HELP: Can't Read Girls on Dates (Making the Same Mistakes Consistently)

[Paulie Walnuts]

Lo Everyone, it's good to be back on GC; I had to take a long hiatus because I was off focusing on my modeling/acting and a whole bunch of other shit.

Anyway I'm having a serious issue, I keep making the same mistakes consistently; I'm not sure if I'm slightly retarded or something, but there is something seriously wrong with the ratio of: Number of women I've gone out with since my ex and I broke up back in October and the number of women who I sleep with/get second dates with (or continue to see)/or even text back.

I understand bar pickup, it just makes sense and seems to work really well, be overtly aggressive and dominant (obviously not to a creepy point where the bouncers will kick you out and you're freaking women out), and just not give two fucks. Girl #1 rejects me? Dope I'll go hit on your best friend. I go out with a group of guys who use the RSD module but with my own personal tweaks plus the GC techniques I learned I do decently well in bar pickup and even get a fair number of dates out of numbers I pickup during Night game as well as make outs/lays (even if I get absolutely nothing I don't care because it's fucking awesome going out with my mates and hitting on random girls, I just have a great time during Nightgame).

My problem is with dates, there's some like... weird disconnect where I'm not understanding what I'm supposed to be doing and I'm 90% sure it's that my calibration is off because I CAN'T READ WOMEN WORTH SHIT.

Tonight for instance: I double booked my night so I had to choose between older girl in her late 20's and girl my age (early 20's), I flaked on the older one but left it open for another time, the girl I'm meeting is a beautiful Filipina/Puerto Rican hybrid and it turns out we actually went to high school together (graduated same year but from different schools, I only attended her school for a year). I popped her number off of Okcupid last night and we set the date up for tonight. Did the usual confirmation text and then after she responded I let her know when I was on my way.

Please go through this and point out every mistake I made (if you'd be so kind, I'm having a lot of trouble here and I'm really trying to learn what I'm doing wrong): We meet outside of the bar I suggested, she's talking on her phone to her roommate, she gets off phone and we hug and say hello; I make some joke about both of us being cat people (she mentioned she was talking to the roommate about her 2 cats). I ask her if she'd like to get a drink at this bar or another of the two bars that's close to us, she says she likes all 3 places so I say let's go to the one we're already at. We walk in and I suggest taking a booth instead of the bar (it was full), so we're sitting across from each other; there are no places for me to sit next to her without it being awkward and weird.

We start chatting and I'm making her laugh a lot (I don't know why I was just in a sarcastic, sardonic mood, think "Chandler from Friends"). I tell her that I actually don't drink, but I do order a root beer and she orders a strawberry lemonade. We chat more and it turns out I know her ex boyfriend (I played basketball all summer with him and a couple of his jock buddies, bro types but good guys), she also knows my ex girlfriend (since we all went to high school together). She tells me all about what she does for fun and shit and I lightly tease her here and there, I mentioned that I'm not usually this much of a dick but only when I'm nervous (playing off something she said about being nervous, idk why I said it tbh it probably made me sound weak). I tell her about recently getting out of surgery blah blah blah, the blog I've started to help people with Disabilities/Depression/Anxiety and the book I'm writing along with it, all to help those people have not just a normal life but one filled with shenanigans and crazy awesome memories.

Anyway stupid me I paid for both of us -_- (I don't normally pay for dates but in this situation it SEEMED like the right thing to do). This is after about 45 minutes of chatting, (I lightly flirted with her, telling her that her nose piercing was gorgeous on her and I don't know how I didn't notice her in high school because she was incredibly attractive), I remember also asking her why her and her ex broke up and why she was on Okcupid (she needed to get back in the dating game or so her roommates said).

I think I may have used too much self-deprecating humor too, and then I said let's go for a walk to the park after I paid the bill. We went to the park and she was walking kind of fast and I used some light touching while we were talking, we start making fun of the pokemon Go players at the park and then I suggest going to sit down on the benches (note there was no opportunity for me to take her hand or anything). When we sit down on the bench I wait like 3-4 minutes and put my arm around her, she didn't seem to tense up but she didn't cuddle up either like most girls do when I do that, I'm not sure what to do so I remove my hand and talk for a bit more. 5 minutes later I do the same thing and pull her a little closer and it seems like it's going fine when she "mysteriously gets a phone call from roommate about her dog escaping", this sounds stupid af but somehow I fell for it -_-, I offer to help find the dog. I say since we're going to to the same town we can take seperate cars and then she can text me her address and we can meet and search for said dog. While we're walking she seems distraught so I put my arm around her and she says "This isn't how I was expecting my night to end" I say: "Hey it's cool we'll find dog , first date adventure eh?", IT ALL SEEMED SO CHILL. I can never tell when something is wrong with a girl and I need to get better at reading them because clearly I fucked up and did something wrong. We walk back to parking garage, I give her a quick hug and say I'll see her soon and to text me her address; get to my car and text her for address and get no response. Ok I start driving to my town, call her once, rings the whole time no answer w/e. I wait another 5 minutes and call again; this time she rejects the call after 2 rings. I now understand I am a shmuck.

I drive home, I text her and message her on okcupid the same message: "You could have just said you weren't interested lol, there was no need to make up a story about your "lost dog", anyway I hope you find someone on here " (it was something like that anyway), then I delete her number and block her on Okcupid, yes I realize I am butthurt, I understand I shouldn't take this personally (or maybe I should since it's probably something I messed up on).

I tell my dad what happened over a cigarette, he explains to me that I should stop being so aggressive and like a bull (like he was as a 20 something), he tells me I need to read women better and should move slower. I tell him the generation is different and hooking up fast is the thing, he explains that not all women are whores and that some girls require a guy to move slower; how does this fit in with out Red Pill philosophy? Is it correct? Do I need to move slower and calibrate better? Wtf am I doing wrong, this kind of thing has happened before. Everything seems to be going great and then I either don't get a text back or.... they dissapear or flake on the second date.....

HELP GC!!!

 

[lao che]

ignore your dad.
dominance, or lack of, is your main issue. from reading through your date it sounds like you come across as kind of a pussy.

and that's after introducing yourself as an actor and model. and it sounds like you do great when you're out at the bars. just having fun with your mates. carry that same vibe into dates. 'you sound like a pretty awesome dude. you just don't believe it yet

i won't go through and point out every little mistake, but here's some -

I ask her if she'd like to get a drink at this bar or another of the two bars

don't ask her. never. just open the door and walk in. don't ask her what she wants, esp on a first date. don't ask her where to sit. etc etc even order a drink for her. or at least suggest something for her to try

your "escalation" in the park seems kinda forced and awkward. what did you hope to achieve with that? it sounds really like you put this girl on a pedestal and were very approval seeking, watching her to see how she reacts to your actions.

holding hands and walking arm in arm is a very relationship kind of thing to do, and generally looks weak - she's just some girl you just met.
i'll put my arm around a girl and pull her close, but it's different it'll be to emphasize a point or joke, or more like you would with a younger sibling or child, or a good friend.
and it's not random and it's not just for the sake of having achieved a goal of being one step closer to the pussy.
holding hands is ok if there's a reason. take her hand and help her over a puddle or guide her somewhere. not just walking along hand in hand

then, after the dog phone call (which def sounds suspicious - it was either a booty call from a dude she's already banging, or more like, a safety call prompted after you creeped her out in the park), you were way too overbearing. let her go.
way too much investment trying to find her lost dog together.
and if you suspected she was lying then what can you achieve by "going to help"? prove that she's a liar?

don't ask her why she's on okc. don't ask her what she's looking for. don't ask about previous boyfriends. don't self-deprecate.

if you walk slowly and she doesn't match your speed, if she walks fast, let her. don't jog to catch up. don't chase

 

[lao che]

one more thing,

it's not necessary to "read" a girl. as we know from reading GC, the only way to know where you're at with a girl is to escalate. she either goes along with the escalation, or she doesn't.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Thanks Lao Che- I think I'm just having trouble realizing what the difference is, I'm not sure why there are some times when I can consistently lead/be dominant and sometimes miserably fail like this and the worst part is "Not even realize where I'm going wrong".

I think I see what you mean as far as "Approval seeking, reaction seeking"

I don't think I've ever actually ran a date based on the complete GC module, and it's got to be an issue of putting women on dates on pedestals; because it's not the same with my friends/women at parties or anywhere else.

What I hoped to get from escalating was I didn't want to leave the date without making a move, that's all I wasn't really sure where I was going with it tbh; so again probably a matter of letting her lead me while thinking I was leading.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Trackrunner,

I agree with all Lao Che said, my additional comments below.

We walk in and I suggest taking a booth instead of the bar (it was full), so we're sitting across from each other; there are no places for me to sit next to her without it being awkward and weird.

Really? I do it every time, sitting side by side with her, nothing awkward about it. Try it, it's much better. Face to face is confrontational, whereas side by side is cooperative. In addition you're closer to her, you can easily touch her, lean into her personal space, whisper things in her ear, play with her hair, etc... Much harder to do all that when you're sitting in front of her with a table in between.

We start chatting and I'm making her laugh a lot (I don't know why I was just in a sarcastic, sardonic mood, think "Chandler from Friends").

Making her laugh will only do so much for your seduction. I tried that approach before... Believe me, you're better off dropping the funny stuff, and try the sexy stuff instead.

We chat more and it turns out I know her ex boyfriend (I played basketball all summer with him and a couple of his jock buddies, bro types but good guys), she also knows my ex girlfriend (since we all went to high school together). She tells me all about what she does for fun and shit and I lightly tease her here and there, I mentioned that I'm not usually this much of a dick but only when I'm nervous (playing off something she said about being nervous, idk why I said it tbh it probably made me sound weak).

A little bit of relating here (good thing), a very brief deep diving (good but too short) then this self justification that you could have avoided altogether.

I tell her about recently getting out of surgery blah blah blah, the blog I've started to help people with Disabilities/Depression/Anxiety and the book I'm writing along with it, all to help those people have not just a normal life but one filled with shenanigans and crazy awesome memories.

Here you're trying to impress. You're bringing the attention on yourself. It should be the other way around, make sure she talks 75pct of the time at least. She should be the star, and not you. Remember, she already likes you, no need to impress her.

I think I may have used too much self-deprecating humor too, and then I said let's go for a walk to the park after I paid the bill.

Don't make fun of yourself. In fact, it is much better to avoid being funny altogether. Regarding the bill, I, for myself, have no qualms about paying it.

We went to the park and she was walking kind of fast and I used some light touching while we were talking, we start making fun of the pokemon Go players at the park and then I suggest going to sit down on the benches (note there was no opportunity for me to take her hand or anything).

This is happening quite late. The physical contact is a barrier that is harder to break, the longer you wait. I recommend initiating touch within the first minutes of meeting her. If you wait longer it will feel awkward, as you "wait for opportunities", and come across as creepy when you rush into the first chance.

When we sit down on the bench I wait like 3-4 minutes and put my arm around her, she didn't seem to tense up but she didn't cuddle up either like most girls do when I do that, I'm not sure what to do so I remove my hand and talk for a bit more.

Too much at once, too late. After that, she is creeped out, and I guess this mysterious phone call is her exit strategy, while trying to save your face. By offering to help her finding the dog you made fool of yourself a little bit.

Another thing, it seems you didn't really have a plan for what next. You were probably betting on a second date to progress the interaction forward. Never assume you will get a second date.

I drive home, I text her and message her on okcupid the same message: "You could have just said you weren't interested lol, there was no need to make up a story about your "lost dog", anyway I hope you find someone on here " (it was something like that anyway), then I delete her number and block her on Okcupid, yes I realize I am butthurt, I understand I shouldn't take this personally (or maybe I should since it's probably something I messed up on).

Never express frustration - you're just sabotaging whatever chances were left.

Do I need to move slower and calibrate better? Wtf am I doing wrong, this kind of thing has happened before. Everything seems to be going great and then I either don't get a text back or.... they dissapear or flake on the second date.....

It is possible to take a girl in your bed straight from the first date, within two to three hours of first meeting her ever (and sometimes less than that), and leave her *happy and grateful* about it. The beauty of it, is that you will not go through a second date flake, since no second date required.

Try this:

• * sit her next to you. "Excuse me, would you mind sitting here? I don't like sitting face to face". Or just "Sit here."
  * initiate touch within the first three minutes of first meet. Incidental touch, like touching her elbow when you make a point.
  * make her speak most of the time. She's the star. You just lead the conversation.
  * As she speaks, gradually increase your touch. Her hand, her arm, her shoulder, or any bare skin. Her hair. Her neck. For instance: she speaks. I gently touch the back of her hand, then open my palm upwards, just next to her hand. She puts her hand in mine. She's still speaking. Later on, I run my hand on her hair. She's speaking. I interrupt her (as I caress her hair): "I like your hair..." then take her hair and smell it. "Smells good " That's usually the only compliment I ever give her.
  * You can also lean in her personal space, and check her reaction. Or suddenly withdraw from touching... And wait that she touches you back!
  * You both have been speaking about one to one hour and a half. Time to go. "Let's go!" "Sure!". You're taking her to your place, but at this point she doesn't know it.
  * If she asks where, tell her "I suggest we have a drink / listen to some music / or whatever / at my place". Your tone is a tone of authority.
  * As you leave the place, take her by the hand in a "follow me" fashion, and lead her to your place.

Then tell us about your results! Much more efficient I would guess.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I fucking love you guys, that's what I needed to hear bro; Seppuku I will try this exact advice out on my next date, which is coming up on Monday (I have another one tomorrow too but we're meeting at her place and she's somehow fallen for me over text, not sure how that one happened so that's not going to take much strategy should be an LR).

The one issue is I currently live with my conservatively Muslim parents that don't allow girls over (and I'm bound by certain Medical issues that make it extremely hard for me to move out right now). However a car shall suffice the same, done it plenty of times before "Let's go for a drive" (authoritative tone), then go somewhere private and escalate properly.

I will say we hugged when we first met up but yes that doesn't really break any kind of physical barrier; thank you both for your advice on this. I hadn't gone out for pickup in about a month and a half because I was in the hospital (but I did last night) and after last night I'm starting to feel a bit of my old dominance and confidence coming back.

Also I understand the not expressing frustration part, it is hard for me I've noticed I get butthurt about that kind of stuff pretty easily; def something I'm working on. It is interesting as well, there have been times over both snapchat and text where I've scared off girls that otherwise were pretty into me just by getting a little frustrated/combative. So I need to work on my emotional balance as well.

 

[Bboy100]

Hey long time no see dude! I'm a little rusty in terms of night game, but text me if you wanna go to the bars, I'm in the area now.

Anyways...about your date:
Everyone else covered the details, but there's one point on which I have to disagree with others.

I tell my dad what happened over a cigarette, he explains to me that I should stop being so aggressive and like a bull (like he was as a 20 something), he tells me I need to read women better and should move slower. I tell him the generation is different and hooking up fast is the thing, he explains that not all women are whores and that some girls require a guy to move slower; how does this fit in with out Red Pill philosophy? Is it correct? Do I need to move slower and calibrate better?

I think you're dad's right. I got coaching with this other guy from a company called Honest Signalz. They're just starting up, so they're not very well known. But they're really good. Check out their youtube channel, they have a lot of videos.

Anyways...one thing he said is this: Time spent together is GOOD not BAD. Time is a form of investment and is one of the key ingrediants to connection building, which as you know, is essential to getting girls (outside of the night game enviornment) to sleep with you. The difference between a "nice guy" and a "sexy, dominate, powerful man" is not how fast he moves. Rather, its just in nonverbals and his general presence (i.e. fundamentals). He didn't say moving fast is bad. In fact, from what I see on his Snapchat, he usually closes on a first date. But as long as you have your fundamentals in place, attraction wont expire. This advice has served me very well. At this point, I don't worry about sex on a first date, I don't worry about "how to escalate" or any of that bullshit. I just worry about getting to know the girl and creating a connection with her. And also screening to see if I actually like her. And I'm getting lots of second dates. Whereas I used to get almost none just like you. Also, from personal experience, I can tell you that the highest quality girl I've ever slept with took me 6 dates. Attraction never expired. I'm still seeing her now 4 months later.

My problem is with dates, there's some like... weird disconnect where I'm not understanding what I'm supposed to be doing and I'm 90% sure it's that my calibration is off because I CAN'T READ WOMEN WORTH SHIT.

I have this problem too. I mentioned it in my call. And he told me to use what he called "statements of empathy". Which is basically any statement which gets verbal confirmation that she's ok with what you're doing. So you might escalate by putting your arm around her and say "btw, I'm a really touchy person, let me know if this is too much". Or as you grab her hand "is this ok, or is it weird for you"?
Usually, women will be honest with you when you ask them. Still don't take only what they say into account. Cause if they say "no, its too much" but they're still laughing, they obviously don't mean it. But if they say it in a normal tone of voice, you'll know its time to back off (for now) or find a different way to touch her.

My immediate response to him was that this type of behavior seems pretty weak because its "asking for her permission" and/or is "approval seeking". His response was that statements of empathy are actually still leading. A good tribe leader will intake the feedback of his people and address their concerns. He won't just go about doing whatever the fuck he wants just to show he "doesn't give a fuck" or that he "dominates" his people. Plus, you've already shown that you're dominant by having the balls to escalate in the first place. By asking her if she's "ok with it", you're just reassuring her that despite your power, you do care about how she feels and do take her feelings into consideration.

Think of it this way...if Brad Pitt used a statement of empathy, would he sound "beta" (i.e. unattractive) or would he show that in addition to his dominance, he's also empathetic and caring (even more attractive than just dominant).

Obviously, I would not recommend this strategy to a complete beginner who doesn't have his fundamentals down yet, cause he'll probably sound like a high schooler on his first date ever. But for a guy like you who's already pretty solid, I think this will be a great way to balance you out

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

BBoy it's good to hear from you bro! Actually I have heard of Honest Singnalz, one of my wings just got back from filming infield for them , you met him at that party we went to.

I absolutely want to go do some Night Game with you, Cap Hill is one of the most fun places I've ever run game; shenanigans always ensue.

I actually also agree with you on that point as well, I used to actually do BETTER with girls (only in certain ways, Red Pill and Pickup has taught me a wealth of knowledge that's allowed me to do things I never thought I'd be able to do), but certain girls and on certain things (like dates) I really did used to do better when I was younger and DID use statements of empathy and didn't push really, really hard on the first date. Obviously I agree with the other guys saying not allowing myself to come off as weak or a pussy, but like you I've noticed a lack of second dates... I really do feel like it's that lack of empathy and connection building.

Also it's calibration, I was talking to my wing (the guy who films infield for Honest Signalz), and he mentioned that the problem with the RSD mentality and model is that they don't take into account that some women do take a bit more time with certain guys (you can allude this to Chase's points as well, some women will put out fast with certain guys, if you're not that guy it may take you a little more time). I've been screwing more dates up by trying to live by other people's standards, it's time to start living by my own (I'm still taking all of this advice into account and using it, I'm just not gonna be as pushy anymore).

Being afraid that you won't get a second date and have to close on the first is also a form of insecurity that they may be able to see through vs. trying to sleep together on the first date because that's just the way you roll. I unfortunately fall into the former category haha.

 

[Bboy100]

I actually also agree with you on that point as well, I used to actually do BETTER with girls (only in certain ways, Red Pill and Pickup has taught me a wealth of knowledge that's allowed me to do things I never thought I'd be able to do), but certain girls and on certain things (like dates) I really did used to do better when I was younger and DID use statements of empathy and didn't push really, really hard on the first date. Obviously I agree with the other guys saying not allowing myself to come off as weak or a pussy, but like you I've noticed a lack of second dates...

Yeah, and to clarify, I'm not telling you to be a pussy. There's a way to combine the two concepts. When you were young, I'd be more than willing to bet that you did those statements of empathy cause you were afraid. Not because you actually cared how she felt. This is pussy shit. Whereas now, I'm sure any fear you have around escalation is gone. So if you do use a statement of empathy, it will probably be genuine concern for how she feels as opposed to just a way of diminishing your own fears. This is very attractive.

Being afraid that you won't get a second date and have to close on the first is also a form of insecurity that they may be able to see through vs. trying to sleep together on the first date because that's just the way you roll. I unfortunately fall into the former category haha.

If you're like me, this fear stems from all the stuff you've learned in RSD and GC. And while they both have lots of valuable information, I think that this particular cornerstone is absolute bullshit, or at the very least, its waay overemphasized. To get rid of this fear, I would recommend dumping everything the pua community has taught you in regards to moving fast, and being an empiricist. Try moving slower, at a more calibrated pace. This doesn't mean intentionally taking 1000000 dates to sleep with her because that's what society tells us to do. Rather, its just doing your best to pick up on her comfort levels and acting accordingly. Time passed shouldn't be a factor at all. Cause different girls will be ok with moving things forward at different speeds. After you do that, if you still can't get second dates, then maybe the concept of "moving fast" does hold its weight. But my experience has been that it's totally unnecessary given that you display leadership and dominance in other ways. The guys who get "friend-zoned" or for whom "attraction expires" are those who the women can see are actually afraid of escalating and afraid of moving things forward. This is totally different from what strong, but also calibrated men do.

 

[lao che]

I actually also agree with you on that point as well, I used to actually do BETTER with girls (only in certain ways, Red Pill and Pickup has taught me a wealth of knowledge that's allowed me to do things I never thought I'd be able to do), but certain girls and on certain things (like dates) I really did used to do better when I was younger and DID use statements of empathy and didn't push really, really hard on the first date. Obviously I agree with the other guys saying not allowing myself to come off as weak or a pussy, but like you I've noticed a lack of second dates... I really do feel like it's that lack of empathy and connection building.

this is due to congruence. i had similar experiences. although the concepts i was learning made perfect sense to me like, "AHA of course! i've been doing it wrong all this time!" but it still wasn't a part of me. the old me and the new me were still battling it out, and girls will pick up on that.
you still need to make it a part of you. once you get over that hump and really embody the principles you have learned, you will look back and realize how much stronger you are now in every area that matters.

Also it's calibration, I was talking to my wing (the guy who films infield for Honest Signalz), and he mentioned that the problem with the RSD mentality and model is that they don't take into account that some women do take a bit more time with certain guys (you can allude this to Chase's points as well, some women will put out fast with certain guys, if you're not that guy it may take you a little more time). I've been screwing more dates up by trying to live by other people's standards, it's time to start living by my own (I'm still taking all of this advice into account and using it, I'm just not gonna be as pushy anymore).

Being afraid that you won't get a second date and have to close on the first is also a form of insecurity that they may be able to see through vs. trying to sleep together on the first date because that's just the way you roll. I unfortunately fall into the former category haha.

let's be clear. move fast doesn't mean try and rip her pants off as you're walking between bars.
move fast always means, and has always meant, move as fast as your girl will allow. move as fast as she gives you opportunities. she doesn't want to be in the driving seat, but she doesn't want to be thinking "when is this guy gonna invite me home?"
she still wants passive control. or at least, the illusion of it. give her the chance to squeeze the brakes.

the OP did nothing untoward with this girl. he tried to hold her hand and put his arm around her on a public bench.
she didn't run away because he escalated too quickly, she ran because he did it badly

 

[lao che]

i want to add a couple more things, my own personal opinions.

there are several mentions of RSD in this thread, and of following "models" or "modules"

i don't want to ride too long on the negatrain, but i would strongly suggest staying away from RSD. in my limited experience those guys are kinda creepy and off base, i personally don't want to be associated in the same thread, certainly not the same sentence.
e.g "this fear stems from all the stuff you've learned in RSD and GC"


anyway, eclecticism wins the day and we should all try different things, see what works for us. but ultimately, or hopefully sooner rather than later, you need to stop thinking of "models" and develop you own way.

 

[lao che]

double post. curse my clumsy fingers

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Trackrunner,

Ultimately, yes, you will develop your own style that fits your personality.

However I want to argue that the "first date lay" model does more good things for you than just "no need for second date". First, it is very attractive to women. It's one of women's most common fantasies, being taken and submitting to a strong man's will, preferably a total stranger. Second, being able to take a woman to bed within the first couple of hours of ever meeting her, will boost your confidence massively. This confidence will flow into your vibe and increase your success rate. Third, once you're able to pull this consistently, you'll find it easier to get second date lays.

It is definitely a good skill to learn. There is no doubt that it has helped me to skyrocket my success rate in the last year (25 lays in the last ten months). I was myself very surprised how easy it is. All you need is 1. logistics, 2. dating plan, and 3. the will to do it. I bet it's essentially because it's so attractive to women, "being taken by a stranger".

Once you have the skill down, you will have more options. Nowadays I do a mix of first and second date lay, depending on the circumstances, but up to me to decide.

Trackrunner, man, you've now got tons of advice to pick up from, feel free to pick whatever fits you, and try it out!

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

@Bboy, Yeah tbh the only time I've actually ever moved slow and been put into the friend zone was that first time I met a dime piece that I actually went for; while I won't try to overanalyze it I think it was traumatic in the sense that I tend to look at both people and women as "investments" (and did far before I discovered pickup), I spent 6 months on her and barely tried to kiss her, THAT was attraction expiring lol. I think that shook me up and I always try to move fast (which was fine before because I was still fairly classy and calibrated about it). What happened when I got really into pickup was I started getting more insecure about not closing on the first date, resulting in extremely clumsy escalations; I literally just had a girl that was super into me (she's an au pair from South Africa, we made out the first night we met and had been snapchatting quite a bit before, unfortunately then her friends told her all I wanted was sex from her and she told me she's not looking for anything right now), this was probably more of a case of me moving too fast than too slow.

In theory what most of my friends find hard (probably because they don't have access to this community), is GETTING GIRLS OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE, that was always the weird part to me; I somehow got all these girls out but not only could I not close but they didn't even want to go out with me a second time, which I found strange not because I was particularly entitled, but rather the law of numbers should apply here and at some point even guys who are horrific at game get lucky!

I think Seattle in general is lacking in... particularly strong men that move fast, it also has a rather passive aggressive mentality. Sure you can sleep with a girl here on the first night, I've done it plenty of times but what I'm seeing is that mostly social circle game does really well and Pickup does work but guys that specialize in more... indirect game (like does this woman even deserve my dick in her?) i.e. two of my older friends that have really started to "get it", they not only have a much higher closing ratio than me (one is at 100% and one only had one girl turn him down), they aren't' pussies either, I mean they go out with a fair few women, they're just very selective whereas I just take anything above a 7 that I can find (using the logic of practice, but it doesn't help if you're practicing the wrong philosophy for you!). IMO the guys I see succeeding most are... sort of alphas but also not thirsty and typically they have big social circles of women (meaning unlike me they aren't terrified of the friend zone and feeling like you're 2nd place).

I think I fall into Chase's 2nd category of men, that move too fast and are uncalibrated about it, because these two older guys while I wouldn't say they're stereotypical alphas (I don't even mean like the loud jock kind, I mean the kind that are just socially powerful), what they do have in common is they're just themselves and are utterly focused on their ambitions (which is totally different than most of the Seattle crowd). Both of them are heavily selective (almost like they have no damn sex drive I'm not sure how they control that shit so well), and basically they friend zone a ton of girls, one of them is a gentleman but still very successful and the other is a genius social engineer that somehow has large groups of women that he can influence to do stuff for him (not sexually but actually material stuff or work) at any time.

So I think now what I'm going to do is focus more on calibration and being more selective, also I'm gonna start paying for dates again (only if it fits the calibration), I've noticed plenty of women despise guys that pay for them, while plenty despise guys that won't pay, so I'm just gonna start focusing more on my calibration.

What do you guys think of this: most of the successful guys in my area are using the same template (they aren't copying each other I think they've just figured out it works better for them), hanging out 2-3 times before getting her back to a seduction location, almost like friend zoning but they tend to stick to women they know are still attracted to them and then what they do is kind of.... indirectly flirt mostly? I'm not really sure but being simple and direct hasn't worked very well for me here (other than bar pickup).

It's killing me that I can't seem to get above an 8... like I can get super hot girls out sometimes but I was just missing a piece, I think this might be it. Going to go out and try it (and of course I won't miss any escalation windows because I'm not afraid anymore ).