children that won't survive.
Ask yourself, who is more reliant on social value to live a successful life? A man or a woman?
+
Who is more negatively affected by being labeled promiscuous? A man or a woman?
Yes, but that possibility only happens to a man who has taken a hard journey and who has risked his life a lot.
The hope for men of this harsh truth is that despite we are having it harder and unfair in the dating world, we are fucking warriors. We are not passive as women, we take action, we can lose our social value and risk death (as in the past) but we also can do something about it before it is too late, we can go for another group and we can build our value again. We are fucking creator. We have emotional strength to lose everything and start again. We can run, we can fight. Therefore I think that we both experiment losing the social value the same way, it is hard for both but the different between men and women is that we can do something about it. We can change the tribu or create one but girls depend from males to be accepted. The fact that we have it harder and unfair, it is definitely but we have hope. The hope that if we do something about it (which would means taking action) we can compensate the unfair dynamic.
 
Last edited:

José enrique

Rookie
Rookie
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Messages
8
Location
Colombia
The only way to give up all your power by showing interest is if you ask her for a romantic relationship without her being very sure of you or interested romantically/sexually.

Don't complicate yourself... You can go direct and still not be needy there are many ways:

Opener Implied Compliment (credits Ross Jeffries)....

Indirect - Direct : Chase

Genuine Compliment (style, vibe, walk, hairstyle/hair, makeup)

Actually a push pull could start things rolling ... Example:
She : looks at you
You: Don't look at me like that... (push)
You're throwing me off (pull). [ credit to me. I used to be my favorite opener at the gym] with very good answers ;)

And flirt/joke... by going to bring fun you are not giving away power on the contrary you are bringing something that they value. The humor/fun and laughter....

When you recognize your value. And you don't do something to seek approval or validation from others you relax you can flow and say anything following the maxim ( don't reveal your romantic/sexual feelings) without knowing she is sure she wants the same or is interested too.. that's why it's best not to be too romantic and sexual at first especially if she hasn't scanned you and you detect signs of interest she throws at you to approach her... it's best to keep a social and flirty vibe at first and then escalate to a sexual vibe.. that's how most people meet....

So forget about giving away your power... it's like say Hugh hefner if he went to a friends party and a girl turned him down there was he going to stop being a man of value or be affected by that knowing he has many other options at home behind him.....

I think. That your problem is not how to show your intentions and when. Rather it is that you try to avoid a girl from pursuing you with low value and as a needy guy.. probably because you don't know many girls and you have few options and you overemphasize everything and think that you will never be rejected because it would hurt your ego.. and that only happens when you don't take much action....

For example saying that direct play makes you lose all your power or get rejected is always absurd... there are times and contexts and others not to use it for example in a dating app almost always the best is to open direct or show interest in any way that captures attention and is witty/fun (humor/jokes.. intrigue +joke, implied compliment, genuine compliment. Push pull)...

So think if you think saying something that comes to mind makes you feel like you are needy or of low value.. the problem may not only be your opener and delivery but also your mindset and behavior.

And the indirect opener works for all contexts. But why would you want to be indirect and not show your intentions to a girl who gives you subtle signs of interest and pre-approach. It doesn't make sense
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,093
@Niwoor222 at this point, I think we are talking past each other.
You’re too set on your ways to interpret everything from a “value” perspective… which for me honestly feels really noobish.

I’ll just say, you have already walked 50% of the way and this line of thinking will have you stuck from now on.
What took you here won’t take you any further.

Next steps for you:
- Learn about attainability and apply it
- Accept that life looks pretty different from the perspective of women and work to understand them

Do it… or don’t.
You get to choose if you want to be right or successful.
It’s your call.
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
The only way to give up all your power by showing interest is if you ask her for a romantic relationship without her being very sure of you or interested romantically/sexually
How would you know with 100% of certainty that a girl will say "I like you too" when you say to her "you know what, I like you"?
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
The only way to give up all your power by showing interest is if you ask her for a romantic relationship without her being very sure of you or interested romantically/sexually
You are always giving her the chance to say "but I don't feel the same for you, sorry"
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
The only way to give up all your power by showing interest is if you ask her for a romantic relationship without her being very sure of you or interested romantically/sexually
Everytime a girl is non compliant to your request you lose value. I remember Tom Torero say: once you pull the trigger if she rejects it is very hard to recover
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
4,545
There's a kind of thinking here about value / value-loss that is really about fear of social embarrassment you see a lot in this space.

However, the thinking is wrong at the root of it, with multiple misconceptions about:

  1. What value actually is and
  2. How other people assess it, both the girl you're with and anyone else watching you

New article up addressing this way of thinking about things here:


Hope it's helpful.

Chase
 

Niwoor222

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 21, 2021
Messages
36
Thanks for your post @Chase buddy!. It was really interesting the fact that you felt really a loser many times in your past.

However I wanna clarify my thoughts a bit because I like to be as objective as possible. I am a man of science. I am not an idealistic person.

My post do not means "Don't take massive Action" instead it motivates to take more action.
This allow me to fear less about rejection and less fear about escalating the vibe since it is something We can not control. Therefore knowing this fact I stop overthinking wheather is the right time or wrong time to escalate the vibe. You stop trying to be perfect because it is something that is not 100% in the control of man.

My post is about bringing a fact to life or to the awareness.

I agree with you that taking risks is a quality that have social value but I also think that social value is not a black and white variable.

Social value is the value that people give to you. It is not the value that you give to yourself which can be completely unproportional to the social value that people give to you. Ultimately those social values are rooted in survival and replication values while the value you give to yourself can be rooted in idealistic principles.

Taking Risks is of value but Results have more value. Therefore, in a group of friends, the male who have more success with girls is the one with the highest value. Taking Risk is not a big thing compared to the value of getting results.

Taking risks is not by any means the key to success.

In a group of friends, each member have an amount of value that is proportional to his results. The loser who does not get results and does not take action has obviously less value than the loser who does not get laids but take action, but this last, no matter how much action he takes and how much he risks he will never has more value than the male who gets results because at the end, results dictates value.

Let's say that you seem like a very cool and charismatic alpha male well dressed dude that all your friends and people get the first impression that you have a lot of girls in your life and that any hot girl would like to be your girlfriend. Maybe some of them feel envy towards you secretly. One day you invite some of those friends to a bar with you to play billiard, you see an HB7 and you approach her but she is desinterested and give you the "fuck off", your friends didnt hear but they indirectly realized you approached a girl and they also saw that the girl gave you the "fuck off". At that particular moment your value have droped in the eyes of your friends and all the people around. All your friends had the idea that you were the guy who HB9 and HB10 chase you but never thought that you were rejected by HB7. People tend to generalize and they now think that you don't even get HB7. The whole idea of you being really cool and a badass has broken. Unless you get an HB9 or HB10 and prove to your friends you are that cool guy they thought you were at the beginning there is no way to recover the amount of value these people were giving you. Maybe you are really that cool person they thought you were but one insignificant rejection like that can change the whole story of you in the eyes of other people. People never see the real you. They always believe what they see and many times those situational judgments are wrong.

Value is fuzzy as that and can change as fast as that.

We don't want to get rejected because we do not want to lose the amount of social value we have in a group, plus we do not want to lose the amount of social value we give to ourselves because our self steem suffer the consequences.

Translate with your browser
https://www.muyinteresante.es/ciencia/preguntas-respuestas/por-que-solemos-juzgar-tan-
rapido-a-los-demas-501490256547/amp.

Social embarrassment is the subjective sensation of losing your value.
Losing social value is the fact and social embarrassment is the conscious feeling of the fact. An analogy is: if you prick your finger, the tissue damage is the fact and pain is the conscious sensation of the fact.
 
Last edited:

Fluxcapacitor

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
754
@Niwoor222 dude! You're greatly over thinking this and if your friends value you less because you've been rejected by some girl you've got shit friends... I've been rejected in front of my friends, they build me up, they're confused why she's let go such a cool dude. My friends have been rejected in front of me, I don't see them as less, I'll build them up! They had the ball's to go for what they want.

It's all about how you view things. If you're un phased by the rejection you look cool. My friends thought I got a girl's number because I walked away so confidently, I had to tell them that she wasn't interested, I could have lied and they'd have never known but who would I be fooling?

We're not bothered by rejection, we laugh it off. Handle rejection well and you look cool to everyone who knows. Even with your heavy view on value, you can gain value in a loss if you handle it well enough. You might even turn her perception of you around. Who is this confident dude who's not bothered that I rejected him? Maybe I've assessed him wrong?!?
 

Skjöldr

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
858
it's nonsense.
"if you show intent you give your 'power' away and the girl loses respect for you" huh? let me translate that:
"i'm low value and if this high value girl finds out that all my hand reading and library speeches is a means to the end of fucking her, she will get disgusted and blow me out"
^very unhealthy mental frame/bad inner game

when i see a beautiful girl and i tell her "hello i know this is random, but you were walking past me and i couldn't help but notice how you were bouncing in your blue dress and i thought you were so adorable i had to come meet you" my vibe and subcommunications tell her "i assume attraction. i am worthy of you. i want you. i want to get to know you to see if you are nice and interesting person besides your looks. im gonna see if you are gonna waste my time or not. if so, im gonna walk away. if not, let's make magic happen"

you wanna talk to a girl man to woman. she needs to feel the SEX. you dont wanna talk to her man (you) to man (her) and you definitely dont wanna talk to her woman (you) to woman (her). keep it man (you) to woman (her).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top