FR

[Atlas]

Hey boys, I just recently posted a question in the General Boards that gave a vague explanation of this, but I felt the need to explain it further in order to help others answer that question as well as further understand some things myself.

The Set Up
So, approximately 2 weeks or so ago I was swiping around on Tinder and found a girl who's bio was "add me on Snapchat at xxxxx". A lot of girls do this, and some times I just add them for fun, but this girl was really cute and part of the same organization as me in school. I added her and made some jokes like "wow your snap score is only xxx thousand? You have to up your game" etc. She was semi receptive and I'd hit her up occasionally and sometimes she'd respond to my story with a funny comment or something. Things took off after she actually matched with me on Tinder and we had a brief convo about some pointless things. I figured she was interested because everything I said she put "hahahaha" to. If that wasn't a massive green light then idk what is. So I said "We should meet up some time soon" and she agreed. After some deliberation we agreed on a location but when the day came, she kept changing times around and was being really fickle about it. I almost cancelled because it was getting pretty ridiculous, so after the 3rd change I said "if you change one more time, I'm not going". So we settled on a time and location finally, and then we met up and she said she would explain the numerous time changes.

The Date
She texted me when she got to the location, and I arrived a few minutes later pulling in the parking spot right next to her. She didn't notice at first, which was funny so I got out of my car and walked around the front and was just about to knock on her window when she looked up. I smiled and motioned with my hand for her to get out. When she got out of the car, she threw me off guard because she immediately commented about how flustered she was because of how busy she was earlier that day, but to me it sounded like an excuse for why she was so nervous about meeting me. So we got some ice cream, and I paid of course because its just what I like to do, and we took a seat. She was pretty shy and wasn't very proficient with words. She mumbled a lot, and I couldn't tell if that was because she had braces or if she was not confident in herself but it was hard to understand her. I'm a pretty good conversationalist and travel a decent amount, so I just took the brunt of the conversation on myself and did my best to make it interesting. It wasn't super interesting, it was mostly just standard deep diving stuff. This lasted about 20 minutes and I asked her what she was doing later. She gave some really weak and excuse and I invited her to come watch a movie at my place. She agreed, but said she had to travel back home from college the next day and asked me to help her grab laundry from her room. If her roommates weren't there then this might have been a good chance to get a little flirty with my touch, but her roommates were there and I wasn't trying to make her uncomfortable.

My Place
After I helped her load her laundry and some other small things into her car, I drove her to my place. At my place, I led her into my room and told her to hop on my bed while I went to the bathroom. I came back from the bathroom, and I threw on Knight and Day (pretty good date movie), which is a romantic/action/comedy movie that I really enjoy. I leaned on a pillow against the back of my bed and asked her why she was being so shy and pulled her closer to me. She was really touchy and wrapped her self on me like a pretzel. She put her head on my chest and put her legs across mine basically making contact with every part of her body she could. After about 20 mins, I told her she looked cute and tried to kiss her, to which she turned her head. We kept watching the movie with intermittent conversation, just enjoying each others company, although I tried about 2 more times and got rejected twice with more kisses. I don't know why I was so damn insistent with it, but I kept trying and she kept rejecting. She tried tickling me once though after my stomach made a grumbling noise, and I tickled her back which turned into a little wrestling match between us and I might've been a little bit too aggressive. I wasnt trying to be, and it wasn't like I assaulted her or anything but after we were done she made a comment about it and I apologized. I don't think it was a big deal to her though, because she accepted my apology in stride. We finished the movie, and inexplicably towards the end she sat up and didn't really seem like she wanted much to do with me. She didn't really seem interested myself or the movie and declined my invitations to lean back and watch the movie with me. This girl was definitely positioning herself hard as a girlfriend candidate though. At one point she even said "so why does baby have a Tinder". Super cringy, but that is no shit exactly how she said it. I wasn't kidding when I said she wasn't a fantastic wordsmith despite the fact she was of no ethnic diversity lol. Eventually she said her friends were at my place to pick her up, and she gave me a really tight hug and I walked her to my door and she left.

The Aftermath
So she left and the next day in the afternoon I shot her a message through snapchat because I honestly couldn't stop thinking about her. She had a really nice smelling perfume on when she hung out with me and it was imbedded into my sheets, which for some reason I couldn't get out of my head. Anyways, I said something to the effect of "hey, I had a fun time getting to know you last night. I feel like I came off a little too strong last night and that wasn't my intention. Come on a date with me later this week so I can make it up to you (winking face)." I deliberated over this message a decent amount before I sent it because I thought it sounded kinda weak, but I was just trying to be transparent. She responded with something that through me off guard. She said "Oh ok I didn't know that was your intention. I'm sorry". I was confused as fuck, and to be honest I still am, as to what that even means. So, I wanted to make sure we were all on the same page and sent this: "I just want to make sure we're on the same page. I feel like maybe you thought that I only wanted sex or something. I'm just looking for a relationship and I feel like I did a bad job of conveying that last night." And then she responded with "I didn't feel that way at all".

So, I really can't tell how I feel about that conversation but I don't think it was a good one lol. The date was over the weekend, so its been a few days, but we've been snap chatting sparingly usually with her giving curt one or two word responses with me alway leaving her on read at the end of the conversation. I've been following the basics, of course, like not double texting etc. I told her to let me know when she is free, and she said that she'll look at her schedule and figure it out. I have no idea if she actually will or not, but I kinda doubt it. I might follow up with her in a day or so and ask if she's free at all. I doubt this will go anywhere and I'm kinda sad about it because she was so stupidly into me. Part of me thinks that she might just be playing hard to get and saving face because she threw herself so hard at me. If so, that would be weird, because I'm kinda doing the same thing. Either way, I'm curious to what everyone's thoughts on this might be. I really like this girl and kinda don't want to fuck it up any more than I might have already.

 

[foggy]

atlas, holy moly, first let me tell u that i know the pain you're feeling bro

but to me it sounded like an excuse for why she was so nervous about meeting me.

She was pretty shy and wasn't very proficient with words. She mumbled a lot, and I couldn't tell if that was because she had braces or if she was not confident in herself but it was hard to understand her

If she's shy and acting like this, she definitely likes you. You're high value to her, and your attainability is low.

You mentioned she was acting all girlfriend-y and gave pretty weak resistance, which makes me suspect that she doesn't have a lot of experience with guys...and if she's not experienced with guys, then it's a possibility she's not exactly very socially aware either and doesn't have a strong understanding of relationship dynamics.

After about 20 mins, I told her she looked cute and tried to kiss her, to which she turned her head. We kept watching the movie with intermittent conversation, just enjoying each others company, although I tried about 2 more times and got rejected twice with more kisses. I don't know why I was so damn insistent with it, but I kept trying and she kept rejecting.

Huh, well if she threw you in the boyfriend zone, and is inexperienced with guys, then this would explain the resistance. Another speculation is that you didn't build enough comfort leading up to this moment, which is really important given how she views you. She's tryinga take some of the power back.

We finished the movie, and inexplicably towards the end she sat up and didn't really seem like she wanted much to do with me. She didn't really seem interested myself or the movie and declined my invitations to lean back and watch the movie with me.

Would you describe her behavior as cold and distant? If so, thats auto-rejection, and the root cause is that you didn't build enough comfort

So she left and the next day in the afternoon I shot her a message through snapchat because I honestly couldn't stop thinking about her. She had a really nice smelling perfume on when she hung out with me and it was imbedded into my sheets, which for some reason I couldn't get out of my head.

I HATE when this happens

Anyways, I said something to the effect of "hey, I had a fun time getting to know you last night. I feel like I came off a little too strong last night and that wasn't my intention. Come on a date with me later this week so I can make it up to you (winking face)."

She said "Oh ok I didn't know that was your intention. I'm sorry". I was confused as fuck, and to be honest I still am, as to what that even means. So, I wanted to make sure we were all on the same page and sent this: "I just want to make sure we're on the same page. I feel like maybe you thought that I only wanted sex or something. I'm just looking for a relationship and I feel like I did a bad job of conveying that last night." And then she responded with "I didn't feel that way at all".

Bro, in the past there's been three situations where I've been over-invested in a girl and couldn't stop thinking about them. 2 of the girls, i sent ridiculously similar texts to and it drove them away. The third girl, i was planning on sending her similar texts, but ultimately decided against it and just played it cool, which ended up working in my favor.

Keep in mind that this girl is a little inexperienced, so she was probably really confused as well and doesn't know how to play it.

If it is true that you didn't build enough comfort, then by texting her this, you make yourself look like you "dont get it" (mismatch in frames), and it makes you look chasey which drives her away.

I really like this girl and kinda don't want to fuck it up any more than I might have already.

I know it's hard, but play it cool, give her some space and wait to see if she'll reinitiate contact. Another girl who will be even more into u is around the corner. Go and find her to get your thoughts off this girl

 

[Atlas]

Hey brother, thanks for the reply! But yeah, I definitely felt like my value might have been disproportionately high to hers. Not in the way that I'm a significantly better individual, but in the way that she thinks I am. It's funny talking to girls like this though, girls who are socially inept. The only thing I can liken it to is if you were to get into a fight with someone. If you were an individual with a decent amount of experience fighting an individual with a decent amount of experience then its actually easier vice fighting someone who has no experience at all. And I've boxed for a while so I can speak on this with some authority, but it's because you can more easily predict and understand the more experienced persons moves. The newbie is almost like a wild card, and you can't counter someone who's techniques you have no frame of reference to, if that makes sense. They're just unpredictable, and that's how I feel with this girl.

Auto rejection might definitely be a possibility, and I also agree with the sentiment that waiting it out for her to make a move is my best option. I don't believe persisting will work because in correlation with my "high value frame" it would create a bunch of cognitive dissonance. I have a date scheduled with another girl for Tuesday though, so I'm working on getting my mind off of her. Thanks again for the advice and insight. I really appreciate it!

-Atlas

 

[ThePhoenix]

From your other thread:

ThePhoenix, I draw a lot of blanks when it comes to figuring out date ideas. I just like ice cream because it's close to where I live and cheap, but I have experimented with things like mini golf before. The movie date might be hindering me, like I said I just really suck with date ideas.

I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with going for ice cream as a date. You could even just do coffee. I'd generally avoid fun stuff like mini golf... it may communicate that you don't "get it". It's important to realize that on some level she wants to end up in your bedroom, and really, the date is just a formality so she doesn't feel like a total slut, and also gives you a chance to make a connection with her. The more distracting the date itself is, the harder it is to make that connection.

My real concern was the movie creating a distraction that makes it harder to talk with her more and make more of a connection. You did talk during the movie, so maybe it didn't do that as badly as it would have with someone with my attention span for movies, lol, but perhaps you could have talked more if not for the movie?

As for excuses to get her home, it's just that, an excuse. Nothing more. Seppuku likes to use a music play list. Good because it's not too distracting! I've used creative works which are actually distracting but like I said in the other thread, I'll just not show her right away. I have a buddy who would get girls over to play Monopoly. You could use a fish tank or stamp collection or just about anything. The excuse is not that important, it's basically just a way to defuse the rational part of her mind that would otherwise become afraid that she is being a slut.

...I paid of course because its just what I like to do...

Well, it's just ice cream, so it may not be so bad since it's cheap, especially if you're in a much higher income bracket than her, but in general this is not a useful attitude. You're basically creating a mental frame for yourself in which she would be doing you a favour by having sex with you and so you must do her favours if you expect to get sex. This is a bad way of thinking.

It is much better to consider that she's going to enjoy the sex at least as much as you if not more (women are very sexual and are generally considered capable of stronger/longer/more orgasms), so you certainly don't need to be doing anything more for her. I know that's a hard thing to wrap the mind around, because we are taught by society that women are these chaste angels who don't enjoy sex and are difficult to get into bed and therefore must be supplicated to. Our biggest challenge is to deprogram ourselves of this way of thinking!

I can say that dates where I paid, always had poor outcomes as compared to those where we split, or better yet, she paid.


I also agree with fog and others that you should've built more of a connection. More comfort. Get her to talk about herself more.

"hey, I had a fun time getting to know you last night. I feel like I came off a little too strong last night and that wasn't my intention. Come on a date with me later this week so I can make it up to you (winking face)."

...

"I just want to make sure we're on the same page. I feel like maybe you thought that I only wanted sex or something. I'm just looking for a relationship and I feel like I did a bad job of conveying that last night."

No offense at all, but reading these made me cringe. I think we've all been there, where we send some super-weak, unattractive shit to a girl, because our feelings got in the way of rationally thinking about what kind of frame we're communicating. When you write something like this, don't press Send, just go off and do something else .. that's spared me at least once.

To me, it reads as very needy and apologetic. You're basically apologizing for having sexual desires - an extremely bad frame! You're also openly relationship-seeking, and this is really fundamentally contrary to the way you should be interacting with women. It's the woman's job to secure a relationship. A male who automatically wants a relationship is a lame duck. This is completely unattractive.

I'm wondering if your repeated failures to get to sex, as you mentioned in the other thread, comes from a failure to really accept and embrace female sexuality and promiscuity. It's a really tricky thing to adjust your mind to, because women are like mirrors, so if you expect them to be difficult about sex, they will be, and this in turn makes it hard to view them as sexual creatures. If you still have on some level the internalized belief that you must give her a relationship to get sex, then she's going to give you a really hard time and slow game you.

Well, that's $0.02 from someone still learning himself!

Phoenix

 

[Atlas]

Hey ThePheonix, always appreciate constructive criticisms. I'm still working on balancing the whole connection thing haha. I felt like I have decent connections with girls when I pull them, but I could understand why maybe they don't feel that way. I definitely agree with the whole movie as an excuse thing for sure. I would never say "Hey, lets go to my place and have sex!" because that would just be stupid.

Despite the fact that I'm young, I feel like I have more old fashioned beliefs for things like paying on dates. If she sucked or was a gigantic bitch then I'd make her pay her part for sure but it just seems like the gentlemanly and chivalrous thing to do. I get that among people on GC that it might not be a popular view, but it's just how I like to do things. It might help me not to pay, as you said, because it would increase her investment in me (hence her attraction) but I'll take the L on that front. I do fully understand that girls aren't perfect little angels though. I can understand why you might think that I wouldn't, but I definitely do. Probably why I get fucked (not in the good way) by moving too fast girls and "not building a connection" haha. I realize that she wants sex equally as much as myself, if not more, so I figure why bother with the boring stuff like connection.

As far as my texts coming off as needy, I don't think they did. I think if I worded them slightly differently then they would have. I value transparency among people I spend my time with and I was just being honest with how I felt. I'm brutally honest with almost everyone I meet, for better or worse. I never apologized for having sexual desires, I apologized for the way in which I expressed them. I'll work on not looking needy though, thanks. I appreciate the advice

-Atlas

 

[foggy]

As far as my texts coming off as needy, I don't think they did. I think if I worded them slightly differently then they would have.

Would you have texted her the same stuff if you were operating from abundance mentality?

 

[ThePhoenix]

I definitely agree with the whole movie as an excuse thing for sure. I would never say "Hey, lets go to my place and have sex!" because that would just be stupid.

Hahaha, of course! Well, I was more just suggesting that you could perhaps try to play with excuses other than a movie, which might ideally make it a little easier to talk with her more when she is back home, which might in turn help you with the connection issue. I don't know if the movie really distracted from conversation, that's just a guess based on how I'm sure a movie would have affected me personally.

...I feel like I have more old fashioned beliefs for things like paying on dates. If she sucked or was a gigantic bitch then I'd make her pay her part for sure but it just seems like the gentlemanly and chivalrous thing to do. I get that among people on GC that it might not be a popular view, but it's just how I like to do things. It might help me not to pay, as you said, because it would increase her investment in me (hence her attraction) but I'll take the L on that front.

Well, there is the effect which paying or not paying has on her, but I think a bigger concern would be the underlying mentality it is coming from.

Ultimately, you believe in old fashioned ideals because someone (probably a collective) taught you these. But traditional values generally don't stem from any absolute truth. Often they were imposed by particular historical groups which sought control or advantage, and then over time the origins became obscured to the point that nobody even knows where they came from, they are simply accepted. Personally, I would not adhere to something arbitrarily, especially if it weakens me; I would need first to see some kind of rational basis for it.

If I was to ask you for an actual, rational explanation of exactly why one of two genders should always be the one who foots the cost of an outing between two human beings contemplating sexual relations, I suspect that you couldn't give me one.

A lot of game is deconstructing belief systems which, for most anyone who has to frequent web sites like this one, start out dysfunctional.

Of course, it's up to you how much you'll allow yourself to challenge and revise your beliefs to be more compatible with the realities of human sexuality. In my own experience, letting go of certain values I had held steadfastly, actually turned out to be liberating, as much as I would not have viewed it as such from within the confines of those beliefs.

I value transparency among people I spend my time with and I was just being honest with how I felt. I'm brutally honest with almost everyone I meet, for better or worse.

Understandable. I'd certainly never advocate lying to a woman (not materially, anyway). I do, however, think that there are times when it's really unhelpful (to the both of you) to disclose every last thing going through your head, especially when you may still need to better refine just what those things are in the first place!

As an extreme example, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell a girl, "come back to my place, I want to fuck your brains out." But if, truly, you wanted to be brutally honest, that's what you should be telling her. But obviously that's not a disclosure that's going to help anybody.

Cheers,
Phoenix