Enforcing standards with really hot girls

[Bboy100]

There's this interesting phenomenon about male mating behavior. If we see a really beautiful women, some part of us wants to have sex with her. We may choose not to for a variety of social or logical reasons. But on a completely primal level, there are probably very few things that can happen which would cause us to lose interest in sex with her.


Because of this, I've found that its difficult to genuinely have standards with very attractive girls. Sure, we can have standards in the sense that we consciously choose to NEXT her and cut contact with her. But we're still not sexually turned off by her like women are by men who do stupid shit.

For example,

On tinder the other day, I was talking to this girl. She pretty much looked like a supermodel. Could have easily been on the cover of a magazine. I don't have the conversation anymore, but it went something along these lines:
Me: [I ask her some question, forgot what it is]
Her: [Replies with a one word answer]
Me: [Relates to her one word answer with an entire paragraph]
Her: [One word answer again]
Me: I feel like text isn't a very good way of getting to know each other. Want to go out for drinks tonight?
Her: I'm down.
Her: Add me on snapchat?
Me: Sure. Let's meet at x place at x time?
Her: Maybe

On a logical level, this chick is already irritating to me. She refuses to reply with more than one word, literally just said that she's down to meet me, then two minutes later, she changed her mind to "maybe".

On Snapchat:
Her: Hey babe, send me some pics of that body.
Her: I want to see it.
Me: Sure, I'm down to trade pics.
Her: No response.
Me: Haha, that's what I thought. Look, I'm down to meet you at your place or in public for drinks so we can get a feel for each other. If it goes well, then I'll let you see my body
Her: Huh?

I didn't reply to that. The fact that she can't or has no desire to hold a conversation, changed her mind within the span of two minutes for no reason, wants me to send her nudes without reciprocating, and isn't even down to meet me before we fuck is a pretty NEXTable offense. Plus, it was clear that this is going no where fast. Even if I had sent her the pic of my bod, it's likely she would have asked me a bunch more questions, or continued putting it off and eventually stop replying altogether (I know this from experience). Girls like these are time sinks.

But my point is, that regardless of her ridiculous behavior, I still wanted her. I wasn't sexually turned off by her. The decision to stop talking to her was a logical one. Whereas if this was reversed (i.e. I'm the women and she's the man), I would have been turned off by this behavior both logically and emotionally. This is a problem because it makes it very hard to enforce personal boundaries and not accept bad behavior from women. Because on some level, regardless of what they do, I'm still attracted to them. Do you guys know any way of dealing with this issue?

 

[PrettyDecent]

Bboy,

That sounds frustrating, man. I understand.

Try not to get caught up using the same process on every girl. This one required some pics and banter on your part. But it was almost an ideal set-up for sex on the first date.

I know your thought process is, "if she doesn't comply with meeting me in person, it's a waste of time."

That's only half-true. You have to time it correctly. And you pushed too-hard too-soon.

See, she's on the hunt for sex. That's why she doesn't want to chit chat. She wants to quickly see if your body is sexually attractive. Then she'll test how you can handle a sexually charged interaction...and if you'll be cool-headed and playful about it.

Those two things out of the way, there's a good chance you can get laid that night.

Playful and cool-headed...remember that.

Nick

 

[Bboy100]

Hey Nick, good to hear from you! I loved your podcast on the main site

See, she's on the hunt for sex. That's why she doesn't want to chit chat. She wants to quickly see if your body is sexually attractive. Then she'll test how you can handle a sexually charged interaction...and if you'll be cool-headed and playful about it.

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining or like this can't be done because you're totally right, I'm sure I'm misplaying these conversations a lot of the time. So maybe I do have some things to improve on. But in my experience, when a girl directly asks for sex online, it usually goes no where. I get conversations like these fairly often, and the result is usually one of three things:

After she solicits me for sex, she either
1. asks me a million qualifying questions, some of which are pretty personal (e.g. sexual history, questions about dick size, whether or not I'm currently fucking other girls etc). Eventually, she doesn't like my answer to one of them and stops replying (e.g. last time i had a conversation with a girl like this, she asked me "when's the last time you had sex?" I told her it was three days ago which was true. She didn't like that answer. Sure, I could have lied, but who knows if I would have picked a range which she deems "acceptable"). And if I evaded the question via playfulness, self-deprecating humor or other forms of passing "tests" I'm 90% sure she would have flaked (based on past experiences).
2. Like in this case, I refuse compliance in some way shape or form and she flakes.
3. She agrees to meet me, but come time to actually hang out, she gets cold feet and flakes <--This is about 80% of the cases. In fact, it happened earlier today lol.

Admittedly, this does work out for me pretty often. In fact, I got my first threesome via a similar type conversation. But that's only because I get a LOT of conversations like these. The ratio of direct requests I get for sex from girls online vs the amount that actually happens is still pretty low.

My theory is that they really are on the hunt for sex. But they still have a few fears and anxieties around fucking some random guy which are very hard to address over text.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Hey Bboy,

Ah, that's my bad. I don't have much experience online dating (or at all, actually), and you have tested data, so you're going to outweigh me here!

I'm curious to see what your past conversations look like, man. Especially the ones with banter and initial compliance. I wonder if you couldn't jump up her compliance through the conversation somehow. Like starting off with something small and escalating it.

Nick

 

[Thedoctor]

Bboy,

Because of this, I've found that its difficult to genuinely have standards with very attractive girls. Sure, we can have standards in the sense that we consciously choose to NEXT her and cut contact with her. But we're still not sexually turned off by her like women are by men who do stupid shit.

This sounds like an abundance mentality issue. It's not often, but there are times when an otherwise hot girl can totally turn me off. And yet there was a time in my youth when I would have shot down a slide of razor blades into a pool of hepatitis just to go on a date with one of these chicks.

Online dating is really its own thing. Any conclusions you draw from it should be reserved to applying it online. For instance, I doubt the "20 questions about your sexual history" happens to you in real life. And if it does, it's likely that you need to make her feel more comfortable with you. Whereas, in your example, I think it's more indicative that your online conversations are taking a bad turn somewhere. Like Nick said, it might be a good idea to post a few convos from start to finish to figure out where you're going wrong.

-John

 

[Bboy100]

NIck,

I mean, you're point isn't totally invalid. I'm notorious for being bad at texting girls. Especially compared to my behavior IRL. So its true that I might be messing up.

TheDoctor,

This sounds like an abundance mentality issue. It's not often, but there are times when an otherwise hot girl can totally turn me off.

Sure. If she does something absolutely ridiculous (e.g. There was this one girl who was making out with me and almost slept with me on my Birthday. But at the last moment, she decided no and instead started making out with my best friend. I later found out she was just doing this to pit us against each other cause she's bitter towards men).

But short of behavior like that or worse, I find it hard to be turned off to girls like these. It's not like with other girls who are just "ok" or "cute" who I can drop both logically, and emotionally the moment they do something wrong or distasteful. But yeah, it admittedly is partially an abundance issue. I find these girls somewhat rare. Online, there's comparably few of them, and even as I walk around on the streets doing Day Game, I see them relatively rarely. I've had very few dates with such girls.

But is that really the whole story? Even if I was surrounded by them all the time, I feel like on some primal level, it would still be hard to say no to them. Just because I feel like I'm fighting instinct by doing so.

Any conclusions you draw from it should be reserved to applying it online.

Yeah, ofc. Pretty much non of this applies to IRL.

I'm curious to see what your past conversations look like, man. Especially the ones with banter and initial compliance.

Like Nick said, it might be a good idea to post a few convos from start to finish to figure out where you're going wrong.

Unfortunately, most these girls delete their Tinders very quickly. Probably cause they struggle to find what they're looking for lol. So I only have the one from yesterday. But I'll also try rescrpipting the one I remember most vividly from memory. Some details are off or missing, but I think I remember the basic gist of it.

Here it is:

Her: Hey
Me: Hi, how are you?
Her: Ok
Me: So, I know this is kind of fast, but I feel like text isn't a very good way of getting to know each other. Want to grab coffee or something sometime?
Her: Yeah, sure
Me: Ok, cool! When are you free?
Her: [No reply}
Me: We can also chat on here first as well. I totally understand if you're not comfortable meeting me yet
Her: What's up with you? You model or something?
Her: Where you at?
Me: I live inn Redmond, I'm down to come to Seattle though
Her: Yeah?
Me: When are you free?
Her: Anytime to see that body! Lol
Me: I'm down Are you free tonight?
Her: I think I am. I'm not sure though. <--She sent this like, 4 hours later. By then I was already out with friends. So I didn't reply till I got home.
Me: Sorry about the long reply time! If you're still up, I'm down to come meet you. Otherwise maybe some other day?
Her: Let's do tomorrow.
Me: Ok, but it'll have to be sometime after [x time], I already have plans to meet a friend tomorrow
Her: Are you fucking this "friend"
Me: Naw, its an old friend who I haven't seen in a long time. So I'm pretty sure there are no plans to have sex with him [laughing emoji] <---This was false. It actually was a girl I'm seeing. But its a white lie anyways. So it doesn't matter.
Her: hahah, what are you wearing right now?
Her: When is the last time you fucked?
Me: I'm wearing nothing. I'm in bed right now
Me: By myself
Her: When is the last time you fucked?
Me: I don't think it should matter. And tbh, based on the amount of questions you're asking me, it sounds like you still have some anxieties about doing this. If you want to just hang out or something first so we can get a feel for each other, I'd be more than happy to do that.
Her: [No reply]

I get what happened here.That last response was pretty weak. A better response might have been something cheeky like "curiosity killed the cat " or self-depreciating like "I'm a virgin. Please help![laughing emoji]". But again, I was kind of annoyed that she was asking me shit like this in the first place. And this actually ties into the point of this whole post. Why is it that I should sit there qualifying myself to some girl I don't know for hours just to get access to her vagina? Especially since she's getting the same thing in return (i.e. we both get sex. Why is it that I'm the only one who has to go through a qualification process). Sometimes, I just feel like if she's so indecisive, maybe I should just not have sex with her and go find someone who's more sure of what they want.

This next one is straight from my phone. Happened yesterday. Admittedly, I was the one to initiate a sexual context. So its not exactly what we we're talking about. But she still flaked in the same way other girls who directly ask for or heavily imply sex do.

Context: I'm living with my parents for the summer. I can't just invite a girl I've never even met before back to my place. Right now, my strategy is either her place, public sex, or going on an actual date, then pulling to my parents house.

Here it is:
Her: Hey
Me: Hi
Me: I know this is kind of fast, but want to go for coffee sometime? I feel like text isn't a very good way of getting to know each other
Her: We could do that But I'm not from here and I'm leaving on Wednesday... <---This is when I decided she's probably just trynna fuck. No other reason why she would message me first then tell me this.
Me: Ahh, that's unfortunate. Well in that case, we could grab a bottle of wine and just drink by the lake or something
Me: I promise I'm not an axe murderer [Laughing emoji]
Her: You just make a girl drunk ? [Winking+tongue sticking out emoji]
Me: Yeah, that's all I do in life [laughing emoji]
Her: Make girls drunk and work out haha
Me: Naw, I don't even work out. THose abs are totally drawn on [laughing emoji]
Her: Hahahaha faaakkkeeee [laughimg emoji]
Me: But for realz, if you're not comfortable drinking, that's totally cool. We can just do coffee <--I actually could tell she was perfectly fine with drinking. Otherwise it's unlikely that she would still be talking to me. I only said this so it doesn't feel like I'm pressuring her/trying to sell her on it. Cause that would cause more resistance.
Her: I'm comfortable with drinking But I'm not sure if I'm comfortable walking alone through Seattle at night to find my hostel haha. There are axe murderers in every corner [Monkey with hands over mouth emoji] and they are just waiting for a drunk girl
Me: ahaha, that's true. I dunno why, but a lot of people in Seattle are really creepy. But we can just get you an Uber or something?
Her: We could think about that... Where do you live?
ME: I live in Redmond. Like, 15 mins away
Her: Okay
Her: What's your favorite place in Seattle. ?
Me: Well, I usually go to the bars, But since you're still 19, we can probably go to Madison beach instead
Her: I guess. Coffee would be easier haha
Me: Its nbd,, Madison beach is pretty isolated during the weekdays. But if you prefer coffee, I'm down for that <---I could have been more persistant that we go drinking here. But I feel like that's not very effective over text. Girls like to feel like they made the decision, not that I pressured them into it. So instead, I hoped she would change her mind again when I told her the place is isolated etc.
Her: All day long haha I still need to plan my day with some touristic stuff.

Admittedly, she may not have been 100% sure of my sexual intent in this one. Cause there is quite a bit of plausible deniability. But tbh, I feel like most girls would know exactly what's going on here. For most girls, Alcohol+being alone with a guy is an implied invitation for sex.

 

[Thedoctor]

Bboy,

But is that really the whole story? Even if I was surrounded by them all the time, I feel like on some primal level, it would still be hard to say no to them. Just because I feel like I'm fighting instinct by doing so.

I'll use a bit of a hyperbolic example to illustrate the point of abundance: Let's say you had a harem of 1,000,000 chicks. They're all absolutely gorgeous. Even for the best of us, it would be impossible to sleep with anywhere near that number. So you'd have to decide by looking at other qualities other than their looks, whether that be intelligence, humour, ambitions etc. You wouldn't have a choice. You'd have to decide that way. And that's really all abundance is. The realisation that there are a ton of beautiful women out there with many attractive qualities, and the realisation that you can pair up with many of them anytime you'd like.

As for the text examples, like I mentioned before, i haven't done a lot of online, so I'm probably not the best guy to analyze everything, but here are my overall thoughts:

I get what you're trying to do with the initial "let's meet" text, but is it actually getting you results? And by results, I mean does it sometimes end in you getting a date with her or does the convo just eventually go dead? Don't make the mistake of thinking it's a positive result if the dates are not occurring. The overall impression I get is that you're overly eager to meet, and not just with the first text.

Based on the convos, it seems that your pics are top notch and you must be a pretty good looking cat, then you shouldn't be that overly eager to meet up with a girl. There's a chance they may think you're too easy, and this could be why the sexual history questions pop up. Even if a chick is only seeking sex, most people want to feel like they worked even a tiny bit for it.

The other thing I noticed is that there's a lack of congruency. Especially in the second convo where you're trying to reassure her you don't need to go drinking when she seemed fine with it. And in that convo, I think you kind of blew off her question of where your favourite place is. She's a tourist. You could have responded by saying the 2 of you should check out this great "hole in the wall place" or something of that nature. But you just mentioned "bars" and offered the beach as alternative. She even mentioned afterwards that she needed to book more touristy stuff, so in this case, I really think that's where it went wrong. She's the tourist, be her guide.

-John

 

[Bboy100]

I'll use a bit of a hyperbolic example to illustrate the point of abundance: Let's say you had a harem of 1,000,000 chicks.

Hmm yeah, I guess I can understand what you're saying and even relate to this. These days, if a girl anything short of drop dead gorgous does anything dumb, I feel no desire to see her again because I can literally find another one like her in a day or two. Whereas when I first started out, I would accept almost any behavior from pretty much all girls I was interest in. So I guess you're right. This probably is an abundance issue. Thanks for pointing this out TheDoctor

I get what you're trying to do with the initial "let's meet" text, but is it actually getting you results? And by results, I mean does it sometimes end in you getting a date with her or does the convo just eventually go dead? Don't make the mistake of thinking it's a positive result if the dates are not occurring.

Yes, I do get dates. I use this strategy almost exclusively, and I can find anywhere between 1-5 dates a week. I don't always ask them out on the first text. But even if I don't, the convos still usually aren't exceptionally long nor substantive.

And in that convo, I think you kind of blew off her question of where your favourite place is.

LOL! I just now realize that that's what she meant. I thought she was asking where my favorite place to go drinking is cause at that point in the convo, we were planning out where we're going to meet. Wow, my bad. ahaha

Based on the convos, it seems that your pics are top notch and you must be a pretty good looking cat, then you shouldn't be that overly eager to meet up with a girl.

Yeah, I never thought about this. I think this might be even worse for me. Cause based on my pics, I'm this super high value guy who should have plenty of women around him. Then when I text the girls, I might look like the exact opposite. This incongruence might even cause them to believe that my profile itself is a fraud in some way. Whereas a guy with an average profile might get a bit more leeway because she can understand where he's coming from. Good observation!

But this poses an issue for me...how do I have conversations which are actually interesting. Cause in my experiance, online conversations have the same caveats of texting. So they'll usually go one of three ways:
1. I ask her questions about herself, she answers. I relate back/qualify. Rinse and repeat. And if this was IRL, that would be fine. But over text, its honestly tedious and boring. And she probably feels the same way.
2. I make lots of jokes and insert lots of humor into the conversation. Her response is usually just "lol" or "haha". If I continue to do this over and over again, I"ll look super tryhard. And certainly, no qualifying will get done.
3. I do a mix of both. I mostly ask her questions and relate back, but also have some humor. This one is probably best, and its what I usually do if I don't ask her out right away. But it still has the same weaknesses as both the first two strategies. The jokes still look somewhat tryhard, and the "deep diving" type conversation is still kinda boring.

Moreover, a lot of the girls who get a lot of attention will often give short, one word replies with which I can't go anywhere at all. When this happens, I feel pretty much forced to ask her out on the spot. Otherwise the conversation will just be me typing paragraphs, and her typing one word responses- not a good look.

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes, I'll have interesting text conversations. It's not impossible. But it usually requires that the girl be the type who contributes a lot to the convo on her own and doesn't just say "lol" or give short, surface level answers.

 

[ProblemSolving]

The reason you have trouble enforcing standards with really hot girls is simply because, like Doctor already pointed out, lack of abundance. Trust me, this girl that you were talking to has the kind of abundance that would make your head spin. This is why she barely put any effort into the conversation and made all kinds of demands - you were essentially a dime a dozen to her. If you want the stunners, it's best to stick to daygame and social circle where the girls don't have limitless online abundance.

With that said, she could've possibly been DTF. Girls will often ask for more pics to ensure that you're not trying to pull a bait and switch with them, where the guy that answers the door looks nothing like the pics in his profile. I usually just send them a pic and text "Your turn". They usually comply and we're off to the races.

Yeah, I never thought about this. I think this might be even worse for me. Cause based on my pics, I'm this super high value guy who should have plenty of women around him. Then when I text the girls, I might look like the exact opposite. This incongruence might even cause them to believe that my profile itself is a fraud in some way. Whereas a guy with an average profile might get a bit more leeway because she can understand where he's coming from. Good observation!

Nope, move fast or prepare to have your time wasted like most chumps online. A high value guy has so many options he doesn't waste time with boring chit chat over text because it doesn't accomplish anything but waste both of your time. I quite often get girls saying, "Whoa, you move fast!" But they go along with it anyway. You can't text your way into her pants as much as you might be tempted to. Leave the girls that just want a text buddy and "chat for a little longer" to the clueless guys that don't know any better. Girls that are excited about you, and are ready to meet up and potentially get laid, don't need their hand held.

One critique I have about your texts is, "When are you free?" I try to avoid this at all costs because girls are terrible planners which will cause them to overthink things and not respond at all or pick a day way too far in the future. Stick to are you free tonight or tomorrow?

 

[Thedoctor]

Bboy,

Yes, I do get dates. I use this strategy almost exclusively, and I can find anywhere between 1-5 dates a week. I don't always ask them out on the first text. But even if I don't, the convos still usually aren't exceptionally long nor substantive.

That sounds pretty good. But based, on what you were saying before, it seems like you're having trouble landing the "really hot girls" you mentioned. If this is working on different types of girls across the board, then ignore what I'm saying. But, keep in mind, you're forgiven more mistakes when you pursue girls who may be slightly lower value than you.

To clarify what I said earlier, there's a distinct difference between moving fast and appearing eager, particularly when you're unnecessarily qualifying yourself with those sexual history questions. You always want to move fast, but you never want to appear eager.

-John

 

[Bboy100]

To clarify what I said earlier, there's a distinct difference between moving fast and appearing eager, particularly when you're unnecessarily qualifying yourself with those sexual history questions.

Ahh, I see. So how would you go about moving fast without appearing eager? Also, given that its likely she would just move on to the next guy if I don't answer her qualifying questions, how would I go about deflecting them?

it seems like you're having trouble landing the "really hot girls" you mentioned.

Yes. But I'm still not sure if its because of what ProblemSolving said about how much abundance they have online, or if its because there are simply relatively few of them (at best, they're going to be only 5-10% of the Tinder population if not less).

If you want the stunners, it's best to stick to daygame and social circle where the girls don't have limitless online abundance.

Yeah, I never thought about it that way. I've been neglecting Day Game in Seattle lately cause every time I go out, I don't really find women who are much hotter than the ones I match with on Tinder. But I guess this would be a good reason to keep going. Even though they may not be hotter, I won't just be "another guy on Tinder". It'll be possible for me to signal attractiveness much more effectively. So getting them out with me will be much easier (given that I actually get half-decent at day game at some point in the near future lol).

As for social circle...I actually have a lot of social anxiety when hanging out with groups of people I have social ties to. For this reason, I'm unusually ineffective at social circle game. Like...I'm probably no better than your average guy. Maybe worse. But I am working to take care of said anxiety rn haha.

Stick to are you free tonight or tomorrow?

Ok, will try this.


And thanks for the help guys! Its much appreciated

 

[ProblemSolving]

it seems like you're having trouble landing the "really hot girls" you mentioned.

Yes. But I'm still not sure if its because of what ProblemSolving said about how much abundance they have online, or if its because there are simply relatively few of them (at best, they're going to be only 5-10% of the Tinder population if not less).

It's both. You could tell she wasn't very excited about you by how little she invested in the conversation (Ie: You're not a scarce resource to her). However, that doesn't mean other 5-10% chicks will feel the same way. You don't have to change your process up for these girls, they just have ridiculous abundance which makes them harder to lay and VERY hard to retain online. It's a numbers game, the more "really hot chicks" you hit on, the more you get laid.

Yeah, I never thought about it that way. I've been neglecting Day Game in Seattle lately cause every time I go out, I don't really find women who are much hotter than the ones I match with on Tinder.

This is very true. In my experience, Tinder is perfect for racking up low fuss lays with minimal effort, but is terrible for getting a 5-10% girl into a relationship, since the amount of abundance they have will mean you'll be competing with guys that live closer to her (a very big advantage), possibly better looking and with more money. Not only that, but these guys will still have to wait on her timetable for sex because she will have more options than any of the guys she dates despite the guy being the cream of the crop. Due to supply and demand, the scales are tipped heavily in the woman's favor online.

Even though they may not be hotter, I won't just be "another guy on Tinder".

Trust me, there are a lot of other comparable guys out there, otherwise you'd have a top 5-10% chick as a girlfriend with relative ease.

So getting them out with me will be much easier

Yep, getting dates, getting the lay, and having a relationship with these girls is all easier offline because you won't be competing with thousands of other guys haha. The trick to getting these girls offline is finding enough of them to approach and determining their sexual availability.