FU didn't go for the kiss at the most crucial time

[Big Daddy]

Hey gents,

I'll give you the TL;DR version of the night right away. My friend was having a house party at his place with a couple of friends, and his girlfriend took a friend of hers there. We (group of 5) were talking when the girl and her friend arrived, so they just sat (her friend sat right next to me), and after being introduced, me and the people who were already there continued to talk to the group.

After a couple of minutes, I thought I'd give this girl a go, and tried to be quieter (I'm kinda loud when I'm in groups haha) and tried to follow all the not-so-talkative-alpha-male-sprezzatura stuff. After a while I started talking directly to her. Tried to deep dive (didn't quiite pull that right), and soon after that, everybody left us alone.

After deep diving a little too much, I realized I was going to miss the window to go for the kiss, but we were in different seats in front of each other, and I wouldn't know how to go for the kiss smoothly. At this point, I ran out of things to ask / talk about, and things became awkward. After more awkwardness, her friend got back and said she was leaving, so we all left and I did not ask her phone number or anything (was too busy blaming myself for the missed window ). After that, she obviously told my friend's girl her thoughts on me, which then told him, and finally, he told me that she thought that:

- I was quiet in the beginning, but when I started talked directly to her I was OK, and that she liked me.
- If I had asked for her phone number, she'd had given it to me [commentary: which means she'd probably would've been OK with the kiss, too].

So, I think I'm missing something here but can't see what. Help me with this:

1) I'd the stay-quiet-alpha-male stuff went WAY wrong, because when I first met my friend's girl, she saw me talking to everyone in a group (before I could even see her), and later told me that I seemed bold and energetic, not the other way around. What's going on here? Shouldn't being quiet instead of talkative giving me this "power"? (My friend actually told me later that she asked If I had a girlfriend.)

2) Considering the we were in different seats when I felt "I should go for the kiss", what would be a good way for me to have her stand up for we to kiss?

 

[Verisimilitude]

There's a couple things that I think can really help you, but I'll answer your questions first:

1. Don't over think the stay quiet kind of thing. Sprezzatura isn't being silent, its what you say and based on investment. Simply put, you want people listening to you instead of waiting for you to finish. But staying quiet isn't always the best either. She probably looked at you and saw that you fit in and liked that. Don't confuse sprezzatura with silence, its about investment.

2. The simplest way to get her to stand up is to move her. Even if you are sitting down you can still do this. You can have her walk with you to the bar for a drink with you, or tell her to sit next to you because you can't hear her. Moving girls is a good thing to do regardless, but its crucial if you have to get the logistics handled. Another option would be to do a palm reading game or anything else that requires physical touch. I don't know much about these, but there are a couple great ones on this forum.

Now there's a couple things that can help you avoid situations like this in the future:

The best advice I can give you is to have a process. That way, when you start to feel things getting awkward, you know exactly what to do. It should be simple and easy to memorize. It also helps to set a time limit for each thing. You should shoot to move a girl within the first 5 minutes and you can set loose time limits on the other parts. For house parties mine is:
Open
Build Rapport
Move
Deep Dive
Close (number, kiss, sex)

Something like this will make sure you aren't in this situation again. When things start to get awkward you think, "ok now what do I do next?" And you already have a plan.

The next thing is developing an abundance mentality. From reading things, it seems like you were busy trying to impress her. Instead say to yourself, "Ok this girls pretty cool, lets see what she's passionate about and what she can bring to the table". Unless your friend had the worst party in the world, there probably were plenty of other girls. Think of how many girls you can open, and one little girl doesn't seem so intimidating anymore.

Work on conversation skills and deep diving as well as qualifying and screening. There are plenty of good articles on that on the website.

And finally, although it seems like you had a rough idea of when she wanted to kiss you, you probably were a little late in realizing it. Adding sexual tension and seeing how she responded could have helped. See my post below for a good primer on both.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2849

Hope this helps man, good luck.

 

[Big Daddy]

1) Oh, I see. I'll keep that in mind... it's easier for me like that, I'm always talking to everybody in the group. I'll just make a mental note to not go overboard with it

2) Next time I'll definitively have something in mind to move her. I was thinking like, "Okay, how do I come with a reasonable reason to move this girl so we stand up?"

You saw right through it, man! One of my biggest problems right now is not being sexual enough and thus I can't create that sexual tension to go for the kiss yet. I dress very well, have a above average haircut and all these things required to be seen as a sexual man, but I can't pull it right. I lack conversational skills (voice tone, facial expression and can never think of those Bond-ish sexual lines that amazes people) that would definitively help me being considered a sexual man.

Thanks again, xcrunner

But I want to update this report, with something good, but followed by some other "fuck ups"...

My friend's girl went to the movies with her, and my buddy thought that would be a very good chance for me to fix things up, so he invited me. Well, my brain isn't really on my side here: she was the one that chose the seats (in a top, dark corner), my friend told me the day before that she liked me and even with all those signs, I stiiiill didn't had the balls to just go for the kiss. I think it took me a good 20 minutes to come up with an "excuse", but I ended not needing any. I don't remember very well how it was, but something in the lines of: I turned to her awkwardly, didn't say anything because I just thought "well, let's see how things go if I just turn to her" and right when I was turning back, she turned to me and said, "I'm not liking this movie very much..." and then I turned back and said, "there is something you'll like more" and kissed her.

Then I (finally) got her number and promptly followed Chase's advice to not text her at all besides to think about logistics, but I can feel that this probably won't work with this particular girl, because:

a) there is no way I came across as a very experienced sexual men on the first time we met as Chase would have,
b) this girl is young, so she is used to chat on Facebook / Whatsapp, and since she tried to chat with me two times without thaat success, I fear that she might lose interest or something and
c) I can come across as a quiet "I-don't-know-what-to-do-next" kind of guy, since I didn't do any ballsy move ever since I met her.

What do you guys think about these three topics and considering that due to logistics I can't invite her over to my place (nor can she... I realized that while deep diving), what would be a good next step? She'll be free this weekend and I didn't come with any gooood outing ideas yet. I'd love to hear what you have to say.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Glad I could help. One of the biggest ways to create sexual tension is through eye contact. When you are in a conversation with a girl, focus on her eyes, her mouth, and then her eyes again. This is very powerful. In most movie kiss scenes you'll see both the man and woman do this before they kiss. It might seem small, but girls pick up on it. She will probably look flustered or nervous. This isn't bad. This is sexual tension. When she acts this way, she wants you to kiss her.

Your biggest challenge isn't coming off as being too inexperienced, its avoiding auto-rejection. She was close to going into auto-reject, but you pulled her out of it. Furthermore, from the way she's chasing (messages on two social media outlets), she doesn't think of you as inexperienced at all. She even might consider you to be too high value and worry that she's not good enough. Don't worry about her losing interest, worry about her getting hurt and going into auto-reject.

You also stumbled on something that is important in the movie theater date. When there is an escalation window, the most important thing is just to go for it. You don't need something sexy or an excuse to kiss her. When you find yourself in the situation again, just go for it. Don't worry about something cool to say. The fact that you hit the window is enough.

As for a date idea, you don't need to come up with a fancy outing idea. The simpler a date is, the less pressure there is on the girl. And you know she's coming for you, not the date. If I was in your shoes I'd do this:

1. Start visualizing you two getting together and you rocking her world. You are hurting yourself by saying you don't think it will work. That sinking pit feeling like you are just going to mess it up no matter what isn't true unless you let it be. If you visualize success, you will start to imagine you sweeping her off her feet. You will know you will do great, and when the time comes, you will.

2. Ask her on a date this weekend to a coffee shop nearby. Keep it simple. Deep Dive some more and get to know what she's passionate about. When you feel things start to get awkward (you have a good sense for when an escalation window comes up), invite her to a park nearby if you have one. Look at the stars, get her to look at you, use the eye triangle, and boom, you're golden.

3. Have car sex. Look for Chase's post on this and follow it. If you have a car or she has a car, you have a bed. She even might invite you back to her place.

Think positive man, and good luck.

 

[Big Daddy]

Thanks again, dude! I don't know if you realize that for me reading these posts is awesome, so I'm letting you know

1) Actually, after I decided to chat with her for a while, she seemed to be exactly as you thought: she doesn't appear to be thinking that I'm inexperienced at all. Reading your post reaffirming that is a good thing, for sure. Soon after that, I started visualizing things happening naturally

2) That's exactly what I outlined in my head. I love coffee shops, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Things are getting easier now that I'm literally 100% sure that she wants to kiss me, and this time I'll tease her a little bit with that sexual tension

But now that you mentioned it, my biggest problem was getting her to look at me when we were in the movie date. I mean, she was obviously looking at the screen. I think that's what I meant by excuse: I didn't know how to [make an excuse in order to] get her to look at me. Once she did, I just went for it. The problem was that she turned, when I was supposed to make her turn. What would you say is a good way of getting her to look at you in situations like this, where you're close to each other, but looking somewhere else (e.g., at the screen, stars, landscape, city)?

3) Will definitively take a look at that article.

 

[GodsGift]

But now that you mentioned it, my biggest problem was getting her to look at me when we were in the movie date. I mean, she was obviously looking at the screen. I think that's what I meant by excuse: I didn't know how to [make an excuse in order to] get her to look at me. Once she did, I just went for it. The problem was that she turned, when I was supposed to make her turn. What would you say is a good way of getting her to look at you in situations like this, where you're close to each other, but looking somewhere else (e.g., at the screen, stars, landscape, city)?/quote]

I dont know about you but in this situation with a girl I would usually have my arm wraped over her seat and be sitting back. What works for me in this type of situation would be to playfully tap her opposite shoulder from where Im sitting(I do this to girls all the time and they always look back at me) and BOOM she's looking right at you waiting for you to esculate.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I'm glad that things are working out for you! Its great that in the same day you went from thinking that you weren't experienced enough for her, to thinking about how you can get a lay with her in your car.

What would you say is a good way of getting her to look at you in situations like this, where you're close to each other, but looking somewhere else (e.g., at the screen, stars, landscape, city)?

Look at Chase's article on how to kiss a girl. There are plenty of options. You could use touch, like a lingering touch on her hand or arm to make her turn, or you could say something as simple, "hey" or her name to get her to look and then kiss her. If you say these things in a low sexy tone, its more powerful than you might think. You can even just grab her chin and tilt her head facing you before you go in for a kiss.

You can let the conversation trail off and stay quiet for a bit. If she says something, say "yeah" or another short answer. Things might start to get a little awkward. She'll be excited and nervous at the same time because she has no idea what you are thinking. Then you say, "hey" or her name. Or even just staring at her or a lingering touch. She'll turn to you to make eye contact and then go for it.

Good luck man, and put up a FR and let us know what happens

 

[Big Daddy]

Good tips, guys! I'll keep those in mind.

I'll write up a FR as soon as it happens Until that, I'll share an article that helped me understand better the "leading a group" thing, thought someone might find it an interesting read: https://www.girlschase.com/content/bring ... life-party

 

[Big Daddy]

OK, I'll have to update this post once again, since I keep fucking things up... I'd feel bad, but this was expected, so I'm actually dealing OK with it. Definitively it's something that I'll improve over time.

I had, as you know, architected everything on my head... It was simple. I'd meet her at a coffee shop nearby, would deep dive a little bit, build a little bit of tension, move her somewhere else and do "stuff". It turns out that I didn't deep dive very well (need to improve on this... I actually didn't even remember something she said to me on our last date) and couldn't control the flow of the conversation as I imagined I would. And every time I stopped talking to build up the tension, she clearly felt awkward (which was supposed to happen) and tried to go on with the conversation by asking me something like, "and about you?" (not supposed to happen)

After some time I noticed she kept looking at my mouth almost all the time, but I couldn't build up the tension to go for the kiss like a real man would. Needless to say, I spent hours going almost nowhere (sex-wise), disappointed with myself for not being able to move things forward, and that I had spent too much time there and that my plan was destroyed, and, just when we were about to leave, I started touching her on the leg, and it was easier to go for the kiss, which I did (no real tension here, though).

[Note: after a couple of seconds kissing, we stopped and she said, "we can't do this here..." (by "here" she means, "because it's too public") to which I replied "oh, can't we?" and then she said, "yeah... you actually behaved yourself today haha" (she referring to the movie date... things were starting to get very wild in that room, she wasn't comfortable going further in there)]

Then she says that she wants to "enjoy a little bit on the car" (this caught me completely off guard), so we go to her car, and things got a little bit more interesting here. I sucked her breasts and tried to finger her, but since I'm a relatively tall guy, there wasn't too much space for me to twist my hand almost 180 degrees to do it decently. I didn't penetrate her (I know, I know!) and after that she drove me home. On our way, she asks if I'm free tomorrow and invites to a play that's going to happen tomorrow. Her friend from the first report (my friend's girl) keep asking her how things are going between us all the time, so she says she'll invite them both there, too.

Aaaaand I felt like shit when I got home. I mean, I was supposed to lead her, but she did that for me. She was the one that said, "hey, let's go to my car". She kept saying what I was supposed to do (e.g., "hug me tighter", "faster", that kind of stuff). She drove me home (this was awkward). And she asked me out, practically. And don't get me wrong, this isn't one of those super dominant girls, she is just... a normal girl. She was just doing a job I was supposed to do. But still, I'd say I have a pretty decent lay chance tomorrow after the play if I handle logistics to do so, and fucking LEAD her already. If things work out well, I'll have her come to my place.

Oh, and once I got home she texted me the address of the theater, "It's near your place... within walking distance haha" to which I replied "Nice! " and then she texted again "But I'll probably catch you there [at my place with her car]". Oh, boy. Having her driving me is a bad thing? Doesn't that reduces my chances of leading us somewhere? I must confess I do not feel thaat manly in this situation...

 

[Verisimilitude]

First, you did fine. You are just starting out, you aren't gonna be perfect on the second date. You need to stay positive.

I keep fucking things up... I'd feel bad, but this was expected

DONT say things like this!
This kills any chance you have of being a strong guy. You can't have low self-esteem and be confident enough to move fast with women. She thinks you are cool, and you seem like a pretty cool guy here. You have no reason to treat yourself like this. Ditch the victim mentality man.

Secondly, I think that you did pretty well. What you see as her leading the interaction, I see as her chasing you. She's putting all this effort into getting the two of you together. That's a pretty good sign. The car thing isn't a problem either. It just means she's putting in more effort to get you.

Now lets talk about some thing to correct:

1. STICK TO THE PLAN. You let yourself get thrown off because you were nervous. The thing is, when you get nervous, think "Ok where am I in my process and what do I do next?" Also, you and I both know when you should have moved to the next step...and she did too.

After some time I noticed she kept looking at my mouth almost all the time

Pull, Pull, Pull. That's a clear signal that she wants to get out of there and find some place more private. All you have to do is say, "Hey this place is too (insert adjective here), why don't we go somewhere else?" And then go for it. If you want to get a better feel, read a couple of the other FR's and you can see the escalation windows pretty well too.

Your plan wasn't destroyed, you just didn't follow it. But she did. After you started kissing her, she wasn't interested in making it a show for everyone else, so she took you to her car.

2. Don't worry about the car thing. She understands that it isn't ideal. You can keep working on it and there's a couple good tips on these boards about it, but if you can take her home, just do that. Don't finger her when you can fuck her. So much easier, and she'll thank you too.

3. Sexual tension isn't as big as a deal as you think. If you want to kiss her, just go for it. Don't try to build the tension if you have the opportunity, just do it! But if you two are alone and you want to create some before you kiss her, use the mouth triangle thing, whisper in her ear (this should be easy to do at the play), or use touch. I want to see a post soon that you used one of these three at the play, and within ten minutes of the play.

Another thing that really ups the tension is pressing your knee between her legs. Girls love this. So much so that they will do it themselves. And yes I am serious. It kinda makes you feel violated

She wants you man. Good luck with the date. Visualize success, and you'll have it.

 

[Big Daddy]

Thanks for the motivation! I've been busy lately, couldn't update this post sooner. Actually, after the play date, I became as calm as a Buddhist monk.

I said we should go for a coffee before the play as we both love coffee (to be honest, I really wanted to drink coffee). Met her at a coffee shop near the theater in which the play was gonna happen, and after a cup of coffee and some talking, we left. I think it's worth noting that she wanted to hold hands all the time while we walked, and if we were seating close to each other she would try to hug me and have me put my arm around her.

This happened the entire play. The seats were placed in a non-conventional way, so we ended up not having much opportunities to talk or kiss, but she was trying to hug me the entire time. Once the play ended, I grabbed her chin with my fingers and kissed her. She drove me home, parked in a dark spot and things got interesting again. Did not have sex, but overall I was happy because after that I realized I'm not nervous anymore.

Some time after I got home, we texted for a while, and at some point we started teasing each other, when she says (not explicitly) that sex will happen, but not right now. Almost immediately after she asks me when do I think we're gonna have sex, but changes the question to, "don't you think we're going too fast?" which sounded like she thought that we were going too fast, so I replied "I think we're doing OK" (but really wanting to say, "actually, I think we could move even faster") and then she said "I think we're doing OK too, but I think because we're getting to know each other..." [comment: I didn't really understand what she's trying to say here. My guess is that I'm not moving as fast as she expected, even though she said we're doing OK. I think she just said that to agree with what I answered before.] Later on she says the she's gone "faster (like way faster), but it was gone fast too, there wasn't even enough time to enjoy," but that happened because she didn't have much patience before (and now she has).

The next day, she texts me that she got a day off from work that afternoon and that she was also going to be alone at home with her girlfriends. That sounded like an invitation, but to not sound needy I playfully said something about it. She then said I should come too. Now, that sounded a lot like stuff a boyfriend would do, so I turned it down initially. But then it came to mind that

a) she mentioned explicitly that (besides the girls) she was going to be alone
b) she always had a "plan", so I figured this might be the case too, like suddenly the girls couldn't come over once I got there

When I got there, she is waiting for me at the lobby with one of her friends and the she says that she forgot the keys to her apartment. I talk with them for a couple of hours (they talked about about girl topics sometimes, in which I remained quiet), and I realize that she told her friends everything she knows and thinks about me. She kissed me in front of her friends when we met, she held my hand in front of her friends when we walk. When we all had to go, I finally got some time alone with her (you know, because her friends "mysteriously" let us alone) and we make out. I leave not long after that.

Even though she slept with other guys before, she never had a boyfriend. What do you guys think? I'm being labeled as boyfriend material / I'm already labeled? In that case, what should I do to get off as soon as possible from the boyfriend-zone?

About the bolded paragraph, what it seems to you that she's trying to say?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Even though she slept with other guys before, she never had a boyfriend. What do you guys think? I'm being labeled as boyfriend material / I'm already labeled? In that case, what should I do to get off as soon as possible from the boyfriend-zone?

Yeah, you're in the boyfriend-zone. Deep in it. Really, you are already dating. Showing you to her girlfriends is a HUGE step towards being her boyfriend.

The bolded text means she's slept with guys before and it hasn't worked out, but she wants this to and she's trying to avoid moving too fast because she thinks it makes the guy leave. She's trying not to mess it up, and she thinks that moving too slow helps that. I don't have an opinion about if moving too fast helps in relationships (girls you want as a girlfriend), but Chase is all about moving fast.

More importantly, the bolded text means that she's gauging your response to what's going on. What do you see her as? She saw the both of you were talking about sex, and she was basically asking you when things should happen. She was basically asking for you to take control of the relationship, and you didn't exactly give a response, so she picked the speed. And controlled the relationship

A couple things to consider:

1. What do you want from her? You should have decided this already, but don't feel too bad. A lot of guys have trouble doing this right away when you meet a girl. Its happened to me, and it probably happens to everyone. Just for future reference, before you go on a date with a girl (at least by the second), figure out what you want from her. It seems to me that you were worried about providing any value and you ended up providing TOO much value. She now sees you as a boyfriend candidate and wants to move slow with you. You can fix this by being confident in yourself and moving quickly with girls. You need to figure this out before you do anything else with her. You don't want to lead her on.

2. When are you going to have sex with this girl? If I've read all this correctly, this was the third date for you (fourth if you count the girlfriends visit.) You need to have sex with this girl, if only just to finally get a reward for all your work. You should have sex with her asap. It's gonna determine how your relationship goes and how she sees you

3. Is she having sex with other guys? You can ask your friend to subtly ask her friend this. I'm sure you're thinking, "no way she is!" But its pretty likely she is. If she goes to a club, gets drunk, and get approaches by a strong sexy guy, I bet she'll go home with him. After all you technically aren't technically dating and the two of you haven't had sex, so there's no problem in her mind.

Figure out what you want from this girl and get her to do it. Lead her! And let us know how it goes

 

[Big Daddy]

Oh man, I swear it didn't even come to mind that she as asking me to take control when she asked me when I thought it was gonna happen. Being honest, it just seems obvious right now that's she's like, "so, what's gonna be?" Glad you pointed that out. I actually thought that she was like, "let's not move too fast, okay?"

Personal opinion, what would you have replied to that text ("when do you think it's gonna happen?") if you were me?

1. I'd like to spend some time more with her for a while. Not looking for a long-term relationship right now, but I enjoy being with her in general.

2. We hadn't texted for two days. My idea was to do some push-pull after that last "date". I'll make some plans tomorrow and text her asap with something in mind (sex-wise).

3. I don't think so, as her friends made that quite guessable. But now that you said, meeting someone in a night club and having sex with them is a fairly possible option.

I will get her to do it. Will post updates as soon as possible.

 

[Verisimilitude]

No worries man. This is a learning process. And it is so much easier for me to sit here and critique you, because I have time, and I'm detached from the emotions of it all. And the learning is SO much easier than the application. I'm still struggling with the application myself. That's why a process is so important. You can apply knowledge and not have to worry about time constraints.

What might help a little is taking some more time to answer between texts. Be deliberate and concise about what you say. Think about what to text before you text it. Another is thinking, "what would I tell a friend to do in this situation?". But you still get influenced by the emotions of it all anyways.

I would have responded to her text about when you think you two are having sex with, "Oh really? Look at you little miss impatient You'll just have to wait and see ". Or just the wait and see part. That keeps the intrigue and attraction up (she doesn't know when it'll happen, and that's exciting) and the miss impatient part is a chase frame. If she had responded with the "don't you think we're going too fast" text, I would have said, "Oh really? I think you wanted to turn things up a notch yesterday " and then changed the subject, or talked about how you can't control things like that, how passion has to happen naturally. Those also might be good ideas to talk to her about when you meet her next, because you'll have to switch the frame on her and get her out of the, "gotta move slow" mode.

1. That's cool. Just make sure you have a clear picture of what you envision the two of you being. You also will want to start framing that idea in her mind. You can talk about how relationships don't have to be defined for them to work and throw in a joke about how people love to be "facebook official". If the two people know what they mean to the other person, they don't need a social network to tell them that. But really, Chase and Ricardus explain framing much better than I can.

2. Sounds good. I like texting just for logistics and setting up dates, but it really doesn't matter how you use it, as long as you use it well. And have a plan and follow it. I'm not sure if that's exactly a push pull, but it'll work.

3. To that I'd say that girls always have options in orbit. There's always a back up plan. But you are her #1 right now, and that's good.

Don't get phased when girls say things that throw you, like her text about sex. Girls are cute and silly. That doesn't mean you can ignore them or that they don't have feelings, but that they don't bother you. You have a plan, and you lead her to it.

The sooner you establish your dominance in the relationship (and the sooner you sleep with her), the easier it is going to be for you to get her to do what you want.

Finally, I think it might help if you post your process for your date on here. That will force you to make one, and you can get advice about it.

 

[Big Daddy]

TL;DR-est version: I had sex with her.

After your last post, I realized how critical my situation was, and despite being busy as hell, I made some time to invite her over my place, in which, logistically speaking, I just got lucky that things ended well. But it happened. Zero LMR. Which such a drastic move, I made quite obvious what was going to happen and still got zero LMR, meaning she wanted it to happen (much sooner, to be fair) all the time.

I must sit down with some spare time and really decide what I want out of this. I'm not going to stop seeing her because, aside from everything else, she shows me (while realizing it or not) what I need to improve. And at this point, I think it's a good opportunity to learn all these stuff and fix them. Leading, building intrigue and sex in general are things that I need to improve dramatically. I'm not planing to stop meeting other girls just because of this one in particular, definitively will start meeting other people as soon as my schedule make that possible.

I'll follow your advice and try to write down a process, but I find that every time I write a "step-by-step" I tend to forget it about some time. Still, I'm eager to learn this as fast as possible and as you are way ahead of me in this stuff, you probably have a better idea of what works and what doesn't too, so I'll do it and post it here. I may still update a couple of things in this post for documentation purposes. If these things happen to be too general or out of the subject, I'll post it somewhere else, too

 

[Big Daddy]

I don't know why I can't edit my last post, so I'll post again.

Regarding sex itself, the adapted missionary position that Chase talks about in one of his articles (https://www.girlschase.com/content/make- ... es-or-less) really tire way less than the traditional missionary, but at a height of almost 6', I actually thought that it was difficult to thrust in the right angle (she must be around 5'2), and the traditional missionary did a better job regarding thrust angle. Sadly, it is hard to maintain rhythm and have to support your body on your hands / wrists.

Do you guys have any thoughts on this?