FR Girl with Hard Logistics

[NewBeeWinner]

Hey guys,

Went on a simple coffee date yesterday (Tuesday) with a girl I met through cold approach on my campus before the end of the semester. I had made sure she was staying in town over break and not going on a trip or something when I got her number.

We originally planned the date for yesterday and she had texted me a day or so before asking if instead of 7, we could do 4 so she could go watch a movie with a friend at 7. I replied that I could maybe do Thursday night, but no promises - and only if it was a good movie ;P (I should've probably made it a bit harder to reschedule, but whatever - my Thursday is now filled). She told me to let her know, but then I didn't reply for a couple hours (was busy) and she then texted me later that same night that her plans changed - she was now free at 7 and Thursday night as well. So, we met yesterday night.

My progression plan going in was this: meet at a Starbucks about 10 minutes from my place -> move to a nearby park (5 min from my place) and go for a walk after about an hour or so of deep diving/connecting -> go back to my place for a movie to finish the night (and get a lay).

I met her outside the Starbucks around 7:20 (she was a bit late due to life; it was fine with me, as I was also late). Going into the Starbucks, I attempted to set a sexual frame, asking her what kind of trouble she was up to today. I don't remember her exact response, but I was able to set the frame that "trouble can be fun ".

We got our drinks (paid separately) and I had her laughing a bit as I directed her where to sit (by a nice fire - it was cold). We sat across from each other and I went into deep diving asking what she studies / where she works / her ambitions, if that's what she wants to do for forever, if she's gone on any crazy adventures, what her childhood was like, what she does in her free time, etc. I actively listened and connected on points with stories - setting an adventurous/rebel/sexual frame. I also touched her shoulder/upper arm/knee on high points that we connected on and I actually learned quite a lot about her. She also was actively contributing, asking me questions about myself and qualifying or disqualifying herself. I made sure to mirror her likes and keep her talking, minimizing talking about myself out out of what was necessary.

Overall, it was a great conversation. I moved her to a new table after a while (it was getting hot around the fire). After about an hour (so around 8:10ish), she looked at her phone and let me know her parents were strict (she lives with them and they track her location through her phone) and they set a curfew for her to be home at around 8:30. She told me she'd leave at 8:30 and then just talk her way out of being 15 minutes late. Seeing I should move a bit more forward (as the conversation was slowly dying now), I suggested we go to that nearby park. She agreed, but didn't know where it was so I had her follow me in my car.

5 minutes later, we arrived at the park (its now 8:20 ish). As she had 10 minutes left before she had to leave, I suggested we just sit on a big boulder for a bit. She followed my lead and we just watched the stars and talked a bit more. She let me know that she was no longer free Thursday (as she picked up a shift at work), but she had time Saturday to get together - before 5. I told her that'd be fine with me, we'd schedule it later at a time convenient for both of us (and hopefully for a long enough time to get further along). As it got closer, she said she had to go and I walked her back to her car. The conversation died down and she kind of stared at me. Seeing the window, I grabbed her chin and went in for a kiss. She pulled slightly back and said that she minded the kiss, as she had just gotten out of a relationship (she said this kind of at the ground, shyly, with a slight grin - she was a more reserved girl). Seeing I should press a bit, I said "Come on - give it a shot. It'll be fun, you won't die " and then kissed her. She was more forthcoming in kissing back and relaxed a lot, smiling. Then we went our separate ways.

In retrospect, I wanted to progress further, but overall felt happy coming out of the date (would've been way happier with a LR though). I haven't texted her since the date - I'll follow up Friday night to get together Saturday. Her being more reserved and her parents being so strict, I don't have much expectations. I'm wanting to be more subtle in making an interaction sexual - setting the right frames and using touch more. For this first date, it went overall good as an informational date - would've been nice to have moved further. I also am struggling with deciding whether or not to kiss a girl at the point I do in the date and have come to this conclusion: if she's more open and bubbly/fun, I'll kiss earlier. If she's more shy/reserved, I'll wait till we are in a much more intimate place (like my bedroom) before getting into kissing. I think this deals a lot with calibrating to the girl.

What are your guys' thoughts? Suggestions for the second date? My goal would to be lay the second date (maybe if necessary a third date). If I am unable to get a LR by that point, I'll next her. I don't want to move too slow, but I also am dealing with her logistics/possible bs tests (like any girl). All tips/comments appreciated!

Until the next one,

NewBeeWinner

 

[NewBeeWinner]

update: no response to texts after first date. I'm really just slapping my forehead on this one. How stupid of me to believe there'd be a second date.

So instead of being all confused and for a loss, I'm going to redo my dating strategy. From reading the form a bit more (and seeing I'm not the only one having this kind of issue), there's definitely a couple of things I'm not doing right or am missing the mark on. Luckily, people have given great advice to get past this sticking point so I'll start to incorporate some of that advice.

 

[ElderPrice]

I'm assuming you're referring to my thread! I'm grateful that you posted this, as it sort of helps me see another example of a problem it looks like we're both having - dates not ending how we want.

I'm a noob so take my comments with a grain of salt. My two cents:

I don't think I'd quite yet radically change your dating strategy as a result of this one date. You seemed to hit a lot of parts correctly. Your conversation sounds fine, you incorporated touch, you know about qualifying, you moved her around and she followed, and the whole date was an hour - a good time to be at. You also have a good goal/plan in mind for the date.

As for why this date didn't end how you wanted, here are my guesses:

1. That 8:30 curfew thing was weird. I would have assumed it was BS on the date and ignored it, for better or worse. I don't know. If it was me and I had a real curfew like that, I'd mention that very early on, probably when texting to arrange the date, so the other person knew about it in advance. The fact that she waited about an hour to mention it is interesting. Perhaps it was a way of signaling 'This isn't going how I wanted. I want to leave now.' Then maybe she followed you along to the park solely to not directly end the date and make you feel bad. What happened after you started touching her early on? Did she touch you back? Each time? Only the first time? Never?

2. The kiss doesn't sound like it helped. Ideally she would have that look in her eyes like she's dying to kiss you. Doesn't sound like that in this case. I'm going to take a guess there actually wasn't an escalation window to begin with.

My complete guess is you lost her early on and she mentioned the curfew to signal politely that you missed the boat and she wanted to wrap things up. Have you ever tried skipping the coffee shop and just go straight to inviting her over to your place on the 'first date'? I'd try that on the next 5 or so opportunities and see what happens. For all you know, girls might be incredibly excited when they first meet you, then going on a coffee date reduces their initial energy and turns them off.

 

[NewBeeWinner]

I am! haha. I'm actually glad you posted that thread because I am making a lot of similar mistakes~

I agree that most of my process is good, but I feel I can fine tune it (with reference to your thread - i.e. working on being more neutral, only smiling when it counts, not kissing until I have isolated her, etc.) to really kick it past this sticking point. I'm thinking of summarizing the small but important changes I want to make in a new thread to address this sticking point in depth.

In response to your points:

1. I agree. She actually texted me today "Hey, I enjoyed meeting and hanging out with you, but because I just got out of a relationship I don't think I'm ready for anything new :/" (to this, my reply was "woah woah who said anything about a relationship? I'm just looking to grab coffee or go bowling or whatever to get to know you better" - no response yet but she usually is working at this time of day) On the touching point, I don't remember her touching back at all.

2. Yeah doesn't sound like it helped haha I'm definitely wanting to change towards not kissing until we are alone and about to get it on

3. Thinking about it, this might be some of the issue. I've definitely gone on dates recently where I showed up and seen the girl, she was super excited and attentive and then we sit down for coffee and I go into deep diving only to see her lose steam. I'm getting into making coffee myself recently (from grinding the beans to different brewing methods), so I might give this a shot - ask a girl out for coffee then have her meet at my place? How feasible does this plan sound? (I'm also with my parents - so I have to deal with that. But, I've been thinking of just beginning bringing girls back home since my attempts at car escalations have been mixed)

 

[Fuck This]

What if you go on these dates to qualify these girls rather than trying to be attractive? I know it is tough when you are young and want to get to sex as fast as possible but watching guys like this I can practically smell the neediness coming off them.

You talk about deep diving them but not what her answers means to you. Now when I was 18-19 every girl was potentially a target. I repelled more attractive girls than I can count. But when I focused on enjoying myself and determining whether a girl was going to be worth my time, all of a sudden the tables turned. Why was it the fat or ugly girls would pursue me in HS? because I wasn't needy, but I was "nice" (Warm, engaging) . I'd created objections in my mind that kept me from being overbearing towards them and it created attraction.

My first college girlfriend was on a rebound when I was out at the local dance club. For a year before I'd been there trying to pick up women, but failing miserably. They all wanted to dance with me because I was a good dancer, but I never took any girl home from that bar before then. When I resigned myself to just enjoying MYSELF, She fell in my lap and about 5 days later I was balls deep in her. After she and I split I met my Future wife there. Classic case of getting out of the game when I was just getting good.

I've been out of town and spent the evening at a bar while married. That mindset attracted so many women, that I had something ELSE other than getting laid on my mind. I still remember one woman following me out onto the sidewalk and in broken English asking me "Do you have a woman?" Or the bartender that bought me a drink after she got off shift and asked me to walk her to her car. I did not realize at the time but the non-neediness was what attracted these women.

One high school crush ducked all my attempts while in school, but confessed a couple years ago she was about to ask me if we wanted to try to "try and make something work" the night I'd told her about meeting my future wife.

Friends saw the change in my demeanor as well. When I was enjoying myself women were attracted. So in this case with this girl, you screen for her "openness" and you see she is reserved. Dial down the pressure, and think about what you enjoy and whether it is worth even trying to make something happen. Because She might be standing between you and meeting a girl who WILL make it happen.

Sometimes we get tunnel vision when we chase and miss the signals around us. Sit back and observe....

 

[NewBeeWinner]

Fuck this,

Wow. Reading your post became a big "aha" moment for me. The neediness, where it stems from (wanting to get laid right now with any and every girl possible), what having standards actually means (I enjoy these things in a girl - does she have these qualities? if she does, quality her. if not, its cool because there are girls who do). Maybe she will qualify herself to what I want (and chase) or maybe not (it doesn't matter).

Its like a lot of the "bigger" concepts of seduction just clicked for me. Thank you.

I have a date coming up with a girl I've known since middle school I haven't seen in years. We'll see how things go!

 

[ElderPrice]

I am! haha. I'm actually glad you posted that thread because I am making a lot of similar mistakes~

I agree that most of my process is good, but I feel I can fine tune it (with reference to your thread - i.e. working on being more neutral, only smiling when it counts, not kissing until I have isolated her, etc.) to really kick it past this sticking point. I'm thinking of summarizing the small but important changes I want to make in a new thread to address this sticking point in depth.

In response to your points:

1. I agree. She actually texted me today "Hey, I enjoyed meeting and hanging out with you, but because I just got out of a relationship I don't think I'm ready for anything new :/" (to this, my reply was "woah woah who said anything about a relationship? I'm just looking to grab coffee or go bowling or whatever to get to know you better" - no response yet but she usually is working at this time of day) On the touching point, I don't remember her touching back at all.

2. Yeah doesn't sound like it helped haha I'm definitely wanting to change towards not kissing until we are alone and about to get it on

3. Thinking about it, this might be some of the issue. I've definitely gone on dates recently where I showed up and seen the girl, she was super excited and attentive and then we sit down for coffee and I go into deep diving only to see her lose steam. I'm getting into making coffee myself recently (from grinding the beans to different brewing methods), so I might give this a shot - ask a girl out for coffee then have her meet at my place? How feasible does this plan sound? (I'm also with my parents - so I have to deal with that. But, I've been thinking of just beginning bringing girls back home since my attempts at car escalations have been mixed)

I can't decide how much you and I should be worrying about seemingly small details like the ones we're discussing in our threads. It would be great if an expert can answer the following, because I've been wondering about it recently: Is it actually possible that something as seemingly small as smiling too much can be the difference maker from 0% date success to consistent first date sex? These small details sound like the type of thing that advanced guys would tinker with to boost their success rate by 5 percentage points, not 50 percentage points...

Anyway, as for your responses:
1. She's not interested. Oh well. It was respectful of her to provide a response so that's helpful. A good learning experience!
2. Yeah after my experience as well I'm just not even going to consider kissing unless I get those "kiss me" eyes. Also, the girl not touching back is a big sign not to continue trying to escalate. Moving forward, my plan is if I'm not getting touches back even after a few attempts, I'm ending the date. If she's not comfortable to touch my forearm, she's not going to be comfortable doing other things, and spending an extra hour with her isn't going to change anything.
3. Yeah you just never know until you try and get the reference points. Sounds fine to me. I'd just toss on as much window dressing as possible so it really reads like you want to show her xyz. So maybe something like "I actually just bought a new special coffee maker. My organic beans from Spain arrived yesterday. How about instead of spending another $4 at Starbucks, I'll make some TRUE quality coffee (on the house!) then we can head to the park afterward, it's only like 5 minutes away."

Also, as soon as I'm able to invite girls home, I'm going to try experimenting at inviting them at night vs. during the day. I think Chase talks about this in one of his 'taking her home' articles. Basically if you invite a girl over at 8pm at night, she knows for sure what you're proposing. If instead you invite her over at 2pm to watch a movie, the odds of her declining should be lower.

 

[Fuck This]

A woman knows in the first 30 seconds to 2 minutes if she is going to sleep with you.

Then it just becomes a matter of her overcoming her own objections, and preconceived notions about what is "right". If you are observant, you can tell what obstacles are there and deal with those. Then you just determine if the "juice is worth the squeeze". To continue on this metaphor, spend time finding where the trees grow,and what a ripe fruit looks like.