Freaking out when my girl says no to sex. What to do?

[kristian]

Hi fellas.

I haven't been here for a wile, but I could really need some new perspectives on this issue. Especially from the guys with some experience in a long term relationship.

I have been dating this wonderful woman for more than six months (we started hooking up a year ago or so). She has been really good to me, helping me financially and supporting me emotionally in a time where we both are going through some big changes in our lifes. She is seven years older than me, have four kids and let me have an open relationship with her, meaning that I can see other girls from time to time as she knows how important this skillset is to me. We talk openly about everything, and I never had a connection with anybody like I have with her.

However; all this moment we are having some heavy arguments. Mostly about sex. You see; when we first got together we had sex all the time. The last three weeks she has been working a lot (for an organisation from home mostly) and has declined my moves to intimacy a couple of times. She tells me it has nothing to do with me (cos four out of five times she wants to have sex with me), but I was so used to have sex so frequently (once or twice a day at least) that when she says no, I tend to get reactive and start an argument. Then, because she said no, I try even harder making it very weird afterwards. She tells me that me pushing her to have sex will not work and at worst make her want it less and less with me. But the thing is that in my mind I get really furious; "Is she getting tired of me?" "I'm I not sexy enough?" and all this nonsense is making me a little nuts.

I know I have an almost insatiable appetite for sex. And she tells me she never met a guy with so much lust for her (in a positive way). Could it be this? Is it normal that sex drive goes a little down once the honeymoon period is over? Or am I overreacting over this?

You see when she, for some reason, says "not now", I tend to get crushed and cant hide it. And it doesn't look pretty either. And after that I tend to just pull away and don't talk for many hours.

I really love this girl, and I am now realizing that my sex drive is much higher than hers and a lot of other people I know (I want to have sex at least twice per day, she is more like once every other day). Could this be a reason?

And how should I react if she says no? I mean, I don't want to make her feel punished for saying "not now". We talked about it and she told me that she also want me to come to her just to cuddle sometimes. And that she feels cheap because I only act romantic when I want sex. Has the drop hit us? Im I starting to relax too much and now only seeing her as a sex-doll? Or could it be a combination of all mentioned.

I know there is a lot of questions. My mind seems a little foggy right now and I cant think clearly. I guess my question is; what experiences do you have with this?

Thank you for all the support fellas. I could really need some advice moving forward so we can figure this out.

 

[Franco]

kristian,

In general, open relationships are very volatile. It's rare that a woman's sex drive ever "drops" for a man unless she's wanting him to do something (or not doing something) that he's not doing (or is doing).

In this case, based on the fact that she said she just wants you to "cuddle" her sometimes instead of have sex with her, it sounds to me like she's over the "open" aspect of your relationship and she's trying to rope you into something more. After awhile, a woman eventually has to start seeing a man who will commit to her, especially if she has children, otherwise she'll get too much outside pressure to maintain that type of relationship.

The last thing you want to do is get angry or frustrated when she won't have sex with you. That actually is quite a turn-off for a woman; it's better to be indifferent toward her attitude rather than show emotional frustration toward it. Instead, it sounds to me that you need to have a discussion with her next time she tries to freeze you out -- tell her that you always enjoy having sex with her and that you know she enjoys having sex with you, so why is she suddenly reluctant to have sex now? Is something bothering her?

She might try to dismiss it as "nothing," but if she keeps acting cold/aloof, you need to be persistent on getting that out of her. If you find out that it's because she's not enjoying the "openness" of the relationship anymore, then you have to be honest with her about what you want. If you're intent on not being committed, you have to communicate that (in a relatively kind and considerate way) and that she's allowed to leave the relationship if she feels like she needs something more. You don't want to hurt her, and you don't want to waste her time. On the other hand, if you feel like you're interested in something committed with her, then you can tell her that you'd be willing to try something exclusive for a bit to see how it turns out. If that's actually what she wants, she'll likely be thrilled and immediately start doing tons of nice things for you (including giving you lots of sex) to keep you around. Women are good at this!

Be sure you know exactly what you want, and communicate clearly (and considerately without anger or frustration) what that is. Then be considerate of what she needs, and give her the option to make her own decision.

- Franco

 

[ray_zorse]

Interesting, I personally differ a bit from Franco here, it may well be that it IS the open relationship issue and it also may well be that she's not getting enough "romantic love" from you in addition to all the sex. And if that's the case then talking it through and/or taking steps to correct your relationship game (which is often Dr. Franco's diagnosis and very often a sound diagnosis as far as I can see)... may well solve the problem. But in my opinion, if she starts withholding sex it is a test to see how you will react. And unfortunately if that's the case you failed the test, by doing everything wrong -- flip flopping between being emotionally reactive, supplicating to her ability to control the sex, and logical discussions, all of which allow her to control the frame. Well, failing a test is not the end of the world, it just means she will test you harder next time but you can lose some battles and still win the war. Having said that, it sounds like the damage here is pretty extensive and it is probably not recoverable (to the point where you can have sex anytime you want). This is because of your decisions, i.e. it is your responsibility that things got to here, she was just doing what all women do. So you need to be aware of it for your next relationship and do things right next time. You said you did not want her to feel "punished" for saying "not now" and you have unwittingly hit on the key issue -- she should ABSOLUTELY feel "punished" for doing anything that does not please you -- if you do not make this happen it is not gonna happen by magic. Read Chase's ebook, the chapter "Rewarding and punishing" for more information. Personally I go a lot more hardcore than Chase suggests, I use takeaways that can be pretty harsh, among other strategies, but I always hold my frame once I make a decision. And if I decide to make love to my girlfriend it happens, otherwise she feels a strong consequence that can last for days (or weeks if necessary). Simply put, my behaviour is my decision -- and if she feels she is being unfairly treated then nothing forces her to stay (but in fact my behaviour noticeably spikes her attraction every time she yields to it, which she is forced to do eventually). I must say though, your frame was not too strong in the beginning (living in her house, accepting her financial support) and this has removed a lot of your relationship management tools and surely contributed to the situation you are now in. If she is not complying to you, I would cut ties and move on, since only gets worse from here.
Ray

 

[kristian]

kristian,

In general, open relationships are very volatile. It's rare that a woman's sex drive ever "drops" for a man unless she's wanting him to do something (or not doing something) that he's not doing (or is doing).

In this case, based on the fact that she said she just wants you to "cuddle" her sometimes instead of have sex with her, it sounds to me like she's over the "open" asp.

I told her that I need to learn this skill and I need to have sex with other women from time to time. I am also willing to let her go if she cant accept that fact. And after a talk about me being pushy for sex I told her that I wouldn't make her feel that way. The last days ive only initiated sex when I am very horny, making her turned on as well - as opposed to before when I just made my move because I wanted it and not being turned on at all. Big difference may I say.

I decide to make love to my girlfriend it happens, otherwise she feels a strong consequence that can last for days (or weeks if necessary). Simply put, my behaviour is my decision -- and if she feels she is being unfairly treated then nothing forces her to stay (but in fact my behaviour noticeably spikes her attraction every time she yields to it, which she is forced to do eventually). I must say though, your frame was not too strong in the beginning (living in her house, accepting her financial support) and this has removed a lot of your relationship management tools and surely contributed to the situation you are now in. If she is not complying to you, I would cut ties and move on, since only gets worse from here.
Ray

I see your point there, but I am not the kind of guy who use to "punish" women by acting cold. I hate passive aggressive behavior, so I am more the type of guy that just confronts whats happening instead of pulling away. And this woman is more experienced than me and easily see my game when I try to withdraw because I am butt-hurt.

The best thing - for my own self worth and for her to see me as the cool guy I am - has been to just go out of the house, start approaching even more women and setting up dates. My neediness goes down, I keep myself busy and my increased confidence from newer options makes me act more confident around her making me lead her better when we are together.

As far as now, it has worked for me. She has initiated sex more than me the last days, and I make sure that I give her more pleasure than ever. Is this wrong to do? I feel like if I act like nothing is wrong, but keep a little distance and give her the time of her life in between has been a solution so far.

 

[ray_zorse]

There's never anything wrong with giving yourself some more options. At the same time, you can't just go through life with bad relationship management and just replace your girl every time you FU, this isn't efficient. I guess it's fine if you weren't keen on her, but girls who are high value will require good management.

I highly suggest to read "Franco Seduction", I don't have a link right now, but a lot of his material is about women's tests. What it says essentially is that she needs to know if you are a boss, because she can't afford reproductive mistakes, if she has a child with a guy who isn't a boss she's wasted 2yrs of her reproductive life on a guy who won't protect her and her child. So throughout the relationship, every week or so, she will be forced to test you in some way.

As Drexel says: "The most powerful word you can say to a woman is... NO!". A big part of her testing is putting you in a position where you have to say "no" to her. If you can't or won't say "no" then she figures you aren't the boss you presented yourself as, and attraction diminishes, eventually she looks elsewhere. I should also note that the testing is a subconscious process, women themselves aren't aware of how their attraction system works or why attraction diminishes.

Refusing sex however, is a tricky issue since she's looking to you to say "No! You can't say... no!", it's a kind of double negative. And the problem you will run into with this kind of test, is that in reality you cannot (and should not) force her to have sex with you. So you have to tackle this a bit more intelligently. I think a takeaway is the correct approach, I have some other strategies which I have posted about in the past, but they're a bit advanced so I won't discuss them now.

One of your biggest problems here is FRAME. You're unconsciously accepting the idea that the man is the horndog and the woman is the gatekeeper. So you're trying to, like, reduce your horndogginess around her or divert it elsewhere. It's essential to reverse this frame. Why don't you try a strategy like this. If she refuses sex... act like it's no big deal... then within 48hrs she will probably want sex and start to initiate... act bored and disinterested, say you're busy. Make her wait at least twice as long as she made you wait. This kind of thing helps to reverse the frame... no doubt you will feel sorry for her... you will feel either (1) I'm being an asshole, she wants sex and I want sex and I'm doing this to prove some dumb point, I shouldn't be an asshole... or (2) now is my opportunity to get sex, if I don't get sex now then I might not be able to tomorrow... both of these are WRONG. You must put HER in the supplicant position.

Let me discuss frame a bit more. Butthurt is a frame. What happens is, when you do a takeaway (act bored and disinterested), she will try to FRAME you as being butthurt... "ohh little Kristianny boy is being a sook... poor Kristian... (sarcastic)", or... for example, you try to initiate sex and then pull away when it's clear sex is not happening... she'll say "you only want me for sex... I need more from this relationship blah blah blah"... and what's been happening is you've had quite a WEAK FRAME and you've accepted this viewpoint of HERS. If you have a STRONG FRAME which is... I should not and WILL NOT reward uncooperative behaviour... I know what I'm doing and I know I will prevail eventually... then you can pretty much shrug off all her shit. You just have to look a bit deeper into her behaviour... be aware of women's tests and be aware that you're a fucking boss and she isn't. Know EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT and WHY. If my girl accuses me of only wanting her for sex... my thought is "yes I want sex because she has an attractive body... I also want to have a close relationship with her provided she earns it by her behaviour, which makes me feel warm and good inside... otherwise I'm happy with just sex or nothing at all".

Ray

 

[kristian]

Let me discuss frame a bit more. Butthurt is a frame. What happens is, when you do a takeaway (act bored and disinterested), she will try to FRAME you as being butthurt... "ohh little Kristianny boy is being a sook... poor Kristian... (sarcastic)", or... for example, you try to initiate sex and then pull away when it's clear sex is not happening... she'll say "you only want me for sex... I need more from this relationship blah blah blah"... and what's been happening is you've had quite a WEAK FRAME and you've accepted this viewpoint of HERS. If you have a STRONG FRAME which is... I should not and WILL NOT reward uncooperative behaviour... I know what I'm doing and I know I will prevail eventually... then you can pretty much shrug off all her shit. You just have to look a bit deeper into her behaviour... be aware of women's tests and be aware that you're a fucking boss and she isn't. Know EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT and WHY. If my girl accuses me of only wanting her for sex... my thought is "yes I want sex because she has an attractive body... I also want to have a close relationship with her provided she earns it by her behaviour, which makes me feel warm and good inside... otherwise I'm happy with just sex or nothing at all".

Ray

Thank you for an amazing reply, Ray. I guess the reason I am freaking out is because I got betaised so much in my last relationship (8years) that if something remotely reminds me of what I went through I tend to blow up. Some of the reactions are baggage from past LTRs, wile others has to do with my knowledge about this issue.

So last night she told me she wanted to read some stuff and wasnt it the mood for anything else. I said, "sure", and started reading some stuff myself. After a wile I said I was going to sleep and just layed down. She almost immediately put her computer down, went to the bathroom and layed beside me. Ten minutes later we had sex. This time better than most times as our lust for each other was through the roof. But I guess I shouldn't have sex with her at all for a couple of days if I am going to follow your advice. The thing is that its not easy for a high sex-driven guy like me. I have another girl on the side, but only see her every other week to not complicate things. I will not start anything the next days and I think I will keep myself busy.

I highly suggest to read "Franco Seduction", I don't have a link right now, but a lot of his material is about women's tests.

I read some of his articles and wow, I am now realizing that being in a LTR is almost as hard, if not harder than picking up women. I feel like everything that has to do with women requires a lot of work and experience. Do we have to game our significant others our whole lifes? And how did you react once you realized this?

 

[ray_zorse]

Interesting, well if she said BEFORE that she's busy doing something then I don't really think this counts as rejecting sex... you haven't lost any face since you haven't been horny or tried to get it going... especially if she is actually busy with important stuff. In fact it's very like a conversation I had with my girl last night:

Me: so what are your plans for tomorrow and this week generally?
Her: blahblah (irrelevant stuff)
Me: right, well I am a little behind on work, if you wanted to move in for this week or longer then that would be okay, in fact it would be nice, just that I will be doing a lot of work this week so I won't be able to give you as much attention as I would like
Her: okay no problem (actually she didn't say if she's staying over but IDC really)

Thing is though, if the reason your girl gave was just "I'm not in the mood tonight" and she did it as a pre-emptive strike so to speak, then I would still be a LITTLE bit concerned it could be a test or her losing attraction. So I guess I wouldn't have complied so easily to sex that night after she came to bed or whatever. I might have at least made her wait an hour or two or until the next morning. But as things stand there's no reason to punish her by waiting 2 days as you suggested. Wait until the next time she tries to control the sex and THEN do it. She needs to feel the feedback loop in operation. Mind you, Chase suggests that rewarding and punishing should basically be so subtle that although she SUBCONSCIOUSLY feels the feedback loop in operation she should not be CONSCIOUSLY aware of it. (A similar thing happens when you drink a cup of coffee -- your subconscious mind says I need a stimulant here, whereas your conscious mind says hmm coffee would taste nice right now... however, your subconscious is the driver, as evidenced by the fact you didn't order a decaf last time, or did you? haha). However, I've found since I have a pretty strong frame it doesn't really matter if she realizes she's being punished, she can accuse me of being manipulative or whatever, and I don't really care, as I explained last time. However, your mileage may vary, depends on your style.

Last night I had another conversation with her as we went to bed... she's like

Her: I need a back rub
Me: hmm
Her: my back quite sore... here and here and here

Well I am basically a nice guy... like you... and indeed she is pregnant with my baby so I of course want to care for her and give her back rubs and so forth... BUT, I felt I was in danger of beta sliding since I've been on a trip, just come back, spent 2-3 days with her and really enjoyed it, no tests to speak of since we were both just happy to be back together and enjoying one another's company... I've been quite compliant to her and have not taken any risks like ordering her to do stuff with unjustified compliance and so on... something about this conversation said to me "COMPLIANCE TEST"... she was using justified compliance but she wasn't saying please... also I was very suspicious of her demeanour since she was being quite sweet and feminine, this rings alarm bells... I can generally tell if a test is in the offing from her body language and tone, although some women are probably harder to read, IDK. So...

Me: hmm thanks for the information, very interesting
Her: (even more sweet and feminine) it's really sore just here... (smiling, making eyes at me, rubbing her back)
Me: yes, good to know... I can think of someone else who needs a back rub
Her: ...pleeaase... (AH, THAT'S BETTER)
Me: (points to my back)
Her: ...ohhh... I need one now...
Me: just a quick one... one minute (I'm only doing this to make a point, I don't actually want a back rub)
Her: oohhhh kay... but I get 5 minutes
Me: haha sure, I don't care, whatever, stop trying to bargain and rub my back
Her: (gives me quite a long backrub and I do the same)

I thought this was quite a satisfactory outcome... remembering Chase's article advice "if asked for compliance, ask for equal or greater compliance in return".

When I found out about all this stuff I was delighted, if you read Franco carefully you'll see he says, CORRECTLY, that dealing with women's tests becomes second nature and really isn't a big deal anymore once you understand what's going on. But, I was delighted because suddenly I understood why my marriage failed, I was too compliant to her and failed all her tests, I also made LOTS of other mistakes (too many to list) but I feel this is the main reason why attraction dropped. And when attraction drops it brings A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER PROBLEMS as she tries to make it your fault that it failed.

Ray