FR+ Advice Needed: Rocking and Rolling, Ball Stopped Rolling

[Tryst]

A few weeks ago I was at a bar with my wing. There was a great band playing rock and roll music, and I was dancing beside a 2set, the both of them very tastefully peacocked in a sort of 70s art rock vibe. One of these girls I find to be very beautiful, but it is too loud to open while the music playing - or I could have opened but I'd have had to go direct, and I didn't want to do that, preferring a more Mystery Method style of game.

I open the set with an opinion opener, stack through a few routines, move the set, connect with them a little, neg, and eject as the band comes on. Later on I return to the bar, and am lucky enough to find the 2set waiting outside. I reopen, stack into some funny DHV stories about who I am, qualify the target, and IG close. Pretty standard stuff, and the girls love me. I text her the next morning because I'm still in the city after an SNL with someone from a different bar.

We meet for a date a few hours later, and in the light of day she's even more beautiful. It is immediately obvious that this girl is nervous, likes me a lot, and is in full qualification mode, so I relax and let her chase a little. She frame controls herself - maybe 10 minutes into the date I put my arm around her waist, and she tells me how this made her lose her train of thought. She has to take a short while to recompose herself. She does various like things. We lie down in the park; it's a sunny day, and private enough. We connect quite deeply, kiss, and kino a lot - I am lying down, and she is curled up against me. The vibes are, on the whole, romantic.

We continue the date and I don't recall much, but we went for a drink, I walked her to her place, she declined to let me in, citing a too messy bedroom. We say we look forwards to seeing each other again, and that's that.

She texts me the next day, saying that I must let her know when I'm back in the city so we can go on another date. I ping her, and from here on, her replies are extremely slow, leaving me on delivered for days. I asked her if she wanted to join me on Saturday, she asked if I would be on the night out again, and I said I'd see her in the same bar again. I wasn't able to make it, and texted her so. Later she sends me like 5 texts asking where I am, am I in the bar, if I'm in a different bar she'll go to see me, etc etc - she totally wants to meet me and didn't see my cancellation text. She apologised for not having read the text, and unsent the messages.

Since then I've been pinging her here and there but again she is leaving me on delivered for days, and on the last message, a few days ago, has left me on seen, just after it seemed as if she was investing a little again.


I don't quite know what to make of it. On the date she was totally chasing (or at least right up until the very end - recurring problem for me, my dates start better than the end; as I begin to feel a connection with the girl I drop my value a bit and stop making her chase), she texted me the next day explicitly asking for a second date, she seemed to panic when she wasn't able to find me the next week, but otherwise she is putting in 0 effort by text, and we haven't been able to organise a meet. I'd quite like to see this girl again; she's lovely. Any clues?

If it would help, I can try to recall more details about the verbals and the frames I tried setting. I appreciate I've not given a ton of detail, but maybe someone has seen text behaviour like this before and can connect it to something.

- Tryst

She told me how she likes to lift weights, and flexed
Her biceps, bashful, me to feel.
We joked about witches, (she said she's hexed),
About love, passion, a life that's real.
This silence after seeing my text
Has left me feeling rather vexed.

 

[Chase]

@Tryst,

Solid work with this girl. She was really into you.

Cool to see some old school MM being put into action.

A couple of observations here:

We lie down in the park; it's a sunny day, and private enough. We connect quite deeply, kiss, and kino a lot - I am lying down, and she is curled up against me. The vibes are, on the whole, romantic.

We continue the date and I don't recall much, but we went for a drink, I walked her to her place, she declined to let me in, citing a too messy bedroom. We say we look forwards to seeing each other again, and that's that.

She texts me the next day, saying that I must let her know when I'm back in the city so we can go on another date. I ping her, and from here on, her replies are extremely slow, leaving me on delivered for days.

Well, first thing here, is she is so into you that she is lying down curled up with you and kissing you.

Generally when you go this far, you have begun the escalation-to-sex process. If you don't go all the way you can trigger backward rationalization in her: "Why didn't it happen? I guess it was because I didn't want to. Probably, it was fate. It's better off that it didn't happen." Her resistance goes up; her response rate goes down.

Could you have talked your way into her place anyway? "We don't need to see the bedroom. We'll just chill on your couch." Then get her turned on enough on the couch to where the messy bedroom's no longer an obstacle.

Could you have pulled her to your place instead?

It's good to find out logistics before you start heading to a girl's place, too. You want to avoid situations where you get there but suddenly she is finding excuses to not let you in. Still possible to talk your way in at that point, but... better if those details are ironed out ahead of time.

I asked her if she wanted to join me on Saturday, she asked if I would be on the night out again, and I said I'd see her in the same bar again. I wasn't able to make it, and texted her so. Later she sends me like 5 texts asking where I am, am I in the bar, if I'm in a different bar she'll go to see me, etc etc - she totally wants to meet me and didn't see my cancellation text. She apologised for not having read the text, and unsent the messages.

She was working pretty hard to try and see you.

Fair chance that would've been a pull had you been able to make it.

Since then I've been pinging her here and there but again she is leaving me on delivered for days, and on the last message, a few days ago, has left me on seen, just after it seemed as if she was investing a little again.


I don't quite know what to make of it. On the date she was totally chasing (or at least right up until the very end - recurring problem for me, my dates start better than the end; as I begin to feel a connection with the girl I drop my value a bit and stop making her chase), she texted me the next day explicitly asking for a second date, she seemed to panic when she wasn't able to find me the next week, but otherwise she is putting in 0 effort by text, and we haven't been able to organise a meet. I'd quite like to see this girl again; she's lovely. Any clues?

If it would help, I can try to recall more details about the verbals and the frames I tried setting. I appreciate I've not given a ton of detail, but maybe someone has seen text behaviour like this before and can connect it to something.

- Tryst

She told me how she likes to lift weights, and flexed
Her biceps, bashful, me to feel.
We joked about witches, (she said she's hexed),
About love, passion, a life that's real.
This silence after seeing my text
Has left me feeling rather vexed.

Something you will see with some girls you meet from night game is that they are flaky all week, but when it's time to go out on the weekend again suddenly they become responsive and are trying to meet up.

She's done this with you once already. It could be worth trying with her again to see if the pattern repeats on another weekend too.

Just text her that you're going out and see if she's down to meet. Promise her you won't cancel this time

Good luck,
Chase

 

[Tryst]

Thanks for the feedback, Chase.

Generally when you go this far, you have begun the escalation-to-sex process.

This was maybe 20 minutes into the date, after a maybe 10 minute pickup. It didn't all register in my mind as sexual, or even escalating towards sexual, but romantic. Not that I am devoid of sex - but sexualisation is in fact a serious problem in my game, and maybe I should have seen this as you see it.

Generally when you go this far, you have begun the escalation-to-sex process. If you don't go all the way you can trigger backward rationalization in her: "Why didn't it happen? I guess it was because I didn't want to. Probably, it was fate. It's better off that it didn't happen." Her resistance goes up; her response rate goes down.

I don't think I triggered a reaction like this. I don't think, at this point in time, sex was on her mind either. Again, on the whole, purely romantic, boyfriendish vibes (another problem I realise I am running into! I used to give off such a player vibe, and now that there's no player vibe, I'm boyfriend material...)

Could you have talked your way into her place anyway? "We don't need to see the bedroom. We'll just chill on your couch." Then get her turned on enough on the couch to where the messy bedroom's no longer an obstacle.

I don't think the messy bedroom was really an obstacle in her mind, but just that she didn't feel like isolating with me inside her house, and the messy bedroom was just the easy excuse. I realise now a problem with the structure of the date. We walked to hers as an explicit ending to the date - we both were tired (me after three nights of NG, not going home to my place even once, and I think 3 dates since Thursday), and that ending was mutually understood. So the problems with my attempt to pull arise before this objection, it was the timing. Maybe I could have skipped the drink at the bar and found some excuse to get to hers earlier. I tried to give her an easy excuse to invite me in, because I did not feel comfortable in this specific scenario pushing with a line like you give there. It just felt like the end of the date. Maybe this is me frame controlling myself out of sex.

Could you have pulled her to your place instead?

Impossible, unfortunately - for the last year, all my lays have been at the girls' places. It's a challenge, but it's educational too. Solid game is necessary.


My friend has suggested that I phone call the girl. At this moment, I prefer your idea of just pinging her again this weekend to try and get her out, failing that try to call her on IG, and failing that... it's probably over. I like your "I promise I won't cancel again" thing, it's good stuff.

- Tryst

 

[Tryst]

Disaster. Ran into her on Saturday after she told me she wasn't going out. My friends said she was with another guy. I played as best as I could, but not well, and it's probably dead in water now. I was surprised that I had an actual visceral physical reaction to the loss of validation. Not that she doesn't want me, but that she is with someone else. Not something I've felt in a very long time, and I found the feeling interesting. I got laid on Saturday, but my heart wasn't there.

Somewhat annoying because I don't really see a clear path to improvement other than "just be better at game bro." There are no clear and obvious mistakes, except that my game wasn't above a certain unknowable threshold that would cause her to reject the other guy in my favour. I could have been colder over text, knowing that, in the city I game, it was quite likely I'd run into her again by chance, and it would be better to maintain more value, instead of risking it by trying to get her out when she's clearly not on it.

I notice a tragic pattern. I find a girl attractive, and I go to game her. Throughout comfort, if I like her, I feel more and more a connection, I desire more and more intimacy with her, and I don't get her. If I don't like her, I pull away more and more, I open other sets, I don't care to spend time with her, and she chases me into her bed.


- Tryst

The redhead enchantress with other guys
I'm just a lover in player's disguise.

 

[TomInHo]

Good report G, but here are somethings I noticed

This was maybe 20 minutes into the date, after a maybe 10 minute pickup. It didn't all register in my mind as sexual, or even escalating towards sexual, but romantic.

Time when it comes to sex is sometimes irrelevant. I have pulled girls in under 5 minutes and also have had dates that lasted 10 minutes or less before we went to my place to bang.

If it's on it's on and you have to trust your instincts and jump through windows when girls present them

Not that I am devoid of sex - but sexualisation is in fact a serious problem in my game, and maybe I should have seen this as you see it.

uhm bro... you two where kissing and doing lots of kino on the date. If that's not sexualization then I guess I don't know what the term means. I think you sexualized enough

I don't think I triggered a reaction like this. I don't think, at this point in time, sex was on her mind either.

I doubt sex wasn't on her mind

Again, on the whole, purely romantic, boyfriendish vibes (another problem I realise I am running into! I used to give off such a player vibe, and now that there's no player vibe, I'm boyfriend material...)

Imo there is nothing wrong with having a boyfriend vibe, as long as you make it clear that sex is on the table and is a key part of a relationship.

It's really all about frame control and a girl can view you as a BF but if you set the right frames in place and make her feel like sex happening fast is not going to harm a potential relationship with you then it's all good

That can be done by making her qualify for qualities that make sex happen quickly like... being spontaneous, adventurous, going for what she wants, losing herself to passion etc

And also making her understand that you value women that are comfortable with their sexuality and having an overall non judgmental vibe

I don't think the messy bedroom was really an obstacle in her mind, but just that she didn't feel like isolating with me inside her house, and the messy bedroom was just the easy excuse. I realise now a problem with the structure of the date. We walked to hers as an explicit ending to the date

Me personally, I'm not a fan of trying to pull a girl last minute. This is because even if she really likes you she may have some concerns or objections to being in isolation with you

So doing the pull request before the final moment of the date is best because you give her time to bring up those concerns and you can set frames to make her feel understood and build up more value relevant to her

Objections are actually an opportunity to show a girl that you are right guy for her that can meet her needs so you shouldn't fear them.

Maybe I could have skipped the drink at the bar and found some excuse to get to hers earlier.

I agree

I tried to give her an easy excuse to invite me in, because I did not feel comfortable in this specific scenario pushing with a line like you give there. It just felt like the end of the date. Maybe this is me frame controlling myself out of sex.

I think you played it too safe here to be honest.

Last minute hesitation is normal when people feel they are making a big decision. As the seducer it's part of your job to help her feel she is actually making the right choice with getting with you and quenching her fears

Could have persisted by simply saying something like

"Don't be silly. Even if your room is a mess I promise not to judge you to hard . . . Besides I'm enjoying hanging with you, lets just have one more drink and maybe listen to some music for about an hour then I gave to get home because I think we will both need out beauty sleep"

Something as simple as that is often enough to make a lot of girls go... fuck it why not, one drink won't hurt

My friend has suggested that I phone call the girl. At this moment, I prefer your idea of just pinging her again this weekend to try and get her out, failing that try to call her on IG, and failing that... it's probably over. I like your "I promise I won't cancel again" thing, it's good stuff.

Yeah forget the call. It's unnecessary

Can just ping her while you're out and about "wya". And if she is down to link up she will make herself available

Disaster. Ran into her on Saturday after she told me she wasn't going out. My friends said she was with another guy.

Can you blame her though? She gave you a bunch of openings and you missed them

Not surprising that she is still out looking for a guy that can overcome her resistance and give her good dick

I played as best as I could, but not well, and it's probably dead in water now.

I think you played it too safe to be perfectly honest

I was surprised that I had an actual visceral physical reaction to the loss of validation. Not that she doesn't want me, but that she is with someone else. Not something I've felt in a very long time, and I found the feeling interesting. I got laid on Saturday, but my heart wasn't there.

You win some you lose some, oh well

Somewhat annoying because I don't really see a clear path to improvement other than "just be better at game bro." There are no clear and obvious mistakes, except that my game wasn't above a certain unknowable threshold that would cause her to reject the other guy in my favour.

Well if you were more aggressive while you had the chance you may have been fucking her so good that she had no time to explore her other options

I could have been colder over text, knowing that, in the city I game, it was quite likely I'd run into her again by chance, and it would be better to maintain more value, instead of risking it by trying to get her out when she's clearly not on it.

Nah. Being colder over text would have done nothing here

I mean she was trying hard to meet you a few weekends ago. Value was not your problem here, it you not being opportunistic and striking while the iron was hot

I notice a tragic pattern. I find a girl attractive, and I go to game her. Throughout comfort, if I like her, I feel more and more a connection, I desire more and more intimacy with her, and I don't get her. If I don't like her, I pull away more and more, I open other sets, I don't care to spend time with her, and she chases me into her bed.

The pattern I'm seeing is that you probably play it too safe with girls that you really like and might fall into a habit of over-gaming. And because these women are more attractive they just move on to another guy that reads their signals better and leads more directly to the bedroom

 

[Tryst]

Thank you very much for this write-up, @TomInHo. You've helped me come to some very important realisations about a more general problem I'm having, how it manifested in this case. I 100% had the skillset to lay this girl, exactly as I have tons of NG day2s, and I was stopped entirely by my own mental blocks.

If it's on it's on and you have to trust your instincts and jump through windows when girls present them

uhm bro... you two where kissing and doing lots of kino on the date. If that's not sexualization then I guess I don't know what the term means.

Man, you're so right. There's something wrong in my head. Where I saw this particular girl as something apart and different from other girls. I thought that because we were lying in a sunny park, the situation was different to that on a nightclub sofa. In reality, this situation exactly as sexual as other like situations I've had, and for some reason I invented this non-sexual frame in my head and was projecting it onto the interaction. Because I saw this girl, for some reason, as something different, something special, and less immediately sexual. I thought I had PUA reprogrammed myself very very well, but I guess there are still some beliefs which need to be internalised more.

I doubt sex wasn't on her mind

Sex was on my mind! So I should have known it was on her mind. In fact, I was, at some points, in a very sexual state - and so there's a good chance she was too. I missed out massively by not capitalising. There are clearly some limiting beliefs here... I thought for sure she doesn't see this as sexual, and even if she did, she wouldn't be willing to just go and isolate with me, I wouldn't have the skills to avoid ASD... but she's just a girl! She's not special! She wanted to fuck me, like all the other nightclub chicks I pulled in very little time...

I think this is the most important lesson to take from this experience, and I'm satisfied now that I have some clear error identified to me.

That can be done by making her qualify for qualities that make sex happen quickly like... being spontaneous, adventurous, going for what she wants, losing herself to passion etc

And also making her understand that you value women that are comfortable with their sexuality and having an overall non judgmental vibe

I'm working on sexual framing, natural womanish stuff right now in my early comfort building. When I lived in Paris, I was preselected as fuck, socially proofed as fuck, all the girls knew I was a player, and they wanted me partly because I was a player. Also gave me some interesting LMR which has been a positive experience for me, because it helped me with that skillset. Now, in England, I still haven't built up a social life like that again, and I don't give off crazy player vibes all the time anymore.

[date structuring and pull advice]

All spot on. I didn't go into the date with a plan. As soon as I found out her logistics I should have been seeding and preparing the pull, but I think I got some resistance when I suggested her place earlier, and I just gave up, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to push and practise a very important skillset. This cost me a nice new girlfriend.

So basically I missed huge windows of opportunity on the date, and in the meantime she found some other guy. More proof that no girl is special until you've spent a hundred hours with her, and that you must move quickly; if you don't, someone else will. We seemed to have a super nice vibe going, but if she finds someone who's gonna fuck her while I'm umming-and-ahhing... well, that's a lesson I've learned before. With most girls this isn't a problem for me, it's just a certain type of hotter girl whom for whatever reason I perceive as less slutty. Weird. I know all this stuff, and it just turns off from time to time.

- Tryst

So tarry not in love my lads
Lest you be upset like me.
Go fuck that nymphomaniac,
Hope it burns not when you pee.