FU Dates all end the same way. No idea how to fix it.

[ElderPrice]

Hi everyone,

This is sort of a continuation from a previous thread (https://boards.girlschase.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19274). Seppuku suggested to post future dates in the FR board so, after a bit of a hiatus, here I am with my first date in a few months!

To summarize, all the dates I've been on since starting my journey have basically went the same way -- the girl just never turns on. I've never been on a third date. Only a couple have gone to a second. I posted that previous thread trying to ask the Beginner board for help on flirting/framing/being sexy. After looking back at my dates at the time, the conclusion I drew was that I just wasn't flirting/framing/and being sexy on my dates and that was the missing piece of the puzzle.

Even though this is my first date since then, I've been studying and toying around (in interactions with girls) with these concepts and I have a much better understanding of them. I still have a ways to go, but I do a much better job of controlling the frame, implementing touch, making conversations sexual, etc. At this point I'd say I have a better understanding enough that now I'm not so sure if those subjects were ever my problem. I guess I'm still lost. I just have no idea why I can't convert on dates. Anyway, on to the field report!

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Had a date tonight with a girl I met at dance class. Sexy, funny, and very happy to give me her number and arrange a date. We met at a place about 10 minutes from her and about 30 minutes from me. I live with my parents so logistics always suck. For most of my past dates I'd try to pick a place close to hers so that if anything happened I could at least try to invite myself over to her place. With the last few dates I've tried picking spots closer to my place to see if that made a difference. This time she specifically requested that she didn't want to drive far, and I had a suspicion she may have been a rare girl that actually lives alone with no roommates (didn't get around to asking her about this before arranging the date). Also, she's only been in town temporarily and is moving out of town this weekend. I figured this meant a decent chance she'd be quite DTF as you'd probably expect too. So I figured what the hell and agreed to drive out her way.

We met at a new casino I had heard about and wanted to check out for myself. It's unfinished so they only have one type of game on the floor and one bar on the side. So after walking around and seeing the place was sort of cut and dry I say let's move on to the outdoor mall down the block. Maybe get some ice cream and walk around. She agrees. I drive us both down there. We walk to get ice cream first. Then we browse in a candy store. Then we walk around. We find a private spot where I probably blew an escalation window, then we find some chairs and sit and talk, then we leave.

The conversation throughout the night seemed fine, and I tried to hit on as many GC points as possible. On all dates I'm always deep diving, but not so much on this one. We were having too much fun shit talking and teasing back and forth to each other throughout the night. She has a fun personality like that. Whenever the opportunity arose, I made the conversation sexual (like when she put a lot of ice cream in her mouth and laughed because she couldn't talk, I said "now swallow." Stuff like that. She laughed but never threw back that talk of her own). I tried implementing touch throughout the night (hand, arm, shoulder, hair... Like every date, it just didn't work at all. Still haven't come across a girl who touches back on a date - and that includes dates where I tried basic touching a lot and dates where I didn't touch at all). If a certain song was playing I'd take her hand and start spinning her like to dance. I still suck with persistence, but I did a better job on this date than I have on all others (ie. she claimed work called and she had to leave the date in an hour to go in to work and put out a fire. I kept telling her 5 more minutes as I moved her around. Kept her an extra hour!). The date was inexpensive. I arranged the date, meaning after we found a day that worked for the both of us, I picked the time and location. Texting was used only to arrange the date. My appearance was good - well-fitting clothes, styled hair, sexy facial hair, even went with the red shirt this time for the added effects. I did a better job at qualifying than on previous dates. When she said she did a gym routine that I did as well, I mentioned how much I like that about her and it became a good chunk of our conversation.

On this date I think I missed an escalation window. I should have forged ahead and tried, but I didn't feel confident she would have kissed back. This is when we walked to a private spot overlooking the main part of the mall. We danced a little, and I kept trying to get her excited/aroused in the least bit. I kept trying basic touch but it just didn't turn her on. I tried sincere compliments. But she just never had those "fuck me" eyes or the "kiss me now" eyes. I've seen those before. But just never on dates. Again I probably should have just gone for the kiss and got rejected for the reference point, but it just didn't feel right. Oh well. Again to be clear, I don't know if she was actually giving me an escalation window. She definitely didn't seemed primed and wanting to escalate. But to me, that was definitely the moment to try, not in the car at the end of the date like I mention below. Did I miss my own escalation window? Lol.

Anyway, after that we walked some more and again she tried to leave to go to work, but again I was able to say 'let's look at this thing instead. only 5 more minutes.' We ended up sitting and talking for maybe 20 more minutes. After this we had covered the whole complex and the date was going nowhere so we got back in my car and I drove her back to hers down the block. She specifically asked for a hug before getting out the car. I tried to hold a frame/persist a little by asking for a kiss in a playful way. she said no. I kept at it, trying to get her to agree to something on my terms. "come on, it's a date! " "no" "alright, how about a kiss on the cheek? " "no" "come on, a peck on the cheek! " "no." She said those "no's" more playfully, there's just no way to type that out haha.

I didn't do a good job of typing it out as I went, so to reiterate, she generally seemed to be having a good time. She wasn't bored. She laughed a lot. She teased right back. Just never got turned on.

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So, the reason I'm posting this is that after say, 40 dates, they all go and end the same way, and I just have no freaking clue where I'm going wrong.

It honestly seems like the second the date starts, they just go dry and stay dry. Seriously. It's not like these girls are sitting there with the "fuck me" eyes for 30 minutes and I'm sitting there ignoring it and talking about sports or something. They just don't get aroused on the date. Even if I let them do all the talking, even if I incorporate touch, even if I make the conversation sexual.... no sign of life.

I don't get it. Whether the dates are the 5s and 6s from online dating before I discovered GC or whether the dates are the 7s and 8s after discovering GC and going out and kicking ass at cold approaching, the dates just go the exact same.

What do I do?

I'd appreciate if anyone has a specific instruction I should try on my next date to either try as a reference point or to help diagnose the problem. I'm just out of ideas.

Thank you everyone! You guys rock! Please ask me for anything I missed and I'd be happy to answer and provide more detail.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey ElderPrice,

You mention you've been on 40 dates, so again, I think you have things going for you, at least when you initially approach them. You have them interested enough to accept a date with you. Congratulate yourself for that!

Now it doesn't convert into actual results. There must be one specific thing that you are doing each time, and which doesn't resonate with the image she made of you. Some incongruence! So the goal here is to identify that thing. So the first thing I'm going to ask you: continue to get dates, and make it a habit to post the FR here. It's going to help the diagnosis. These hundreds of words you put together each time in the FR are the only way we have to get a sense at what is going on.

So let me start with the things I perceived which are probably not working.

1. Too much venues. It sounds like a "fun date" at least partially. The focus of the date must be exclusively on both of you. No fun places or anything that is going to take the attention away from the both of you. Here, checking out the casino and "browsing the candy store".

2. All your touching and no response. Something's strange here. But one thing is sure, if there is no positive response from your touching, but you still continue to do it a lot, it is going to be perceived negatively. So in fact, you may be over doing it.

3. She mentions a time constraint. Then it is good to persist - in case the "time constraint" is actually bullshit. But if the time constraint keeps coming up, then it's real. If you won't have time to go all the way with her, then you need to adapt the date consequently. Different date with different objective.

4. Your insistence at kissing. "If I manage to kiss her, it means she likes me then I can get bolder". Is that the idea? Because it's wrong. Kissing a girl on a date will not be a guarantee of anything, and it may actually backfire big time. If she has been sensing that you were anxious to kiss her all the time, that probably lost you points. And when you insisted for the kiss in the car before parting, that did cost you points for sure. It's neediness!

There is one point I'm not sure: did you come across as needy? This is very likely. You must be anxious to close and succeed after 40 dates! And if you were looking for the right moment to kiss her (and didn't) she must have sensed that. If this is the case, it would explain all your problems. Besides just this desire to kiss her, many other body language cues will give you away. Be careful because it is an attraction killer. And the problems you describe look exactly like that: killed attraction.

Another thing I strongly suspect: you are not creating tension. She reads you like an open book.

And last, you are maybe over-gaming in general.

If you keep doing the same, you will keep getting the same results. So we must change a few things. I am going to try to make you bring in more tension, by "keeping her guessing".

For next time, I ask you to try as follows:

1. Simplify your date. You go for a coffee shop in a mall, near your place. That's it. No nice casino and store to check. Nothing to take attention away from you and her.

2. Simplify the touch. Very early in the date, you break the touch barrier. You both sit side by side in the coffee shop, and in the course of the conversation, on a high point, you briefly make a soft tap on the back of her hand / forearm. That's it for now. Then you withdraw.

3. Focus on making her talk. Ask her story, and the reasons behind it, and the why and the how. No smart gaming (I suspect you are over doing it). If there is an opportunity for an easy innuendo (such as the ice cream thing in your LR) then put it in, but don't stretch yourself.

4. Don't give yourself away. You stay calm on the outside. You keep a neutral body language, don't lean towards her, straight back, perhaps turned slightly away. Don't show your inner excitement. Don't smile, except if it's to reward her when she said / did something nice.

5. Like 45 minutes or one hour into the date, tell her "let's have a selfie". Get close to her (you're both sitting side by side remember?). Pull out your phone in your left hand, then put your right arm around her shoulder, you guys both smile, then picture. Second pic if necessary. After that, again you pull back. Then resume conversation.

6. After another 15 to 30 minutes, tell her "let's go" (you don't say where), then you guys pay the tab, then leave the coffee shop. And now, you take her hand in yours. If she has been wondering all the time "does he like me?" (thanks to the minimal game prescribed above), then you taking her hand should come as a relief to her.

7. Walk around for like ten fifteen minutes, with her hand in yours, and pay attention to how her hand fits inside yours. If it looks like she wants to keep it there, you're good! If it feels like her hand will escape yours at the first chance, you don't have enough comfort.

8. NO ATTEMPT AT KISSING. Forget it. It is not a valid goal. Plus it can backfire (like it probably did in this FR). So this is now out of your objectives. I have been with maybe 70 girls? I don't kiss them on dates. I kiss them when they're naked in my arms, on my couch at home, my condom on, and I'm about to penetrate them. And I got there without "intermediate kiss on date".


If you feel bold, then try the Leap of Faith. What do you have to lose? Absolutely nothing. You know they don't show up on a next date. If you're going to lose her anyway, you have at least to try. If you manage to end the date at your place, THAT will be an improvement.

The Leap of Faith goes like this. You guys are walking around just after the coffee shop date. Her hand in yours. Now simply walk towards your home. You will feel the pressure to explain where you are going, but don't, unless she asks. Surprise surprise, sometimes they don't even ask! But if she asks, have an excuse ready. "I'm taking you to dinner" (and you actually meant a dinner at your place). Or "I have a very nice music playlist at home". Or whatever (but not a movie at home excuse. The attention on both of you still, with no distraction).

Very often, when you pull her home, there will be some Anti Slut Defense building up. Now is the time to open your mouth and talk to keep her mind occupied and away. She will maybe try to rationalize "I thought we were going to [XXX]" (whatever). You just dismiss, or go around, or have a weak "in principle" response, but you keep leading her to your home - which is, hopefully, not too far!

At home, put music, make her comfortable, and escalate!

Let me know what you think. In any case, keep posting your FRs so that we can improve and fine tune the diagnostic.

Seppuku

 

[ElderPrice]

Seppuku, first off, you are the man! Thank you so much for taking the time to write out such a detailed reply! I'm sort of speechless that someone online would take the time to help me to this extent. I genuinely can't express my gratitude enough!

Allow me to respond to all the points.

1. Too much venues. It sounds like a "fun date" at least partially. The focus of the date must be exclusively on both of you. No fun places or anything that is going to take the attention away from the both of you. Here, checking out the casino and "browsing the candy store".

1. For most of the dates I've been on, I've followed your suggestion here. They were the simple drinks/coffee date. Nothing elaborate. Since those didn't yield results, for the last few dates I've tried the "too many venues" approach to see if that adds some excitement to the date. IIRC this has been discussed favorably here on GC. I believe Chase talked about 'many dates in a short amount of time' and I believe another author talked about trying a 'don't let her sit down' rule on a date, meaning he saw good results when he kept the date moving, like stop for coffee, then go straight for ice cream, then go straight to the park, etc. Whichever method is ultimately the better, more productive choice, it seems I'm blowing it regardless of how many venues my dates involve.

2. All your touching and no response. Something's strange here. But one thing is sure, if there is no positive response from your touching, but you still continue to do it a lot, it is going to be perceived negatively. So in fact, you may be over doing it.

2. Agreed. I was really only being persistent with the touching to see if it would make a difference. Again probably the majority of my dates involved zero touching and the results were the same.

3. She mentions a time constraint. Then it is good to persist - in case the "time constraint" is actually bullshit. But if the time constraint keeps coming up, then it's real. If you won't have time to go all the way with her, then you need to adapt the date consequently. Different date with different objective.

3. Agreed. With anyone else it would make sense to adapt, like part ways and arrange a second date. With this one permanently moving out of town this weekend, I just assumed she was bullshitting and was just looking for some quick intimacy with no possibility of attachment. Just a guess.

4. Your insistence at kissing. "If I manage to kiss her, it means she likes me then I can get bolder". Is that the idea? Because it's wrong. Kissing a girl on a date will not be a guarantee of anything, and it may actually backfire big time. If she has been sensing that you were anxious to kiss her all the time, that probably lost you points. And when you insisted for the kiss in the car before parting, that did cost you points for sure. It's neediness!

Oh yeah the kiss in the car for sure lost points. I knew that. At that point I was only testing to see what I could get with some playful persistence. I knew she was going to say no lol.

No, the idea was simply trying to hit an escalation window (if one even existed). Let me be clear: I don't give a shit about kissing on a date. I don't need it, I don't need the validation, none of that. If you could tell me I could go on successful dates without kissing, that would be a relief. I only thought about kissing because again I have no freaking clue where I'm going wrong here. Some GC vets would ask 'are you missing an escalation window?' I have no idea. The only way to find out is to escalate and find out, no?

Also, if kissing is better to be avoided on a date, then I don't get it -- what then does it mean to escalate? Hug her and that's it? And I've read other authors here who talk about going for the kiss no more than 30 minutes into the date. Seems to imply that you should be going for a kiss at some point. But then you (and others) have talked about not going for a kiss. So I am fully confused here. What are you escalating to if you're not going for a kiss at some point?

There is one point I'm not sure: did you come across as needy? This is very likely. You must be anxious to close and succeed after 40 dates! And if you were looking for the right moment to kiss her (and didn't) she must have sensed that. If this is the case, it would explain all your problems. Besides just this desire to kiss her, many other body language cues will give you away. Be careful because it is an attraction killer. And the problems you describe look exactly like that: killed attraction.

You're probably right since this would indeed answer everything. But I have no clue if I come across as needy or not. And it's not like it's a subject I'm unaware of. I think it was like the 5th date I ever went on, I ended up hanging out with and talking to a girl for 5(!) hours. When I texted her a couple days later she sort of flipped out at me saying how needy I was that I went to hold her hand at some point and gave her a kiss goodnight. I thought about her comments, agreed with them, and have tried as best as humanly possible to never be needy in the slightest again. So I am consciously trying not to be needy. But at the same time, I'm a guy. And a noob. I have no idea how I'm coming across.

I definitely don't know what else I can do besides just sit there looking bored the entire time. Or be disrespectful. It's also a little confusing because I don't get how it relates to trying to be a confident, dominant man. Like, if I want to be the man and "move fast" as Chase says to do, and if I want to be the man and have a good, fun time on the date instead of a boring, waste of time date... does that come across as needy? Stated differently, so if you move quickly, go for the escalation, and go after what you want (results) you can either come across as alpha or needy? Am I making sense where I'm confused here?

Another thing I strongly suspect: you are not creating tension. She reads you like an open book.

You're probably right. But again, I have no idea what I'm coming across as.

For next time, I ask you to try as follows:

1. Simplify your date. You go for a coffee shop in a mall, near your place. That's it. No nice casino and store to check. Nothing to take attention away from you and her.

2. Simplify the touch. Very early in the date, you break the touch barrier. You both sit side by side in the coffee shop, and in the course of the conversation, on a high point, you briefly make a soft tap on the back of her hand / forearm. That's it for now. Then you withdraw.

3. Focus on making her talk. Ask her story, and the reasons behind it, and the why and the how. No smart gaming (I suspect you are over doing it). If there is an opportunity for an easy innuendo (such as the ice cream thing in your LR) then put it in, but don't stretch yourself.

4. Don't give yourself away. You stay calm on the outside. You keep a neutral body language, don't lean towards her, straight back, perhaps turned slightly away. Don't show your inner excitement. Don't smile, except if it's to reward her when she said / did something nice.

5. Like 45 minutes or one hour into the date, tell her "let's have a selfie". Get close to her (you're both sitting side by side remember?). Pull out your phone in your left hand, then put your right arm around her shoulder, you guys both smile, then picture. Second pic if necessary. After that, again you pull back. Then resume conversation.

6. After another 15 to 30 minutes, tell her "let's go" (you don't say where), then you guys pay the tab, then leave the coffee shop. And now, you take her hand in yours. If she has been wondering all the time "does he like me?" (thanks to the minimal game prescribed above), then you taking her hand should come as a relief to her.

7. Walk around for like ten fifteen minutes, with her hand in yours, and pay attention to how her hand fits inside yours. If it looks like she wants to keep it there, you're good! If it feels like her hand will escape yours at the first chance, you don't have enough comfort.

8. NO ATTEMPT AT KISSING. Forget it. It is not a valid goal. Plus it can backfire (like it probably did in this FR). So this is now out of your objectives. I have been with maybe 70 girls? I don't kiss them on dates. I kiss them when they're naked in my arms, on my couch at home, my condom on, and I'm about to penetrate them. And I got there without "intermediate kiss on date".

1. I've done it many times before. Happy to try again. Much easier than other options!
2. Will do. One touch then done. Again I've tried light touching before with the exact same results. But yes, I agree, no overdoing it next time.
3. Again this has always been my strategy. I'll keep doing it.
4. This will be tough since it doesn't match my personality and won't match at all the personality she sees when she meets me and gives me her number, but no problem. I'll do it.
5. Will do.
6. Take her hand and walk with her while holding it? I've been told by multiple people that this is needy behavior. Again the needy confusion as I discussed above.
7. What do you do if you don't have enough comfort? End the date? Try to build it over more conversation? Then what? Take her hand again later?
8. Sounds good to me.

Regarding the Leap of Faith, any suggestion on how to do it when walking just isn't an option? I don't live downtown. I live in the suburbs and every single date has involved me and the girl driving separately to a venue. Every time I've offered to pick the girl up, she's declined. Also, I don't have my own place at the moment to make it even more challenging haha.

Seppuku, thank you so much again for the help. I hope my responses are reasonable and thoughtful, and can stimulate a productive discussion. Looking forward to hearing your additional thoughts. Thank you again!

 

[Seppuku]

Hey ElderPrice,

You're welcome man. I want to try getting you out of your sticking points. Alright thank you for your additional input, that's helpful.

Since I cannot be physically next to you when you are dating these girls and see what happen, then I have to take some guess as to what is actually the problem. I have several possible tracks:

• Un-congruence. You communicated something nice about yourself when you first contacted her, that led her to accept the date. Then on the date, you are communicating something different (and not as good)
• Coming across as needy. It would explain all your woes. Sometimes it can be the body language that betrays you.
• Coming across as "try-hard". That's when you are too obvious in your attempt to make her like you. I am adding this to the list of possibilities.
• Failed tests?
• And lack of goal for the date. No plan!

So let me elaborate.

No goal, or wrong goal

It's because I noticed this:

Regarding the Leap of Faith, any suggestion on how to do it when walking just isn't an option? I don't live downtown. I live in the suburbs and every single date has involved me and the girl driving separately to a venue. Every time I've offered to pick the girl up, she's declined. Also, I don't have my own place at the moment to make it even more challenging haha.

No need to remind you that the goal of all this dating is to put your good friend Mr. Dick inside her. And for that to happen, you absolutely need a plan beforehand. It means that, before you even take her on the date, you need to be crystal clear where you are going to isolate her later on. So I am asking you to do the homework:

Where are you going to isolate her?

Clarify that for yourself. You absolutely need a clear answer.

Possible goals typically seen in beginners (and myself, before!) include:

• Making her like me. Wrong. She already does or she wouldn't even be here. This is insecurity and neediness and kill your chances
• Getting a kiss. Wrong. Same as above.
• Secure another date. Wrong. This is like no goal other than deferring the main problem.

So I am asking you: What is your goal when you go on a date?

Pulling her in a private place and escalating her HAS to be your goal. You are going to do that, either on the first date, or on the second. Which brings back the question: where will you isolate her.

Coming across as try hard

This is also a serious possibility. If she becomes consciously aware that you are over doing it. Or if you are "high energy" during the date. Read Chase on sprezzatura. High energy, low results is (if I remember correct) what Chase called "Jester". You want the opposite: low energy, high results "the King"

In any case I advise you to lower down your energy level on the date, and reduce the amount of "game".

Coming across as needy
That would explain things. You need to check that for yourself next time. Pay attention to your body language. Are you giving any cues that you are throwing yourself at her? Also, if getting her to kiss has been an objective, she may sense it and perceive it as needy.

Her tests
If she likes you, she must has thrown some tests at you. How did you handle these? I don't recall you mentioned that? If you actually failed her tests, that would explain your problems.

So I think I need to know more on the above points.

Let me answer now some of the questions you raised.

What is physical escalation?
This is when you gradually take possession of her body with the aim of fucking her.

My physical escalation starts when I first meet her, with my touch routine. Establishing physical contact, then gradually become more daring and sexual during the date is how I begin the sexual escalation. But when I do it, I do it in a calibrated way, where I gauge her response to what I am doing then adjust by doing more or less of it. It happens during the date. Then later I pull her home and I continue doing the same in a gradual, but much more sexual way: kissing her neck, cupping her boobs, caressing her thighs, etc... then start to remove her clothes, etc... If I see she's on, I will also take her hand and put it on my dick, and let her appreciate. Some girls need to be indicated that it is alright to do so, that they have your approval, before they go for it.

Note that kissing (like making out) is NOT required. Unless she's the one obviously going for the kiss, I only do it very late in the escalation, when it's clear to both of us we are about to fuck. If you do it too early, it may backfire as a big tension killer. I advise you stay out of the kiss for now.

Taking hands
I've been on over 120 dates in the last 4 years, and I took hands in all of them. And went to bed maybe 40 to 50% of the time, most of it in the first or the second date. When bed didn't happen, it's usually because the chemistry didn't materialize face to face, either from her side, or my side. The holding hands had nothing to do, I'm positive.

But what exactly do I mean? It's not coming from a lovey-dovey perspective. It's more like "follow me". It's my way of testing / getting compliance. When we move between venues (typically getting out of the car, and walking 100m to the venue) I extend my hand (which is a compliance request), she puts her hand in mine, then I lead her in a "follow me" fashion. It establishes the frame that I'm the boss, she's the follower. I also get a sense of how well she's following my lead, and how easy it's going to be later when I get her to follow me home. With these cues I know how much comfort building I still need to make, then decide if I can pull today, or on the next date. The earliest I know that, the better I can adjust and calibrate my date.

But this calibration is advanced stuff imo. At the beginning, I advise you to always try to aim for first date pull, because that's when your chances are highest.

But for that you need to resolve the logistics problem.

more on logistics
My situation, and yours, are completely different. I cannot advise you on logistics. You need to figure it out. But this is the main problem you have in my opinion. It would be nice if another guy with experience of large north American cities and suburbs could bring in some perspective.

You need to figure out (i) where you are going to take her, and (ii) how you are going to take her there. Ideally it should be as short a time as possible. And it's best if you're both in the same car while moving places (you can always drive her back later, or have an Uber, etc...)

date template
Yes I see which date template you tried to implement from Chase. OK, now with so much unknown variables, I advise you to stick with the simple coffee shop date (which is another template recommended by Chase by the way), then focus on logistics and pulling.

Seppuku
PS. Try getting me some answers to above then we'll try to refine the model date to try next.

 

[ElderPrice]

Thank you again my friend! My thoughts on your points:

1. Un-congruence. You communicated something nice about yourself when you first contacted her, that led her to accept the date. Then on the date, you are communicating something different (and not as good)
2. Coming across as needy. It would explain all your woes. Sometimes it can be the body language that betrays you.
3. Coming across as "try-hard". That's when you are too obvious in your attempt to make her like you. I am adding this to the list of possibilities.
4. Failed tests?
5. And lack of goal for the date. No plan!

1. I've been thinking about this. All the girls I've been meeting recently has been at dance night. I'm at my best on dance night. Good energy, having fun, asking a bunch of girls to dance (abundance/pre-selection), just having a good time. The dates of course are then a very different energy. Whether it's sitting at a coffee shop, walking around, getting ice cream, no matter what the energy is just different. So maybe this is playing a factor. However I'm not sold on this because when I was getting dates from online apps, the results were still the same. The dates go the same way regardless of where I met the girls from. This is the only possible congruence issue I can see personally. But I wouldn't be shocked at all if I'm missing some that a more advanced guy could easily spot.

2. This has got to be it but I consciously try as best I can to not be needy. I can tell you internally in many ways I don't feel needy. This girl was not some enchantress placed on a pedestal. If it didn't work out, no sweat, always more girls to meet. Even on the way to the date I was thinking if she became the first girl ever to stand me up, I wouldn't care. This was a venue I wanted to check out anyway and since I'd be there anyway, it would be a great opportunity to see what other girls I could meet there If I didn't get laid I wouldn't care. There's always more dates to go on.

3. I don't think I'm coming across as a jester. I'd be surprised if I was. Don't get me wrong, my personality is definitely more on the 'I love to laugh and joke around' side, but it's not like I'm writing material trying to impress a girl and make her laugh the whole time. Just playful conversation, teasing, laughing. Not for her benefit but for mine. I'm trying to have some level of fun on dates. I'm trying to enjoy it, to enjoy the moment, to enjoy the process. I don't want to be the boring guy sitting there like 'so do you like to read books?' because that's boring for me. Now, I definitely do have room to lower my energy. I'll try it but damn that just does not sound like my personality. Oh well. If it gets results... And yep I've read his articles on being low energy/effort - high results so I'm at least aware of what you're talking about.

4. It's possible, but I didn't notice too many tests, if any at all. If the time constraint was BS then that was a test. Maybe I failed at the very end by finally succumbing to it? Though she did bring it up a few times. She was the one who wanted to look in the candy store, but I agreed to it by saying 'that's okay, but afterward I want to check out a bar down the way to see if they're dancing there tonight.' On an occasion where she thought we were heading back to the car so she could leave, I just turned and went in the opposite direction to check out another part of the complex. She followed. These are the only tests I can think of. I don't recall any in conversation.

5. Goal for isolation. This one is definitely tough not having a place of my own, but I do have some idea of how I'd like things to go. My goal at the end of the date is to be back at her place. If that can't work and the logistics are just pure garbage, then all I can think of for a Plan B is to find a good parking lot and escalate in my car. I don't want to shell out money for a hotel and public sex doesn't interest me at the moment.

My goals are definitely NOT to make her like me (I assume she does already...), to get a kiss (laid > kiss) or to get another date (screw that. Results on date 1 is the goal!). So the goal is there. The process to get there is definitely mediocre, like in this girl's case I didn't know if she had a place of her own, so I was winging it or willing to make up the process to get there on the fly, but there was some goal. I'm curious what your thoughts are now with this information. My hunch is that I have to be screwing up long before this. Girls never have the 'fuck me' or 'kiss me' eyes before reaching this point, and as discussed previously, girls won't even touch me back after breaking the touch barrier early on in the date. So even if I had a picture perfect plan to pull her back to my perfect apartment only a perfect 2 minute walk away, it seems I'm not even getting to that opportunity in the first place.

Regarding escalation...

So what do you do when you "adjust by doing less"? In other words, what do you do when a girl just won't touch you back? Is your goal still to fuck her that night or is she a lost cause and all you can hope for at this point is a second date? In that case do you quickly end the date? How much do you persist at touching before you figure 'screw this, this ain't going anywhere'?

Regarding holding hands...

I get what you mean. All I can say at this point is that on every date it makes me feel awkward AF anytime we have to walk anywhere. I'm sure she notes this. I just never feel comfortable walking with a date. On one hand, I feel like it makes sense to be the man and take your date's hand and lead her wherever you're walking to. On the other hand, I feel like a man with abundance doesn't take a girl's hand. She will follow him. If not she will be replaced by another girl. If she wants to hold hands she will take your hand. Then of course my experience with hand holding has been only disaster. So walking with a girl on a date NEVER feels right and comfortable to me. Weird right?

Thank you again Seppuku!

 

[Seppuku]

OK ElderPrice,

These additional clues are helpful. I hope I can help you to overcome your current sticking points. You easily got 40 dates. This is better than a lot of men out there, so you must be initially doing something right, and you have a very good potential.

Now to the date. I know one thing for sure: if you keep running your dates the same way, you will get the same result. You HAVE to change something and experiment along some different directions.

My current impression:

• Not creating enough tension.
• Maybe over gaming
• Focusing on reactions and not on the outcome.

I am not sure what is going on with your touch. Personally I get amazing results from touching and very rarely have a situation where she doesn't touch back. I take it that I am good at creating sexual tension, and that helps. Also, touching other people comes easy to me, I am very comfortable doing that. I take it that not every one is comfortable with touching. If it feels uncomfortable to you, or un-natural, then it will be uncomfortable to her. Maybe that's your problem?

On the good side, I notice that with this girl, you managed to keep her moving around some extra time in spite of her time constraint, so at least you got some compliance! So if you are able to get that, maybe we should exploit it.

Less fun, more tension

Ultimately we all have different styles, and in the end you will develop a dating style that fits your personality. But for now, I'd like you to step out of your personality a little bit, and drop the "having fun" part - because it is a likely tension killer. I would like you to have a few end-to-end success before you think of incorporating the fun back into the date. I agree it is important to enjoy what we do, but it is even more important to get results. Get results first, then think again about enjoying yourself on date. FYI I did exactly that myself.

The most important for now is to create tension:

• Less energy
• More mystery and "keep her guessing"
• Avoid the laughing for now

Focus on a neutral body language, a neutral facial expression, only smile to reward her good behavior. (Re-) read about Sprezzatura from Chase. (Re-) read the Ricardus article "making girls laugh means nothing". Read all the articles on creating tension.

Always push towards the goal

At the same time, you articulate your date around the desired outcome: pushing to her home. Your aim is to do that on date one. Two dates strategies are a little bit more advanced in my opinion, so always push for date one.

So you need to discreetly poll for her logistics very early and decide if going to her home is realistic. If you think it's not, then you need a fallback plan - a sexual one. I suggest getting a blowjob in the car, but see for yourself what suits you. So very early on you know what is your objective: her home, or the BJ. And you push towards that, no matter what.

Physical comfort and compliance

In any case, you need a minimum of physical contact. Try my minimalist suggestion (i) break the touch barrier very early, and (ii) the selfie thing. If you don't have positive reactions, then don't do much more than that.

Then get her to comply. My own way is to extend my hand, get her hand in mine, then lead her around a little like I described. It also helps with the physical contact. You may want to give it a try. But in any case, get her to comply, whatever your way is.

The date

Stick to a simple date template. There are so many variables going on, so better to go for the simple coffee shop date. Meet her. Dive into her story. You lead the conversation and she does most of the talking. You focus on the sprezzatura and tension. And whatever you do to create compliance. Maybe the compliance part comes easier after the coffee shop is finished, you see what's best.

Then maybe 1h30 into the date, push towards the goal: her home, or your fallback plan (I suggest a BJ in the car). Do that, no matter if you got good or bad reactions. Always push towards the goal and ignore the negatives.

Always remember that you have absolutely nothing to lose, since, most likely, you will never see her again otherwise. If this is your only chance, then take it and go all the way!

That should be significantly different from what you are currently doing. It should be away from your comfort zone. Try it nevertheless and let's see what results you get.

Seppuku

 

[ElderPrice]

Thank you again my friend. I agree with all your logic!

Let me try this. Let me take your suggestions and basically re-write them into a plan for the next few dates in my own words. If for no other reason this will help me organize my thoughts and my plan. And of course if you notice anything that could be better, feel free to recommend an edit. This will also help me make sure I'm incorporating all your suggestions and not missing any.

1. (Long before the date) Re-read about sprezzatura, 'Making Girls Laugh Means Nothing,' and the articles on tension.

2. Arrange date at coffee shop. I assume we will meet there separately. When arranging a spot, I'll ask her about what area of town she lives in, then I'll suggest a place close but not too close to that spot.

3. The #1 thing to focus on, above all else on this date, is to keep my energy low. I will always sit back in the chair and make sure not to lean forward. No smiling during our conversation unless she says something freaking cool. No smiling unless she engages in some sort of behavior that I want... such as a touch back, flirting, leaning forward, etc. If I need a mindset or frame to help me with this, it will be "alright girl #49686, try to impress me. And I don't have all day."

4. The conversation will be deep diving, focusing on Chase's '8 Questions You Must Ask.' Included in this will be polling for her logistics if I don't know them already. I will work to keep her talking as best as possible. I will try as best I can to qualify anything she says that I really like and try to keep the conversation on topics that can involve a connection. I will hold off on sexualizing the conversation. Since the idea is to cut back on the "fun" here, I'll assume that also means cutting back on "fun" comments like this. Similarly, I will do my best to cut back on jokes, to keep laughter to a minimum.

5. Despite this, on some sort of high note in the conversation I'll go for the forearm touch.

6. At some point later in the conversation I'll do the selfie tactic.

7. I can't really visualize how to make hand holding and walking work in this case. I'm assuming the coffee shop is basically on its own with absolutely nothing around it worth walking to. Like, I can't see a valid reason why I'd want to walk around or where I'd lead the girl to. 'Hey baby let me walk you around the parking lot.' lol does that make sense? So for compliance, all I can think of is doing some things in the coffee shop. IE. Saying let's change tables, this chair isn't working for me. Asking her to grab a napkin or straw for me. Saying ehh it's stuffy in here let's sit outside. Ideally all three of those should do the trick, no?

8. Then, no more than 90 minutes into the date, I'll go for the close. Here is my plan for getting back to her place. Feel free to suggest something better if this sounds dumb. First, I figure I'll start by mentioning some things throughout the conversation. For instance what TV shows does she like? With whatever she says, I'll say I haven't seen a single episode of that... or I haven't seen a single good episode of that. Then I'll get off the subject. I think I'll also try asking at some point in the conversation "did you eat beforehand?" Then drop it and change subjects. That way when we've been in the coffee shop long enough I can say "let's get out of here. how about we pick up a snack and you can show me that one episode of xyz?" If she says yes, I'll buy some food ideally at the coffee shop and then get her address or follow her car to her place. If she says no, I'll say "well I'm hungry. Let's grab food somewhere. How about xyz down the street?" If she says yes, I'll suggest we take my car then I'll drop her back off at her car afterward. If she says no to grabbing food then the date is over. If the food portion goes well, then when we both get back in the car to return her to hers, I'll go for the bj. You'll have to tell me how to escalate to this because I cannot visualize for the life of me how this would work. Guess that's what happens when on 100% of my dates the girl never turns on haha. I suppose before getting in the car I can try again asking if we can watch whatever show at her place. If we drove over in separate cars, then I have to push for the close at her place.

Jesus. Look at all that mental work just on the close! I hope you're right that basically lowering my energy can make a huge difference for me in getting girls aroused. If not then all that close stuff is moot! Anyway, what do you think? Thanks again my friend!

 

[Sub-Zero]

@elderprince

Where are you getting all of your dates from ? Cold approach ? Online ?

 

[ElderPrice]

@elderprince

Where are you getting all of your dates from ? Cold approach ? Online ?

The first half or so were only online. At that point I quit online then started the journey of going out to meet girls. My dates since then, about half or so of all the dates I've been on, are from basically only dance class/dance night.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey ElderPrice,

Yeah your plan sounds more or less like I suggested.

What I'm trying to do here is to take an approach radically different from your usual. We've got to change something to what you are doing, since that doesn't work. I suggested a plan based on what I perceived was probably not good.

The three key points: (i) low energy, (ii) getting compliance, and (iii) pull. You need to be strong on (ii).

Ignore the unhelpful signs she may be sending (she will probably resist) and just do it. You may have to use some persistence.

The holding hands thing is easy. Say you guys decided to go to the car. "Let's go!", you say, and extend your hand towards hers (She should put her hand inside yours, but if not, you just grab her hand). Then you walk just slightly ahead, leading her towards the car.

It seems you don't like it? I personally make it work all the time.

This, and the selfie trick, are not necessary after all, but realize that if you are going to try and escalate her, you *need* to have established some degree of physical comfort *before* you start escalating.

If you can't make it to her home, then isolate her in the car, and escalate. Arouse her first by touching her sexually. If she doesn't jump to your crotch, just gently put her hand on it. She will know what to do.

Excuse to pull her home. I personally don't like the movie or show excuse. Once you said that, she will be *expecting* to watch the show. Not very conducive of seduction. I much prefer the music excuse. Music is just there in the background and not too much distracting attention away from the two of you. Well, just saying. Experiment and find what works for you.

Now, reading this:

The first half or so were only online. At that point I quit online then started the journey of going out to meet girls. My dates since then, about half or so of all the dates I've been on, are from basically only dance class/dance night.

It makes me think. How obvious is it to her that you have a romantic intent when you ask her on a date?

The dance class: it makes a perfect excuse to pull. How about practicing a few dance steps at her home?

Seppuku

 

[ElderPrice]

Thanks again man. Hope you had a great Christmas! I'll give all these suggestions a shot.

It makes me think. How obvious is it to her that you have a romantic intent when you ask her on a date?

Umm I think it's obvious. I'll either ask by saying "Are you single? *yes* Would you like to grab coffee sometime?" or with a smile "Do you date guys you meet at salsa night?"

So I do make it clear it's a date and we're not meeting as friends.

 

[BigS]

I was reading this topic and it really resonated with me. I think that when you first make progress somehow, whether its with dates, lays, etc. it's a great feeling and you get comfortable. However, that then becomes the norm for you/me and when a plateau hits, it is natural to compensate with neediness, increased energy and just worrying about why you may not be progressing.

Earlier this month I started reading GC, got a couple of lays, but then have had a dry spell for a couple of weeks. I began getting worried and reacted by increasing my energy at bars and on dates, and guess what--my results didn't get any better!

I think Seppuku's experience comes in handy in this topic because I think he is exactly right (and you have said so yourself)--it is most likely that you are coming across as needy or gaming too hard and would benefit from decreasing your energy level and overall game. I have been doing the exact same thing, so I will decrease my energy as well. I notice that when I have low energy and I dont indicate to girls whether I like them or not, they have a greater chance of chasing me. Whereas if I am the "chaser", there is no sexual tension on their end and they lose interest!

The confusing part here is that when you are high energy and "needy", you will actually have longer conversations with girls and experience more emotions yourself during those conversations (I think). This is deceitful because I think this approach is sucking the energy out of what could be the bedroom, and putting it into your initial interaction. You could save all of that energy for the bedroom once she chases you in there!

I am curious to hear about how your progress will go after making these changes, but I hope it is for the best! I want to see you posting some LR's on here, haha. I will do the same and let you know how my progress goes as well

BigS

 

[ElderPrice]

I was reading this topic and it really resonated with me. I think that when you first make progress somehow, whether its with dates, lays, etc. it's a great feeling and you get comfortable. However, that then becomes the norm for you/me and when a plateau hits, it is natural to compensate with neediness, increased energy and just worrying about why you may not be progressing.

Earlier this month I started reading GC, got a couple of lays, but then have had a dry spell for a couple of weeks. I began getting worried and reacted by increasing my energy at bars and on dates, and guess what--my results didn't get any better!

I think Seppuku's experience comes in handy in this topic because I think he is exactly right (and you have said so yourself)--it is most likely that you are coming across as needy or gaming too hard and would benefit from decreasing your energy level and overall game. I have been doing the exact same thing, so I will decrease my energy as well. I notice that when I have low energy and I dont indicate to girls whether I like them or not, they have a greater chance of chasing me. Whereas if I am the "chaser", there is no sexual tension on their end and they lose interest!

The confusing part here is that when you are high energy and "needy", you will actually have longer conversations with girls and experience more emotions yourself during those conversations (I think). This is deceitful because I think this approach is sucking the energy out of what could be the bedroom, and putting it into your initial interaction. You could save all of that energy for the bedroom once she chases you in there!

I am curious to hear about how your progress will go after making these changes, but I hope it is for the best! I want to see you posting some LR's on here, haha. I will do the same and let you know how my progress goes as well

BigS

Thank you my friend! I'll post as soon as I have another date lined up. Got some new numbers this weekend, but no dates yet. Have a great New Year's!

 

[Científico]

Hey Elder Prince,

Thanks for posting this, and Seppuku's replies are absolute gold. I believe I am in a similar place as you - I have zero problem getting dates, the problem is what happens during the date, and I have a hard time closing successfully. Next time I will try the hand holding thing for sure.

Will be curious to see future FRs from you

Científico

 

[ElderPrice]

Hey Elder Prince,

Thanks for posting this, and Seppuku's replies are absolute gold. I believe I am in a similar place as you - I have zero problem getting dates, the problem is what happens during the date, and I have a hard time closing successfully. Next time I will try the hand holding thing for sure.

Will be curious to see future FRs from you

Científico

No problem! Glad this has been a helpful post. I'll definitely post additional reports as soon as they happen!