FR+ An interesting conversation with one of my failed dates

[Bboy100]

Ok, so I won't go into too much detail about the date itself. But it was pretty typical for me. Basically, we went out for coffee, chatted/flirted for a while, went on a walk towards the end, I kissed her. I also tried to pull her home, but her roommate needed her help...she got locked out of the apartment. Wheather or not this is true or false, I'm not sure. But the point is, she gave me a reason for which she has to leave and I had no way of arguing without coming off looking like an insensitive asshole. At the end of the date, we scheduled to go "make cookies" at my place in a few days.

Here's the interesting part...this is all word for word over text. I sent this first text the day after I met her:
Me: I'm glad to have met you last night! See you Monday

Her: I'm so sorry, not looking to date. Just mmeeting new people now. And my schedule is so jam packed I don't think this week will work Sorry! <---This was AFTER we made explicit plans to meet on Monday. She was pretty hesitant, but I persisted...we decided that we'd plan for Monday and if anything came up, she can tell me.

Me: Thats perfect! I'm not really looking for anything too serious atm either
Let's keep our plans for hanging out for a couple hours on Monday. And if it turns out you gotta go early because you're busy, I'll totally understand

Her: I literally can't keep the plan for Monday, so sorry?

Me: It's all good! When's the soonest you'll be free?

Her: [No reply]

[3 hours later]
Me: Well, I kinda wish you would've been honest with me in person. That way we wouldn't have to play text tag.
But overall, you still seem like a decent person. It was still nice to meet you. Good luck!

Her: To be honest, I dono't want to be kissed the first time I meet you! Friends is all I want. Thanks good luck to you too

Me: Ok, thanks for telling me that. I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortble. Was definitely not my intention [Sad emoji]
But if that's the case, it just leaves me wondering why you agreed to see me again after that. Like, what changed from yesterday to today?

Her: Nothing changed. I was hesitant yesterday but you pushed, so I told you I'd let you know. <---This is false. We made explicit plans, and we said she'd let me know if she can't make it.

Me: Hmm, well to me it seemed like you were hesitant because you weren't sure if you're free, not because you weren't sure if you want to see me again. But maybe I'm wrong? haha
IN any case, thanks for being honest with me, it's much appreciated!

Her: I'm not free, that's a huge part of the problem!

Me: I mean...Ik that. But I feel like if you wanted to see me, you'll eventually find time. Even if its after next week. But by the way you were phrasing it, it sounded like that's not what you were looking to do.
That's the only reason I'm being so pushy about it. Which is why I wished we got to clear the air in person. Cause over text, it just makes me sound like an asshole haha

Her: I don't think we have much in common! Good luck!

Me: Yeah, you too!


What do you guys make of all this? Her behavior is very consistent with 90% of my dates. The only difference is that this is the first time I actually managed to get some sort of dialogue with the girl after. Any thoughts on what this really says? Where my mistake might be when running my dates? I think maybe this is a form of emotional cresting?

 

[Seppuku]

Hey BBoy,

I liked your text exchange with her, and agreed, it's rare to have that after the fact. But it was too late. Now it's best to completely cut for at least 6 months unless she comes back before.

My guess is, regardless of what she says, she would have been keen on a good fuck, and the best moment for that was on this first date. The boyfriend thing is not necessarily and issue, I had girls lying to me on their relationship status.

To be sure, we would need to know more details about the date itself, to see how you came across to her. Maybe you were too boyfriendish, judging by some of her answers "not looking for too serious things".

And how did you try pulling her? The "roommate locked out" is suspicious, would have been worth insisting. Maybe not strong enough lead.

Also, it may be a case of too early kiss. When I started dating I thought that it was better, on a first date, to kiss her before parting. Now I would recommend to only kiss her when you're about to fuck her, and more or less sure you won't get LMR. I use the kiss as a way to arouse her just before fucking her. In any other context a kiss is likely to give her mixed signals, if it conflicts with how you came across. It can work but very risky. Incongruence usually means end game.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Bboy100]

My guess is, regardless of what she says, she would have been keen on a good fuck, and the best moment for that was on this first date. The boyfriend thing is not necessarily and issue, I had girls lying to me on their relationship status.

She never said she had a BF. But yeah, she definitely was. I think the roommate getting locked out thing was legit. Cause she kept pausing throughout the date saying "sorry, my roommate keeps texting me". And she also mentioned that her roommate is needy in general. If it wasn't for that, I'm pretty sure I could have persisted past any objections and got her to at least come home with me.

Regardless, this seems to be a pretty consistent issue for me. Girls will always have something they have to do later in the day. If its a weekend, they'll have plans. If it's a weekday, they have work or an early class. It's rare that a girl will slot longer than 1-2 hours for a first date.

To be sure, we would need to know more details about the date itself, to see how you came across to her. Maybe you were too boyfriendish, judging by some of her answers "not looking for too serious things".

To be honest, for me, its still difficult to distinguish the difference between boyfriend behavior and lover behavior in any way other than the fact that lovers move fast and are more sexually aggressive, whereas bfs don't. So I guess the answer to this is "maybe".

And how did you try pulling her?

Me: I feel like having cookies right now. We should totally go make cookies.
Her: hahaha
Me: No, I'm serious. Let's go [I get up and motion for her to come with me]
Her: That actually sounds like a lot of fun, we should definitely do that! But my roommate keeps texting me saying that she needs my help with something. But I wanna put the cookie thing on the calendar
Me: Oh, cool, we have our own a calendar now? Nice!
[We walk out of the coffeeshop]
Me: Oh, looks like it stopped raining, let's go take a walk around the park
Her: Ok, really quickly...but then I have to go cause my roommate needs me. ...Apparently she managed to lock herself out of the apartment. ...Again. lol

The park is a loop. Takes about 10 mins to finish it. I cuddle up to her while saying "Just for the record...this is strictly for warmth...no funny business ok?" About halfway through the loop, I stop her and kiss her. Right after I break the kiss, I push her away
Me: Wow, you're a witch
Her: No I'm not! Why would I be a witch?
Me: Well...I don't do that on first dates. So obviously you cast a spell on me or made a potion or something. Are you a good witch or a bad witch?
Her: Hahahha...I dunno, is there such thing as a good witch?
Me: Yeah, ofc there is. Like...the female wizards from Harry Potter. C'mon [Her name] step your game up.

[We get to her car]
Me: Ok, so the cookie thing. When are you free to do that?
Her: Umm..I'm not sure. I really don't know about next week. I'm starting my internship on Tuesday and I don't know my schedule
Me: Ok, cool so lets do Monday.
Her: I'm not sure if Monday will do there's a slight chance have [Something...I forgot what it is]
Me: Ok, I'll tell you what. Let's plan for Monday @ 6:00. And if that doesn't work for you, we can reschedule
Her: Ok, sounds good!
Me: Ok, see you Monday.

[We start to hug goodbye, then it turns into a kiss...this time, she seemed a little bit uncomfortable with it. But she didn't say anything and she didn't give me the cheek, in fact, she turned into me]

This isn't ALL of the conversation we had during and after the pull. But it's the basic gist of it. Everything else is pretty similar in nature.

Also, it may be a case of too early kiss.

Yeah...not kissing girls is going to be the next thing I try. It's really the only other big thing I see that I can change about my dates. But if that's the case, I feel like I should also shorten them. Spending 1.5-2 hours together with nothing at all happening feels like kind of a letdown...especially for those who do want to be kissed on a first date (both logically and emotionally)

 

[ProblemSolving]

I kissed her. I also tried to pull her home,

Don't do this. When you do this all plausible deniability is gone. She knows going back to your place after kissing you means sex will be expected. Sex with a stranger can't be a logical decision and you're forcing her to make a logical decision.

This would work okay if you were groping each other at the bar and your pad was close by, but your process will have very little odds of success as it is. She knows the jig is up and that you're going to try tap that when you get to your place, so the million of excuses come. No point in trying to convince her, since your goose is cooked. She agreed to Monday because it was the path of least resistance of getting way from you.

With the next girl, get her back to your pad to make dinner or whatever. Get her nice and comfortable with you touching her, then try to escalate to sex.

1.5-2 hours together with nothing at all happening feels like kind of a letdown...especially for those who do want to be kissed on a first date (both logically and emotionally)

Absolutely, keep the dates under an hour if logistics prevent sex from happening. It works great. The girls feels more comfortable with you and she still hasn't emotionally crested, so she'll want to see you again.

 

[Bboy100]

Don't do this. When you do this all plausible deniability is gone. She knows going back to your place after kissing you means sex will be expected. Sex with a stranger can't be a logical decision and you're forcing her to make a logical decision.

I tried to pull her before I kissed her. Like, we were still at the coffee shop when I first invited her to make cookies with me. She declined because her roommate was in trouble. It was only 10 mins after that that I kissed her.

Regardless, your point stands. I could see how initially, she might have been down to meet me at my place next time, but then after I kissed her, she changed her mind because she realized I would try to have sex with her if she does. I guess the reason I'm having a hard time getting out of the habit of kissing girls on dates is because I feel like its a good way of gauging her current interest level, and where my mistake is if the date doesn't work out haha.
Cause I know that if she rejects my kiss, it's a value or comfort issue. Whereas if she kisses me back, I know the issue is related to my process and to execution more than anything else. But yeah...now that I thought about it, I realize how ridiculously stupid and ironic that line of reasoning is. lol

Still though...I've a LOT of dates which are similar in structure. The only difference is that I didn't try to pull her at all.
Ex. We'd grab coffee, go for a walk in the park, I'd kiss her, then we split paths from there. I DON'T immediately make plans to see her at all. The next day, I send her a "I had a good time" text, and she doesn't reply.
I feel like in this case, since I never pulled her, lack of plausible deniability is not an issue. I guess maybe there are a lot of girls who are not ok with being kissed on a first date (logically speaking), so even kissing them is a form of "failed escalation"?

 

[ProblemSolving]

Yeah if you want to know how she feels about you after the first date just send her a text after you get home:

"It was nice to meet you today Ciara"

If she digs you and wants to see you again, she'll usually reply positively. If she screened you out, you won't get a response.

Kissing will greatly reduce your odds of seeing her again because, like in your current case, it was unexpected and too soon for her. Getting the lay is a balancing act: move too quickly and you're painted as a player who's just trying to get his dick wet, move too slow and you're a clueless chump who can't tell she's DTF which makes her feel slutty.

 

[Bboy100]

Yeah, I could see how on paper, I might come off as gamey. In real life though, this is all actually very natural to me. I'm not using lines, I'm not thinking about "what to say" and I'm not overly excited/smiley. My delivery of these jokes/remarks is kinda hard to explain. It's very similar to this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEejS1bJgy8 (I don't model myself after him...we just happen to have the same style of humor). To me, coming up with these jokes is actually easier and more natural than deep diving. Like...I can deep dive/qualify girls for the first 45-60 mins. But after that, I seem to run out of relevant conversation topics. So I end up going back to Chase Frames+Teasing.

Nevertheless, I get where you're coming from. I think you're right that I do need to do less bantering and more deep-diving. I'm just not really sure how. haha

Admittedly, the cookie thing is a little weird to me too. This was my first time trying it. The only reason I'm doing it is because both a dating coach I'm working with and Adam Lyons himself recommended it as a good strategy for pulling girls home. But if it continues to not work for me, I'll obviously go back to what I was doing before.

 

[Bboy100]

Edit to last post (I was in a hurry and didn't have time to read your guys's responses very carefully!):

being more dominantly physical without kissing.

ask for the walk, and grab her hand on the walk

Good call! I've been forgetting to do this.

-stop getting into arguments with girls. No convincing. If they seem uninterested, cut the date and drop it unless you KNOW they are just being coy.

Well, the "argueing" that I did was after the date. And it wasn't to convince her to go out with me again. I knew I had already lost her. It was more of a way of figuring out what she thought was her reasoning for not seeing me again. That way I could write this FR in hopes that we'll figure out the real reason. haha
Regardless, this still interests me because I do this on dates as well...just in the form or being a bit too pushy. Like...every time I'm "persistent" with a girl, it just feels like I'm twisting her arm (i.e. I'm not being very pleasant at all...feels more like I'm pressuring her into doing something she really doesn't want to do). Do you guys have any videos or audio or anything of someone being persistent without being pushy? Cause this has always been something I never quite understood how to do. haha

Yeah if you want to know how she feels about you after the first date just send her a text after you get home:

"It was nice to meet you today Ciara"

Well yeah, I'm gonna find out how she feels about me sooner or later. Even if I don't write that text, I'll still find out when I ask her out on date #2. But when I kiss her on the date, I know for a fact that if I never see her again, it's not a value issue. I messed up elsewhere. Whereas if I don't and she doesn't reply to text after the date, I'll have no clue what went wrong. But yeah...this point is moot cause like we said before... kissing her in of itself is what causes her to not want to see me again. haha