FR Did I give up too early?

[ChrisXKiss]

One more...

Approach and texting

Met this girl a month ago, while walking around my area, if I remember correctly I told her something about how feminine she looked, she liked it, but felt a bit reserved. We talked for less than a minute as we were both going somewhere else, and she gave me her number.

After that we planned a date once. She in fact told me that she would inform me if she could eventually make it since she didn't know her exact work schedule. One day before the date she told she can't meet, has to work and she is sorry.

After some days I ping her with a travel pic, we exchange two three messages, I was responding pretty slowly at that point, and she asks firstly when I will be around to go get a coffee, and secondly what I am doing living in this country. I told her when I was coming back, and also that I came here for studies. She responded: "Well we'll talk about it over coffee " and we planned another date.

The day I came back, she said she had an appointment she had forgotten and asked if we could meet later. I told her I had a dance class and I couldn't, asked her how her next days look, and she just responded ok with a smiley emoji.

This Monday I sent a voice message telling her something about my time, and also asking her how she is doing and to tell me when she would be free. She asked me back when I have time, I told her, she responded I am so busy, and then we planned the date for today.

Today I sent a text to confirm the date, she told she need to be late half an hour, I just told her to let me know when she arrives and was honestly ready for another flake. Then she responded she is just having a photoshoot with a crying emoji, I told her I then expect her to look stylish. She answered it's not for her, and that she'll come soon and be in time with a cute face emoji. I said: "Good ;" left my house and we met.

Start of date

When I arrived she was sitting at a bench, she stood up, I went for a hug, and in fact she was quite receptive, she just let herself on me, and she looked like she was attracted by the way her eyes were looking at me. I felt she looked lovely in her dress and I told her, then we started walking towards the open air bar that was very close. I was giving her small leading touches to the back even from then.

Now this girl was Ukrainian, came here after the war and basically didn't really speak english well, so a lot of times she couldn't understand directly the things I was saying, and I felt I couldn't communicate very deeply, In the beginning we just had a very small talk about her day and all the stuff she was caring. She told me she came back from work and that it's her photography equipment, and I also said she may take a picture of me as well, to which I responded we would see, if she is good, meaning a good girl during the date.

We arrived at the bar and in fact I saw a guy I know there at the entrance taking pictures of us as we were walking in. He then came and showed them to both, I was surprised since I hadn't seen him for a while, and he started saying how handsome I look, how much of a great guy I am, that I travel all the time and have a lot of money. Great guy in general, a bit over the top sometimes as you realised. Not even sure if the girl understood all the things he said, I introduced them briefly, he said he would send me the pictures, which he has already done by the way. I asked him briefly what he is up to there, and then we parted ways as we went to order.

While ordering she told me that she is a cook but doesn't like cooking, I asked why she is doing it then, the communication due to the language barrier was slow, and I thought ok let's order first and I go deeper when we sit down. I proposed a drink, she said she would take the same and we took them and went to a couch under the shadow.

Sitting down

As we sat and cheered after the first sip she said the drink is really good and I told her you are welcome. In general it happened that she was looking at me as I was looking at her, diverting her eyes chuckling and asking me what? multiple times throughout the date, even from the beginning. I was mostly responding nothing playfully.

At the couch we were not extremely close, but I felt she had her crossed legs fairly towards my side. I was touching her thighs with my hand from time to time and she didn't seem to be resisting, I was also touching her lower back when she was going towards the front, and one two times throughout the whole stay there I briefly cupped her head.

Conversation wise the first thing I asked of course is why cooking. She told me she had no father, she was extremely poor and had to work from her young years. She couldn't pay for normal university and went to a school for cooking, and it's good because she can find a job everywhere now, and it was easy to find one even in this country. I told her she should feel proud she managed to get out of that situation.

I also asked why she said she doesn't like it, and she said that it's not something she wants to keep doing, she also just works part time now, and what she wants is to get into trading. She told me that she has been investing in crypto, and has been studying by herself, and when I asked if that's her dream she told me it's not a dream, it's a goal she is in the process of fulfilling. I complimented her on that and told her that I love especially women who have clear goals and at the same time can stay feminine.

She asked me back a bit what I did and why I came here, I firstly said:"Look at it, it's beautiful", and then I told her I came for studies, I did physics and wanted to understand how the world works. Didn't talk more about it and went back to her asking about her childhood.

She told me that every year of her childhood was getting better and better, and eventually she came here all the way by herself and she is managing. I complimented her independence, asked if she likes freedom, she told me yes, I told her I also love living my life free and not having people telling me what to do. She also told me that this is why she doesn't want to stay as a cook, but she also doesn't want to be a chef, because she cannot be the one giving orders. And she said that with a cutish smile, so I told her she does look too sweet for that.

Some things to mention here is that she did not ask many things back, because i think she wasn't confident in formulating questions in English, and also we had some breaks and silent moments where we just looked at each other as I said, and during one she even told me she is shy. I think I said something along the lines of it being cute. Another thing is that to be honest I was not feeling some crazy desire for her, yes she was cute, but I think her shyness wasn't fuelling me a lot, I caught myself many times looking in front and noticing some other confident girls that were sitting around. I didn't like that I did that, so I was trying to keep myself focused, but during some of the breaks in the conversation, when I was looking towards the front sipping on my drink it was happening instinctively.

She told me that I look very calm, and that I also move very elegantly with posture while she slouches, I was telling her she looked fine. I touched and asked about a big tattoo on her arm, she said it was about how family is her protection and she values it, and she also showed me a pendant she had which is a symbol of Ukraine I didn't know.

I asked her if she has travelled, she said not really but she wants a lot, and I said if she likes experiencing the world, she said yes, and I told her I really like that in people. I also asked if she is spontaneous or likes planning, and she said she does plan things in her life for her future, but also said that she is spontaneous smiling.

I then asked about photography, she had mentioned earlier in passing that this is her real passion. She told me that she just loves appreciating the beauty, even the scenery we have in front of us, she wants to capture it and a lot of her friends don't understand. I told her I do appreciate the beauty of the world a lot as well, was also looking at her during that, and I love art and I have some nice paintings at my place I may show her at some point.

I then asked her how she likes connecting with people, she didn't exactly get it, so I asked what she likes in people. She said people who don't sit around and do nothing, and have a life and goals, I asked about guys as well and she told me that she has spent a lot of time emotionally supporting guys that had no direction, and at last she wants someone that can support her. I told her that it is difficult indeed as most guys are either too needy and just want the girl no matter what, while others just want her for sex and don't care about anything else. She also told me that she is romantic.

Around that time I started feeling some uneasy energy from her, not sure if it was excitement of just nervousness but she felt somehow, and I proposed we go check some other place close by. She agreed quickly and even downed her drink fast since we were not really finished.

Second Location and pull attempt

We stood up and starting walking, I asked about her photography again since I saw her carrying all these thing and she told me that she has collaboration with some agency that send her people to take photos. As we were walking she looked fairly happy and excited, we still kept exchanging this kind of eye contact that she was breaking, and she asked me what I like in women or girls. I jokingly said all of them, and then I told her I appreciate the feminine energy they have because it can complete me as a man and she seemed to agree.

As we were going up that place with the nice view, she asked me what I do for fun. I told her I dance, she remembered that I had mentioned it in my texts, she asked me what and I told her ballroom, like waltz, she couldn't understand what it was so I said I may show her later. I also told her I act and probably that's my biggest artistic passion close to what she feels about photography.

We were arriving at the top of that area and as we were looking at the view, she was saying she wanted to go take some pictures and she would put me there to hold the camera to take them, and I simply said yeah sure and told her to come up. Then at the top we sat together. In fact this time when I went to sat down with her she seemed more distant leaning back against the opposite side of the bench, or at least that's how it felt, I don't remember something particular happening to trigger that.

Somehow the conversation went back to relationships fairly naturally, she mentioned that she had a boyfriend in the past and I asked her where back in Ukraine, she said no here. Then I asked what happened and they split up. She told me he was treating her badly, like abusing her, and I could see distress on her face. Then she told me that's why she needs time to open up and get to know a person. I told her, that's normal trust is important and you have to know that someone cares about you.

Then she said yeah, and now she can recognise who wants her as a friend, just for sex or for more. I said yeah but you can never really plan for more right away you have to get to know the person, and she agreed. She also mentioned something about marriage, I asked if she want to get married, she said yes, I told her I would like it at some point as well, but right now I am more into exploring the world and living life.

And I said that you can find someone you trust and that cares about you whether you meet for a week or for years, and I believe that the important thing is living with passion, exploring and connecting with each other. She was there silent, so since she had previously said she was hungry, I asked her if she wanted to go eat something. She said yes, so I told her we could go to my place, I have some food.

She said she is not coming to my place she doesn't even know me, and I told her what she thinks is gonna happen, I'm gonna jump on her the moment we get in? She was like no, so I said ok let's go for 10 minutes to get something quick and chill and it is too hot out in the sun. She agreed with the last part but still didn't want to come so I told her to just go and walk for a bit.

Trying to salvage whatever I can

As we were going down that area, the truth is that I was kinda zoned out. I mean I simply felt that ok another date that leads nowhere, and wasn't even sure what else to talk about and how to turn it around to have her come to my place. For this reason and because I wasn't really talking a lot, she told me I look sad now. I told her why she thinks that, and I am not sad, and also that she looks now more relaxed. And it wasn't exactly sadness, it was probably this disappointment of reaching another wasted evening with no result.

When we got to the ground area, there was a mention of my dancing again and I grabbed her and told her I would show her. We came close I tried to hold her with proper frame and do basic waltz steps but after one or two she broke it saying she feels she is too bad. I feel it could have been because during the hold we did come too close and there was some tension there.

We started walking and honestly my plan was to just walk up to my place's door and invite her up. I've heard people making that work and I wanted to try it for a while. During the walk though, because of the tension that existed previously, I decided to simply pull her in for a kiss. She resisted a bit, I saw her keeping her head away, so I do think I could have manhandled kissed her there, but in the end I left it.

I think it was a mix of me thinking:"What I am even trying, she is clearly not there", and also thinking I could stay chill after the failed kiss to build intrigue, and go harder into it later. I started talking about something else immediately, but in general I wasn't sure what else to discuss to move things forward, so I kept being silent a lot, making comments about the sun, and how beautiful it is to enjoy it in a day like this. I think I was losing the interest to talk more, because I was again thinking what's the point, what can I even say to change this, so I was simply remaining calm and leading, having decided to go for a hard push outside my place.

When we arrived at my door I invited her in, she told me no I can go and she will leave, I told her again only for ten minutes we get some food and she leaves, she said she wasn't hungry now, I told her I wanted to show her my paintings and play her some guitar, she said maybe the next time. I told her I am leaving for a trip next week and we don't know when that next time could be and that we should leave our lives everyday, she still said no, so I told her I enjoyed my time with her and I would like to spend more, she was still saying no that it is her decision. I told her what she thinks would happen, she said I just tried to kiss her, I told her that's how I felt and I stopped, she said she just doesn't know me that well and cannot trust me, we met once outside and then during this time today. I told her again what if she comes for a second for some water she said she is not thirsty. I even told her that she makes me feel like I am doing something bad or I'm gonna harm her, as a weird manipulation attempt, she said no she doesn't want that and she believes it's safe, it is just her decision. I also spent some time just leaning against my building's wall looking at her like the whole evening and she again told me that I looked sad.

Eventually I asked her what she needed to take to go home, and she said she would find her way. So I opened the door with my key, gave her my hand as an invitation in the building and she just gave me a handshake, and then I told her to come in for a hug as well, she said no, so I wished her all the best, and went inside.

I sent her a text later saying it was a nice time and hope she went home safe, and she said" I'm at home. Thank you."

Conclusions

My feelings are weird about this one, because although the last report frustrated me for not being in control, this one was like a whatever I'm not even gonna try more for this.

I don't know if I didn't like her enough, she was cute in fact, just pretty shy and sweet, and in a way it didn't excite me a lot, so my mind was mostly in what process to follow to get her to bed. It is also the first time I try to transition between these specific venues in my area, so I also wanted to test how it would work from a technical standpoint.

I think the worst part was at the second venue, how short the stay was there. It was a pretty hot day outside, so surely not a nice area to stay up there long with these conditions, and I should keep that in mind. Also how I tried to pull home immediately after talking about sex and exploring life, it was probably too obvious, and then the situation wasn't redeemable, since I just didn't know what to do.

I guess I could walk around more with her or go somewhere for food, but for what reason, it felt to me that there was no way to pull today, maybe I was wrong and I could have spent some more time on her, getting a result eventually. The whole date I described was an hour and a half at most.

I simply got the feeling that I would waste more time just talking with her, to eventually get to what, have her like me enough to give me a potential opening for being a husband?

I also wanted to try some of these things, like taking her all the way to my place, inviting her up and if she says no just ending it. Normally whatever they say or do I stay with them until the very end to create a good impression, but it never improved the results after a failed pull or escalation, so I think it's better use of my time just letting them go themselves. The city is safe, they'll find a way.

All in all though, I do think that my real issue is that women like this one simply don't excite me enough. And it's really not the looks, I would say that this girl had a prettier face than the one two days ago. But something about the whole vibe of them being shy and liking me makes me approach the situation very mechanically, as in what are the right steps to sleep with her. And in the end I don't even sleep with them, because they can feel I'm just following a process to get there.

I don't feel bad per se though, since I really wouldn't be going for a boyfriend/husband role with her, so giving her false hopes would be worse. I do want to understand though what I can do to have these girls at least agree for a quick fling. I'm sure attraction wasn't the issue, but if you need something like 7+ hours for connection just to have sex with a random girl you are not that crazy about, it feels like I would prefer to spend this time on other girls I could move faster with.

 

[Will_V]

@ChrisXKiss it's pretty hard to maintain a date when you're not feeling chemistry. I also tend to go for more assertive and passionate girls and I don't get turned on by the cute and sweet type. I mean sure you can be a soldier about it and complete the mission, but personally I am not a notches sort of guy and these girls also can be a bit clingy. You could round out the date, tell her you had a good time, and go off to meet some more attractive girls, and maybe that's what you should have done here.

What I usually do, if she's still somewhat attractive to me, is start disqualifying myself. I'll tell her that she looks way too sweet and cute for me, that I'm probably not the sort of guy she's going to be able to hold onto, that I'd take her to bed and make her fall in love and then leave her, etc etc. If she's really shy and naive she'll just get confused and the date will end rather quickly (so much the better). Or she might become intrigued and excited, and now there's real tension. And a number of things happen:

- I can be honest and self-expressive
- If she really wants some sweet and supportive boyfriend, she can find it elsewhere
- If she comes home with me she's doing it because she wants what I've got on offer i.e. an exciting experience

And a girl who is cute and sweet, who is suddenly exploring a much more naughty side of the world, is much more attractive and erotic to me than one who is coming home thinking I'm her next kisses-and-cuddles boyfriend.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

it's pretty hard to maintain a date when you're not feeling chemistry. I also tend to go for more assertive and passionate girls and I don't get turned on by the cute and sweet type. I mean sure you can be a soldier about it and complete the mission, but personally I am not a notches sort of guy and these girls also can be a bit clingy. You could round out the date, tell her you had a good time, and go off to meet some more attractive girls, and maybe that's what you should have done here.

Yeah, right now I am doing it for the experience and the skill, trying to push through as much as I can, but generally I like this approach. I mean I felt a bit bad with how I finished it today, exactly because she was this type, burnt by other guys as well, so I feel I kinda gave her an extra impression that yeah men are only about sex.

What I usually do, if she's still somewhat attractive to me, is start disqualifying myself. I'll tell her that she looks way too sweet and cute for me, that I'm probably not the sort of guy she's going to be able to hold onto, that I'd take her to bed and make her fall in love and then leave her, etc etc. If she's really shy and naive she'll just get confused and the date will end rather quickly (so much the better). Or she might become intrigued and excited, and now there's real tension. And a number of things happen:

And I love this.

I was thinking of being extremely explicit like telling her I don't do serious relationships, and I sleep around, just to get it out there and let her decide if she wants to stay or not. But something wasn't sticking well with this idea.

And now that you described the disqualification I realised what it was. By disqualifying yourself you show that you care about her, you want her best, and basically give her a warning about you. With that I was thinking it just feels like you care about yourself and your pleasure only and she can decide to be a part of it or not, forcing her to make a decision.

But by disqualifying yourself you are still transparent and simply give her the free choice to either stay there with you if she is intrigued or leave if not. And this also makes you feel more outcome independent and as a result more attractive.

 

[Gorili]

@ChrisXKiss,

To answer the question in the title, no you didn't give up too early. Instead, there was too much unnecessary persistence in the end.

But thinking big picture, I think you need to give yourself more credit here than you think you deserve. Look on the bright side. You have multiple dates lined up each week. This would be a dream come true for a lot of people out there

I also really enjoy how you cram in so many details in these reports.

---

The main concerns that I got from reading this report are below:

• Not having the right frames set for a quick pull, especially during those times when she says unhelpful things that are bad for a quick pull and you just letting it slide
• There is incongruence between how you're presenting yourself and what you hope to achieve with this girl. I know @Will_V mentioned congruence previously, but I arrived at this conclusion independent of his analysis
• Moving too fast (faster than what the girl is ready for) and not listening to her
• Timing of the kisses (this comes up in a few reports, not just this one)

Now this girl was Ukrainian, came here after the war and basically didn't really speak english well, so a lot of times she couldn't understand directly the things I was saying, and I felt I couldn't communicate very deeply

In these situations, it would be very helpful to have a translation app handy on your phone. On an iPhone, there's the default Translate app. The best ones allow voice-to-text, so it's much quicker than having to type everything out, and they have quick two-way translation to switch back and forth. If either of you is trying to get a very important but nuanced point across, this is where the app will help a lot. It might seem a bit awkward at first using an app instead of talking directly, but the translator app is your friend.

She told me she came back from work and that it's her photography equipment, and I also said she may take a picture of me as well, to which I responded we would see, if she is good, meaning a good girl during the date.

This is exactly the type of stuff that we want to keep her on her toes and for rewarding good behaviors in general.

We arrived at the bar and in fact I saw a guy I know there at the entrance taking pictures of us as we were walking in. He then came and showed them to both, I was surprised since I hadn't seen him for a while, and he started saying how handsome I look, how much of a great guy I am, that I travel all the time and have a lot of money. Great guy in general, a bit over the top sometimes as you realised. Not even sure if the girl understood all the things he said, I introduced them briefly, he said he would send me the pictures, which he has already done by the way. I asked him briefly what he is up to there, and then we parted ways as we went to order.

Social proof and homie trying to pump you up. Great guy to have

In general it happened that she was looking at me as I was looking at her, diverting her eyes chuckling and asking me what? multiple times throughout the date, even from the beginning.

She's the shy and nervous, but excited type.

At the couch we were not extremely close, but I felt she had her crossed legs fairly towards my side. I was touching her thighs with my hand from time to time and she didn't seem to be resisting, I was also touching her lower back when she was going towards the front, and one two times throughout the whole stay there I briefly cupped her head.

These are positive signs. Note that she's comfortable early in the interaction.

She told me she had no father, she was extremely poor and had to work from her young years. She couldn't pay for normal university and went to a school for cooking, and it's good because she can find a job everywhere now, and it was easy to find one even in this country. I told her she should feel proud she managed to get out of that situation.

It would be great if you could link an example to yourself to build similarity, assuming you have one. For example, you had to flip burgers at McDonald's starting in your junior year of high school cuz you wanted to be financially independent and not rely on your parents forever. Then go through your tough experience doing this. This cements the point that the 2 of you are on the same boat and come from similar backgrounds

I asked her if she has travelled, she said not really but she wants a lot, and I said if she likes experiencing the world, she said yes, and I told her I really like that in people. I also asked if she is spontaneous or likes planning, and she said she does plan things in her life for her future, but also said that she is spontaneous smiling.

I feel like these are topics that you could have significantly expanded. In addition, the sex talk could have been introduced early here naturally.

I asked about guys as well and she told me that she has spent a lot of time emotionally supporting guys that had no direction

I would've definitely challenged her on why she keeps doing that. For example, is she a clingy girl that can't move on once she latches onto a guy? If so, this shows poor judgment on her end. Up to this point, it seems you haven't teased or challenged her too much, and the sailing's been too smooth. You qualify her on a lot of her positives, but we also have to speak up on points where we need clarification or are skeptical about. You gotta make it seem like she's actively trying to win you over.

and at last she wants someone that can support her

What does this even mean? Is she looking for a boyfriend that's gonna pay her rent? Is she trying to find a husband to settle down so she can be a stay at home mom? Are you auditioning to be in either of these roles?

It might seem harmless at first, but these types of ambivalent, open-ended, boyfriendy frames that she's throwing out there aren't gonna help with a quick pull if you continue to let it slide. You haven't mentioned what you're looking for at all, so if you let her keep piling on these ideas while staying silent, she will and it's gonna snowball down the line to the point where you won't be able to recover.

This is the type of stuff that I'm referring to all the way at the beginning.

She also told me that she is romantic.

Same as the above. She's piling on. Romantic in what way? Romantic as in 5 dates and flowers each time before a pull? If so, that's not gonna help our mission here. Need to dig in, find out, and actively address it if it's bad. Staying silent or saying haha won't work.

You come off as someone who likes to avoid confrontation, but you need to step in here. Going forward, just imagine that every time she's bringing up unhelpful frames, she's secretly insulting you. That will get you to act.

As we were walking she looked fairly happy and excited, we still kept exchanging this kind of eye contact that she was breaking, and she asked me what I like in women or girls. I jokingly said all of them, and then I told her I appreciate the feminine energy they have because it can complete me as a man and she seemed to agree.

This was a serious missed opportunity to set highly important frames that could dictate the rest of the interaction in your favor. Again, remember what is our mission here? A quick pull. "Feminine energy" is not enough, especially given the frames that she set right before this. She's trying to fit you in the provider slot.

Keywords for this response (this is when the translator app comes in handy even if she can't understand a single word in English): fun, spontaneous, adventurous, thrill-seeking, a girl who goes for what she wants, a girl who is able to fully release herself and let go, living in the moment, making fond memories, anything about breaking societal norms, living life to its fullest, etc.

She will understand what these words imply and what type of guy you are after hearing them.

Alternatively, you could've gone for some outrageous response like "a girl who's a pro at sucking dick. Just kidding." This will disqualify you as a nice guy.

In fact this time when I went to sat down with her she seemed more distant leaning back against the opposite side of the bench, or at least that's how it felt, I don't remember something particular happening to trigger that.

She's been waiting for you to take the lead for a while since you guys were at the bar, but now she's running the show. Attraction has dropped

Then she told me that's why she needs time to open up and get to know a person. I told her, that's normal trust is important and you have to know that someone cares about you.

Again, she's trying to dictate the terms.

However, this was not the optimal response. She said she needs time, and you're agreeing with her. This is going against our mission.

I got you though (heavily field tested):

"You know, the connections that we make with people can sometimes happen so quickly. Human emotions are fascinating, aren’t they? When we’re in a new situation, sometimes it might take years… maybe months… maybe days… maybe even seconds [snap fingers]… but we always have a sense it could be a very special type of connection"

I normally use this within 10 mins of meeting them. It might not be as impactful here as her frames have already snowballed and solidified.

I told her I would like it at some point as well, but right now I am more into exploring the world and living life.

And I said that you can find someone you trust and that cares about you whether you meet for a week or for years, and I believe that the important thing is living with passion, exploring and connecting with each other. She was there silent, so since she had previously said she was hungry

This is what we want. Should've arrived earlier, but better late than never.

So in these scenarios where she's silent, I like to use "don't you think so?" This way, it makes it more likely that she'll agree with you before she even opens her mouth.

She said she is not coming to my place she doesn't even know me, and I told her what she thinks is gonna happen, I'm gonna jump on her the moment we get in? She was like no, so I said ok let's go for 10 minutes to get something quick and chill and it is too hot out in the sun. She agreed with the last part but still didn't want to come so I told her to just go and walk for a bit.

She's not ready yet, but I like how you had an alternative solution. I would've suggested something concrete like a park nearby. We need another bounce... or two.

For this reason and because I wasn't really talking a lot, she told me I look sad now. I told her why she thinks that, and I am not sad, and also that she looks now more relaxed. And it wasn't exactly sadness, it was probably this disappointment of reaching another wasted evening with no result.

It seems like she's gotten the upper hand so to speak, so that's why she's relaxed. Things are going her way. Bad for us.

When we got to the ground area, there was a mention of my dancing again and I grabbed her and told her I would show her. We came close I tried to hold her with proper frame and do basic waltz steps but after one or two she broke it saying she feels she is too bad. I feel it could have been because during the hold we did come too close and there was some tension there.

"Hey, don't be shy. There's a first time for everything. Let's try this dance again. We're gonna go slower this time, ok? Ready? One, two, three."

During the walk though, because of the tension that existed previously, I decided to simply pull her in for a kiss. She resisted a bit, I saw her keeping her head away, so I do think I could have manhandled kissed her there, but in the end I left it.

She doesn't even wanna do a simple dance with you, and you're rewarding her with a kiss??

Note the negative compliance has already snowballed: the failed pull home for food, dancing, kissing...

When we arrived at my door I invited her in, she told me no I can go and she will leave, I told her again only for ten minutes we get some food and she leaves, she said she wasn't hungry now, I told her I wanted to show her my paintings and play her some guitar, she said maybe the next time. I told her I am leaving for a trip next week and we don't know when that next time could be and that we should leave our lives everyday, she still said no, so I told her I enjoyed my time with her and I would like to spend more, she was still saying no that it is her decision. I told her what she thinks would happen, she said I just tried to kiss her, I told her that's how I felt and I stopped, she said she just doesn't know me that well and cannot trust me, we met once outside and then during this time today. I told her again what if she comes for a second for some water she said she is not thirsty. I even told her that she makes me feel like I am doing something bad or I'm gonna harm her, as a weird manipulation attempt, she said no she doesn't want that and she believes it's safe, it is just her decision. I also spent some time just leaning against my building's wall looking at her like the whole evening and she again told me that I looked sad.

Eventually I asked her what she needed to take to go home, and she said she would find her way. So I opened the door with my key, gave her my hand as an invitation in the building and she just gave me a handshake, and then I told her to come in for a hug as well, she said no, so I wished her all the best, and went inside.

This is... just terrible.

You're not listening to what she's telling you nor her explanation. She says no like 10 times. This is ginormous negative compliance.

Active persistence will not work here. She is very clear in her thinking that this isn't going anywhere even before this. I would've just hugged her bye as I reached my doorsteps. Then tell her to text you once she's home so you know she's safe, win a little bit of the frame back, and aim for date 2.

I sent her a text later saying it was a nice time and hope she went home safe, and she said" I'm at home. Thank you."

I'm surprised she even responded. When she looks back on this interaction, the failed persistence at your door is going to have the strongest impact and linger the most in her mind. Fingers crossed, but the odds aren't looking very good here

 

[Atlas IV]

@Gorili Dude, I am learning SO much from your analyses of these LRs. All your points here are absolutely bang on, like someone who has been in the game a long time.

What a great addition to the community. Hope you stick around!

 

[ChrisXKiss]

The main concerns that I got from reading this report are below:

• Not having the right frames set for a quick pull, especially during those times when she says unhelpful things that are bad for a quick pull and you just letting it slide
• There is incongruence between how you're presenting yourself and what you hope to achieve with this girl. I know @Will_V mentioned congruence previously, but I arrived at this conclusion independent of his analysis
• Moving too fast (faster than what the girl is ready for) and not listening to her
• Timing of the kisses (this comes up in a few reports, not just this one)

I see your points.

For the first one I think I simply go like that, so that she doesn't autoreject if I set frames she doesn't like early. My idea is that the more time we spend together the more comfortable she gets with me and in the end she will accept my leading towards where I want it. I'm kinda trying to let her freely present her frames to know exactly what I am dealing with, in order to reframe it eventually. But I should be more proactive in general.

For the second point, the thing is that I do want something more sexually casual for the beginning, but again I feel if I make it too clear they will autoreject, like I don't want them for anything else. So I'm trying to show I understand and care about them by flowing with the conversation and eventually go for my frames and the pull when they have felt relaxed around me. Again though I should probably be more proactive on setting the right frames, from the start.

For the third point yeah, the moving too fast is just me trying not to lose windows by going slower, so I guess it's more of a practice that I will calibrate with time. I did want to be going for the close whenever I could just to know I tried. The listening part I agree it looks like that, the thing is I do understand where they are a lot of times, but I just feel if I don't do something drastic or persist harder they will simply leave and we won't meet again anyway. Because that's the thing, I almost never get second dates no matter how the first one went, and the few I have gotten went even slower than the first one, so I realised there is no point in angling for that and should just go all in during the first trying whatever I can to lead it to bed.

Regarding the kisses I see what you mean. Honestly my main kissing plan is to do it back in the seduction location. There are times I have tried it before that, but it didn't help much when going for the pull later. What I have been trying these last dates is a bit off timing indeed. My general idea is that I went for a pull, she declined, so if we go on like this and we part ways the whole date was basically a platonic conversation. So my thinking is to go for the kiss, to really show her that I am indeed interested and will make a move. And then whether she rejects it or not she knows what I am about and the frame of the interaction not being platonic has been set.

That is at least why I went for it after the failed pulling attempts, thinking that we don't have the whole night anyway so I have to do something drastic to show her where this can go. Because for me the worst scenario is that they reject the kiss and we don't meet again, which is something that I would expect whether I try to kiss or not, and the best is they accept the kiss so the frame we are a thing sexually has been set and we can go from there. The pulling attempt has already failed at that point so I don't really think it can affect it negatively anyway.

In these situations, it would be very helpful to have a translation app handy on your phone. On an iPhone, there's the default Translate app. The best ones allow voice-to-text, so it's much quicker than having to type everything out, and they have quick two-way translation to switch back and forth. If either of you is trying to get a very important but nuanced point across, this is where the app will help a lot. It might seem a bit awkward at first using an app instead of talking directly, but the translator app is your friend.

Yeah I could have done that. The thing is I have done it with girls that don't speak English at all, but in these situations where they do but they are just not that comfortable with the language I have felt it would break the vibe a bit. Better to be able to express yourselves clearly though.

It would be great if you could link an example to yourself to build similarity, assuming you have one. For example, you had to flip burgers at McDonald's starting in your junior year of high school cuz you wanted to be financially independent and not rely on your parents forever. Then go through your tough experience doing this. This cements the point that the 2 of you are on the same boat and come from similar backgrounds

Yeah don't really have anything similar but I see your point. I guess the closest I could think of is what I am doing now, looking for a job unrelated with my degree, with no particular support by any connections.

I feel like these are topics that you could have significantly expanded. In addition, the sex talk could have been introduced early here naturally.

That's interesting. I didn't expand a lot on travels since she said she hadn't done it, but in the right way I could have her feel how it would be and also inspire her.

Regarding the sex talk, I simply feel I leave it for later in the interaction so that there is more comfort between us for her to open up. The bad thing though is that I feel I am running out of time by then and I have to present all my frames about sex quickly. I was afraid that if I went for it so fast I would get major push back, but probably introducing it from the beginning can help both time wise and frame wise.

I would've definitely challenged her on why she keeps doing that. For example, is she a clingy girl that can't move on once she latches onto a guy? If so, this shows poor judgment on her end. Up to this point, it seems you haven't teased or challenged her too much, and the sailing's been too smooth. You qualify her on a lot of her positives, but we also have to speak up on points where we need clarification or are skeptical about. You gotta make it seem like she's actively trying to win you over.

I see what you mean. I think I am not challenging them that much on these fronts, because I clearly don't want to be her boyfriend so I don't really care how she is with them. I was also afraid that by asking these things she would even feel I am interested in her as a girlfriend which was not the frame I wanted to set. I should probably inject more teases and challenging material, even if I don't really care about it in general, just because it is effective on building the connection.

It's true that I don't tease much though. With her she felt so shy and sweet that I thought it would be too much to pressure her more heavily, she already felt quite attracted to me. But I suppose it's a general issue I have that after I settle into an interaction I have this feeling that ok, now we like each other, so what's left is to get comfortable, build some trust, set the idea that having casual sex is good and go for it.

I should probably inject more teases and challenging material, even if I don't really care about it in general, just because it is effective on building the connection.

What does this even mean? Is she looking for a boyfriend that's gonna pay her rent? Is she trying to find a husband to settle down so she can be a stay at home mom? Are you auditioning to be in either of these roles?

It might seem harmless at first, but these types of ambivalent, open-ended, boyfriendy frames that she's throwing out there aren't gonna help with a quick pull if you continue to let it slide. You haven't mentioned what you're looking for at all, so if you let her keep piling on these ideas while staying silent, she will and it's gonna snowball down the line to the point where you won't be able to recover.

This is the type of stuff that I'm referring to all the way at the beginning.

The word support was probably not the right one here, I don't think she even used it. In fact she said he wants someone strong, stronger than her. I asked her what she means and she said that she needs someone than can be emotionally strong that won't be coming to her all the time for reassurance. That she has done that a lot and at last she wants someone that she can be reassured by. Not her exact words, but more or less the message.

I understand what you mean though. I think that again since I didn't ever plan to become that for her, I brushed it off like it's not for me, I am gonna set my sexual frames later and if she wants what I present she will come. I do feel you are right though, and letting a girl talk about all that gets her in the headspace that I could be evaluated for this role and later it feels even more sudden if I present something different.

You come off as someone who likes to avoid confrontation, but you need to step in here. Going forward, just imagine that every time she's bringing up unhelpful frames, she's secretly insulting you. That will get you to act.

This is true. I suppose in these scenarios I avoid it because I feel it would be more effective like that, and if I go combative it will alienate us. So I am like better to have her feel at ease, and as she gets more comfortable, strike with my frames then and go to seal the deal.

This is at least how I have been going at it with less sexually open girls. But maybe if I am more playful, sexual and clear throughout the whole interaction I will be more congruent with what I want, and we will have communication on a more helpful basis seduction wise.

This was a serious missed opportunity to set highly important frames that could dictate the rest of the interaction in your favor. Again, remember what is our mission here? A quick pull. "Feminine energy" is not enough, especially given the frames that she set right before this. She's trying to fit you in the provider slot.

Keywords for this response (this is when the translator app comes in handy even if she can't understand a single word in English): fun, spontaneous, adventurous, thrill-seeking, a girl who goes for what she wants, a girl who is able to fully release herself and let go, living in the moment, making fond memories, anything about breaking societal norms, living life to its fullest, etc.

She will understand what these words imply and what type of guy you are after hearing them.

Alternatively, you could've gone for some outrageous response like "a girl who's a pro at sucking dick. Just kidding." This will disqualify you as a nice guy.

Now that I think about it, it's probable that I did say something like that. That I like feminine women who go after what they want as well, are open minded and want to live life to the fullest. I'm saying it because that's generally how I would answer this more or less. Sometimes I mention things during the interaction and then don't remember exactly when I did.

I do agree with your whole idea of this being a great opportunity I should make use of though.

She's been waiting for you to take the lead for a while since you guys were at the bar, but now she's running the show. Attraction has dropped

Interesting that you say that, what do you mean with taking the lead exactly, conversationally? Because I didn't feel in the back seat that much, I was asking her all the time, she was feeling pretty into me, I was even thinking of going for the pull straight after the bar at some point with how she was looking at me.

But then it feels strange to me if this was really an escalation window, because few minutes later I went for the pull at the other location and she was adamant about not coming home.

Again, she's trying to dictate the terms.

However, this was not the optimal response. She said she needs time, and you're agreeing with her. This is going against our mission.

I got you though (heavily field tested):

"You know, the connections that we make with people can sometimes happen so quickly. Human emotions are fascinating, aren’t they? When we’re in a new situation, sometimes it might take years… maybe months… maybe days… maybe even seconds [snap fingers]… but we always have a sense it could be a very special type of connection"

I normally use this within 10 mins of meeting them. It might not be as impactful here as her frames have already snowballed and solidified.

Yeah in fact I was going for something like this, but I couldn't formulate it well at that moment.

Interesting that you introduce it so fast. I think that's my main issue that I wait to introduce my frames later, basically as reframes to everything she has presented, in order to scout what exactly she is about in the beginning and what I will have to reframe.

Should start imposing my own frames more all around.

So in these scenarios where she's silent, I like to use "don't you think so?" This way, it makes it more likely that she'll agree with you before she even opens her mouth.

Nice.

She's not ready yet, but I like how you had an alternative solution. I would've suggested something concrete like a park nearby. We need another bounce... or two.

Yeah, I should have some other alternatives to go and chill for these scenarios. I think at that moment I really felt that ok this is not going to work, just go and push through with whatever you can, no point wasting your time chilling with her more.

If I believed that by going to another location and spending more time with her I would increase my chances for the pull, I would have done it. I just felt that I didn't know how to really frame the whole situation in a way that we would end up getting sexual fast, no matter if we had one extra hour or more.

Probably it has to do with the already established frames you mentioned. I was thinking that so now what, do I keep trying to present frames of sexual openness, she doesn't seem to accept them

"Hey, don't be shy. There's a first time for everything. Let's try this dance again. We're gonna go slower this time, ok? Ready? One, two, three."

I like this, kinda went for it, but she was backing off resisting so didn't want to persist too much.

She doesn't even wanna do a simple dance with you, and you're rewarding her with a kiss??

Note the negative compliance has already snowballed: the failed pull home for food, dancing, kissing...

Yeah that's the thing, I know this created negative compliance, but I was thinking what else could I try? I wanted something powerful that could maybe excite her and change the vibe of the interaction to a more intimate one. As I said in the beginning for the kiss, my idea was that I would probably not pull her or see her again anyway, so why not go for it and see what we can make out of it. At least she will feel I am a man who takes action.

So I understand that these steps are not creating anything good, but I just don't know what else to do after a failed pull attempt. Go and chill somewhere else for a bit and try again? I have also tried that in the past but it never seemed to work really, if they had rejected the pull once, they rarely decided later ok let's go.

This is... just terrible.

You're not listening to what she's telling you nor her explanation. She says no like 10 times. This is ginormous negative compliance.

Active persistence will not work here. She is very clear in her thinking that this isn't going anywhere even before this. I would've just hugged her bye as I reached my doorsteps. Then tell her to text you once she's home so you know she's safe, win a little bit of the frame back, and aim for date 2.

Yeah my point here is that I wanted to persist like that. One reason is because I am trying to build my muscle to be persistent and either going for it today or never. Another reason is that I really believe as I said that even if I didn't persist I would not see her again anyway, so I had nothing to lose by burning this to the ground. Or that's how I thought.

And regarding listening, I did know she was saying no. I was basically testing how much I can persist through that and if it is possible with enough push to get her in. So it was more a mindset of no matter how many nos she says, as long as you can come up with a different excuse or angle to get her in you throw it at her.

I have had situations in the past that I did what you proposed, hugging her and parting ways on better terms, but I didn't see much results or second dates, so I thought for a while let's just go for first date sex or never.

Won't say this was the most effective way to do it, but it was my mindset behind it.

I'm surprised she even responded. When she looks back on this interaction, the failed persistence at your door is going to have the strongest impact and linger the most in her mind. Fingers crossed, but the odds aren't looking very good here

I was surprised myself in fact. And I'm not expecting anything more really, wouldn't have pushed that hard if I did anyway. But I did want to show that I cared at least a tiny bit that she is well. Will send her my friend's pictures as well.