Does flirting = neediness?

[Renegade]

So I've had many situations where everything went very well, but when I decided to show a bit of interest by flirting, the girl lost interest.

By flirting I mean phrases like

"you have 5 cats? okay I'm getting worried.."

"you live in a small town? so like a farm with chicken etc?"

"you look like the type to...."

"I bet you like to dance"

Basically making it all about her.

I thought this was good but maybe it's too much interest? Too needy? Because being aloof and actually not needing to impress the girl by flirting has worked way better.

Like yesterday I met a girl in a facebook group, generated enough interest to facetime her.. and when I started flirting, she probably felt "validated" and left..

So flirting=interest. That's for sure. But is it bad to show interest, when girls like aloof guys who don't need them?

 

[Will_V]

So I've had many situations where everything went very well, but when I decided to show a bit of interest by flirting, the girl lost interest.

By flirting I mean phrases like

"you have 5 cats? okay I'm getting worried.."

"you live in a small town? so like a farm with chicken etc?"

"you look like the type to...."

"I bet you like to dance"

Basically making it all about her.

I thought this was good but maybe it's too much interest? Too needy? Because being aloof and actually not needing to impress the girl by flirting has worked way better.

Like yesterday I met a girl in a facebook group, generated enough interest to facetime her.. and when I started flirting, she probably felt "validated" and left..

So flirting=interest. That's for sure. But is it bad to show interest, when girls like aloof guys who don't need them?

No, flirting is not inherently needy. But it's possible to be needy when flirting, especially if you're trying to get a reaction.

Communication is only 7% verbal, which means that 93% of her reaction is to your nonverbals, your tone, body language, facial expression etc.

All those phrases are fine. The reactions you're getting are very probably based on a change in your state as you start flirting. Maybe before you are cool and calm and laidback, but when you start flirting she senses that you are nervously looking for a reaction, or looking uncertain about whether you've done it right, looking for approval, maybe tensing up a bit. And she goes 'oh the previous thing then was a facade, he's actually not like that' and drifts away.

Teasing and cold reading like you're doing here needs to be done in the frame of 'I'm just having fun'. Tone and body language matters a lot. Imagine you're with your friends and you're all joking around and shooting the shit, the vibe is great, high energy, etc. Now imagine all of you started trying to get positive reactions from eachother, trying to be funny, etc. Anyone watching would immediately feel the cringe and want to get away. That's why nobody likes champagne dinners.

If you keep things in the former state, where you're just letting out your natural self expression in her direction, girls feel a lot more comfortable and have a lot of fun.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

All those phrases are fine. The reactions you're getting are very probably based on a change in your state as you start flirting. Maybe before you are cool and calm and laidback, but when you start flirting she senses that you are nervously looking for a reaction, or looking uncertain about whether you've done it right, looking for approval, maybe tensing up a bit. And she goes 'oh the previous thing then was a facade, he's actually not like that' and drifts away.

Can totally second this.

This is probably the thing I've mostly been struggling with in seduction in general as well. A lot of times it feels that even with girls that seem interested, the moment I go to talk to them, or I start being playful, or I begin escalating, I feel I come off as totally having an agenda of wanting sex and trying to get it.

And I can sense that my vibe is changing when I do that. It's exactly as you say, I am delivering the lines in order to achieve something, because I know I have to use them to make the interaction more playful, sexual and move forward.

One question I would have connected to the original post then is how do you go about letting out your natural self expression when it comes to going for a result? For me it feels that the moment I like a girl and want sex, my natural self expression would be to instantly go up to her and express it.

I guess I find all the other flirting parts as ways to get her ready to have sex with me, and not something I would naturally do. So I truly wonder, how do you move from using it as a technique to simply living it?

And the thing is I have had situations where my vibe was more flirty and not needy, and girls enjoyed it, but in none of them I eventually had sex with a girl. Because either I was there only having fun and never even thought about closing no matter the indicators of interest or It felt like the moment I thought in my mind: "ok she is hot, we are having fun, let's move towards a close", the whole non needy flirty vibe collapsed due to me going after sex.

 

[bgwh]

Some of us can't pull off flirting without coming across needy, which fortunately isn't an issue since flirting is optional in seduction. Compliance is the only thing that matters. You can get compliance without flirting.

You can't close without compliance, you can bang as many chicks as you want without ever flirting, it's entirely optional.

 

[Will_V]

One question I would have connected to the original post then is how do you go about letting out your natural self expression when it comes to going for a result? For me it feels that the moment I like a girl and want sex, my natural self expression would be to instantly go up to her and express it.

Good question. A part of it is momentum, when you're acting on your self expression a lot (going up to girls and talking to them and flirting and having fun) you start to realize that OK, I'm going to need to get something happening here, so you start focusing on process, doing the right things at the right time, figuring out where things went wrong, and having more intent.

I believe that it's best to have a good free-flowing self expression before focusing too much on details. For example, I have the loose idea in my head that I'll need to:

1. Open
2. Find out something about her
3. Qualify her in some way
4. Suggest a date and grab the number

That's what I won't forget to do no matter where my head is at, because everything there is essential. Every now and then during the interaction, I'll quickly check in where I'm at on those steps, and make sure to always try the next step at some point even if the interaction's not working out well.

But until I'm doing a good job of creating a vibe and having fun, positive interactions, I don't focus on any more detail than that. Because if I try to focus on details when my I'm in my head, I become disconnected and it's hard to flirt and vibe with her.

Once I'm having some good interactions, then I'll really start to focus on whatever point I feel like things are dropping off and make sure I'm polishing that really well, and so on until the whole seduction is on point. For example if there's not enough tension, I'll think about how I can put a little more pressure on her to qualify, or make my teasing a little more sexual.

That's my way of getting on a roll.

Generally I prefer to risk spending 'too much' time just having fun with her. There is always the time and opportunity to reframe and take back control when you need to. A lot of times guys worry about how to take back the frame in a cool way or whatever when really it's just taking candy from a baby, she'll let go as soon as you grab it confidently.

I'm also a very intuitive seducer, I hate the taste of canned seduction, and I know as long as my state control is on point I can create enough self-awareness in the moment to navigate anything I need to. I prefer to be a little bit unpolished, but have a greater emotional effect, than to be really focused and efficient, but with less impact. YMMV.

I guess I find all the other flirting parts as ways to get her ready to have sex with me, and not something I would naturally do. So I truly wonder, how do you move from using it as a technique to simply living it?

Well part of it is deciding how you want to experience women, and simply living it. In the moment where I go up to a girl, I'm not thinking about taking her to bed, I'm simply wanting her to feel the pleasure that I feel when I look at her. I just want to 'touch' her reality and enjoy her response. It's a very impulsive motivation, in a way, but it works for me a lot better than going up with some internal frame where I'm planning my next ten moves. It really allows me to lead with the authentic feeling of desire that she created in me.

If I can't make that initial contact enjoyable for her, then it's very hard to turn things around - and since my enjoyment of women comes in large part from the way they experience and respond to me and my presence, if she doesn't respond, it's easy for me to let her go.

All the flirting I do once I've approached is really coming downstream from that feeling of delight and the desire to 'touch' her reality that I felt when I first saw her. And I genuinely feel very happy to have achieved that even if nothing else comes of the interaction. It's why I loathe spam approaching, and why I especially love daygame.

I will say that state control, being deeply relaxed and in a positive, present, expressive state of mind, is absolutely essential here.

And the thing is I have had situations where my vibe was more flirty and not needy, and girls enjoyed it, but in none of them I eventually had sex with a girl. Because either I was there only having fun and never even thought about closing no matter the indicators of interest or It felt like the moment I thought in my mind: "ok she is hot, we are having fun, let's move towards a close", the whole non needy flirty vibe collapsed due to me going after sex.

That's really a question of keeping the basic structure of the seduction in your head at all times, and making sure you hit the notes in order even if it's not perfectly timed, and over time just developing the timing as second nature. The basic structure of an approach is relatively simple, the date is a little more complicated (but only because it's basically an elongated approach with a few loop-backs along the way).

I suggest writing out all the steps that seem to work best for you (let's say 5-10) and then memorizing them and making sure you are mentally looking at each approach in terms of those steps. After a while it will become very instinctive, like shifting up in a car - you just know when it's time for the next gear.

Some of us can't pull off flirting without coming across needy, which fortunately isn't an issue since flirting is optional in seduction. Compliance is the only thing that matters. You can get compliance without flirting.

You can't close without compliance, you can bang as many chicks as you want without ever flirting, it's entirely optional.

That sounds good in theory, but what is it that's going to make her comply?

Although I use the word 'compliance' in certain contexts and it's a useful and common term in seduction, I don't really like it. The only times I've ever been asked to 'comply' is by the police or the local council, and it's never something I'm exactly excited about doing. That's hopefully not what seduction is all about.

Sure, compliance is what you ultimately need to get, to grab her phone number, to get her out on a date, to move her, to pull, to undress her, etc. And when she experiences herself complying with you it often increases her attraction and submissiveness.

But she's not complying simply because ... compliance. She's complying because she wants to, she's got rapport with you, she's excited, she's aroused, she's attracted, and you've set all the right frames to enable her to move forward. That's a huge part of it, and some kind of flirting and sexual framing needs to be part of that so you have a foundation for escalation.

 

[bgwh]

That sounds good in theory, but what is it that's going to make her comply?

Although I use the word 'compliance' in certain contexts and it's a useful and common term in seduction, I don't really like it. The only times I've ever been asked to 'comply' is by the police or the local council, and it's never something I'm exactly excited about doing. That's hopefully not what seduction is all about.

Sure, compliance is what you ultimately need to get, to grab her phone number, to get her out on a date, to move her, to pull, to undress her, etc. And when she experiences herself complying with you it often increases her attraction and submissiveness.

But she's not complying simply because ... compliance. She's complying because she wants to, she's got rapport with you, she's excited, she's aroused, she's attracted, and you've set all the right frames to enable her to move forward. That's a huge part of it, and some kind of flirting and sexual framing needs to be part of that so you have a foundation for escalation.

Sure, but the point is it's possible to get laid with flirting. It's possible to build attraction without flirting. Flirting is optional. It's just one of many way to achieve the goal, it's not mandatory. Which is great news for those of us not good at that flirting/teasing stuff.

In terms of compliance not being the best word. True, but nobody has come up with an alternative word to use for this concept. Maybe someone should, but I'm not aware of alternatives.

Point is that you can 1) be attractive 2) go through ever increasing compliance hoops 3) bang

 

[DarkKnight]

Yeah Will hits valid points , the nonverbal communication cannot be understated. I am in field right now and this chick I was about to next her, but now she is giving me signs again but I notice my state is not up there, so I am relaxing somewhere else so my presentation is on point when I engage her.

I really control my micro expressions, another broad who was slipping into autorejection was very testy in tje afternoon (I didnt know she liked me) so I reacted with law of least effort and warm. State control is super important.

 

[Rakehell]

"you have 5 cats? okay I'm getting worried.."

"you live in a small town? so like a farm with chicken etc?"

"you look like the type to...."

"I bet you like to dance"

Basically making it all about her.

I thought this was good but maybe it's too much interest? Too needy? Because being aloof and actually not needing to impress the girl by flirting has worked way better.

Could be you’re going about it the wrong way. The point of flirting is to segway things into a more sexual interaction and to communicate sexual intent. To get her aroused and wondering of being with you. It’ll feel like tension is being created and it’s bringing you both closer. It’s a form of escalation.

The examples you gave I wouldn’t really consider flirting or innuendo. Think: “Could I say or do this to one of my guy friends?”.

Teasing is different than flirting in the sense that you run the risk of it not landing and insulting them/ them not understanding/ not taking it the way it was meant. It’ll feel like trying too hard for no return or even worse creating more hoops for yourself to jump through because she took it the wrong way.

It pushes them away and isn’t necessary, but can be done to bring them closer if you know what buttons to push.

 

[Renegade]

No, flirting is not inherently needy. But it's possible to be needy when flirting, especially if you're trying to get a reaction.

Communication is only 7% verbal, which means that 93% of her reaction is to your nonverbals, your tone, body language, facial expression etc.

All those phrases are fine. The reactions you're getting are very probably based on a change in your state as you start flirting. Maybe before you are cool and calm and laidback, but when you start flirting she senses that you are nervously looking for a reaction, or looking uncertain about whether you've done it right, looking for approval, maybe tensing up a bit. And she goes 'oh the previous thing then was a facade, he's actually not like that' and drifts away.

Teasing and cold reading like you're doing here needs to be done in the frame of 'I'm just having fun'. Tone and body language matters a lot. Imagine you're with your friends and you're all joking around and shooting the shit, the vibe is great, high energy, etc. Now imagine all of you started trying to get positive reactions from eachother, trying to be funny, etc. Anyone watching would immediately feel the cringe and want to get away. That's why nobody likes champagne dinners.

If you keep things in the former state, where you're just letting out your natural self expression in her direction, girls feel a lot more comfortable and have a lot of fun.

Thanks, that makes sense. Although I don't think that anyone ever communicates with anyone without looking for approval.

Like even while you're just teasing your friends, having fun... you want them to have fun, to include you too. Or, at the very least, you don't want them to hate you. So there is some approval seeking.

It's everywhere, even just talking to the cashier at a store, you want them to enjoy your presence. And of course in seduction this need is 1000 times higher because we want girls to like us. Our survival depends on it.

By this I want to say that there really can't be much of a state change because I'm needy 24/7, just like we all are. I'm never 'just having fun', it's always high-stakes, always fighting for approval.

Maybe there's someone out there who doesn't need approval at times, but that person would have to have a massive social circle and a rotation of 10+ girls so that he really wouldn't need any more.

And even when you geniunely don't want the girl, it's still polite to care about the outcome. It makes the girl feel better if we're nervous around her. And we want to make girls feel better don't we?

 

[Chase]

@Renegade,

Thanks, that makes sense. Although I don't think that anyone ever communicates with anyone without looking for approval.

...

And even when you geniunely don't want the girl, it's still polite to care about the outcome. It makes the girl feel better if we're nervous around her. And we want to make girls feel better don't we?

I will give you a slightly different perspective.

We all care about outcomes. But we care about them for various reasons.

e.g., when I was a rookie PUA, I would indeed be approval-seeking. I'd be talking to a girl and thinking, "Oh man, I hope she reacts well to this. I hope she likes this. I hope she hooks. I hope my game is good enough for this girl."

But eventually you get to a point where you are very confident in what you are doing, and no longer evaluating yourself but rather evaluating the other and evaluating the connection. Your outcome monitoring shifts. Then when you chat up a girl, you are thinking, "I wonder if this girl is cool." Then if she responds poorly, you think, "Eh... this chick is a downer." Or you might think, "Hmm, this girl seems a bit stuffy. I wonder if I can loosen her up." Then it is either "Aha! She is loosen-up-able!" or else "Damn, this one is wound tighter than a two-dollar watch." Etc. Your evaluations become focused on evaluating others rather than continually evaluating and reevaluating yourself in light of how others react to you.

Chase

 

[Will_V]

Thanks, that makes sense. Although I don't think that anyone ever communicates with anyone without looking for approval.

Like even while you're just teasing your friends, having fun... you want them to have fun, to include you too. Or, at the very least, you don't want them to hate you. So there is some approval seeking.

It's everywhere, even just talking to the cashier at a store, you want them to enjoy your presence. And of course in seduction this need is 1000 times higher because we want girls to like us. Our survival depends on it.

By this I want to say that there really can't be much of a state change because I'm needy 24/7, just like we all are. I'm never 'just having fun', it's always high-stakes, always fighting for approval.

Maybe there's someone out there who doesn't need approval at times, but that person would have to have a massive social circle and a rotation of 10+ girls so that he really wouldn't need any more.

And even when you geniunely don't want the girl, it's still polite to care about the outcome. It makes the girl feel better if we're nervous around her. And we want to make girls feel better don't we?

To add to what @Chase mentioned, when you have plenty of experience doing something, it's part of your concept of self, and you are no longer worried about whether or not it will be accepted, because you have all the other 9999 times that it worked (or didn't work for reasons you have already understood). So instead of looking for approval, you also can simply compare this situation to all the other situations you had, and the person in front of you becomes less relevant as a marker for whether you did well or not. Because if it didn't work in this case, and worked 9999 other times, it's more likely this situation is by far the exception and fairly irrelevant.

When you haven't had a lot of success doing something (especially if that thing has a lot of emotional influence on you) such as socializing or flirting or having sex, it's difficult not to be hypervigilant to negative feedback, which makes approval-seeking 100x stronger and more obvious, and pushes people away. That's why in these cases you need a process and repetitions, you need feedback from experienced guys, you basically need to be able to relax into the frame of 'ok I'm not there yet, let's take this one step at a time' and focus on incremental improvements and gaining that experience, and hopefully being able to enjoy everything along the way.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

If I can't make that initial contact enjoyable for her, then it's very hard to turn things around - and since my enjoyment of women comes in large part from the way they experience and respond to me and my presence, if she doesn't respond, it's easy for me to let her go.

I've totally felt this enjoyment from a woman responding to me and it is not only beautiful, but a lot of times it does naturally lead to flirting and escalating the vibe. I feel my issue here is what you describe as her not responding. It happens a lot of times from her rejecting me right away to simply staying there and talking politely without investing much, that I start thinking: "Ok, it seems that a sexual connection can't be naturally formed, I have to find ways to pique her interest". And then it goes downhill with the neediness.

I feel what you described in the later post is the answer. You just keep doing it until you reach the point that you view the interaction more with curiosity, thinking: "Hmm this feels like it's not going anywhere, let's have some fun and see how it goes". And due to the general success you have had it feels ok even if it doesn't work in this situation.

All the flirting I do once I've approached is really coming downstream from that feeling of delight and the desire to 'touch' her reality that I felt when I first saw her. And I genuinely feel very happy to have achieved that even if nothing else comes of the interaction. It's why I loathe spam approaching, and why I especially love daygame.

It's also an interesting mindset to feel happy even if nothing else comes out. I have totally had interactions that never ended up in sex but that were still powerful and I enjoyed. That said, they do end up giving me a weird feeling of disappointment as well, since I can clearly see how much we could enjoy each other sexually. And I really feel that sex is the deepest form of connection, so when we don't end up having it, it feels a bit like the girl did not trust me enough and our bond and experience was not that strong after all.

In the end of course it's also the practical question of: "Ok the girls who don't like me don't have sex with me, but if even the ones that like me don't have sex with me, how am I even gonna have sexual relationships in my life?" It's the same answer though, you have to keep going and believing in your development, and as you start getting successes, you won't mind that much if any particular girl doesn't end up in your bed.

I guess my biggest fear is that no matter how much I work on it and improve there might be a certain level of women that I won't get, and this will keep me away from ever reaching true abundance. But I suppose others have done it so it would be possible, and even if I cannot figure it by myself, I can always seek advice, get coaches and eventually reach what I desire.

 

[Will_V]

I've totally felt this enjoyment from a woman responding to me and it is not only beautiful, but a lot of times it does naturally lead to flirting and escalating the vibe. I feel my issue here is what you describe as her not responding. It happens a lot of times from her rejecting me right away to simply staying there and talking politely without investing much, that I start thinking: "Ok, it seems that a sexual connection can't be naturally formed, I have to find ways to pique her interest". And then it goes downhill with the neediness.

I feel what you described in the later post is the answer. You just keep doing it until you reach the point that you view the interaction more with curiosity, thinking: "Hmm this feels like it's not going anywhere, let's have some fun and see how it goes". And due to the general success you have had it feels ok even if it doesn't work in this situation.



It's also an interesting mindset to feel happy even if nothing else comes out. I have totally had interactions that never ended up in sex but that were still powerful and I enjoyed. That said, they do end up giving me a weird feeling of disappointment as well, since I can clearly see how much we could enjoy each other sexually. And I really feel that sex is the deepest form of connection, so when we don't end up having it, it feels a bit like the girl did not trust me enough and our bond and experience was not that strong after all.

In the end of course it's also the practical question of: "Ok the girls who don't like me don't have sex with me, but if even the ones that like me don't have sex with me, how am I even gonna have sexual relationships in my life?" It's the same answer though, you have to keep going and believing in your development, and as you start getting successes, you won't mind that much if any particular girl doesn't end up in your bed.

I guess my biggest fear is that no matter how much I work on it and improve there might be a certain level of women that I won't get, and this will keep me away from ever reaching true abundance. But I suppose others have done it so it would be possible, and even if I cannot figure it by myself, I can always seek advice, get coaches and eventually reach what I desire.

I think it's important to separate a couple of things here.

There are two ways to improve in seduction, and they both need to be done to have the best experience.

The first (and most important) one is to look at what you're doing technically and ask the simple question: at what point are things going wrong? Is it the approach? Is it being unable to hook? Is it the interaction fizzling out at some point? Is it lack of tension or sexual framing? Is it something a girl does fairly regularly that you simply don't know how to respond to? Are you forgetting a step?

If you do this calmly and rationally, you will always improve even if it's just a small amount each day, and you won't feel stuck for very long. And this site has abundant resources for helping you with that.

However, there is also another question you can ask yourself, which is: what fundamental things about me are getting in the way of seducing? The biggest one by far is your state of mind and the emotions you are putting out. Most guys (most people in fact) are completely unaware of how they actually come across to other people. This is because we have our own internal world and ego, which is more or less filled with illusions about who we are. These illusions are functional illusions, which enable us to maintain our identity and self esteem even when the outside world doesn't reflect it back to us. Everyone has them to some extent.

The problem is that these illusions can cause a huge disruption to our ability to interact with the world effectively. If we believe we are happy when we are not, believe we are satisfied with ourselves when we are not, believe we are good at something when we're not, believe we want something that we don't actually want, believe that we are having an effect we aren't having, believe that something is coming from outside when it's really coming from inside, that means that our internal and external world don't match, and this causes anxiety, negative tension, and failure to catalyze in other people the emotions that we think we feel ourselves (when subconsciously the emotions running around in us are quite different, and these other emotions are what is being actually transferred in the interaction). For myself, this is usually the problem when I am unable to stick an approach - i.e. I'm rejected immediately or the interactions feel closed off from the get go. I'm experiencing one version of myself, and she's seeing something else from the outside.

For me, learning to understand and accept the nature of the universe and my place in it, without going down egotistical rabbit holes, and learning to value the present moment above everything else, have been the main things that help me stabilize my social and seductive interactions, and live with fewer illusions but a greater experience of life. I try to focus completely on the clarity and grace of my self expression right now, and bringing out the clarity and grace of the self expression of the girl I'm talking with, and admiring the beauty of this energetic dance that happened out of nowhere, and this enables me to create something that feels very different to what a girl is used to feeling around a guy. And in that moment, that's all I want, that's all my ego desires.

As the interaction progresses, I consciously move my attention more to her physical - admiring her eyes, lips, hair, the shape of her neck and shoulders, in very brief moments I imagine touching and kissing her or sliding the strap off the side of her shoulders - and my sexual intent simply comes out without trying. I'm not in my head "I have to find a way to make it sexual!!", I am sexual. I just experience the sexual dimension of the interaction while we are still in sync, and feel it in my body, and she feels it too. And because I am experiencing it rather than trying to get her to experience it or trying to get something happening that isn't happening, there's very little neediness involved. Even if she walked away then and there, I would hardly be able to stop enjoying myself - it wouldn't be able to invalidate what already happened.

One other thing that very much helps is that I conceptualize individual women as fragments of Woman, the feminine dimension of reality. My interactions are not interactions with individual women so much as they are interactions with the feminine as a whole. And so my goal is always to enjoy and admire and seduce and be intimate with femininity as a whole, so any given interaction is only a small part of my overall experience, and my ego is less attached to it. The feminine dimension, Woman, is everywhere and abundant in many different forms, and it will be there today, tomorrow, and all the other days as well, ready to receive me according to my own ability to instantiate and represent Man. It's a sort of spiritual experiential journey for me.

So I'm always enthusiastic about it, always ready to leave aside my ego so that I can go a bit deeper for a bit longer (literally and figuratively!) into that journey. And I always feel positive about that journey, and what it represents, apart from how I feel about myself - though I know that the better I know myself, and the better my relationship with myself is, the further along that journey I can go.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

The problem is that these illusions can cause a huge disruption to our ability to interact with the world effectively. If we believe we are happy when we are not, believe we are satisfied with ourselves when we are not, believe we are good at something when we're not, believe we want something that we don't actually want, believe that we are having an effect we aren't having, believe that something is coming from outside when it's really coming from inside, that means that our internal and external world don't match, and this causes anxiety, negative tension, and failure to catalyze in other people the emotions that we think we feel ourselves (when subconsciously the emotions running around in us are quite different, and these other emotions are what is being actually transferred in the interaction). For myself, this is usually the problem when I am unable to stick an approach - i.e. I'm rejected immediately or the interactions feel closed off from the get go. I'm experiencing one version of myself, and she's seeing something else from the outside.

I get that and I agree. I've felt myself that sometimes I try to approach looking a certain way, dominant, happy, or whatever else and it feels off. The question is though that if I feel that I am a guy that is not good with women in general, and I have past experiences showing that, when I want to communicate my internal world to the external one, if I do it in a way that they match, I will come off as unattractive. My expressions, mannerisms, actions will be these of a guy that is not confident in his abilities to seduce the girl in front of him.

I feel that's my main problem as well, that at some point I accepted I suck with girls, and simply went on to find ways to get them anyway. So even now, if I meet one randomly my default state is that of someone that wouldn't get her unless he does something. And I also know I am not satisfied with my dating life, so basically most of my interactions feel like trying to showcase myself through different techniques as an attractive option, when I kinda know I am not, since if I were I would have the dating life I want already.

And it gets better by taking action, and focusing on improving the technical parts as you say. In the end though it does feel like I need to reach a certain level of skill to be getting the results I want in order to be able to communicate externally from an internal place of being ok with myself. Because if it bothers me I don't have the girls I want, how can I be truly ok with myself.

Maybe this approach of accepting your place in the universe and fully focusing in the moment is really the answer. I have been following a dating coach that is always saying that you first have to fully accept where you are, be content with your life and don't constantly feel that you have to fix it in order to be happy. And then you can set a goal and go after it without really being affected by the goal. For example you don't crush after a rejection. And also regarding women that you should be able to be present and appreciate them, while being able to let all of them go, knowing you will be perfectly fine without them.

They are good mindsets and approaches in life. It could be that it's simply a mental choice in the end, that you know what, I am just a man in this universe, I love women, and want to experience them. And even if they walk away, I have still experienced them, I am still a man, and I am content with my place here. After that you can go into building the skill of being more seductive, while always feeling that no matter how things go you are fine as it is.

Because I feel that, no matter what else you try to change in your life, you will always have this nagging feeling that you have to do something more to get truly satisfied, and yes technically you can improve, but it will be a constant quest for validation. And the way I see it now, it really is about truly and deeply knowing yourself as you say and living your life accordingly, without waiting for any external metrics that you think you need to hit, in order to be content with it.

 

[Will_V]

They are good mindsets and approaches in life. It could be that it's simply a mental choice in the end, that you know what, I am just a man in this universe, I love women, and want to experience them. And even if they walk away, I have still experienced them, I am still a man, and I am content with my place here. After that you can go into building the skill of being more seductive, while always feeling that no matter how things go you are fine as it is.

This is exactly the mindset that works for me.

But that doesn't mean I don't allow myself to be competitive or go hard after goals in other areas of my life. I simply accept that the nature of my interactions with women are like this. And the main reason is because it is the mirror image of what she wants to feel about herself sexually - she wants to feel like she's just a woman in this universe, she's happy and contented and good enough just the way she is, she's curious and having adventures and enthusiastic about the world, and experiencing all the wonders of men in myriad ways. So my state transfers to her in a way that helps things move forward. This is what we do with sexual framing when we bring out her adventurous experiences and frame sex as something she can explore and enjoy openly, but it's a lot easier to transfer this concept when you embody it.

But if my state is tense and needy and looking for approval and hoping I'm good enough, guess what emotions I trigger in her? Insecurity, because that's what I feel.

I think you're too focused on reaching some standard of expertise with women, as if this validates you and your seductions. It doesn't. No woman cares about your mastery of women. No woman goes home with a guy thinking 'I'm not really in the mood but this guy is definitely a 5-star experience, so I'll take the offer'. She's not looking for some premium man-whore. She comes home because she simply enjoys the way you look at her, the way you touch her, the way you lead her, the way you make her feel in general, and she wants to continue feeling that way. It's all based on the now. Sex and foreplay starts from the moment you greet her on the date, it's just a bit more subtle at the start than it is in the bedroom.

That means you should be focusing on making her feel good and sexual all the time she's with you. Your conversations should be easy and familiar, like the conversations you have after sex. Your touch should be easy and familiar and uninhibited, like she's already your girlfriend. Sometimes I even sit there on a date and just imagine that she's my girlfriend and I'm taking her out for a bite between rounds. And she looks at me and feels that familiarity with me, whereas all the other guys she's dated are sitting across from her like some employee at a job interview, not really seeing her, but trying to prove something to her.

And all the inexperience you have - don't try to fake it or prove anything, just make up for it in enthusiasm and curiosity. Look at her sitting there and think 'I wonder what she'd feel if I touched her there .. or there'. 'I wonder what it would feel like to hold her this way or that way'. 'Would she be a moaner or a panter'. 'What position would she like the most'. 'What would she smell or taste like'. 'How would that hair look like spread all over a pillow'. Suddenly she's this fascinating creature you can't wait to explore, rather than you sitting in your head thinking 'how can I make her believe I'm the Master and Commander of the Sexual Sea'. Now, you don't really care about your skills, you don't need any justification, you just want to experience her. And when you project that calmly and without anxiety, it's a huge turn-on for her. She knows that no matter how good your skills are or your experience is, you will be thoroughly enjoying and exploring her from head to toe, and that's something most women never get to experience. Because most guys are just trying to act cool until they get her to the bedroom, whereupon they just bang her for fifteen minutes the same way all the other guys do and then bounce.

She wants to be something more for someone, she wants to be a garden of discoveries for someone, and that person is going to be you.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I think you're too focused on reaching some standard of expertise with women, as if this validates you and your seductions. It doesn't. No woman cares about your mastery of women. No woman goes home with a guy thinking 'I'm not really in the mood but this guy is definitely a 5-star experience, so I'll take the offer'. She's not looking for some premium man-whore. She comes home because she simply enjoys the way you look at her, the way you touch her, the way you lead her, the way you make her feel in general, and she wants to continue feeling that way. It's all based on the now. Sex and foreplay starts from the moment you greet her on the date, it's just a bit more subtle at the start than it is in the bedroom.

I see what you mean here. I wouldn't say I want to reach a standard of expertise just to feel validated that I am good at seduction. It's more about seeing that I don't get the results I want right now, so I feel I have to get better to achieve them. I really wouldn't care about being considered top seducer or anything if I could be sleeping with the women I want regularly. It just feels that all these things you describe, how to touch, how to lead, how to make her feel, I have to learn how to do. Ot at least whenever I have tried to just do them, they felt uncalibrated. So I decided that ok I have to learn how to escalate touching, how to set frames so that she feels allowed to express herself, how to lead her in ways that she enjoys and I don't create negative compliance.

That means you should be focusing on making her feel good and sexual all the time she's with you. Your conversations should be easy and familiar, like the conversations you have after sex. Your touch should be easy and familiar and uninhibited, like she's already your girlfriend. Sometimes I even sit there on a date and just imagine that she's my girlfriend and I'm taking her out for a bite between rounds. And she looks at me and feels that familiarity with me, whereas all the other guys she's dated are sitting across from her like some employee at a job interview, not really seeing her, but trying to prove something to her.

Yes I understand that. Maybe the fact that I've never had a girlfriend affects me here. I mean I've never felt a woman liking me sexually day to day, in a way that I can be natural with her and retain attraction, and not due to running a good seduction to get her to bed. Even after sex, I'd say that I do feel more free to express myself, but I also feel that if I expressed myself in that way before sex, she wouldn't have had sex with me. It's probably a limiting belief, that said it's really not because I want to be a great seducer or reach some arbitrary metric, I just want to be able to share sexual experiences with the women I like, and it has never seemed to work unless I approach seduction as something to work on. Even how to make her feel sexual or how to make the conversations easy and familiar is something I have to think about, since if I don't, I will either come off creepily sexual, or I will get into fun conversations to nowhere.

It's the mix we talked about before, in the end. You firstly express yourself and experience her, and then you keep in mind the steps you need to take to move things forward as well. I guess what I do is I also think how to express myself, because my default state is not exciting them sexually. And it creates this lack of congruence that you mentioned in my reports as well, that on one hand I describe how I am sexually open, I love the sexual nature of women and experiencing it together, and on the other hand I don't come off as someone sexy, dominant and generally a guy she would enjoy sharing this experience with.

So I suppose I have to find ways to bring this sexual masculine persona out somehow. I know it's there, I have felt it sporadically , but most of the times I don't access it. Maybe it's a limiting belief of thinking that if I bring it out in a uncalibrated way, it will be too intense, and women and people in general would be scared and would want to stay away. I'm kinda afraid of letting it out in that sense. For example, during moments where she plays coy at my place, stops the kissing or the escalation. My feeling is that I should get more intense, manhandle her, grab her breasts, take my cock out and put her hand on it, overwhelm her with the passion I feel. But I am afraid of doing all these thing in an uncalibrated way that will push it too far into sexual assault territory, and harm the girl. So I end up taking a step back, then chilling, and even if I take a step forward in a bit again, it feels like she has full control, deciding what things will happen, which usually leads to nothing happening.

And all the inexperience you have - don't try to fake it or prove anything, just make up for it in enthusiasm and curiosity. Look at her sitting there and think 'I wonder what she'd feel if I touched her there .. or there'. 'I wonder what it would feel like to hold her this way or that way'. 'Would she be a moaner or a panter'. 'What position would she like the most'. 'What would she smell or taste like'. 'How would that hair look like spread all over a pillow'. Suddenly she's this fascinating creature you can't wait to explore, rather than you sitting in your head thinking 'how can I make her believe I'm the Master and Commander of the Sexual Sea'. Now, you don't really care about your skills, you don't need any justification, you just want to experience her. And when you project that calmly and without anxiety, it's a huge turn-on for her. She knows that no matter how good your skills are or your experience is, you will be thoroughly enjoying and exploring her from head to toe, and that's something most women never get to experience. Because most guys are just trying to act cool until they get her to the bedroom, whereupon they just bang her for fifteen minutes the same way all the other guys do and then bounce.

This is something I have felt in fact. When I lost my virginity my mindset was more or less like this, that I know nothing, but I want to explore her and devour every inch of her in such a way that no other guy can do. And I truly believed that in my first sexual experiences, it was probably the time of my life that I was sexually confident the most, because I knew that no matter what, I would be present and create an amazing experience for both of us.

But lately, after having some sexual failures, erection issues, ejaculating prematurely, I have gotten way more into my head. And this is because I feel that I truly want her, and want to take her with my cock, but sometimes it feels I can't because of these issues. When I was able to just be in the moment even lately, feeling a strong erection and no immediate craving to orgasm, I did have incredible experiences again, even without some crazy technique.

So I'd say that for me this is vital. And I don't mean never having any such problems, but more knowing that I have some control over my penis, so they don't happen again and again. Because this aspect of male and female interactions is the absolutely most fascinating to me, I love being with a woman and exploring her to the fullest, I find sex as something unparalleled and it's the main thing I value and want to offer to a woman. So I think losing confidence in how I make her feel through it, has led me to lose confidence in my raw masculine ability to excite her and take her, which comes off in my vibe , and I end up focusing a lot on different techniques to get around that.

I feel that in the end, apart from some lifestyle changes, to help with my libido and sexual health, the most important thing is to get back to this mindset you described. That no matter what happens technically, I am a man, and I simply desire to totally consume you sexually and I am curious to discover and celebrate everything about your sexual essence.

 

[Will_V]

It just feels that all these things you describe, how to touch, how to lead, how to make her feel, I have to learn how to do. Ot at least whenever I have tried to just do them, they felt uncalibrated. So I decided that ok I have to learn how to escalate touching, how to set frames so that she feels allowed to express herself, how to lead her in ways that she enjoys and I don't create negative compliance.

What I've found to be very useful is to hold fast to the belief that all the ways that I want to act around women, I already am, and the things that get in the way of me expressing myself are things that have made their way unauthorized into my mind, and are things that I have to work to remove. As opposed to believing that the person I want to be is a persona that must be constructed on top of what I already am.

When you think about it:

- Do you feel the impulse to touch her?
- Do you feel the impulse to lead her?
- Do you feel the impulse to make her feel things?

If so, that is the deepest reality of who you really truly are. If you cannot express it, there is an obstacle, not a lack. Identifying and removing the obstacle is the goal.

Yes I understand that. Maybe the fact that I've never had a girlfriend affects me here. I mean I've never felt a woman liking me sexually day to day, in a way that I can be natural with her and retain attraction, and not due to running a good seduction to get her to bed. Even after sex, I'd say that I do feel more free to express myself, but I also feel that if I expressed myself in that way before sex, she wouldn't have had sex with me.

That's an interesting and nuanced point. It's true that if you express yourself freely, or 'be yourself' around women, it can be counterproductive. But this comes again down to whether the thing we're expressing is the reality of who we are, or insecurity.

Take a man who is a good leader, who every day comes around and he's positive, calm, self assured, doesn't put up with nonsense but is fair in his reactions, handles problems rationally and clear-headedly, metes out rewards and punishments according to the deed, and takes care of setting positive frames that reinforce what he wants to reinforce and sweep away what he wants to sweep away. Is that a guy you'd want to be? Probably.

Now look at him, is that who he 'really' is? What would it take for that man to really be the person he presents as being? Would it be difficult to authentically be that? And if so, why should it be more difficult than being needy or emotional or reactive? It should certainly feel good to be effective, if nothing else.

Becoming that man in a self-sustainable way is the goal of male self development. And there is no shortcut except putting yourself in difficult situations, and finding a way to stay as that man in your own mind. Like physical training (and this is why physical training is such a good analogy for self development) he simply becomes sufficient to meet the demands through repetition. It's your job to manage yourself in this process, to manage your exertions, give yourself as good feedback as you can, and to give yourself sufficient time to rest and grow.

Maintaining your frame around women is the equivalent of doing 1000 pushups a day. If you let it get to you ' damn that's a lot!', you'll emotionally falter and give up. But if you relax, maintain self awareness, and just focus on doing a good job on the next repetition, you realize that the actual 'weight' of a woman is very small, and soon it is just second nature to handle her and lead her around even when she's being a bit difficult or insecure.

One more thing I'll say is: don't spend all your time or emotional energy around women. Learn to express it with other people or with other means of self expression, and you'll find you don't feel so needy with her, and it's much easier to keep an even keel.

It's the mix we talked about before, in the end. You firstly express yourself and experience her, and then you keep in mind the steps you need to take to move things forward as well. I guess what I do is I also think how to express myself, because my default state is not exciting them sexually. And it creates this lack of congruence that you mentioned in my reports as well, that on one hand I describe how I am sexually open, I love the sexual nature of women and experiencing it together, and on the other hand I don't come off as someone sexy, dominant and generally a guy she would enjoy sharing this experience with.

I think the best way to deal with this is to let your natural, impulsive sexuality come out in your body language and your internal experience of her, without worrying too much about what she thinks. And then once it's freely flowing, it's much easier to guide it so that it helps you achieve what you want.

Where there is inhibition, there's usually a lot of emotion tied to it, sometimes pretty negative emotions or neediness. That's something that simply has to be worked through, by opening up as much as you can in your self expression each time, avoiding focusing too much on her reactions, and giving yourself enough of a runway to succeed.

Once you are centered and uninhibited in your natural self expression, that it's about refining things in such a way as to be as successful and effective as possible.

So I suppose I have to find ways to bring this sexual masculine persona out somehow. I know it's there, I have felt it sporadically , but most of the times I don't access it. Maybe it's a limiting belief of thinking that if I bring it out in a uncalibrated way, it will be too intense, and women and people in general would be scared and would want to stay away. I'm kinda afraid of letting it out in that sense. For example, during moments where she plays coy at my place, stops the kissing or the escalation. My feeling is that I should get more intense, manhandle her, grab her breasts, take my cock out and put her hand on it, overwhelm her with the passion I feel. But I am afraid of doing all these thing in an uncalibrated way that will push it too far into sexual assault territory, and harm the girl. So I end up taking a step back, then chilling, and even if I take a step forward in a bit again, it feels like she has full control, deciding what things will happen, which usually leads to nothing happening.

Another interesting point, and I have something specific to say on that, because I felt the same way for a long time.

What I do is I let the emotion out of where it's trapped, into my body and into my mind, I let it sort of wash over me, and I keep my attention on it rather than trying to suppress it. Then, I physically relax, and I keep my body still, and enjoy the fire lit inside me. And then I will smile and look at her calmly in the eye, and let her see whatever she sees there, and just .. enjoy it with her, whether she's sitting or standing or lying there with me.

Girls intuitively understand that kind of energy, they intuitively understand that this is the primordial essence of a man. And it is her instinct to validate it and nurture it, if it does not threaten her.

And even if she doesn't validate it, have you not just validated yourself?

This is something I have felt in fact. When I lost my virginity my mindset was more or less like this, that I know nothing, but I want to explore her and devour every inch of her in such a way that no other guy can do. And I truly believed that in my first sexual experiences, it was probably the time of my life that I was sexually confident the most, because I knew that no matter what, I would be present and create an amazing experience for both of us.

That's the ideal way to introduce yourself to the world of women.

But lately, after having some sexual failures, erection issues, ejaculating prematurely, I have gotten way more into my head. And this is because I feel that I truly want her, and want to take her with my cock, but sometimes it feels I can't because of these issues. When I was able to just be in the moment even lately, feeling a strong erection and no immediate craving to orgasm, I did have incredible experiences again, even without some crazy technique.

So I'd say that for me this is vital. And I don't mean never having any such problems, but more knowing that I have some control over my penis, so they don't happen again and again. Because this aspect of male and female interactions is the absolutely most fascinating to me, I love being with a woman and exploring her to the fullest, I find sex as something unparalleled and it's the main thing I value and want to offer to a woman. So I think losing confidence in how I make her feel through it, has led me to lose confidence in my raw masculine ability to excite her and take her, which comes off in my vibe , and I end up focusing a lot on different techniques to get around that.

The truth is that erection problems are virtually always psychological. All the times I've had trouble, it's because of lack of self esteem. As soon as I could remove my self esteem from the woman in front of me, and focus on what I wanted to do in that moment, it magically went away.

That's why focusing on just exploring and enjoying what's in front of you, and knowing that future experiences are coming regardless of how this one turns out, is very powerful.

I feel that in the end, apart from some lifestyle changes, to help with my libido and sexual health, the most important thing is to get back to this mindset you described. That no matter what happens technically, I am a man, and I simply desire to totally consume you sexually and I am curious to discover and celebrate everything about your sexual essence.

Absolutely!