Help with getting her back, plan of attack

[mike_milwaukee]

Hi all,

I need a little bit of tactics advice on my next moves and chances on this one. Let me say it myself first, I have a huge idiot and would really like a second chance.

A bit of background information first though:

Basic: She is 32, I am 33, no children.

About 1.5 years ago I met this girl and we quickly fell in love and engaged in a relationship together. It is not all sweetness and light though, because when I met her, honestly I was not completely over my ex through 13 years, with whom I had just broken up with 6 months earlier, she left me, cheating and everything, all in all, a horrible story, but I am however fine with it today, and actually we find good support in each other. More on the effects of this below.

With my new girl, everything was great the first months (Dec-13 to May-14), we were in love, and all was rosy. We traveled together and wined and dined a lot. Great sex too. The “not being over” the ex thing, kept haunting me though, I made the huge mistake of still talking to her, she wanted me back, and I sort of let her linger in my life and mind for too long. I never did go back to her though. Unfortunately I let this “haunting” cloud my current relationship, I was constantly doubting if she was right for me, which caused me to stall the relationship. Unconsciously, I said and did things that made her feel my doubts, which I know is the last thing a girl wants in a new boyfriend - as I said, I am an idiot!

We lived together in her small apartment full on from Jun-14, but she wanted us to find a place together, which she pushed me for, for several months, but I was not quite ready, I just needed some time with her, uncomplicated and fun (but still serious though). We finally signed up for an apartment in Dec-14, but I did not really do it because I wanted it, more because I felt unsure and pressured, and finally this pressure became too much and I cancelled the apartment a month later (due for move-in in April-15). Of course this ruined the relationship, one month later I called it off. I did not really want to do this, but because of pressure and feeling cornered I felt I had to.

Then I made the huge mistake of letting her convince me to stay in the apartment, because I did not have my own place at the time. We should have parted, let things cool down, but no. She would just stay at her sister, but as it turned out, we were living there together, more or less as a couple for the next 4 months, and I felt our communication got better, and I actually started to feel a lot more comfortable with the whole situation, however we never really addressed the elefant in the room, and just kept pursuing new places separately, she bought an apartment and I rented a place. Come moving day, we both felt that this was a huge mistake, however we had to followthrough, but we agreed to stay in contact for another month, and try and fix it and move on together. This went great for the first 2-3 weeks, we met up a bunch of times, had sex, talked on the phone everyday, and we basically both felt that we should just talk about the practicalities, and move on together. My feelings of uncertainty towards her are completely gone, and I don’t doubt for one second that I want to marry this girl and spend my life with her.

Then, about 2,5 weeks ago, she called me and told me that she wanted to be honest with me, she had started thinking back on our relationship, and was wondering whether we were actually compatible or not. Just 4 days earlier, she told me how much she loved me, and I felt everything was fine, and we were just about to embark on a wonderful life journey together, so this came as a big shock to me. Basically, she had never really reflected on how I hurt her 5-6 months ago, and these emotions came to her now, as she had made an effort to move on, and this made her doubt if she should embark on it once again, fearing to be hurt again. As I see it, I am the person who feels my way forward, where she jumps right in, and only now is starting to think and reflect about how I hurt her earlier in our relationship. I thought she was clear in her mind, that is what she told me she felt all along, but apparently no. Had I known this, I would have reacted earlier of course, but I thought we had moved on from that.

In these last 2 weeks, I have of course been upset and did what I know you shouldn’t do, putting pressure on her, bought her big gifts and flowers, texts and emails, not in obscene or crazy amounts, but I thought I could reassure her that my feelings are sincere with her, and that I would never do anything to hurt her again. This of course drove her further away, to the point where she needs space. I can tell she is emotionally stressed, and feeling unsecure about herself, so now I am trying to give her that space, but my god it is hard!

Yesterday, I saw her for the last time, at least for now, I had given her some expensive diamond-earrings in a stupid attempt to make her happy and forgive me, which she said she could not receive in her current state. She wanted to return them, so I went over and picked them up. We talked for 15-20 minutes, completely calm, I told her how much I loved her, and how I would never hurt her again. We hugged lovingly, and she told me that “it will be okay again, I think” and “I just need some time”, I told her that I would hold on to the earrings because I really wanted her to have them, and she smiled.
Earlier yesterday, I sent one final email I had prepared over the last two days, in line with the advice in the “How to Get Your Girlfriend Back” post on GC, where I categorised her as a “#1: Screw You, Jerk!” type. Basically letting her know how I know I had stalled and hurt her feelings, but thought we were just about to realise all the things she had wanted all along, marriage, children and house, which I feel ready for now. As previously mentioned, there is no doubt in my mind that I want to spend my life with this girl, and I deeply regret my actions or lack thereof. The first thing she told me when I met here yesterday was that she had read my email, but I am not sure what to make of that.

So, I guess we are not together now, she still has me listed as in a relationship with me on Facebook, and when I asked her what I should do, she told me that she did not want to hold me back, she just needed to fix herself and needed time. Technically we are in NC mode right now I guess and it is very hard, being the person that don’t believe in no communication to solve anything.

So on to my questions, what to do next? I know I need to give her space, but how long?, How should I take her signals?, Is it dead and is she just using the “I need time” as an excuse not to hurt my feelings? Basically I need help with a plan of attack?
She has been very sad, almost to the point of depressed these last couple of weeks because of this, so I was thinking to write her a casual text this friday, or the beginning of next week, simply asking how she was feeling, and that I hoped she felt better. Not mentioning anything about us, and not pressuring her in any way, but simply show her that I care, and then see what she responds to that… stupid?

I really hope you guys can help me get this wonderful girl back, I have been a big idiot, and I really want her and I to be happy together again. If I have left out any important information please ask.

Thanks a million - I really want to make this work!

Best Regards

Michael

 

[Drck]

Hi Michael,

I'll try to give you couple of points that I consider important, hopefully somebody else will give you their opinion as well. I'm going to try to avoid popular answers such as "NEXT" and "move on" that many guys here would give you, but it is rather a quick response. Otherwise I would have to write 100 pages, LOL:

"she (wife) left me, cheating and everything, all in all, a horrible story"

>>>> In general, when women don't see much value in a man they disrespect him. Low value man is a man who is too compliant, too hesitant, too indecisive, too codependent and needy, and so on. He has weaker frame than that woman, i.g. she is more dominant. He can't walk away from her easily. High(er) value man is a man who is decisive, leading, who makes important decisions and stands his ground no matter what. If she doesn't comply with his demand he walks away from her. His frame is stronger, he is more dominant.


"The “not being over” the ex thing, kept haunting me though, I made the huge mistake of still talking to her, she (wife) wanted me back"

>>>> You should never go back to women that cheated on you or already disrespected you in some way. In her eyes, you already have half value of a man than you should, and if you come back your value as a man will only drop even lower. She already disrespected you, and the chances that she will do it again are high. Not only that, because you made this mistake you also lost some trust with your current GF. So you basically screwed yourself twice, but the good thing is that you already know it. So if you simply NEXTed your wife you would be much better off today.

"We lived together in her small apartment full on from Jun-14, but she wanted us to find a place together, which she pushed me for, for several months, but I was not quite ready, I just needed some time with her, uncomplicated and fun (but still serious though). We finally signed up for an apartment in Dec-14, but I did not really do ... Then I made the huge mistake of letting her convince me to stay in the apartment"

>>>> IMO the problem is that you let women manipulate you into what they want very easily. You do things for them that you don't want to do. That is no good. By doing this you are losing your value as a man - which already caused you your previous marriage, it may cause you this current relationship, and it may cause you any future relationships...

Learn to to be more leading: Any big decision must be your way, not her way. You decide where to go and when, not her. Women look up to man who keeps his ground, who stands behind what he believes and wants. Women, regardless what they say, seek leaders because they are naturally more submissive. Women disrespect guys who give in to what women wants. When you look back at your marriage, I bet you will find out many occasions where you cave in into her demands. Exactly, that is the root problem. That is why she was eventually cheating on you, she saw your value as a man quite low.

You need to change it, learn make the major decisions - don't let the woman do it. If you don't change your behavior, chances are that this current girl will do the same: over time, as you will be caving in more and more, she will also be disrespecting you more and more. What's worse, she already know that you were disrespected by another women, thus she knows that you are very compliant to women's demands... That is to your disadvantage, and it is possible that she is aware of it, thus she is hesitant about your relationship...

"about 2,5 weeks ago, she called me and told me that she wanted to be honest with me, she had started thinking back on our relationship, and was wondering whether we were actually compatible or not. Just 4 days earlier, she told me how much she loved me"

>>>> Yes. One day she is sure, the other day she is hesitant. It may be a shit test or it may be how she really feels. Or both. So again, a man who is not in charge will be basically mirroring her moods: One day he will feel great because she is sure, and couple days after he will be all anxious, waiting for how she feels and reacts... So you have to be more leading, more in charge: Yes, you are sure that this will work out, there is no hesitation, this is the way it will happen (that's your frame, you decided and you gonna keep your ground, and you don't cave to her 'hesitant' frame)

"Basically, she had never really reflected on how I hurt her 5-6 months ago, and these emotions came to her now, as she had made an effort to move on, and this made her doubt if she should embark on it once again, fearing to be hurt again."

>>>> The best would be to discuss it with your current GF< you need to bring back her trust. Bring it up and talk about it. Say that you made a mistake and that it will never happen again. Promise if you have to, and make sure you keep that promise. Your wife is gone, forever, there is no coming back. Make that your frame that nobody (including yourself) will never change...

"In these last 2 weeks, I have of course been upset and did what I know you shouldn’t do, putting pressure on her, bought her big gifts and flowers, texts and emails, not in obscene or crazy amounts, but I thought I could reassure her that my feelings are sincere with her, and that I would never do anything to hurt her again. This of course drove her further away, to the point where she needs space. I can tell she is emotionally stressed, and feeling insecure about herself, so now I am trying to give her that space, but my god it is hard"

>>>> Damn, I could use 50 pages just to address this issue. So simply: You don't get upset. You don't put pressure on her. You don't buy her a gift. You don't overflow her with texts and emails. That is all "beta" and co-dependent behavior, you are telling her that you need her, you are trying to 'buy' her with gifts and feelings, you are chasing her.... You are displaying to her that you are needy and insecure, and girls hate that. Of course that that will drive her further away, no sane woman wants to deal with that. She feels insecure about herself because she mirrors you, she is just reflecting your insecurity... Try to correct your attitude: You WANT this girl but you don't NEED her. You will do everything to keep the relationship work, but you will NEVER chase her...

"Yesterday, I saw her for the last time, at least for now, I had given her some expensive diamond-earrings in a stupid attempt to make her happy and forgive me"

>>>> Damn! Here is a ring, now love me woman! It doesn't work like that...

"We talked for 15-20 minutes, completely calm, I told her how much I loved her, and how I would never hurt her again. We hugged lovingly, and she told me that “it will be okay again, I think” and “I just need some time” "

>>>> Damn! Here is my "I love you", now love me back woman! It doesn't work like that either. Again, you are displaying neediness and insecurity. If you want to see this girl again you need to stop this behavior...

"The first thing she told me when I met here yesterday was that she had read my email, but I am not sure what to make of that."

>>>> You know, in my opinion, she is now considering your behavior. She is looking at you who is on one side a great guy, but on the other who is also needy and insecure. She loves you as a person, but she doesn't like the insecurity and neediness. Girls are seeking more dominant males (no matter what they say). She wants to know that if there is some problem she can rely upon her man. She needs to know that that man will stand up and protect her, provide for her, take care of her and her children when she needs to. She is most likely thinking: If he is caving in to a woman with such an ease, how is he going to deal with some danger, how is he going to stand up to some potential male threat, or how is he going to deal with some difficult situations overall?

"and when I asked her what I should do, she told me that she did not want to hold me back, she just needed to fix herself and needed time."

>>>> See, the same issue. You are asking her what to do, you are giving her the leading and deciding position. Normal women don't want to lead, they don't want to be in charge. Normal woman are more passive, more submissive, thus they are looking for a guy who can lead, who can make decisions. Who knows and says what to do...

Man, I want to help you, so I hope you don't consider this as too harsh. Try to learn to be more leading and decisive, otherwise you will have problems with every woman. They may love you as this girl, but they won't respect you much because of the neediness, insecurity and codependency.

How to fix it? Honestly I don't know, the simplest and usually the best way from point of view of seduction is to NEXT her, which obviously you are not willing to do. She does need space, and you trying to "fix" it will make it only worse because anything that you'll do may be easily perceived as neediness, chasing... Personally, I would try something like this:

* Give her some space, couple of days. At least 7, and if you think that is too much, do 9. Hopefully she will contact you first.
* After that, text her and call her minimally. If she is not responding she needs more space. Don't chase. Mirror her effort: If she writes 2 sentences, write 2 sentences. If she doesn't respond 1 day, give it a day before you call back. If she is responding and talking, good, move forward, you can text/call as usually
* Take her to some place that YOU chose. Don't ask her if she wants to go or where, just take her there. Tell her it is a surprise. Weekend trip would be nice.
* Don't try to "fix" anything. It is done, you don't touch it, you don't explain yourself, you don't discuss it, make it a history. It's gone, you don't remember anything. The only thing to fix is the discussion about your ex, that you made a mistake (as written above), this way she'll know that you are aware of that issue and that you are willing to change it. And this can wait another 2-3 weeks, if she loves you she is partially over it anyway
* Focus on the future. Discuss future, don't discuss past. Discuss in clever way what will happen in the future, paint a picture for her in which you will be leading and deciding. Just don't be too obvious, duh. Shift yourself into a leading position, that is your new frame.

Once she's in a good mood: "Hey, I really like that X city, I'm applying for a job there, and if I'll get it we'll have to move". She: "I don't know, maybe, there is not much to do in there". You: "The job will be great, I'm doing my best to get it. It will be easy for you to transfer your job over there too, blah blah, they also have this great restaurant you love. As a matter of fact, let's take a trip there this weekend, maybe we can see what apartment would be good for us"... You got to be persistent, it won't happen overnight but in couple of weeks you might have a good new and leading frame...

Note that it may not work. Once the girl decides that the guy is gone, there is not much he can do. None of the guys here was able to crack that one yet... Note that NEXT is still probably a better solution...

 

[mike_milwaukee]

Alright, so heres an update from me, still need advice to continue though.

I sent her a text friday last week, just letting her know that I had been thinking a lot about her during the week, and was wondering how she was. I got no reply all weekend, but then late last night, she texted me, letting me know that she had been thinking a lot, also on me. She did not want me to worry about her, she is okay under the circumstances, and is really doing what she can to feel better about herself and get to a better place. She really stressed in the text that she was thinking a lot about us. So I waited a good hour before I wrote her back, telling her that I was happy to hear from her and the I really hoped she would feel better soon, no reply yet.

It's nothing major, but nevertheless a small breakthrough. She still has us listed in a relationship on facebook.

I hope to hear again from her within the next day or so, and hopefully be able to get more of a conversation going.

Any advice from here are very welcome.

 

[mike_milwaukee]

Alright, news again, and this time I would really like to hear peoples opinion and possible actions to take.

So we've been on the phone now twice, last friday and again yesterday. Both times she called me and both times the duration was about 2 hours, talking about this whole thing, not ideal I know, but that is what she wants to talk about. First time she was really in a mode of seeing all the bad in our relationship, however the second time, yesterday, she seemed a bit more open.

She is still seeing the psychiatrist, but he is only helping her with her inability to set boundaries for herself, not trying to judge or decide whether we should be together or not. This is what is troubling her, she says she loves me, thinks about me just as much as I do her, but "something" is holding her back from taking that final leap. She has made this into a big mental block, and she seeks advice from all of her friends and family, with various responses depending on the friend or family member. Her biggest influence is her twin sister who has made a conscious decision not to advice her, she does have a tremendous influence on her, but I know it is for the best. She has to make the decision on her own. Some friends say: do what feels right, others say no: too much has happened. I hate that she seems so influenced by other peoples opinion, it is almost as she makes this the biggest decision of her life, whereas I try to comfort her, and tell her she should do what feels right and affirm her that I am really serious about committing and wanting to spend my life with her. She says that she is sorry to put me in this limbo, but she is afraid that things will repeat themselves in 6 months and on the flipside, that she is letting go of the love of her life.

These last two weeks I have actually been seeing a couples-counsellor to get a better understanding of what she is going through and better understand how I should respond to this, in other words, actually putting action behind my promise of change. The way I see it, I hope to put this to use with her, but if she decides she wants to continue on her own, then at least I have learned something new that I can apply sometime in the future.

I can feel she is somewhat opening up, but still quite honest about the fact that she needs space and time, contact only on her premises. She is very clear on the fact that she is focusing on herself, and has no room for me. She has made it quite clear to me that she does not want me to do any more romantic gestures, as she does not want me to get bitter, if she decides to move on, on her own. Very honest statement I think. I did send a few texts this last week, completely open, no response required and only to make her happy. This did not seem to bother her when we talked yesterday, but I know I should not overdo it.

The thing is that she is going on vacation in a week from now, 3 weeks total, we will talk at least one time before she leaves I think. I asked if we could meet, nothing fancy, but she is afraid it will influence her, but did not seem to completely disregard the idea. I think the chance of this is slim though. What bothers me the most about this vacation, is that she will spend time with some of her best friends, and will definitely seek their advice, which I am almost certain will be negative. What we did agree on though, is that after this vacation, something needs to be decided, for the sake of both her and I. Again, I hate that she sort of delegates the decision to others, instead of doing what she feels is right.

So what to do from here? I am not really sure if I can do anything more, except just try and affirm her and hang on for the ride. I know I risk getting really hurt in a month from now, but I guess that is the chance you take for love.

Any comments or advice is really appreciated.

 

[mike_milwaukee]

You will prob be pissed when you read this, but that's ok with me.

Not at all, I appreciate your comment. I don't fully agree, and while that might make you think that I have the world to learn, I just don't think the world is that clear cut and as simple as "be a man!". Each to their own I guess, but thanks for your comment though, definitely worth a read!

 

[trashKENNUT]

She's going thru some issues and you guys are too similar. Eventually, you both will leave or stay together with third parties involve, i presume.

Time will tell.

Zac