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(Article) The REAL problem attractive beginners have: rapport?

Conquistador

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After reading this article, a lot of things made sense to me.

It’s not very long so might as well go ahead and read the whole thing before responding.

Thoughts? I have a feeling this might become an epic length thread.
 

ulrich

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Ehhhh… he is kinda right but then takes it all to the extreme conclusion.

I was that kind of guy.
All my life I have been considered handsome and intelligent… couldn’t get a girlfriend to save my life until I was 24.

He is right, I wasn’t lacking attractiveness nor value…. I was lacking attainability.

To say that you don’t need game because you’re already attractive is a stretch.
Game is much more than just pumping your value, saying canned one liners and going to clubs.
Every guy can benefit from it… the more attractive you are, the more you can squeeze out of game, actually.

But there is a certain truth… some guys don’t lack attractiveness, they lack attainability… it’s a common problem as you need both to succeed.
 

Spyce D

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Chase

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Rapport = game.

Or rather, one of the many facets of game.


He's doing the same thing many new guys do, where they get totally fixated on one small aspect of game, ignore everything else, get frustrated, realize it isn't working, then stumble on another aspect of game they'd unconsciously ignored before, conclude that everything they read about game in the past was obviously wrong and that they have independently discovered a hidden truth (which in fact was not hidden at all), then denounce the quasi-game they were practicing and begin preaching their new approach.

I've heard from guys like this repeatedly over the years: "Hey Chase, I tried your stuff for a while but it didn't work that great for me. Then I realized I needed to [some thing Chase tells guys to do repeatedly but this guy never did while he was 'trying Chase's stuff'] and suddenly my results exploded! I think you should try teaching that to your students."

Always makes me go 🤦‍♂️

It seems to be a thing with how the human brain works. When you're taking in a bunch of new concepts, often there's too much to keep in conscious memory and a lot of it gets stored. You just ended up zeroing in on certain aspects of it and 'forgetting' the rest.

Then when you reach a sticking point, you start to unconsciously cycle through all your stored information, dig some of it up, try it without remembering where you got it, and when it works it feels like an independent discovery, with the mind not properly attributing the source of the information.

You see this a lot in songwriters who get accused of stealing a melody from somewhere else that they clearly had heard it, but they claim to not remember having listened to the song -- most of them probably aren't lying, they simply heard it, stored it, forgot it, then months or years later "independently" discovered it. It happened to me in my music-making days too: sometimes I'd make a melody I thought was awesomely original, then later I'd be listening to some song I hadn't heard in a while and realized the melody I'd made was exactly that song's melody.

You see it in movies, too. Watch Spider-Man 2 then The Dark Knight and discover the romance subplot is exactly the same, the scene on the balcony where the too-late guy gets rejected by the girl who has a new fiancée is the same, the theme of this debate within society about whether the hero is a good guy or not is very similar, then watch Dreamscape then Inception and look at how similar that is... does Christopher Nolan consciously lift themes and story beats out of other films? I don't know for sure but I suspect he just watches a lot of movies and it all gets mish-mashed in his head and he has no idea where the concept comes from.

Same with J.K. Rowling and Harry Potter... watch 1986's Troll about a boy named Harry Potter living in a magical building who is mentored by a wise, ancient mage as he encounters many strange magical creatures and evades magical dangers... but when Rowling describes the writing process she says the idea came to her like a bolt from the blue and she just stared writing. I doubt she realized at the time, "Oh wow, a lot of this comes from Troll, doesn't it?"

If you read Steve Jobs's biography, there are multiple anecdotes of people suggesting something, Jobs dismissing it as a stupid idea, then a week later excitedly 'announcing' this brilliant new idea he's had to the person who told it to him, the idea being the same one he dismissed as stupid, with apparently no memory that the other person gave it to him.

I've had women do this to me. Chick has some problem... Chase: "I think you ought to just do X." Chick: "No, you don't understand, that would never work!" Chase: "Okay, whatever." --> weeks later: Chick: "I realized I could do X and now the problem is solved!" Chase: "And how'd you come up with that brilliant idea?" Chick: "It just came to me the other day!" Chase: "Uh-huh."

Has happened to me in seduction, too. Several times I had things I thought were breakthroughs, then read through the archives of guys I respected and discovered my "breakthrough" in an old post of the guy's I'd read months or years before. "Good thing I didn't post that as my own breakthrough!" I'd think.

Anyway, it's always good for people to realize things, whether it is a truly novel insight or it's just something they encountered before but 'forgot' until they were ready to start using it.

The one thing to be wary of is the whole "Ha HA! I have discovered something YOU didn't know! Everybody THINKS they know the truth... but only I have uncovered what ACTUALLY works!" act, which some people are prone to doing but just makes them look goofy when the thing they "discovered" was something people were telling them about all along.

Chase
 

Kaida

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Rapport = game.

Or rather, one of the many facets of game.

I was that kind of guy.
All my life I have been considered handsome and intelligent… couldn’t get a girlfriend to save my life until I was 24.

He is right, I wasn’t lacking attractiveness nor value…. I was lacking attainability.

Yeah similarity is definitely something I need to really fix. I know I could be doing so much better if I figure that out. Despite me getting frequent looks from girls & compliments all the time, I’ve never had a girlfriend. Plus all the girls I’ve messed with have run off or gone cold due to me doin some low attainability BS.

My conversation abilities need massive work as well. I dont think I’ve ever actually had a deep conversation with a girl. It’s always a seduction of physicality and arousal.

May or may not be related but I’ve noticed that it’s somewhat difficult for me to build connections in general with a guy friend. Its easy to get that basic “oh he’s cool” respect, but to relate with someone on a deeper level like that is something I need to improve on. My closest friends are always rare guys I had a lot to relate to them with from the jump (culture, ethnicity, church, background, mindset, sense of humor, etc)
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Conquistador

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He is right, I wasn’t lacking attractiveness nor value…. I was lacking attainability.
I’m going to go on a not-tangent here to point out things.

The concept of “attainability” is just part of a model — one that’s not even tailored directly to seduction in the narrow sense. https://www.girlschase.com/article/attraction-models-can-you-combine-vac-sac

VAC is about raising status, and while high status can get you laid on the macro, at the level of individual sets, the premise of the model starts looking shaky in many situations.

“She didn’t think she could get me” might be a nice chase frame to tell oneself, but it’s usually not the most useful way of examining the issue. It also tends to get knotted up with what her goal is.

Anyway, you didn’t address the issue of rapport and comfort as the primary root of compliance.
To say that you don’t need game because you’re already attractive is a stretch.
He could be read as saying that, but I don’t think that was really his main point.
Game is much more than just pumping your value, saying canned one liners and going to clubs.
Every guy can benefit from it… the more attractive you are, the more you can squeeze out of game, actually.
This is more or less accurate on the face of it. However…
I had shared the article in PMs with a more experienced member who hasn’t chimed in yet and he made two points.

First, that while a deliberate mindset of tactics and techniques is “optimized for growth”, “just BEING and assuming natural attractiveness” is “optimized for results”.

His other comment was that PUA is overall not really about reverse-engineering naturals. This isn’t necessarily an issue so long as you’re aware of that.

The article was specifically geared toward a specific class of guy.

More to say but I’ll save it for now for brevity.
 

Will_V

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After reading this article, a lot of things made sense to me.

It’s not very long so might as well go ahead and read the whole thing before responding.

Thoughts? I have a feeling this might become an epic length thread.

I've always considered good game to be constituted of things that I would be proud to have as a part of my natural personality. That's why, as I've said since a long time ago, I 'use' seduction and my relationships with women to improve everything about myself, to develop my interest in people and my ability to communicate, to develop both emotional depth and control, to reveal weaknesses and instabilities that I would otherwise be able hide and instead fix them, to inch closer toward the perfect balance of elements that creates a character that is as powerful, influential, and admirable as possible.

That's why I'm attracted to daygame, not because night game is really any different (if you're not drunk and doing crazy shit), but because daygame is a completely normal and natural 'everyday' environment. As good seducers will often say, a daygame interaction should look like two people who already know eachother meeting up and enjoying eachothers company.

But daygame is not normal in any practical sense. To consistently develop that kind of interaction between you and a complete stranger within a few seconds, you have to be a very exceptional person with a lot of skill. Whether or not that skill could conceivably be perfectly natural for some people without any conscious learning is not relevant. It is something that guys will more or less have to learn.

Not only that, but frame control during dates - managing the conversation and messages, reading signals and escalating, timing your actions - also requires a lot of skill. And it goes on from there all the way to sex, and even beyond into relationships. Could it be a natural part of some people's personality? Irrelevant. It is a skill that guys will more or less have to learn.

I've added a lot of my skills to my personality to the point of them being reflexes, and many now seem obvious, but I still had to learn them. And because I'm a self-aware individual, I remember that.

The idea that rapport is all you need is simply not the case, even as an attractive guy. Women are not simply hanging around ready to bang any attractive dude. Rapport is necessary when attainability is low, but the attainability spectrum is just one aspect of game that needs to be managed.

I was curious to know what the article specified as the kind of game that is not required. I could only find 4 things:

1. Going to 'overcrowded' nightclubs (?)
2. Asking for phone numbers too quickly
3. Focusing on attraction (?)
4. Spam approaching

For 1), I don't really know what this means, but since I don't really go clubbing and haven't for ages I won't comment.
For 2), I'm not really sure how you stay in contact with someone not in your social circle without asking for the #, and some of my best lays involved asking for the # within a few minutes and ending on a high note
For 3), not sure what it means, I'm guessing DHVing or something similar, well that's just managing attainability for better or worse
For 4) the only one that is pretty clear, and I completely agree with.

In short, the article doesn't really specify anything in particular about game that is wrong or unnecessary. Maybe it's just about being 'less gamey'? OK, sure I can agree with that - I don't think anyone wants to look gamey, at least I don't. If it's about not doing the dumb, crazy, pestering antics of certain elements of the PUA community, sure thing. Would be good for the author to specify exactly what.

But the skills still need to be there, or you'll just be some attractive dude getting IOIs and relying on a trickle of social circle lays.
 

Conquistador

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The idea that rapport is all you need is simply not the case, even as an attractive guy. Women are not simply hanging around ready to bang any attractive dude.
I think that’s kinda missing the point.
Rapport is necessary when attainability is low, but the attainability spectrum is just one aspect of game that needs to be managed.

For 2), I'm not really sure how you stay in contact with someone not in your social circle without asking for the #, and some of my best lays involved asking for the # within a few minutes and ending on a high note
That’s not really the point he’s making.
For 3), not sure what it means, I'm guessing DHVing or something similar, well that's just managing attainability for better or worse
The argument is basically “If you are naturally attractive then JBY so you can focus on dealing with the barriers between the two of you getting together”
There is something to it. It’s not a general denunciation of game. He’s speaking specifically to beginners who already have attractiveness down.
But the skills still need to be there, or you'll just be some attractive dude getting IOIs
A highly attractive man gets IoIs from strangers all the time. Not necessarily AIs in all situations but see below.
and relying on a trickle of social circle lays.
Chase wrote an article on how naturals get volume. Can’t find it offhand but that might be because I’m overtired as usual. Basically a lot of it is just being social with everyone and then taking it from there if girls bite.

Also, you sound a little dismissive of SC.



In general, I’m seeing a lot in the replies so far that’s either avoiding or quite possibly blind to some of the points in the article.


It’s totally possible that he’s flat-out wrong in general and it only works for the set of guys he’s talking to. If so, well, I’m glad I saw it because somehow I’ve drifted away from the effortless comfort/connection building I used to create back at the beginning of college (see the first couple pages of my journal), when all I was missing was the cods to actually be confidently sexual and go for it.

For someone in my position, which could totally be a niche audience for all I know, he seems to have hit the nail on the head.
 

Will_V

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I think that’s kinda missing the point.



That’s not really the point he’s making.

The argument is basically “If you are naturally attractive then JBY so you can focus on dealing with the barriers between the two of you getting together”
There is something to it. It’s not a general denunciation of game. He’s speaking specifically to beginners who already have attractiveness down.

A highly attractive man gets IoIs from strangers all the time. Not necessarily AIs in all situations but see below.

Chase wrote an article on how naturals get volume. Can’t find it offhand but that might be because I’m overtired as usual. Basically a lot of it is just being social with everyone and then taking it from there if girls bite.

Also, you sound a little dismissive of SC.



In general, I’m seeing a lot in the replies so far that’s either avoiding or quite possibly blind to some of the points in the article.


It’s totally possible that he’s flat-out wrong in general and it only works for the set of guys he’s talking to. If so, well, I’m glad I saw it because somehow I’ve drifted away from the effortless comfort/connection building I used to create back at the beginning of college (see the first couple pages of my journal), when all I was missing was the cods to actually be confidently sexual and go for it.

For someone in my position, which could totally be a niche audience for all I know, he seems to have hit the nail on the head.

First of all, let me say that if you've found something that helps you get laid, keep doing it!

However I think you're getting focused on a detail and forgetting the principle.

Imagine two pilots are sitting in a bar. One of them says 'you know to land a plane all you have to be doing is 60 knots'. The other one says 'no way man, I've been landing my plane at 135 knots and it's been going well. If I went that low I'd crash'. And they start arguing about what speed to land the plane.

A third pilot sits there listening and thinks to himself 'both these guys are missing the point. The landing speed depends on your lift. If you have a cessna, you can land at a low speed, but if you have a 747, you have to land at a much higher speed. And if a tailwind suddenly blows in, you have to land faster. And if a headwind blows in, you have to land slower'. Etc.

The principle here is that landing speed depends on lift. The same way that the level of rapport-building depends on attainability.

Game is not (or shouldn't be) about the idea of a certain amount of rapport-building, but instead about the principle of attainability. So arguing that some guys 'don't need game and just need to JBY' is entirely missing what game is about. Some guys need more attainability, some guys less, but the principle of attainability that game teaches you is still entirely valid and applicable to every instance.

Perhaps you need more attainability right now, which is why the article is appealing to you. But attainability, like lift, is not a static phenomenon, and the only thing that really helps you in every situation and at all times is to understand the principle behind things.
 

ulrich

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Anyway, you didn’t address the issue of rapport and comfort as the primary root of compliance.

It’s my experience that the concept of attainability contains rapport and comfort, better explains most situations and better predicts seductions.

Again, I’ve been there… I used to have comfort and rapport with these girls and still struggled to lay them until I started to signal that I was attainable.

He could be read as saying that, but I don’t think that was really his main point.

That was his main point. He deliberately said “attractive guys need no game” multiple times.

The article was specifically geared toward a specific class of guy.

Lol, again… it was directed to the specific kind of guy I used to be and he is wrong.


I think you’re working too hard to defend this article because you’re emotionally invested.
No, it’s not that good.
 

Warped Mindless

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Some thoughts…

Lets define “seduction” In the context of cold approach.

Seduction is meeting a woman who has no idea who you are and making her feel the desire to sleep with you.

”Game” is how effectively and efficiently you make the seduction happen.

I believe there is both an art and science to Game. Part of the art is knowing where you are already at in the seduction process and starting from there.

For instance, if approach a woman and she finds you physically attractive and she was hoping and ready to meet a guy, being able to quickly recognize that and calibrate your “game” from there is an art. Perhaps you figure the attraction part is already taken care of and she needs comfort. Awesome, do you thing.

Next night you go out and you approach a cute stranger. You look the same. The girl is the same caliber of women as the one from last example. Does that mean she’s also going to find you physically attractive AND was out looking to be pulled? No. Therefore it would be a mistake to think “I’m attractive so I just need comfort with this girl.”
 

Bismarck

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Yeah, you gotta calibrate (according to your and her SMV vis-a-vis your and her attainability, for example), but to write game off altogether because you look better is silly.

It's the sort of thing a guy who doesn't believe game works - because he has insufficient reference experiences - says.
 

TomInHo

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After reading this article, a lot of things made sense to me.

I read the article and he's not wrong per say but he misses the mark on quite a few things

A big reason why most attractive men aren’t getting women is because they keep applying the right solutions to the wrong problems. Almost everything in the seduction community is catered towards unattractive men. And this is exactly why a lot of the stuff that you read simply won’t work for you if you’re an attractive guy

I agree to a point. Most content in the community is tailored to unattractive men but I feel like @Chase has done an amazing job here with pointing out different strategies a man can use to improve his woman life regardless of his current attractiveness level

I’ll give you a little bit of my history before we continue. In middle school and high school, I never really had a problem with women. I was able to date the women that I wanted to. However, during my first year of college, I couldn’t get a new lay to save my life. And then after that first year, I started getting laid like crazy. What do you think accounted for such a big dip, and then rise in my success with women? I’ll give you a hint: it wasn’t a game issue.

The problem was that during my first year of college, I changed my tactics with women for the worst. I started quickly asking for phone numbers, and when I got absolutely nowhere, I figured that it was an attraction or game thing. In turn, I kept trying to make myself more attractive by applying more game. In the end, trying to make myself more attractive ended up getting me absolutely nowhere with women.

Just lol

Homie doesn't get it at all. If you're very attractive and laidback plus have a social circle, the girls will constantly open escalation windows for you. But that is because you have proximity and pre-selection

Pre-selection because all the girls will be raving about how HOT you are, and Proximity makes them more comfortable around you

What he is doing is actually improving his Attainability with that approach. Therefore without him realizing it he is actually using game

I'm guessing that when he was cold approaching women, he didn't have the skillset to come off more attainable very quickly hence the drop in his results. And because he didn't understand the real problem he kept employing tactics to raise his value hence making him seem even more unattainable to girls

Pretty much wrong diagnosis and medication

Why was that? Because I was applying the right solution to the wrong problem. You see, I was already attractive. I kept trying to fix a problem that didn’t exist, and that’s what most attractive men who learn game are doing. They are trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. They figure that their lack of success with women must be an attraction thing, so they keep trying to make themselves come off as more attractive, almost always blaming broken game when they don’t succeed.

It's starting to click for him here

If game wasn’t and isn’t the right solution, then what is? For me, and most attractive men, the issue is rapport. When I went from trying to use game, trying to make myself more attractive, and stopped quickly asking for phone numbers, and instead, started working on my hospitality, making a lot of friends, and taking my time with women, my life with women literally changed over night. The reason why I was not seeing success with women wasn’t because of game or attractiveness, it was simply because women didn’t know me well enough

The solution was attainability.... he just went about improving his in a painfully inefficient way

That is why playing the numbers game, going to overcrowded nightclubs, and focusing on game and attraction is a bad idea for men that are already attractive. Playing the numbers game will cause you to leave women before they know you well enough to go out or have sex with you. Going to overcrowded nightclubs will cause your interactions to be cut short and not allow you enough time to make women comfortable with you. Focusing on attraction will have no effect on your end results. And focusing on game will only make you stick your foot in your mouth sooner or later

LOL... He still doesn't get it

Honestly when you are very attractive you don't really need to approach too much in nightclubs. You can simply present well, go to the club to chill and open the girls that give you AI's and proximity

Fuck getting numbers. Girls go out to get banged by a sexy mysterious stranger not collect numbers

You also don't need women to get super comfortable with you in nightlife to fuck them fast. If you can get them in the mood you can do some pretty wild shit very quickly

I'm also guessing this guy is very bad at reading women's signals.

Because this is something else I've notice when hanging out with my other attractive friends. They will be hanging out with a chick and be missing all the signs that she wants to get railed. Then as the interaction continues she gets bored and leaves then he rationalizes that he wasn't cool enough or she wasn't "comfortable" enough with him lol

When a lot of the time she was hoping he would make a move and he didn't so she wandered off to go find another man that is less dense and more sexually confident/aware

I've gotten some of my friends laid by telling them simple shit like "Bro she likes you, go take her to dance and feel her up", "Bro she likes you, just give her a little kiss so she knows you're interested", "Bro she likes you, invite her to the afterparty"

As an attractive guy you should Always Be Escalating.... ABE

As an attractive guy, you don’t need game and you don’t need to make yourself anymore attractive. What you need to do is build rapport and focus on making women comfortable with you. Going to overcrowded nightclubs isn’t helping your cause. Playing the numbers game isn’t helping your cause. And focusing on game isn’t helping your cause. As an attractive guy, the problem isn’t your attractiveness or your game. The proper solution to your problem is creating a good rapport and making women more comfortable around you. Don’t try to fix something that isn’t broken.

Actually I would say this instead

As an attractive guy what you need is to not do stupid things that make girls see you as unattainable, stop being so damn aloof, be humble, qualify girls on why you dig them, show sexual interest and escalate when she signals that she's interested

Attractive guys still need game but it might look a little bit different when compared to their less attractive peers
 
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