FR 2 dates - need help diagnosing my blind spots

[snipefield]

Going to write these ones up real quick - really want to get feedback from the community because I'm feeling a bit demotivated.

Date 1

Got a number off this girl on the street on Monday. Call her Cathy. She was very cheerful and responsive right from the get-go. Knew had to set up date fast so invited her for tea on Wednesday. Met up at a coffeeshop, she paid for her own coffee. I made sure to get her to talk by asking pointed questions. She was a very eloquent and intelligent lady, which I complimented her on. Logistics @ coffee shop were not good, we sat across from each other at a table. My eye contact was fairly good. I did manage to get a bit of touch in by taking holding her wrist when she had her hands up on the table.

Decided to play the 10 questions game to keep things interesting. Asked her things like:

- What's the scariest thing you've done?
- What was your childhood like?
- Tell me about when you first got drunk?

I had a plan to bounce her soon because in the past I've lingered in coffee shops for way too long. I excused myself to go to the bathroom and called up an Uber. When I came out she was chitter-chattering and I had to interrupt her:

me: Cathy, let's get outta here. Let's go on an adventure.

Cathy: {worried look on face} Where are we going?

me: I want to show you my guitar we're going to my place {face-palm, I've read many a post on here recommending never to use those words!!}

Cathy: Oh {noticeable negative expression}, I don't feel comfortable going to your home.

me: Ok, no worries, let's go for a walk.

As we were walking out, she continued the questions:

Cathy: So, what kind of relationship are you looking for?

me: Well, I'm open to longer term relationships if the right person comes around but right now I am not looking for serious relationships.

Cathy: Well, I'm very thankful that you're upfront with me because most guys do a song and dance and it's unclear what they want. I'm at this stage in my life where I actually think about my eggs and the time ticking away and I'm really looking for a long-term partner.

This got to me emotionally because I could see she was genuine and could sympathize with her situation. At that point, I just didn't feel like gaming her. It's almost like she gamed me. On the flip side, this girl seemed like she would make a good girlfriend, but even then, according to the wisdom on GC, the surest path would be just to seduce her.

We sat at a nice park after the coffeeshop and actually had a great conversation - truthfully I seldom have these with women because I find most women I meet boring once you get past a certain level of novelty. And I actually vocalized my feelings to her:

me: Cathy, you make me conflicted. Because on the one hand you're intelligent and cute, but on the other hand, I could see you're a good person, and I wouldn't want to hurt you

Then I mentioned to her that I do believe a guy and a girl could be friends - I had to actually assess it and told her I would be open to that. Doesn't seem she was interested in that, cause I haven't heard from her. Mistake at end was letting her end it - she said she had to go. I got caught up in just chilling that I forgot that in the very least I should end it leaving her thinking that she may want to see me again. Anyways, no contact since then.

I was bummed about this one because she was pretty, had a good head on her shoulders and was eloquent - a rarity these days.

Date 2
Yesterday, got a text out of the blue who I had met a couple of weeks ago and who had ignored my texts subsequently. She wrote she was busy before. I immediately invited her out.

She was late to the coffeeshop we had agreed to meet at, but I didn't want to sit there anyways. I decided to roam around and then saw her waiting for the light. She crossed, we greeted each other and then immediately started to cross another intersection. The light was turning red. I extended my hand for her to give it to me so I could rush us across the intersection, but she didn't bite. We walked along for a bit and then popped into a bar I know.

We sat at the bar and she paid for both drinks. She was wearing a pretty sexy dress / one-piece. I did get some incidental touching in. My MO was not to be too animated, kind of to act a bit bored. I decided to just play the same questions game with her. She was from another country and actually didn't understand some of the questions. Questions I asked her

- Tell me about the hardest thing you've done
- What makes you happy (very wishy-washy answer from her)
- What's your favorite dish to make from your country

Nothing really too special. The one notable question she asked me was why I decided to come out with her. I said that she seemed interesting so I wanted to find out more.

No teasing on my part of her cause I thought she wouldn't understand.....

She downed her beer very quickly and I just sipped on mine. So about 20 minutes in, I told her we'll bounch, which surprised her a little bit. We got out and made a right in the direction of my house. She asked if I live in that direction (I said yes). She didn't directly ask me where we were going and I just let it be known that we're going for a walk. She was in heels so not the best, but she seemed OK walking. We walked onto a highway overpass, where there was a good view of the skyline. Then down some stairs back to street level. We crossed the intersection and here she said that she needed to meet her friend.

We were in a well-lit area. I said ok, and then realized that I just had to man-handle her. She was a bit ahead of me. I put my left hand on her shoulder and attempted to close in the distance with my right hand to kiss her neck, but she shuddered away. I looked at her in a funny way:

girl: I'm from {x country} We don't do that. I'm not that kind of girl. I just met up with you as a friend.

me: Relax please

girl: Come one let's go back up {motioning to go back up the stairs}

me: Let's just walk for a block or two more and then you can go back

girl: No my friend is waiting for me

me: Well I'm a busy guy as well so I have better things to do, too

girl: OK, goodbye (extending her hand}

me: I don't shake girls hands

girl: OK, take care then

me: See you.

I turn around and leave. Not sure exactly where i went wrong. She obviously wasn't comfortable yet, but may not have been comfortable later either way. I'm glad I just went for it - probably could have just been more forceful.... just need to get the balls.

Also, probably didn't ramp up the sexuality, but I did make sure to be bored and look her in the eyes and check out her body so that she would get the idea.

Look forward to your thoughts men.

 

[Smith]

Then I mentioned to her that I do believe a guy and a girl could be friends - I had to actually assess it and told her I would be open to that. Doesn't seem she was interested in that, cause I haven't heard from her. Mistake at end was letting her end it - she said she had to go. I got caught up in just chilling that I forgot that in the very least I should end it leaving her thinking that she may want to see me again. Anyways, no contact since then.

I was bummed about this one because she was pretty, had a good head on her shoulders and was eloquent - a rarity these days.

It sounds like you were friendzoning her....then you wanted her to see you again..so even I'm not sure what you want bro lol

For date 2, how was the overall vibe of the date? Fun, flirty? or did she seem bored? If she seems bored, you need to dial it up a little bit. Maybe talk about sex for a bit and see if she gets excited. The vibe was probably too platonic.

We crossed the intersection and here she said that she needed to meet her friend.

We were in a well-lit area. I said ok, and then realized that I just had to man-handle her. She was a bit ahead of me. I put my left hand on her shoulder and attempted to close in the distance with my right hand to kiss her neck, but she shuddered away. I looked at her in a funny way:

girl: I'm from {x country} We don't do that. I'm not that kind of girl. I just met up with you as a friend.

me: Relax please

girl: Come one let's go back up {motioning to go back up the stairs}

me: Let's just walk for a block or two more and then you can go back

girl: No my friend is waiting for me

me: Well I'm a busy guy as well so I have better things to do, too

girl: OK, goodbye (extending her hand}

me: I don't shake girls hands

girl: OK, take care then

me: See you.

You went for the pull so that's good. It's better than not trying. But this was a little uncalibrated. I'm guessing the vibe died down on the way to your place. You were probably too stuck in your head worrying about getting her to your place, and you forgot about how the girl's feeling. we all know she didn't need to meet her friends lol Her emotion changed. You panicked and made the mistake of going for a kiss when she just told you she wanted to leave. I've made that mistakes before a handful of times and it sucks. If you sense that your vibe is getting too serious and heavy....stop it. Stop taking it so seriously. Go back to being playful and offering value.

The best thing you can do when this happens again is to not let it happen again lol There are warning signs before a girl decides to leave. Is she comfortable? Is she enjoying your company? Is she rejecting your physical escalation? The thing is these signs must have been right in front of you before she told you she needed to go see her friends. Rejection happens gradually, not instantly unless you fk up big time. If she told you she's not comfortable going home with you yet. Then go to a second venue and have more fun then try again later. You have to make it a win-win for her. Think about it from her perspective, then you will know what to do. Don't make her feel like a slut. When you told her to "relax please", you're not addressing her concern. Still be glad you went for it and don't let this stop you from escalating next time, but you need to back off if a girl tells you she's not comfortable. Just say "oops sorry naughty naughty" then laugh it off and keep talking. She needs to know you won't get butthurt if she rejects you. she needs to know you won't do anything that will make her feel uncomfortable. She is going home with you! she wants to feel safe brother. So I think the thing to work on are be more man-to-woman and be more calibrated and understanding from the girl's perspective. Hope this helps man =) There's a lot to learn from here, but you'll do great next time!

 

[snipefield]

Hey Smith, thanks for the response.

Regarding the vibe, it seemed neutral  to me - neither sexual nor fun nor boring, which probably means that it was boring.  My thinking has recently been: I'll stay quiet with bored look, ask them questions, tell stories where appropriate but otherwise not do anything special in order  to be relaxed.  

Regarding talking about sexual  things, I've read on gc that it doesnt put the girl in the right frame of mind.  Can you give a specific example of how you'd go about doing that.  

Your analysis of what happened when I went for the kiss and aftermath is spot on.  Actually, I was pretty tired and lost sight of the fact that the girl doesn't owe me anything.  I felt  entitled. I felt like she already came out, so just  40 minutes should be enough for her.

Going to another venue would have been smart.  The one thing that would make me reluctant is that the venues where we would be forced to have proximity to each other are further away from my house than where we already were.

I guess the lesson from this is that it's ok to  take it one step at a time and not worry about how I'll pull her before she's ready.  If necessary, it's ok to extend to  another date.  What do you think?

Regarding the first date, it actually hurt because I shared myself with this person and thought that she could potentially become a friend.......but I think she didnt buy it due to being  in full-on  husband search mode.

 

[Smith]

Regarding the vibe, it seemed neutral to me - neither sexual nor fun nor boring, which probably means that it was boring. My thinking has recently been: I'll stay quiet with bored look, ask them questions, tell stories where appropriate but otherwise not do anything special in order to be relaxed.

If she seems bored, time to spike it up, but without being an entertainer. I think of it as dialing up your intent by being flirty and physical.

Regarding talking about sexual things, I've read on gc that it doesnt put the girl in the right frame of mind.

where? lol I'm not up to date with the articles, but I think Alex uses sex talk a lot. It's how you talk about sex that matters. Talk about it as casually as you can, like you're talking about the weather. You can start by asking her about her first kiss, her first crush then escalate to her first time having sex...etc. and share your own experience. You can also use hypothetical scenarios that puts sex on her mind, which I find very fun to play with. check out Julien's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ban1-umBhMI

Going to another venue would have been smart. The one thing that would make me reluctant is that the venues where we would be forced to have proximity to each other are further away from my house than where we already were.

Plan your venues smarter next time. start from the furthest one if you have to. Not all girls will be ready for sex after a couple of hours. You need to be patient.

 

[Bboy100]

Your going through a phase I had last year. You're trying to force things when they aren't there. You're so worried about moving fast, that you're completely forgetting to calibrate to the situation. GC advocates moving fast because most guys wait WAAAY too long. Like, waay longer than they need to. Then the girl loses attraction. You're doing the opposite. You're so worried about "moving fast" that you don't pay attention to the girl's cues at all and just insist on going to your place. Regardless of what's going on. This doesn't work. You might get somewhere with her as shown by these dates, but you'll almost never seal the deal by doing what you're doing. And even if you do, she's likely to have buyers remorse. I have personal experience with all this.

Instead, I'd just relax and focus on enjoying the time you spend with these girls. Pay attention to their comfort levels, body language, and how open they seem to moving things forward. When a girl doesn't like what you're doing, its usually pretty obvious via her body language. When she doesn't want to move things forward, that's not always a "test". And persisting forever and ever isn't usually the way to go. So if they decline compliance, address their objections in a relaxed way. If that doesn't work, propose an alternative that she will agree to (that way you won't get negative compliance). This shows empathy, courage, dominance/leadership and non-neediness all at once.

me: Well I'm a busy guy as well so I have better things to do, too

girl: OK, goodbye (extending her hand}

me: I don't shake girls hands

girl: OK, take care then

me: See you.

Also, this sounds very bitter. "I have better things to do" sounds like you're telling her she's not even worth another two hours of your time. If she didn't think so before, now she's sure you don't give a single fuck about her. And why don't you shake girls hands? What are you trying to prove?

Overall, I'd say that this is a phase most of us go through. If you're still building up your courage, then I'd say keep doing this. But if you think you have the balls to do anything you want with girls (i.e. you don't hesitate to escalate, pull etc.) then I'd tone this all down and pay more attention to what her nonverbals are telling you rather than just trying to pressure her into going back to your place.

Just keep at it and you'll get there soon. I promise

 

[snipefield]

@Smith, I was talking about this article by Chase
https://www.girlschase.com/content/sexual-tension-7-ways-make-women-excited-and-randy.

However, a commenter on Alek's article about good sex talk asks exactly about this - what the distinction is between the sex talk Chase was referring to he didn't have success with and the one Alek uses:
https://www.girlschase.com/comment/69792#comment-69792

Chase has a nice answer to this comment. The advice that stands out is the idea of being excited to talk about sex. I think it comes off incorrectly when the girl senses the guy is just going through the motions or using the sex talk as a deliberate technique to get her aroused. I think even in my not-so-limited experience I can think of topics, such as what I really enjoy in bed, and apply Alek's method of framing it.

@Bboy, I haven't moved fast enough or haven't made a move in a couple of dates last month and got pissed off at myself for that, hence the decision to move faster. This calibration, and the reactions when I go a bit overboard in one direction are quite natural. Just gotta keep tweaking it, I suppose.