Girlfriend is gradually becoming uncomfortable with sex

[Carpe-DM]

hey guys. I got divorced a few years back. I have solid fundamentals and quickly found myself spinning many plates until one blew them away about 20 months ago. She looks like Jennifer Garner but better, is funny, adventurous, kind, successful and pays her own way for everything, never brings up marriage- just a great overall relationship

We had sex on the first date and it was awesome! I've never seen a girl who orgasms vaginally so easily- jackhammer away and she cums, so that really works for me! The only problem was her constantly saying "wait" without wanting me to wait

She seemed adventurous at first...even showed interest in things like anal, but as the relationship has progressed she wants to do less and less in bed. The first thing off limits was fingering of all things. I can't even slid my finger down her slit without getting chastised! She says its "too pokey" or "too clinical". We'll, playing with pussy is the main thing that gets me hard. Later I found out her first sexual experience was a rape by three guys when she was 18, leading to an abortion and her taking a bottle of pills. She says its a reflex like "touching a hot stove". Things just get worse and worse though. I used to be really good at eating pussy, but now when I go down on her she puts her hand on her forehead like she's stressed out, and I can barely move my tongue without her forcing my forehead back....this has recently advanced to having to keep my stationary tongue soft! We're reduced to about 5 positions now. We still have sex about 5 days per week, but now any time except ovulation I'm greeted with grunts of discomfort and "ouch". She's even uncomfortable with me sexually caressing or kissing her body, even though she LOVES to be touched any other time. She's never been comfortable

Basically, this girl is a ball of tension during sex. I heard about the rape about 4-5 months in when she demanded exclusivity, but I thought things would gradually become better instead of worse. Half the time I feel depressed and bad after sex now. About 2/3 of the women I've been with have told me I'm the best lover they've ever had, but I'm losing my skills because this girl seems to hate the same things most love. She understands I have a very positive view of female sexuality and likes that about me, but is just so uncomfortable. Even uncomfortable watching porn with me.

I'm at a loss. In every other way this woman is a unicorn. If things were the same as on day one I'd be fine. I'd be thrilled if we were slowly pushing our boundaries together as we were the first few months. Things are going the opposite direction though. I'm not even sure how to confront her about it without making things even worse. I'm getting frustrated as hell, and I'm considering just getting some action on the side to scratch that itch. I'm not afraid to next her exactly, but I would be disappointed because I've never encountered a girl with her other combination of qualities who I get along so well with. I do miss spinning plates, but I'd like to have an attempt of fixing this girl sexually before nexting or cheating on her

Any ideas on how to address this issue without just making her MORE tense and uncomfortable? I'm in a bit of a pickle here.

 

[Drck]

"We had sex on the first date and it was awesome! I've never seen a girl who orgasms vaginally so easily ... She seemed adventurous at first... even showed interest in things like anal, but as the relationship has progressed she wants to do less and less in bed. ... Things just get worse and worse though. ... now any time except ovulation I'm greeted with grunts of discomfort and "ouch" ... this girl is a ball of tension during sex. ... I'm losing my skills because this girl seems to hate the same things most love... I'm not even sure how to confront her about it without making things even worse. I'm getting frustrated as hell"


Ok, I'm going to leave out all the "sorry to hear that she was raped" because it may be true, but at the same time it may not... Who knows? IMO if she was raped it would be the other way, she would have hard time to sleep with you at first, but as the relationship moves forward she would be more and more comofrtable... Just my opinion....

But what's more important is, what are you getting from this relationship? It started great, sex on first date, but it is getting progressively worse... She obviously loved the sex at first but now she is avoiding it more and more, as she is not really keen about having sex with you...

IMO you won't fix it, but if you want to try perhaps the best is to talk to her and discuss it. You should set up a strong boundaries since having a lot of sex is what you really want, and you are getting really frustrated because you can't have it.

Another way to look at it is through Red Pill: She knows you love sex, she knows you are a great guy and a keeper (were already married). She hooked you up by having a great sex with you, and now she is trying to domesticate you by slowly and systematically withdrawing what you love; she is basically trying to manipulate you to ball-less obediant provider who is dependent on having sex with her... The more you want sex with this girl and the more you are emotionally attached to her, the more you are dependent on her... You do as I say - and we'll have sex. You won't do as I say: No sex for you boy...

So, IMO if you won't setup strong boundaries (which basically means you have to be willing to walk away from this girl) she will just continue: she is tired, she is hurt, she doesn't feel good, she was raped and has constant flashbacks and so on... Poor girl, she will make you feel bad for your desire to have sex - except she didn't hesitate to fuck your brains off the first couple of weeks...

But again, who really knows? As always, I would just keep it simple: If she really loves you she will do anything to keep you, including having sex as much as you want...


Anyway, hope my words are not too harsh, but IMO nothing new under the sun, the same crap over and over... Curious what other guys have to say though...

 

[Carpe-DM]

Thanks for the reply. My situation is a little different though; she's not withholding sex...she's just increasingly uncomfortable during sex. She's also not treating me like a provider. She makes more money than most men I know, we each own our own house and, if anything, this relationship has cost me less than $0 over two years.

She can keep up with me physically and mentally, is adventurous (took up scuba to go on a trip with me, skydives, into mountain biking and motorcycles), has an MBA, and is one of the funniest women I've ever met. Not to mention drop dead gorgeous. For not trying to use me for any purpose but sex and companionship for this long, this might be a genuine NAWALT, albeit one with a serious flaw She's never told anyone about the abortion, and only a couple other people know about the rape and the suicide attempt. This was 14 years ago, for perspective.

I just had a discussion with a friend (former FWB) who's 80% lesbian and not into exclusive relationships, so she's a good reference. She suggested perhaps this girl thinks I see her differently after revealing the gang rape/abortion/suicide attempt. I'm guessing there's more there, too, like a creepy family member which leads to her reflexive tension when touched sexually.

I'd miss this girl if I broke up with her, but I absolutely will if I can't turn this around. Playing the field and juggling multiple women again is looking increasingly appealing

 

[Drck]

It's difficult, not sure what to tell you. If you love her and want to keep her, you (IMO) won't get much sex because she doesn't like it that much. It might be the PTSD from rape, or it might be other issues (e.g. You may not be as good as you believe). So you might want to find some compromise in order to keep some power in the relationship.

Her power is her pussy (sex) and ability to make you fall for her. That feeling of love and sweetness, feeling sorry for her and so on. Once you fall for her you will do everything to keep the girl because you are attached to her emotionally. Which is basically what she wants, perhaps just subconsciously. That's what's make the guy valuable as a provider to them, the guy is allowed to provide by feeling love - but he won't get much pussy, at least not after some time... The more you are attached to her though, the more you are compliant to her and feel for her - the lesser value you have in her eyes, and the easier she could (eventually) dump you...

Your power is emotional dis-attachment, emotional distance, ability to walk away from her... They hate it and they love it, they know they can't tie you down with their sweetness and pussy. These alpha-like traits and independence is what makes the guy so attractive and 'sexually valuable' to them, they know he gets lots of pussy, and if not he walks away... They know they can't really dump this guys because he is not attached at first place. He would walk away from that girl with a laugh. It's actually quite challenging to them because they have to work hard to keep such guy around, and girls LOVE challenge. That's also the reason why they love guys who treat them like a crap - while they don't really care much about guys who fall for them, guys who are too-feely and too-touchy...

In general, all the seduction stuff is aimed to remove yourself from the provider-ship style of thinking and become more pussy-independent thinker, more dominant alpha-like guy who has lots of choices...

Many guys who fall for a girl are making lots of excuses for her behavior, they justify her behavior, they make it rational for themselves, they always find lots of reasons why to be with her - it's all great logic, except they are not getting much of what THEY want... Be careful, I believe that girls know all of this, they are very smart as far as relationships. She already knows you were a provider for X years, she knows you were already domesticated. Provider-ship is not only money, sometimes it might be just the comfort to be around somebody who is alike, without all the desire to have sex with that person... Something like a great and reliable friend, but not really a sexy lover...

Anyway, if you want to work on it you might want to make sure that she is more relaxed during sex, see if you can find out how how to make her feel more sexy and excited about it. Maybe you want to try sometimes more romantic sex, and other time more rougher sex, see what she likes. Sometimes doing less and expressing less feelings is better than doing/feeling more. I would also discuss her PTSD, perhaps address it through therapists...

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey dude I went through something pretty similar with my marriage and what it turned out to be was basically that she was a huge faker, she never really enjoyed sex with me except as a means of control, and that's the read I'm getting here too. Before you dismiss this as ridiculous, bear in mind that it was not until a whole year after separation, when her personality disorder became manifested in other ways, and I had done extensive research into bullying and abusive relationships, that I actually put it all together.

I also had another gf, not the same one, who basically played the "rape card" in exactly the manner you described, also as a means of control. My advice? Ditch this girl like a hot potato and get out fast. You've already revealed far too much of your inner state and that's meat and potatoes to a manipulator. She may be legit, but you are getting SFA out of this relationship anyway, so it's not worth the risk of continuing. For my money, as soon as you decide to break free, her behaviour will become increasingly dramatic.

I would recommend that you secretly remove any important possessions etc, maybe take some audio recordings of your interactions using your phone (voice recorder app), especially of you having sex and her consenting (no matter how much she might grumble etc), and then within a week, change your mobile number and email address, and do a runner to a different city without telling her you're leaving, and never have any contact with her ever again. Just my advice. I'm deadly serious. Don't say you weren't warned.

Ray

 

[Carpe-DM]

Drck- if she withholds sex for an extended period, I'm done. It's not because I'm not as good as I believe; it's because she severely limits what's on the menu. I mean, I can't exactly show her my squirting orgasm skills if I can't finger her. I make her let me do that now and then. She let herself go initially, but then one day read it was urine and then it was over. On the occasion we do do it, she forces my hands out before it gets to that point. I said I don't care what it is so long as it's an intense orgasm and just put a towel down.

What exactly do you mean by "...some compromise to keep power in the relationship"? What compromise?

She's definitely not looking for sympathy- she was very reluctant to open up about those things, only mentioning the abortion and suicide attempt about a year and a half in. I've tried to remain much less emotional and show less emotional attachment than I have in the past- learned that one the hard way, although I've had exactly two slip-ups, both times when she caught me flirting online with a woman from my past (coincidentally, both times we had been drinking at a party; makes it a bit tougher to keep the emotions locked down). She seems insecure; not only does she KNOW I can get pussy with little effort (I banged her on the first date after all, and we run into a couple girls I've fucked in the past fairly regularly), she assumes I DO whenever one of us is out of town, or even accept an attractive female facebook friend. If I bump into a female friend who's HB6 or above, she just assumes I've fucked her. I'm thinking I might as well start getting some one the side since I'm often treated as though I do anyway (although this has gotten better). It'd make emotional detachment a bit easier, too.

I've only increased in SMV since I've known her, making about 40% more money in two years and putting on over 10 pounds of muscle. I'm sure some of my flirting and sexual skills have atrophied due to lack of use though.

Anyway, if you want to work on it you might want to make sure that she is more relaxed during sex, see if you can find out how how to make her feel more sexy and excited about it

Any suggestions on that?

Ray_zorse: any suggestions on how to spot a faker? Regarding "rape card"...I don't think that's the case. I've dated women like this. This girl mentioned has mentioned it twice. She says she thinks she might've been drugged, or might've just been really drunk, which is why she didn't press charges, because she thought there was a chance she might've been responsible. Pretty grown up. This was a long time ago, when she was 18. She's 33 now.

Increasingly dramatic after I leave? How so? Do you think she'll beg for me to come back? This has actually been the lowest-drama, most game-free relationship I've ever had, except for the facebook stalking. Hell...perhaps she needs some drama.

Why do you suggest voice recordings? I already have videos of us fucking early on. They're hotter than most amateur porn I watch, which is how I'm reminded how things have slid. She's not the stalker type...in facet, exactly the opposite.



This is us, BTW. Where would you put us on the SMV scale? [Pictures have been removed.]

 

[Drck]

I'm not really sure what you want to hear...? That she is different than other girls, special, that you can change her by some magic?

The described girl's behaviors are based on experiences. When you experience it yourself you may think that it is unique, but then when you compare it to other guy's experiences you'll realize that lots of those behaviors are the same. Ray gave you real life example, I bet if you discuss it with guys in your environment you will find more examples just like that. Same crap everywhere....

When a guy is in love, or at least somehow emotionally hooked to that girl, it is quite difficult for him to understand things like emotional dis-attachment, Abundance Mentality, being a Hero-Savior, being more leading and independent and so on. All he sees is this cute, sweet and innocent girl right in front of him with whom he's having a great time. How could it be? All he needs to do is modify his behavior here and there, adjust his thinking slightly, perhaps do something extra - and she is happy again, he is in great relationship again.... All he needs to do is his best, and he is already doing his best because she makes him feel so good about it...

He's the lucky one to have such girl, at least until he realizes some changes. Those are, for example, less and less sex. He is doing more and more in the household while she does shit. He feels bad and responsible if she is not in a good mood, he thinks that it is his fault. He is forced to go to a therapist, where - most likely - he will be explained that he is the source of her depression and misery; he learns that he is too insensitive, he learns that everything wrong with that relationship is mostly his fault. He learns that he is a bad communicator, too selfish, and that he needs to work on their relationship. He learns about sharing. So he changes more of his behavior to make her more happy.

And she is happy, again. Except one day he wakes up, and maybe she dumps him. On the spot. He doesn't even have a clue why...

He gets divorce papers, now he's got to move out of his house that he paid for, and all of his family and friends now know that he is a bad person, exactly as described by his sweet girl. How could it be? Not only that, now he's got to pay alimony and child support, he became a slave, and the whole system agrees with this sweet and innocent girl... He did all his best for so many years, but he ended up like a villain anyway...

But he doesn't see it this way, in his mind he is doing the right thing, in his mind he is still responsible for happiness of this sweet and innocent girl, and he understands that she's got another guy who is fucking the girl he still love in his house, and who's playing a daddy to his kids...

Ok, little bit dramatic for the effect but look around, unfortunately this is not that uncommon at all...

 

[ray_zorse]

Mate I am sorry to have to say this but a lot of what you describe is raising huge red flags for me, specifically the stuff about how she so cutely and reluctantly "allowed" you to draw the story of the rape out of you, and the other stuff like her enthusiasm for the sex that you think "couldn't" be faked, her genuineness and apparent lack of drama overall, coupled with her thrill seeking behaviour, and most particularly how your sexual privileges were granted with a massive bang and huge show of investment and involvement yet are now being gradually and coldly withdrawn and replaced with verbal abuse (I use this term advisedly) that is designed to gradually undermine your confidence in your skills and behaviour and whittle away at your self worth, making you dependent on the occasional rewards she gives you when she momentarily reverses it.

Honestly, no real girl is that extreme, so "extremely perfect annd involved and drama-free" in the netting-you, best-behavuour stage (and the fact this has gone on for so long is testament to the strength of your frame, and the challenge she has faced in getting you to here, however unless you are a psychopath you are not impervious), nor so "extremely vulnerable and reluctant" in pulling you in to her "poor me" story and white-knight role, nor so "extremely cold yet calibrated" in withdrawing your privileges. Unless she has an agenda. Anyway, that's my read. The fact you're distressed, puzzled, speaking in superlatives, posting pictures...... all fits.

Read "The verbally abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans and possibly her other book "Controlling people". And "Emotional Vampires" by Dr. Alfred J. Bernstein. These would have been very helpful to me when I was in your situation. About the audio recordings they need to be recent, just ordinary interactions will be fine, but sex is preferable as she may well accuse you of rape, emotional abuse, etc.

My advice stands. Take action immediately. There's no downside to doing so. And if I'm correct, you must protect yourself. Believe me, I know. I lost years of my life in such a situation, which I don't regret as it was due to my own stupidity, but what I couldn't have accounted for was the aftermath, the years of being dragged through every known court with her manipulating authority figures and the wholesystem that protects women against violence, abuse etc... long appeals process, etc, the enormous amount of work and time down the plughole on legal matters, the health related leave I had to take, the $50,000 or so... get out now.

Ray

 

[Carpe-DM]

Drck: What I want to hear are suggestions on getting her more relaxed and turned on. I've been head over heels before and this is not that- I'm much more detached and outcome independent. I should lead more though. You're Sapir on about what women and counseled say they want and what they actually want. I'm still learning to internalize this though. Ideas?Thanks for the suggestion. Anything else...like ways to lay down the law without making her even more tense?

Ray: Thanks for the warning, but I'm 0% concerned about a rape allegation; she only told a couple people about the actual rape, and even second guessed her own roll in it. I'm not sure what you're getting at in the rest of your post as your quoting a lot of things that are the exact opposite of what I said, or didn't even mention at all. For instance, I asked "how do I spot a faker?", and you read it as "she 'couldn't' be faking". Sounds like you've been burned pretty hard.

 

[NarrowJ]

Carpe,

I hope that you'll read what I am about to write with an open mind.

Seems like you asked for advice, some people told you some things you didn't want to hear, and now you are forging ahead on the path you were already on before getting said advice.

This is a concern for me:

Ray: Thanks for the warning, but I'm 0% concerned about a rape allegation

Pretty much everyone is 0% concerned about rape allegations before they happen, especially if they don't view what they are doing as "rapey" or harmful in any way. However, the line you are currently toe-ing is a thin one. You're trying to get her to open up and do things in bed that she's not comfortable doing. When does this become "rape" or "assault"? When does she start discussing your attempts to get her to do freakier things in bed start to get discussed by her to her women friends, i.e., "Carpe wanted to perform [insert sexual act] on me and I don't like it, but he kept trying to get me to do it", and then her female friend convinces her that she's being abused somehow. That's how a lot of rape allegations come about these days, is people simply get talked into the belief that they've had it happen to them, when in fact it's just plain old seduction and nothing harmful or forced on her.

I'm not saying you'll be dealing with a full-on rape accusation, but there's going to be problems if you continue to try to get her to do things she doesn't want to do with you.

Looking at what Drck wrote here:

Ok, I'm going to leave out all the "sorry to hear that she was raped" because it may be true, but at the same time it may not... Who knows?

^^ The rape itself is a huge red flag. Now, statistics show that about 15% of women will be raped at some point in their lifetime, so many women have to live with this. Some probably are able to shelve it and go on and live normal lifestyles, others not so much. If I read correctly, you'd used the term "gang rape", is that correct? If the rape was particularly violent, then there's definitely a good reason for her to want to suppress this event (and thus, not telling people about it).

As Drck says above, "it may be true, but at the same time it may not... Who knows?", all you have is her word. So look at it this way: She's either (1) a broken woman due to the violent rape or (2) a manipulator.

You are obviously full-on 100% of the belief that she is not lying about it (even though she could be, but let's assume she's not) so what you are doing is trying to "fix" a woman who's been "broken" by what is a very traumatizing event from her past. As long as you're aware of the fact that you nor anyone here are licensed psychologists or psychiatrists, then you know that trying to help her through these issues is not only unlikely that you'll ever succeed in doing so, but quite possible that you make it even worse in your attempts to reverse her behavior.

The behavior does seem manipulative, and it is (whether it is intentional or not, you've been conditioned to putting a whole bunch of effort into figuring out what her issues are and how to correct them).

My friend, my advice would be to put the relationship on hold immediately before things get really messy, and tell her to get some professional help.


J.J.

 

[Carpe-DM]

Carpe,

Assuming that the rape is real and this reversal in sexual exploration is a by product of ptsd, ther are some sound reasons that she may have changed. She may not being as manipulative as she is being painted on this thread, however, you should be aware that she is probably throwing a lot of red flags for big trouble down the line and needing professional help.

What I believe you are running into is much simpler than other explanations here. PTSD from rape is often characterized by high promiscuity following the event as an attempt at numbing the emotional effects of the personal violation. Initially she may have met you and had no qualms with crazy sex because she had spent years maybe attempting to separate emotions from sex and wanted to impress you.

As time went on and her emotions toward you developed she has more trouble dissociating sex from her emotions. The emotions you bring out in her as a powerful man cannot be seperated from her sexual relationship with you. Therefore she can no longer mentally dissociate sex and the emotional trauma of her rape, whether the rape is perceived or not, the emotional trauma will play the same way.

Basically, her growing emotions for you are making her face her denied emotions toward the rape and sex and is therefore making her highly uncomfortable as time goes on because she can no longer utilize her preferred coping strategy. Now she is sensitive to sex because her mind can't resolve her caring about you with her need to emotionally seperate herself from her sex life.

Hope that makes sense. I typed this on my phone and I hope I did the topic a bit of justice. I think the advice remains the same, these are terrible red flags for growing problems in your relationship, and perhaps the precursor for some of the other things mentioned here. And yes Ray is right, losing you may trigger extreme behavior from her.

Radeng

Actually, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Any ideas or suggestions on what to do about it?

LOL- Oh crap...I was just going to leave the pics up for a couple of days and then delete them, but it looks like that's impossible. If a mod reads this, can you delete the pics?

 

[ray_zorse]

I should have made it clear that the references I gave ("The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and others) were in response to your question "How do I spot a faker".

I had a quick flip through, I was hoping there might be something about disparaging one's partner sexually, I couldn't find anything, but there was something about affection:

AFFECTION AND REJECTION

The feeling of affection calls forth the awareness of an inclination to share the desirable state. The spirit is nourished.

The feeling of rejection calls forth the awareness of having been refused. The spirit is diminished.

One of the ways the partner may express her affection and love is through sharing her joys and pleasures with her mate. In an abusive relationship, these overtures rarely succeed. In fact, the abuser may actually be angered when his partner thinks he would be pleased. Consequently, partners of verbal abusers are often left with a feeling of having said something that has been misunderstood or of having done something that is unacceptable or not worthwhile.

The abuser’s indifference, criticism, disregard, and so forth are all felt as a kind of rejection by the partner--as if she, on each one of these occasions, just doesn't meet his standards. This rejection implies to the partner that she is somehow unacceptable or unworthy.

Intermittent rejection breeds confusion and uncertainty. When the partner recognizes her mate's rejection, she realizes that her joy and vitality cannot be shared with someone who would diminish it.

I also looked up covert verbal abuse, it occurred in quite a long passage which I think would be helpful for you to glance through. I bolded the reference to covert abuse.

CHAPTER VIII

Characteristics and Categories of Verbal Abuse

Our sense of power is more vivid when we break a man's spirit than when we win his heart.
-- Eric Hoffer


Verbal abuse: Words that attack or injure, that cause one to believe the false, or that speak falsely of one.

Verbal abuse constitutes psychological violence.

THE GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS OF VERBAL ABUSE

1. Verbal abuse is hurtful. It is especially hurtful when it is denied. When the partner's perception of the abuse is discounted and there is no validation of her reality, part of her hurt is her confusion.

2. Verbal abuse attacks the nature and abilities of the partner. The partner may begin to believe that there is something wrong with her or that her abilities are her failings. As Bella noted:

I heard so often that I was a lousy driver, I really began to think I had a problem driving. I think I was brainwashed. Do you know what? I've been driving twenty-seven years without an accident or a ticket.

3. Verbal abuse (angry outbursts and name—calling), may be overt or covert (very, very subtle, like brainwashing). Overt verbal abuse is usually blaming and accusatory, and consequently confusing to the partner. Covert verbal abuse, which is hidden aggression, is even more confusing to the partner. Its aim is to control her without her knowing it.

4. Verbally abusive disparagement may be voiced in an extremely sincere and concerned way. Ellen provides an example:

When he quietly and thoughtfully said, "The real reason we've never been able to discuss a book is that there are common phrases you don’t comprehend the meaning of but that the average American understands," I thought, "That must be why we have so much trouble in our communication." I felt tremendous pain and despair; after all, then all my pain was my fault.

5. Verbal abuse is manipulative and controlling. Usually the partner does not know that she is being manipulated and controlled. She may notice, however, that she may be living her life quite differently than she's planned, or certainly less happily.

6. Verbal abuse is insidious. Verbal abuse disregards, disrespects or devalues the partner in such a way that:

a. Her self-esteem gradually diminishes, usually without her realizing it.

b. She loses self-confidence without realizing it.

c. She may consciously or unconsciously try to change her behavior so as not to upset the abuser, so she won't be hurt anymore.

d. She may be subtly brainwashed without realizing it.

As Dora advised:

You'll never be able to tell if you're verbally abused by what your friends see and tell you, nor by what your husband says about himself and the relationship. Please emphasize in your book how very vague and subtle and insidious it is. You get conditioned to it and confused by it, and then you don't know what's going on.

7. Verbal abuse is unpredictable. Unpredictability is one of the most significant characteristics of verbal abuse. The partner, as discussed earlier, is stunned, shocked, thrown off balance by her mate's sarcasm, angry jab, put-down, or hurtful comment. No matter how intelligent, discerning, or thoughtful she is, she never really expects it, nor, for the most part, can she understand why the upsetting incidents occur or how to prevent them.

8. Verbal abuse is the issue (the problem) in the relationship. When a couple is having a real argument about a real issue, like how to discipline their children or how much time to spend apart or together, both parties may feel angry but they can say, "This is what I'm feeling angry about." or "This is what I want," and eventually, if there is goodwill on both their parts, the issue is resolved. In a verbally abusive relationship there is no specific conflict. The issue is the abuse and this issue is not resolved. Another way to say this is that there is no closure.

9. Verbal abuse expresses a double message. There is an incongruence between the way the abuser speaks and his real feelings. For may sound example, he very sincere and honest while he is telling his partner what is wrong with her, or he may say "I’m not mad" while sounding very angry, or he may, for example, invite her out to dinner and then during dinner maintain an attitude of aloof, cold indifference. Partners say:

"He tells me he loves me, and he tells me he can say anything he wants."

"He says he's accepting of everyone but he criticizes me and won't accept my views or feelings."

"He says he's relaxed and easygoing but he's angry and irritable every day."

"He says he's supportive of me, but I feel isolated and lonely with him."

10. Verbal abuse usually escalates, increasing in intensity, frequency, and variety. For example, early in the relationship, the verbal abuser may abuse his partner with put-downs disguised as jokes and with withholding; gradually, other forms of verbal abuse are added (These forms are described below as the categories of verbal abuse.)

Hope that helps. Although I think a more appropriate reference in your case might be the "Emotional Vampires" book -- there's a fair bit about thrill-seeking behaviour and its relationship to the antisocial personality type (IIRC). There's also a very thought provoking passage that says effectively "There is essentially no way to spot a faker by their behaviour. Through conditioning since childhood, they have overlearned the manipulative behaviour of presenting themselves to you as exactly what you wish them to be. However, an effective way to spot a faker is to look at your own behaviour in regards to them." The above excerpts would hint at some of the things to look for. Anyway, you'll have to do your own research, I can't do it for you. I can however emphasize how enormously valuable it is to research your concerns thoroughly.

There was also an article I read online a long time ago which described your situation pretty closely, I could not find it again, but I think it was on the following site. If I were you I'd have a good browse of all the articles there. It's by Dr. Tara Palmatier who is pretty knowledgeable on crazy female partners. http://shrink4men.com/index/

Ray

Note: The book from which the above excerpts are taken, is written in quite a sexist way that assumes the abuser is male. I took issue with this and wrote to the author about it. She replied that male verbal abusers outnumber female verbal abusers by over 100 to 1, but the female verbal abusers are typically a lot more dangerous.

 

[Drck]

"What I want to hear are suggestions on getting her more relaxed and turned on"

That's so difficult because we simply don't know much about the girl and circumstances she was in when the rape happened.

For example, just imaginary situation: She was waiting for her boyfriend, she was a romantic environment with candle, flowers and so on, and then she was raped. So X years after you think you might do good to have romantic dinner with her, you want to surprise her at your place. You lighten up a candle, put some flowers on the table... She opens the door - and she freaks out. The innocent romantic situation reminded her of that rape, the candle and flowers became triggers that triggered her nightmare...

There could be many triggers, words, songs, the way you touch, kiss... As NarrowJ pointed out, assuming that she was raped she might be psychologically damaged, broken woman... You would be getting into a role of a therapist - but most likely, unfortunately not a role of a lover... The general consensus here is to avoid such woman, but I understand your concern, she is a human being and you like her a lot...

The word rape itself has a wide meaning. One girl is fully clothed, goes home from her job, she is kidnapped and raped. Ok, that's a clear crime. Another girl parties in the middle of the night, half naked, flirts with every guy she sees, makes sexual advances to half of them, have several drinks - and then have sex with 3 guys. She wakes up second day and because she thinks other girls will call her a slut, she reports rape. Semen of three guys is collected, they go to jail. What now? Are these three guys criminals as well, do they deserve jail as well? Is she really a victim? IMO that's ridiculous, but I'm not a judge. All you see the next day is feminists on the street with signs, hating and crucifying every guy for his natural desire to sleep with sexy girl...

There are girls that have been raped multiple times. How is it possible? It is simply the lifestyle and environment they live in. Sometimes it is like waving a big red flag in front of a bull, and pretending that it is so difficult to understanding what is he getting so excited about...

There might be different reactions to it as well, normal logic says that she will avoid sex with men; There are cases, however, that the woman was raped and since that she is walking on the street and openly asking men for sex. She has to actually learn not to do that. (Great point radeng, it makes sense)

So we know nothing about it, we can't really solve it, nor should we. That's a work for therapists and professionals that work with her directly. From our stand point of view, we are just giving you advice - BEWARE...

If you want to dig into it and stay with her, I would probably discuss it with her in more details, talk about what she likes or dislikes, what can you do to get your satisfaction, and if it doesn't work try to suggest therapist...

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Carpe-DM,

First off, I laughed my ass off at this

She looks like Jennifer Garner but better, is funny, adventurous, kind, successful and pays her own way for everything, never brings up marriage- just a great overall relationship

The line "but better" was awesome. As if you met Jennifer Garner, thought she was "meh" then met this girl and went, "bitch you so much better than that other ho you look like!" Anyways..


As NJ pointed out, you really have to watch out for women who claimed to have been raped. My main three questions are:

1. How casual did she point this out to you?

2. What circumstance did she reveal this to you?

3. Did she report it to the police?

If she was casual about being raped by three men and just kind of made it side-conversation, she's full of shit, most likely.

If she only brought it up when she mentioned exclusivity with you, then she's extra full of shit and used it to guilt trip you into exclusivity.

If she didn't report it to the police, she's also full of shit.

In any of these cases, break up with her VERY soon and get out of there before you get caught in a fake rape accusation. Just trust me on this one. I've known a lot of men who have been falsely accused in college and the liberal way that women throw it around these days is sickening and can devastate lives. But before you do break up with her, make sure you save lots of text messages that show her willingly coming over, talking about sex, etc, just in case she does falsely accuse you.

My theory is that she got gangbanged when she was 18, loved it, but then afterwards crafted a raped story so that she doesn't seem like a slut. There's many reasons why women do this, some understandable and some truly asinine and cruel. I'm gonna be honest homie, she probably loved getting rammed by a bunch of dudes and if she's having any sort of hesitation about any parts of sex, it's probably because you've pedastled her and she's losing attraction.

My main evidence is this

"In every other way this woman is a unicorn" - yeah, that's like saying "I love everything about this girl. She's smart, funny, and so creative! Only thing is...I've never even kissed her..."

Get out of this now. If something seems just slightly troublesome to you, but when you tell others about it, they collectively go "uhhh, wait second homie, something isn't right," then that means you're trapped in a spell and aren't seeing the spike-trap waiting for you just feet away.

- Hector

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey mate I found that article I was looking for (I spent the weekend with kids, I quickly OCR'd those pages to you earlier, while kids were watching TV and before any fights broke out, but I couldn't spend time on it). Now they're at mum's, and I am taking a break in the office and doing some idle browsing. In my opinion this article is required reading for you. You're at approximately step 8, which is why you sought help. http://shrink4men.com/2013/05/29/abused-men-how-covert-abuse-begins-part-one/
Ray

 

[Drck]

Ray, wow, that's trully amazing WOW article, I suspected that lots of this is going on (see Red Pill) but this makes it crystal clear. Perhaps some women do it unconsciously, but it rather seems that many are pre-planning it, exactly as described.

Sorry to say, but I really believe that in general women are FAR ahead of guys. Their games is much more elaborated and sophisticated than ours. She plays chess with the guy(s) and she wins - while the guy doesn't even have a clue he's a part of her game. I'm not talking about women being 2-3 years ahead of us, I am talking about 100 years, if not more... It is as if women understand us perfectly, while we have no clue about what's going on in their minds....

This is truly a GOLD article, it allows us to learn a lot and catch a lot of women's BS...


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Made my own notes - by re-writing most of it, LOL, so I'll just paste it for the heck of it:

A guide for women, How to manipulate a guy in a couple of simple steps:

* Keep your mask on at All Times: When you first meet him, tell him what a great guy he is; Admire his accomplishments. Show him that you are a responsible, rational, hard-working adult woman.

* Once you secure a relationship with him, drag your ex-boyfriend through the mud. Tell your new BF all the horrible things your ex did to you. This will activate his rescuer/fixer (White Knight, Savior,...) and make him feel like you "need" him.

* Sex: Have sex with him ALL THE TIME. This is probably the most important step in CEMENTING his connection with you, so do it every chance you get. Never forget: SEX IS A TOOL FOR CONTROL. Do not enjoy it too much, just pretend to enjoy it.

* Put him on the leash: Keep the above steps for several months; Let him have some freedom to see his friends and pursue his hobbies. If you were successful in the above steps, you shouldn't have too much of a problem because he has probably started to think he loves you and won't want to leave your side too often

* Let the shit test begin. While he is out with his friends, casually send him friendly, flirty, sexy texts. Watch anything you can exploit - not returning texts fast enough, coming back late,... Once you "catch" him call him out on it. Exaggerate what he did, put him on the defensive in a way that he feels he must prove himself worthy to you... Get mad at him in a text, on the phone or in person. Then threaten to break up with him. If he wants to work it out, if he apologizes, congratulations! Now you can have sex with him. This is key: you want him to link compliance with sex. He complies, he will be rewarded with Love and Sex. He doesn't comply: No Love and No sex!

If he doesn't do anything you want, when you want, get mad at him and blame him for making you unhappy and any other problem you can think of. Bring up past times he made you unhappy, make him keep playing defense. Be sure to exaggerate what he did. Don't worry, his rescuer/fixer impulses will divert all the blame from you to him for now.

* The carrot and the whip: Bring up past relationships, tell him that at the 6 month mark is the time when you realize you are not into a guy anymore or that you trust him more and love him. This will keep him on his toes as it will also scare him into thinking you might leave him, and he probably doesn't want to lose the daily hot sex

* After the X months mark, reduce the sex to 3 times per week and tone it down a little, as this is 'acceptable' and 'normal' amount of sex for 'healthy' relationship. Continue with the daily maintenance abuse like minor silent treatments, sarcasm, eye rolling, and once in a while shrug off his attempts at affection

* Seal the deal, move in with him. Tell him things he can do for you to make you happy (they don't have to be true). You want him to think that happiness is completely within his power to achieve and the reason you get mad sometimes is because of something he did. Tell him that moving in with him would make you feel happy and secure while simultaneously claiming you're nervous and apprehensive.

If he starts to come to his senses too quickly after you move in, crank the FOG machine (Fear - Obligation - Guilt) and say things like: "I knew this was gonna happen, I always get screwed over" and "I should never have moved in with you" and "why didn't you tell me this before I moved in?"

* Pee on his territory: Assert your dominance and make him feel like a guest in his own home. Make sure he gets rid of some of his things, tell him there is just not enough of room for both your furniture and that your items are nicer. If he doesn't comply throw a tantrum and tell him he isn't committed to the relationship (play the victim)

* Isolate. Cut off his support system. You don't want him to mention your behavior to his friends or family. When he makes plans with his friends either get mad at him, use the silent treatment or guilt him by saying he cares about his friends more than you. Using this tactics a few times will cause him to equate seeing his friends to doing something wrong and hurting you, which causes stress and anxiety for him. Accuse him of hitting women or going to a strip club behind his back. If these tactics don't work, turn him against his friends

* Once you're moved in, ramp up the FOG. Now that you have him under control and it is exponentially harder for him to break up with you or leave you since you live in his house, you can basically do anything you want. Quit your job, find a lazy part time job, or don't work at all. Don't do any house work, the house might get cluttered but he will eventually clean it for you. All you have to do is tell him you are going to clean it and he will believe you.

* It's time to cut off the sex. Only have sex when you feel like it. If he asks you or tries to initiate sex, shut him down. He needs to learn that you only have sex with YOU want to have sex. Remember, he is only there to fulfill YOUR needs, his needs are unimportant.

* Tell him you love him and give him compliments on regular basis. This keeps him off balance and he will attempt to rationalize your manipulation and control because you have him believing what you say instead of what you do.

After couple of months of little to no sex, he will try really hard to initiate. This is what you want. Shut down all of his advances. Meanwhile, make him believe you want to have sex 1-2 times per week, but later, when he thinks you will be having sex, make an excuse like you have a migraine or cramps. Or better, fall asleep on the couch before he has a chance to make any advances. After doing this a few times he will get frustrated and possibly irritated. Us this against him by telling him all he wants you for is sex (play the victim and pathologize his healthy sex drive)

Eventually he will ask you why you don't want sex anymore. Make up an excuse such as "I'm just in that cuddly phase of the relationship".

Periodically, stop all abuse for 2-3 days, and have sex with him if you feel like it. This gets him to let his guard down and forget about the abuse.

When in the bed, don't let him touch you in a sexual way, brush him off and move away from him. This will demoralize him and will make him feel unattractive and unwanted. If his own GF doesn't want to have sex with him and treats him like he is disgusting, he will NEVER have th self-esteem to leave you for another woman. You should still accuse him of looking at and flirting with other women.

* Instill a sense of learned helplessness. Tell him he doesn't communicate well because he holds all of his feelings inside. In case of emergency, threaten to break up with him.

* If all else fails and you think he is going to leave, act arrogant and tell him you will be fine without him. Cry, if it doesn't work call him names like "immature little boy" and bring hurtful things from his past. Don't take blame for anything, if you do you will lose control.

 

[Deg]

Hey all, this is the exact situation I am in right now down to a point. Literally, the exact same situation except she was apparently raped by one guy. I read her diary and it seems like she was more pressured into sex than raped because she ended up saying yes and then she dated her rapist for two weeks after where he ditched her a lot and maybe cheated on her but she broke up with him and came to college. Anyways this question is mostly directed to carpe.

Hey Carpe, I wanted to know what you ended up doing with this girl. Like did the sex improve and you are still with or her or did you break up and she reacted a certain way like any information on your situation would greatly help me out so thanks so much in advance, also I posted my full story more in the board titled "ltr frame and sex woes" if you want to see how our situations are the same thanks all

 

[Fuck This]

Drck,

This is a very eye opening article. I'd love to see the opposite side where the relationship becomes fulfilling and mutual and a real team feeling, where does that diverge in the process?

Ray, wow, that's trully amazing WOW article, I suspected that lots of this is going on (see Red Pill) but this makes it crystal clear. Perhaps some women do it unconsciously, but it rather seems that many are pre-planning it, exactly as described.

Sorry to say, but I really believe that in general women are FAR ahead of guys. Their games is much more elaborated and sophisticated than ours. She plays chess with the guy(s) and she wins - while the guy doesn't even have a clue he's a part of her game. I'm not talking about women being 2-3 years ahead of us, I am talking about 100 years, if not more... It is as if women understand us perfectly, while we have no clue about what's going on in their minds....

This is truly a GOLD article, it allows us to learn a lot and catch a lot of women's BS...


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Made my own notes - by re-writing most of it, LOL, so I'll just paste it for the heck of it:

A guide for women, How to manipulate a guy in a couple of simple steps:

* Keep your mask on at All Times: When you first meet him, tell him what a great guy he is; Admire his accomplishments. Show him that you are a responsible, rational, hard-working adult woman.

* Once you secure a relationship with him, drag your ex-boyfriend through the mud. Tell your new BF all the horrible things your ex did to you. This will activate his rescuer/fixer (White Knight, Savior,...) and make him feel like you "need" him.

* Sex: Have sex with him ALL THE TIME. This is probably the most important step in CEMENTING his connection with you, so do it every chance you get. Never forget: SEX IS A TOOL FOR CONTROL. Do not enjoy it too much, just pretend to enjoy it.

* Put him on the leash: Keep the above steps for several months; Let him have some freedom to see his friends and pursue his hobbies. If you were successful in the above steps, you shouldn't have too much of a problem because he has probably started to think he loves you and won't want to leave your side too often

* Let the shit test begin. While he is out with his friends, casually send him friendly, flirty, sexy texts. Watch anything you can exploit - not returning texts fast enough, coming back late,... Once you "catch" him call him out on it. Exaggerate what he did, put him on the defensive in a way that he feels he must prove himself worthy to you... Get mad at him in a text, on the phone or in person. Then threaten to break up with him. If he wants to work it out, if he apologizes, congratulations! Now you can have sex with him. This is key: you want him to link compliance with sex. He complies, he will be rewarded with Love and Sex. He doesn't comply: No Love and No sex!

If he doesn't do anything you want, when you want, get mad at him and blame him for making you unhappy and any other problem you can think of. Bring up past times he made you unhappy, make him keep playing defense. Be sure to exaggerate what he did. Don't worry, his rescuer/fixer impulses will divert all the blame from you to him for now.

* The carrot and the whip: Bring up past relationships, tell him that at the 6 month mark is the time when you realize you are not into a guy anymore or that you trust him more and love him. This will keep him on his toes as it will also scare him into thinking you might leave him, and he probably doesn't want to lose the daily hot sex

* After the X months mark, reduce the sex to 3 times per week and tone it down a little, as this is 'acceptable' and 'normal' amount of sex for 'healthy' relationship. Continue with the daily maintenance abuse like minor silent treatments, sarcasm, eye rolling, and once in a while shrug off his attempts at affection

* Seal the deal, move in with him. Tell him things he can do for you to make you happy (they don't have to be true). You want him to think that happiness is completely within his power to achieve and the reason you get mad sometimes is because of something he did. Tell him that moving in with him would make you feel happy and secure while simultaneously claiming you're nervous and apprehensive.

If he starts to come to his senses too quickly after you move in, crank the FOG machine (Fear - Obligation - Guilt) and say things like: "I knew this was gonna happen, I always get screwed over" and "I should never have moved in with you" and "why didn't you tell me this before I moved in?"

* Pee on his territory: Assert your dominance and make him feel like a guest in his own home. Make sure he gets rid of some of his things, tell him there is just not enough of room for both your furniture and that your items are nicer. If he doesn't comply throw a tantrum and tell him he isn't committed to the relationship (play the victim)

* Isolate. Cut off his support system. You don't want him to mention your behavior to his friends or family. When he makes plans with his friends either get mad at him, use the silent treatment or guilt him by saying he cares about his friends more than you. Using this tactics a few times will cause him to equate seeing his friends to doing something wrong and hurting you, which causes stress and anxiety for him. Accuse him of hitting women or going to a strip club behind his back. If these tactics don't work, turn him against his friends

* Once you're moved in, ramp up the FOG. Now that you have him under control and it is exponentially harder for him to break up with you or leave you since you live in his house, you can basically do anything you want. Quit your job, find a lazy part time job, or don't work at all. Don't do any house work, the house might get cluttered but he will eventually clean it for you. All you have to do is tell him you are going to clean it and he will believe you.

* It's time to cut off the sex. Only have sex when you feel like it. If he asks you or tries to initiate sex, shut him down. He needs to learn that you only have sex with YOU want to have sex. Remember, he is only there to fulfill YOUR needs, his needs are unimportant.

* Tell him you love him and give him compliments on regular basis. This keeps him off balance and he will attempt to rationalize your manipulation and control because you have him believing what you say instead of what you do.

After couple of months of little to no sex, he will try really hard to initiate. This is what you want. Shut down all of his advances. Meanwhile, make him believe you want to have sex 1-2 times per week, but later, when he thinks you will be having sex, make an excuse like you have a migraine or cramps. Or better, fall asleep on the couch before he has a chance to make any advances. After doing this a few times he will get frustrated and possibly irritated. Us this against him by telling him all he wants you for is sex (play the victim and pathologize his healthy sex drive)

Eventually he will ask you why you don't want sex anymore. Make up an excuse such as "I'm just in that cuddly phase of the relationship".

Periodically, stop all abuse for 2-3 days, and have sex with him if you feel like it. This gets him to let his guard down and forget about the abuse.

When in the bed, don't let him touch you in a sexual way, brush him off and move away from him. This will demoralize him and will make him feel unattractive and unwanted. If his own GF doesn't want to have sex with him and treats him like he is disgusting, he will NEVER have th self-esteem to leave you for another woman. You should still accuse him of looking at and flirting with other women.

* Instill a sense of learned helplessness. Tell him he doesn't communicate well because he holds all of his feelings inside. In case of emergency, threaten to break up with him.

* If all else fails and you think he is going to leave, act arrogant and tell him you will be fine without him. Cry, if it doesn't work call him names like "immature little boy" and bring hurtful things from his past. Don't take blame for anything, if you do you will lose control.

 

[Danny]

http://www.empowher.com/sex-relationshi ... e-syndrome

Hey guys I was researching this topic online and I came across this article that talks about a post rape syndrome where the girl may many years later feel the effects of being raped and becomes uncomfortable with sex similar to what ardent said, do you guys think maybe it's this??

 

[Carpe-DM]

Hey all, this is the exact situation I am in right now down to a point. Literally, the exact same situation except she was apparently raped by one guy. I read her diary and it seems like she was more pressured into sex than raped because she ended up saying yes and then she dated her rapist for two weeks after where he ditched her a lot and maybe cheated on her but she broke up with him and came to college. Anyways this question is mostly directed to carpe.

Hey Carpe, I wanted to know what you ended up doing with this girl. Like did the sex improve and you are still with or her or did you break up and she reacted a certain way like any information on your situation would greatly help me out so thanks so much in advance, also I posted my full story more in the board titled "ltr frame and sex woes" if you want to see how our situations are the same thanks all

Hey, Deg. Around October, 4 months after my original post, sex started getting REALLY bad at times. It ebbed and flowed, but there was one time where I almost got up and left. I couldn't even sleep well that night because I was up in my own head wondering what to do...because this girl was almost perfect for me except for this sex issue, and a serious jealousy/insecurity issue. Nobody is perfect and those seemed solvable, particularly since the sex was great at first. Anyway, she said "it's nothing to lose sleep over" to which I replied "yes, it is". That woke her up and things actually got a bit better for a while.

A couple of months later, she was diagnosed with Hashimoto's syndrome, where your immune system attacks your thyroid. That sucks, but it's very treatable, and the symptoms totally explain her behaviour. I was super psyched- solution! Her endocrinologist was booked for months though. I forgot to mention that over this time, her jealousy and insecurity had been snowballing to extreme levels. Any contact with other women would make her paranoid, even a new facebook friend. It turns out paranoia is a symptom of Hashimoto's. Before Hashimoto's I actually considered cheating on her, as the sex was bad, and she treated me as though I was anyway, but after I found out why I decided to wait to see how treatment worked.

Around this time (New year) I had a great high-paying job, but was getting burnt out. I decided to take a Sabbatical, which I've done one other time and traveled the world for an entire year. Couldn't do that with her, so I decided to take a few side trips. I planned a trip to the Philippines and felt her out for a MONTH before I booked it. She was super encouraging and supportive. As soon as I booked it, a switch flipped. She went totally cold. I left and as soon as I had a new facebook friend who was female, she flipped out. She said "we need transparent communication". That's excessive, but OK...something we can work on. Half way through my trip, two days after that email, she dumps me. I was heartbroken, but was like "fuck it- nothing I can do" and got with 4 women that week, then came home. The day after I arrived home is the day she finally saw her endocrinologist; she won't get treatment for another several months. I was so fucking frustrated; she broke up with me not over something I did, but over shit that was going on in her own head, exasperated by her hormonal condition. I was so angry, frustrated, and sad. I saw her that day. She was calm and cold...and I was super heart broken; her eyes were dry, mine were not. She was bringing up stuff I thought was solved two years ago and hasn't been mentioned since as the reason she was insecure with me (so much for transparent communication). In the month since I tried to spend time with her, but she'd have none of it. It's such a shitty situation...such a compatible woman, with completely solvable problems that'll be fixed shortly...while she's single. What a fucking waste. It kind of sent me into a depression, but I'm ready to get out there again. Going on a date tomorrow.

I did some things early in the relationship that made her question my trust (I didn't cheat on her though). I thought those issues were behind us until recently. That's the basic answer though; it was her own insecurity exasperated by a hormonal issue. I think she also has some PTSD regarding the sexual issue.