Socializing (Guy Attempts AMOG) Winning Public Emotional Arguments with Public Opinion Against you

[Kaida]

Fortunately today I was on the good end of this.

We had just finished a track meet earlier this evening, and my (boys and girls) track team was loading the bus to leave. I and most of the others on the team were sitting on the bus minding our own business.

Soon after one of my teammates just got on the bus he walked up beside me and told me to get up from his seat. Apparently he was sitting there the last time. Its proper custom here to sit where you sat last time to avoid arguments like this.

Nobody was really paying attention to us at this point. But, I didn’t like how rude he asked it.

Plus I’m trying to be more of an asshole. So I stayed put and pointed to another possible seat for him.

It was a less desirable seat because he’d have to share the space with someone.

He kept insisting, with stuff like “get the fuck up and sit over there”. At that point I know the confrontation was getting too emotional for me to budge, so I stayed put.


I even offered him to sit next to the window beside me but he wanted the whole seat.

It kept escalating. Eventually it got extremely emotional (on his end). Imagine seeing a black man turn red and threatening to swing at you.

I was incredibly chill nonverbally. Kept very strong eye contact and body language. I was kind of lost on what to say verbally though


Soon it got to the point where the whole entire bus was looking at this idiot yell at me over a seat. All I did was calmly tell him to either sit with me or find another one (which I suspect pissed him off more.)


Once people heard enough to understand the argument that was happening, they started chiming in. Most were telling him to “just sit down”, but one time I heard a girl yell for me to just get up as well.

Eventually the coach broke it up and told him to sit down somewhere else. He was fuming angry yelling at me that he “wont forget this” (wtf lmao).

after the argument commended me and said I made him look dumb just looking at him calmly.

————————————————————

While I did “win” this encounter, it made me realize that the court of public opinion is a fair factor in emotional arguments like this.

I feel like the main reason public opinion was with me was because of the huge nonverbal difference between us.

I was calm and steady and he was crazy and mad, which led to them taking my side automatically.

But I have also had experiences (even in the exact situation!) where public opinion was with the other guy.

It feels overwhelming with everybody telling you to move, and the guy you’re arguing with having a strengthened frame because of it.

Public opinion being against you in an argument seems like a double bind, especially when you also have to handle your reputation. Capitulate and you lose massive respect and emotional momentum. Double down and you lose massive likability. Up to me I’d rather have the respect, but I want both.


What do you do in public emotional arguments with public opinion against you?

 

[MarioTheDom]

So first of all

There is always a fine balance between risk and reward in life.

Many many years ago I had a guy acting like an asshole with me and other people (bear in mind, at the time I was 186cm x 88 kg so no small guy) to look "bad ass" and we ended up in a scuffle. We grappled a bit before people divides us but in the process he broke his phone. Was it worthy?

Last winter, I was with my date in a bar enjoying a drink while a French guy tried to amog me and "interrupt us" ( I was escalating under the table so I was kinda pissed off) He started yelling me that I was a shit, a jerk and everything while being emotionally triggered, with me sitting and drinking and laughing at him. My date told me that she thought it was extremely hot.
But the guy was there with 3 of his buddies and was trying to have a fight with me afterwards. Although nothing happened... but what could have happened?

So while your argument was reasonable and arguing for a seat made the guy clearly someone is taking his "social hierarchy" spot, would the risk beat this reward? Would have given the seat to the guy and win him over to give you value further down the lane better?
Different things to value on what to do.

 

[Chase]

Soon after one of my teammates just got on the bus he walked up beside me and told me to get up from his seat. Apparently he was sitting there the last time. Its proper custom here to sit where you sat last time to avoid arguments like this.

Nobody was really paying attention to us at this point. But, I didn’t like how rude he asked it.

This is the clincher to me.

If there's an unspoken understanding everyone keeps the same seats, that's one thing.

If a dude is going to come up and tell you to move from his seat in a rude way, that is another thing.

Acceptable way to ask, plus you acceding to his request:

HIM: Hey bro, that's my seat from last time. Mind if I grab it back?​

​

YOU: My bad homie. Just keepin' it warm for you. It's all yours! [move]​

Unacceptable way to demand, plus you denying his demand:

HIM: Yo, get up out my seat.​

​

YOU: [point] There's a seat over there.​

Probably since you're in high school this was just some kid with unpolished social skills who didn't know any better way to ask.

Sometimes if you think someone is simply unpolished and flailing about, the better way is to try to give that person a way to save face, e.g.:

HIM: Yo, get up out my seat.​

​

YOU: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?​

That said, like @MarioTheDom notes, the dude was possibly spoiling for a fight already. When you get dudes walking right up to you giving you orders, a lot of the time it's because they're socially stunted and/or fear if they aren't authoritative you'll ignore them (or, if it's at bars, they're just drunk and emotional), but sometimes they just want to fight with someone.

I have had dudes pull stunts like this, asked them in a chill way to ask again politely, then they did, and I moved and let them have whatever spot they were attached to. Sometimes they even get really friendly with you after that! A lot of dudes respect a dude who is able to deescalate with them without making himself or them lose face. Men are REALLY weird about territory (personally, I have never really understood this. I've had guys take some seat I was returning to or whatever, but usually a polite request is all you need to get it back: "Hey bro, mind if I grab back the seat I was on?" I think most guys just don't know how to ask in a chill way and are afraid they're going to get clowned if they walk up and get rejected for 'their' territory).

Chase

 

[Kaida]

HIM: Yo, get up out my seat.YOU: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?

That said, like @MarioTheDom notes, the dude was possibly spoiling for a fight already. When you get dudes walking right up to you giving you orders, a lot of the time it's because they're socially stunted and/or fear if they aren't authoritative you'll ignore them (or, if it's at bars, they're just drunk and emotional), but sometimes they just want to fight with someone.

I’ve actually tried this before a year or two back:

(Nobody looking at us)

(I’m sitting where his friend normally sits)

Guy: Hey, scoot over for my friend. (Rude)

Me: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?

Guy: I’m not saying please for shit, thats my seat

(Now people looking at us)

Me: You’re gonna need to ask politely

Guy: I’m not saying please

Me: Then find another seat

Multiple Outsiders (to me): Dude just scoot over, thats where they normally sit. It’s the unwritten rule

————————————————————

At this point its not like I can explain to the crowd that he was being rude about it and that’s why I’m not budging.

All they see is me breaking social norms which shifts the public opinion against me.

I’ve been in many situations like this and it seemed impossible to win

What would you do

 

[Skills]

Fortunately today I was on the good end of this.

We had just finished a track meet earlier this evening, and my (boys and girls) track team was loading the bus to leave. I and most of the others on the team were sitting on the bus minding our own business.

Soon after one of my teammates just got on the bus he walked up beside me and told me to get up from his seat. Apparently he was sitting there the last time. Its proper custom here to sit where you sat last time to avoid arguments like this.

Nobody was really paying attention to us at this point. But, I didn’t like how rude he asked it.

Plus I’m trying to be more of an asshole. So I stayed put and pointed to another possible seat for him.

It was a less desirable seat because he’d have to share the space with someone.

He kept insisting, with stuff like “get the fuck up and sit over there”. At that point I know the confrontation was getting too emotional for me to budge, so I stayed put.


I even offered him to sit next to the window beside me but he wanted the whole seat.

It kept escalating. Eventually it got extremely emotional (on his end). Imagine seeing a black man turn red and threatening to swing at you.

I was incredibly chill nonverbally. Kept very strong eye contact and body language. I was kind of lost on what to say verbally though


Soon it got to the point where the whole entire bus was looking at this idiot yell at me over a seat. All I did was calmly tell him to either sit with me or find another one (which I suspect pissed him off more.)


Once people heard enough to understand the argument that was happening, they started chiming in. Most were telling him to “just sit down”, but one time I heard a girl yell for me to just get up as well.

Eventually the coach broke it up and told him to sit down somewhere else. He was fuming angry yelling at me that he “wont forget this” (wtf lmao).

after the argument commended me and said I made him look dumb just looking at him calmly.

————————————————————

While I did “win” this encounter, it made me realize that the court of public opinion is a fair factor in emotional arguments like this.

I feel like the main reason public opinion was with me was because of the huge nonverbal difference between us.

I was calm and steady and he was crazy and mad, which led to them taking my side automatically.

But I have also had experiences (even in the exact situation!) where public opinion was with the other guy.

It feels overwhelming with everybody telling you to move, and the guy you’re arguing with having a strengthened frame because of it.

Public opinion being against you in an argument seems like a double bind, especially when you also have to handle your reputation. Capitulate and you lose massive respect and emotional momentum. Double down and you lose massive likability. Up to me I’d rather have the respect, but I want both.


What do you do in public emotional arguments with public opinion against you?

I think you handle it right........ Great patience! just be careful and be alert and think ahead of what to do in case he is about swing at you......you were in a sitting position which is a great disadvantage fighting wise....

 

[Rakehell]

Yes I agree with all points made. Also, awesome frame control man! If I were you i’d brainstorm angles you could’ve used to make it more appealing for all parties involved causing him to deescalate on his own.

It’s not always possible if the guy has it out for you, but the sweet spot is making it appealing for all parties involved, without necessarily tossing yourself under the bus.

Should prevent any vindictiveness in the future.

 

[Kaida]

I’ve actually tried this before a year or two back:

(Nobody looking at us)

(I’m sitting where his friend normally sits)

Guy: Hey, scoot over for my friend. (Rude)

Me: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?

Guy: I’m not saying please for shit, thats my seat

(Now people looking at us)

Me: You’re gonna need to ask politely

Guy: I’m not saying please

Me: Then find another seat

Multiple Outsiders (to me): Dude just scoot over, thats where they normally sit. It’s the unwritten rule

————————————————————

At this point its not like I can explain to the crowd that he was being rude about it and that’s why I’m not budging.

All they see is me breaking social norms which shifts the public opinion against me.

I’ve been in many situations like this and it seemed impossible to win

What would you do

bump ^

 

[MarioTheDom]

I’ve actually tried this before a year or two back:

(Nobody looking at us)

(I’m sitting where his friend normally sits)

Guy: Hey, scoot over for my friend. (Rude)

Me: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?

Guy: I’m not saying please for shit, thats my seat

(Now people looking at us)

Me: You’re gonna need to ask politely

Guy: I’m not saying please

Me: Then find another seat

Multiple Outsiders (to me): Dude just scoot over, thats where they normally sit. It’s the unwritten rule

————————————————————

At this point its not like I can explain to the crowd that he was being rude about it and that’s why I’m not budging.

All they see is me breaking social norms which shifts the public opinion against me.

I’ve been in many situations like this and it seemed impossible to win

What would you do

I need a bit more of context because while we work with generalities, certain details work.

In general, I would say if someone says to me "I’m not saying please" I immediately shut down the conversation. "ok then we are not talking"

Although I understand that "you are gonna need to ask politely" might have sounded like a challenge to the guy.


BTW: what the hell is happening with all these seats, jesus can't people just fucking sit where it's free?

 

[Will_V]

I’ve actually tried this before a year or two back:

(Nobody looking at us)

(I’m sitting where his friend normally sits)

Guy: Hey, scoot over for my friend. (Rude)

Me: Huh? [look around] Uhhhh, I'm sorry dude, I don't respond to orders. [chill laugh] Want to ask politely and probably I'll agree?

Guy: I’m not saying please for shit, thats my seat

(Now people looking at us)

Me: You’re gonna need to ask politely

Guy: I’m not saying please

Me: Then find another seat

Multiple Outsiders (to me): Dude just scoot over, thats where they normally sit. It’s the unwritten rule

————————————————————

At this point its not like I can explain to the crowd that he was being rude about it and that’s why I’m not budging.

All they see is me breaking social norms which shifts the public opinion against me.

I’ve been in many situations like this and it seemed impossible to win

What would you do

You might need to get your school to requisition for more seats lol

I don't think you did anything particularly wrong here, although as @MarioTheDom pointed out depending on how you say something it can come across as a challenge or even an outright insult. It's important to be always able to communicate with someone in the way that they are likely to best respond to. For example if you're dealing with a lower class type of dude, he's probably going to look at the idea of being polite as a challenge to his rebellious persona.

And of course tone and facial expression are always crucial as well whenever engaging with someone - people communicate 90% nonverbal so they will respond to underlying fear or aggression as such, regardless of what you say.

I think one of the issues here is that despite your awareness of the situation you are still coming from a reactive framework without clear intentions. The person with greater frame control is the one who is certain of what outcome they want. Do you really want peace and friendship? If so, you will naturally dispose yourself to whatever will achieve it. But if you are simply testing, it's very hard to give the other person an authentic impression that you are good natured and not looking for conflict. There's nothing like mixed signals to put other people on edge.

I'm not saying you should never test your limits, but do understand that it changes the frame and the kind of outcomes that are likely to develop.

Finally, if this sort of thing happens regularly I would keep in mind a very useful rule to remember: people never enter conflict without believing that they will come out on top - not just in terms of physical damage but social and reputational as well. If someone does something you don't like, always ask yourself - what did they see that made them believe that it would be possible for them to get away with it? This is the broad question that, if answered well, will make these kind of issues very few and far between.

 

[Kaida]

In general, I would say if someone says to me "I’m not saying please" I immediately shut down the conversation. "ok then we are not talking"

Great one! I’m using that. I’m sure whoever I’m using it with will insist though

Finally, if this sort of thing happens regularly I would keep in mind a very useful rule to remember: people never enter conflict without believing that they will come out on top - not just in terms of physical damage but social and reputational as well.

True man. In the case I wrote in the OP, Im pretty sure he only thought he could win because of the social norm he could get behind.

————————————————————

But how do I handle it if outsiders are intruding & giving the other guy ammo? Does this mean it shouldnt be a factor for me

Imagine the entire social circle is hopping on his side and is against you. Do you guys just ignore them in situations like this

 

[Rakehell]

Imagine the entire social circle is hopping on his side and is against you. Do you guys just ignore them in situations like this

Depends on the context of why they’re doing it, and whether or not they’re people you are cool with. Sometimes it’s okay to back down, it isn’t always a battle of frames.

If it’s malicious, this is how i’ve handled it in the past.

Yeah this is expected. When the only audience is the guy’s lackies they’re pretty much gonna yes man everything he say’s.

You win this by out framing the main guy and shutting him down, and when their friends chime in to back him up you give them a brief glance almost ignoring what they say altogether. To them it’ll feel like “what you’re saying isn’t even worth acknowledging fully” only communicate with them nonverbally.

The strongest guy’s are usually never the initiators, and usually remain defensive as they have nothing to gain from challenging others. So guy’s who are steady challenging normally don’t have great frame control or deep understanding of power dynamics.

^This is for when a guy has an issue with you, but he has friends backing up what he’s saying just because

Now if someone gets others opinions on his side just by strength of argument alone, that may be a time to back down as well. You’d have to make the distinction yourself whether it’s worth sticking to your guns. Depends on what’s being gained and what’ll be lost for me personally.

 

[Kaida]

Depends on the context of why they’re doing it, and whether or not they’re people you are cool with. Sometimes it’s okay to back down, it isn’t always a battle of frames.

If it’s malicious, this is how i’ve handled it in the past.


^This is for when a guy has an issue with you, but he has friends backing up what he’s saying just because

Now if someone gets others opinions on his side just by strength of argument alone, that may be a time to back down as well. You’d have to make the distinction yourself whether it’s worth sticking to your guns. Depends on what’s being gained and what’ll be lost for me personally.

Ok yea thats a great way to respond.

Now if someone gets others opinions on his side just by strength of argument alone, that may be a time to back down as well. You’d have to make the distinction yourself whether it’s worth sticking to your guns. Depends on what’s being gained and what’ll be lost for me personally.

I know I’ve been in situations like this where I felt “locked in” since the argument was already pretty heated. I didnt know how to back down so I just doubled down.

If you’re in a heated emotional argument and force of argument is on their side, how would you back off while saving face?

 

[Rakehell]

If you’re in a heated emotional argument and force of argument is on their side, how would you back off while saving face?

I’d start by trying not to get overly emotional in the first place. Kind of like how you did in the OP.

Next i’d try to pinpoint what their anger stems from.

Let’s assume that this is a situation where you aren’t violating some unspoken rule, and noones in the wrong.

If you’ve already stated your case the best way you know how, then there’s no point in continuing to state the same case because it’ll have the same effect as it did before.

So in a situation where someone is reacting viscerally to whatever i’m doing, people are on their side, and I care enough to deescalate in a way that benefits both of us.

I’d address their emotions first, address everyone else, and then concede some ground gracefully on the meta level.

Most guys feel like they cant backdown, you have to go around their ego most of the time, otherwise it’ll continue to escalate.

“Okay man well this is going nowhere, while I don’t agree necessarily, everyones here to have a good time and it’ll only continue to ruin the mood if this continues to go on” with,

-x ur my bro, didn’t realize this was enough to get you all riled up, how about we side step this and get back to business as usual?

Something like that if it’s a guy im familiar with^

 

[Will_V]

But how do I handle it if outsiders are intruding & giving the other guy ammo? Does this mean it shouldnt be a factor for me

Imagine the entire social circle is hopping on his side and is against you. Do you guys just ignore them in situations like this

You can't defeat a mob directly. If you find yourself completely opposed by a group, you did something wrong, and you don't really have any option but to back down.

I think the crucial thing you are missing in your frame is to make other people not want to confront you. And I don't just mean by being intimidating (which is not all that useful with a mob anyway) but because they like or admire you. This is where being chill and calm and de-escalating (while being firm about your perspective) is so useful, because while in the moment your ego will try to make you feel weak for it, it looks very good from the outside.

Aggression is a bit like sex: when you're doing it you feel powerful, but from the outside you can simply look disconnected from reality. In groups it is this third party perspective that is most important to maintain. When you show a lot of self control, and the willingness to communicate rationally and patiently, it makes people who are ready to give in to their passions (which is the impulse that spreads through a mob) feel self conscious and instinctively defer to you in some way.

It's also very good to know how to back down without losing your frame. To do this it's necessary to show a kind of respect for the other person or group that only goes a certain distance and no more. But when the ego takes control, it tries to suppress reality and anything that is contrary to its efforts to dominate a situation by force, opening up all kinds of vulnerabilities and closing down all kinds of future paths in the process.

 

[PrancingRabbit]

This has been a great read. Damnit! I recently claimed to be completely over high school "trauma and drama" when the topic came up in a conversation and have realized I'm not. The realization has come due to a) admission that I continue to ruminate over some past incidents; and b) discomfort while engaging in fresh/contemporary conflict. What I wanted to offer is twofold.

One- visualizations of rejection and response to it are at the heart of my own growth practice right now. Don't think you have to wait for another situation like this to arise before you'll get another opportunity to practice or gain new awareness of yourself-- but also don't expect growth to occur just by reading advice here or elsewhere. You can simply practice visualizing negative outcomes in a controlled invironment, i.e, in your head!

Having a "machine" to put traumatic experience through is like nothing else I know of. That machine is a visualization. I've also seen it recommended to write out full interactions based on principles yer learning, in a post stikied at "Best of The Beginners Board", titled "Practices I've Found Helpful With Opening." In that post, the author states, " Retraining your brain is quite easy, and you can consciously make the new connections in you brain. With this in mind, you can plan for future interactions now by training your mind to familiarize itself with them, rerouting your thought process to cope with future challenges so to speak."

Two- Another angle on the "what's my part?" tip I've not seen offered is that of social revolt-- meaning you either occupy a place within the group dynamic others want to displace you from, or you are a tyrant others want escape from. I've been reworking an encounter I had while in high school in which I was challenged, and it recently occured to me that I perhaps need to not only focus on "offering quality" in response, but also retooling my personality to "offer quality" so I'm not seen as either a tyrant or a wet-blanket or both. Well, those are the two main reaons I've experienced flack from groups or individuals supported by groups.

Understanding this dynamic became possible through the visualizations, which have replaced ruminating on contriving to somehow communicate with these folks. Realizing that isn't going to happen-- meaning some sort of group healing process-- dealing with the core issues within myself, and psyching myself up to keep doing my best in the present are the best paths forward I know of.

Thanks again for this share. Bump-up to all replies as well! (By the way, what does "bump" mean other than that you like something?