Hitting a woman

[pks391]

Hey Guys,
Recently my friends told me that in order to keep a woman from misbehaving to a high level, some amount of physical dominance over her is necessary. They also told me that if a girl(your wife or gf) misbehaves in a very bad manner or cheats on you then striking/hitting/physically hurting her is called for.
Now i absolutely loathe the idea of doing something like that, but this thing is making me think a lot. I never struck a girl neither do i want to. But my question to you guys is whether such a thing is necessary or required or even considerable in a relationship? They keep putting this negative idea in my mind that if i don't exercise control over my girl in the above manner, she will never respect me/she will continue to misbehave. Is this true?

 

[trashKENNUT]

Throw biscuits at them.

p.s: When you ask this kind of questions, expect some level of "whiteknight" despite most man here or anywhere, being good with women. I am going to lose friends here but it is a funny thing. It is a belief system, where i am on top of mountain A and you are moutain B, and because i built that mountain, i am lazy to go to your mountain to see the whole view.

but i am learning how the world works, everyday! I try to know why people whiteknight even myself though it annoys me. I like to learn the "morals view" and the "AS IT IS" view.

Zac

 

[Franco]

pks391,

The biggest thing to understand about wanting to "hit" a woman is that it comes from feeling like you have a lack of control over her, so the only thing that you rationalize you can do is use your physical strength as a member of the male gender to assert dominance over her. But that's not what our strength as a male is for -- our strength as a male (at a historical and biological level) is used to combat other males to protect women (and children). Using your obvious strength advantage to assert dominance over women is just revealing that your weakness is being unable to control them with your words and your guidance, which is what they really want and need.

Learn to communicate with women when they are getting emotional about something; whenever women get emotional toward you, it's usually because of something they feel like you have or haven't done (and often times it's just a misunderstanding, but she wants to hear that from you). Hitting a woman in this scenario just shows her that you don't really care about her or her concerns, and it instills "fear" in her rather than "love" or "excitement." As a woman, she should never have to fear her own man's physical strength being used against her.

- Franco

 

[pks391]

Throw biscuits at them.

p.s: When you ask this kind of questions, expect some level of "whiteknight" despite most man here or anywhere, being good with women. I am going to lose friends here but it is a funny thing. It is a belief system, where i am on top of mountain A and you are moutain B, and because i built that mountain, i am lazy to go to your mountain to see the whole view.

but i am learning how the world works, everyday! I try to know why people whiteknight even myself though it annoys me. I like to learn the "morals view" and the "AS IT IS" view.

Zac

It's ok Zac, even I have a bit of Whiteknight too.

 

[pks391]

pks391,

The biggest thing to understand about wanting to "hit" a woman is that it comes from feeling like you have a lack of control over her, so the only thing that you rationalize you can do is use your physical strength as a member of the male gender to assert dominance over her. But that's not what our strength as a male is for -- our strength as a male (at a historical and biological level) is used to combat other males to protect women (and children). Using your obvious strength advantage to assert dominance over women is just revealing that your weakness is being unable to control them with your words and your guidance, which is what they really want and need.

Learn to communicate with women when they are getting emotional about something; whenever women get emotional toward you, it's usually because of something they feel like you have or haven't done (and often times it's just a misunderstanding, but she wants to hear that from you). Hitting a woman in this scenario just shows her that you don't really care about her or her concerns, and it instills "fear" in her rather than "love" or "excitement." As a woman, she should never have to fear her own man's physical strength being used against her.

- Franco

Hey Franco,
I get that entirely. These people are making me doubt my beliefs and trying to assert theirs on me. They keep telling me that there are certain situations in life where it is useful to hit a woman or she wont stop misbehaving. Its causing an error loop in my head.

 

[Drck]

I believe you might be right, but only in certain situations - not all women and not all situations. It is similar with children, they misbehave, they don't pay attention, they disrespect - it used to be the way that grandma or parents slapped the child and problem was solved right there...

We live in different age though, because of the law you might be easily accused of not only physical abuse but also emotional.. perhaps you can even go to jail... Today people want to discuss, analyze, solve by therapy... and the result usually is only more disrespect, more misbehaving, more problems... It's a nonsense, I don't agree with that, but law is law...

I never hit woman, but my close relative did. She was talking crap about him, so he simply slapped her in front of other people. Problem was solved right there. If it was today though, he would most likely go to jail or would be slapped back with huge fine....

 

[pks391]

I believe you might be right, but only in certain situations - not all women and not all situations. It is similar with children, they misbehave, they don't pay attention, they disrespect - it used to be the way that grandma or parents slapped the child and problem was solved right there...

We live in different age though, because of the law you might be easily accused of not only physical abuse but also emotional.. perhaps you can even go to jail... Today people want to discuss, analyze, solve by therapy... and the result usually is only more disrespect, more misbehaving, more problems... It's a nonsense, I don't agree with that, but law is law...

I never hit woman, but my close relative did. She was talking crap about him, so he simply slapped her in front of other people. Problem was solved right there. If it was today though, he would most likely go to jail or would be slapped back with huge fine....

But in the end, Drck, how can a man stop further disrespect from a girl without having to resort to physical dominance?

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391.

But in the end, Drck, how can a man stop further disrespect from a girl without having to resort to physical dominance?

I like to go indepth But i will send my response to Franco on what i think. He will assess it. Things like this can be very sticky and while i am "right", there are just some things people cannot handle and this is Chase's website.

I am not the worse "politically incorrect" person but it is funny how society misconstrued when the facts are there, and i see this everywhere. If there is a worse person than a feminist, it is the illusion of numbers by the mainstream, which they are good at portraying.

Zac

 

[pks391]

pks391.

But in the end, Drck, how can a man stop further disrespect from a girl without having to resort to physical dominance?

I like to go indepth But i will send my response to Franco on what i think. He will assess it. Things like this can be very sticky and while i am "right", there are just some things people cannot handle and this is Chase's website.

I am not the worse "politically incorrect" person but it is funny how society misconstrued when the facts are there, and i see this everywhere. If there is a worse person than a feminist, it is the illusion of numbers by the mainstream, which they are good at portraying.

Zac

You are quite right Zac, its the numerous mainstream members of society.
I look forward to your views, if passed .........

 

[Chase]

PKS-

There's an interesting comment by Sean Connery on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0d1zTAFKA

One of the reasons it seems to happen is women are typically better communicators than men are, and will sometimes verbally box men into corners that the men know they shouldn't be in. Because the man is unable to express why the woman is wrong, he becomes increasingly angered at her pestering/obstinacy and eventually resorts to smacking her (the reverse occurs when you have women hitting men much of the time too - the guy's being a dick and the woman is at a loss to express herself or feels like nothing she says is getting through to him).

I tend to date pretty rational, educated women, I'm a pretty darn good communicator, and I've adopted women's argumentation methods well enough that at this point I can beat them at their own game, so I've never had nor desired to raise a hand to a woman. If I ever had a girl absolutely losing her shit and it was necessary for her to calm down at once (say, we were in some kind of dangerous situation), though, and the situation demanded it, I would not hesitate. However, it's been my experience that when a woman's absolutely losing her shit and not listening, all I have to do is get really angry and tell her to calm the fuck down right now, and seeing a normally-always calm guy switch into borderline rage mode is enough to make them suddenly want to have a reasonable discussion. I can't say I've ever been in a situation where slapping a woman was warranted. Most of the times men do this seem to be when the man himself feels too personally embattled and simply lashes out to stop the ego beating a woman is giving him.

One big mistake a lot of men make is once the woman has calmed down, they feel the need to reassert dominance, so start telling her she was wrong (instead of listening to her side of the argument), which prompts her right back into the attack again. It seems like this is where a lot of the hitting that does occur occurs. The woman prompts it by cornering the man, but the man prompts the cornering by egging her on instead of talking rationally when she dials it down and is open to this. The right way to proceed if she's just calmed down from flipping out is to say, "All right. Now can you rationally explain your position to me? If so, I will listen. If not, I don't want to hear it."

I suspect for many men, who suck at communication compared to women, this isn't as much of an option: they aren't going to bother to learn communication as well as women (who have a larger part of their brain devoted to it, on average), but they're still going to know when a woman is using her verbal prowess in an abusive, slanderous, and manipulative way (typically because she's angry at you for something, or sexually frustrated). So they respond almost unconsciously by just lashing out when they reach a certain threshold of being cornered and embattled too far.

You're in India, and it's been my experience Indian men from India in general are not the best communicators and are extremely reliant upon hierarchy. e.g., an American style of consensus-based leadership is confusing and bizarre to Indian employees, who are used to top-down leadership. Indian bosses don't take nearly as well to push back or criticism from inferiors. This seems to translate to relationships as well. Indian men are less inclined to want to deal with an uppity woman because they expect her to respect the hierarchy. A slap or a beating is one way to enforce that hierarchy, when words fail. I imagine that's why they're telling you sometimes this is needed.

Chase

 

[pks391]

PKS-

There's an interesting comment by Sean Connery on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0d1zTAFKA

One of the reasons it seems to happen is women are typically better communicators than men are, and will sometimes verbally box men into corners that the men know they shouldn't be in. Because the man is unable to express why the woman is wrong, he becomes increasingly angered at her pestering/obstinacy and eventually resorts to smacking her (the reverse occurs when you have women hitting men much of the time too - the guy's being a dick and the woman is at a loss to express herself or feels like nothing she says is getting through to him).

I tend to date pretty rational, educated women, I'm a pretty darn good communicator, and I've adopted women's argumentation methods well enough that at this point I can beat them at their own game, so I've never had nor desired to raise a hand to a woman. If I ever had a girl absolutely losing her shit and it was necessary for her to calm down at once (say, we were in some kind of dangerous situation), though, and the situation demanded it, I would not hesitate. However, it's been my experience that when a woman's absolutely losing her shit and not listening, all I have to do is get really angry and tell her to calm the fuck down right now, and seeing a normally-always calm guy switch into borderline rage mode is enough to make them suddenly want to have a reasonable discussion. I can't say I've ever been in a situation where slapping a woman was warranted. Most of the times men do this seem to be when the man himself feels too personally embattled and simply lashes out to stop the ego beating a woman is giving him.

One big mistake a lot of men make is once the woman has calmed down, they feel the need to reassert dominance, so start telling her she was wrong (instead of listening to her side of the argument), which prompts her right back into the attack again. It seems like this is where a lot of the hitting that does occur occurs. The woman prompts it by cornering the man, but the man prompts the cornering by egging her on instead of talking rationally when she dials it down and is open to this. The right way to proceed if she's just calmed down from flipping out is to say, "All right. Now can you rationally explain your position to me? If so, I will listen. If not, I don't want to hear it."

I suspect for many men, who suck at communication compared to women, this isn't as much of an option: they aren't going to bother to learn communication as well as women (who have a larger part of their brain devoted to it, on average), but they're still going to know when a woman is using her verbal prowess in an abusive, slanderous, and manipulative way (typically because she's angry at you for something, or sexually frustrated). So they respond almost unconsciously by just lashing out when they reach a certain threshold of being cornered and embattled too far.

You're in India, and it's been my experience Indian men from India in general are not the best communicators and are extremely reliant upon hierarchy. e.g., an American style of consensus-based leadership is confusing and bizarre to Indian employees, who are used to top-down leadership. Indian bosses don't take nearly as well to push back or criticism from inferiors. This seems to translate to relationships as well. Indian men are less inclined to want to deal with an uppity woman because they expect her to respect the hierarchy. A slap or a beating is one way to enforce that hierarchy, when words fail. I imagine that's why they're telling you sometimes this is needed.

Chase

Chase,
Thank you for your patient reply.
You said

If I ever had a girl absolutely losing her shit and it was necessary for her to calm down at once (say, we were in some kind of dangerous situation), though, and the situation demanded it, I would not hesitate. However, it's been my experience that when a woman's absolutely losing her shit and not listening, all I have to do is get really angry and tell her to calm the fuck down right now, and seeing a normally-always calm guy switch into borderline rage mode is enough to make them suddenly want to have a reasonable discussion.

but in your article on how to deal with angry women you advised us never to get angry at a woman back, either show her the door or leave, so what exactly did you mean by not hesitating and showing her your borderline rage mode? And when is it really warranted for me to show my temper to a woman or to hit her?

 

[Franco]

pks391,

but in your article on how to deal with angry women you advised us never to get angry at a woman back, either show her the door or leave, so what exactly did you mean by not hesitating and showing her your borderline rage mode?

Chase has multiple articles on this, but he also clarifies the "anger/no anger" dilemma in this article below:

• Fighting in Relationships: Causes and Cures

Make sure to check out the very bottom of the article where he links to a comment I left about the confusion between when to get emotional and when not to get emotional.

And when is it really warranted for me to show my temper to a woman or to hit her?

In my experience, there's still no reason to ever really hit her. Even in the worst battles between you and a significant other, all you have to do is kick her out of your home (or leave hers) and go radio silent for awhile. This is the absolute last resort though, and it's only if (1) you've raised your voice and yelled at her to try to get her to calm down and (2) her anger is completely out of control and irrational to the point of ridiculousness.

Leaving her without your attention for a small period of time (even a few days if necessary) is enough to make her want to apologize for behavior. If she doesn't feel like apologizing (or she doesn't care about the fact that you're not there), then you've got bigger problems to worry about because it means you haven't managed the relationship well enough and she doesn't love and/or respect you (anymore).

- Franco

 

[trashKENNUT]

pks391,

- Ask her to get out
- Spray water at her
- Throw biscuits at her

and so on. Don't forget to lock your important stuff before going on your water rampage spree. On a serious note, if you ever have a women who is "nuts", and if you want to slap her, you know my answer by now. BUT here's why she goes to that point.

1)Narcissism/Attitude problem
2)Education
3)Family
4)Mother
5)Father figure/"Pillar"

Go this by number 1 to 5, i guarantee it has something somewhere between those number 1 to 5.

Prevention:

SCREENING. Seems small but i would not want to mention some relationships here (that is being noted by someone respected) is going to be disastrous.

Zac

 

[pks391]

pks391,

- Ask her to get out
- Spray water at her
- Throw biscuits at her

and so on. Don't forget to lock your important stuff before going on your water rampage spree. On a serious note, if you ever have a women who is "nuts", and if you want to slap her, you know my answer by now. BUT here's why she goes to that point.

1)Narcissism/Attitude problem
2)Education
3)Family
4)Mother
5)Father figure/"Pillar"

Go this by number 1 to 5, i guarantee it has something somewhere between those number 1 to 5.

Prevention:

SCREENING. Seems small but i would not want to mention some relationships here (that is being noted by someone respected) is going to be disastrous.

Zac

Zac
I agree with you on nos 1 to 5 and about screening, but you know that this is life and it keeps throwing you curve balls. So you need to be ready if any sort of situation like this is warranted.

 

[trashKENNUT]

what you mean by that? you mean it can start from any number?

 

[pks391]

what you mean by that? you mean it can start from any number?

No I meant that i agreed that all the factors are equally influential to make a girl that way

 

[pks391]

pks391,

but in your article on how to deal with angry women you advised us never to get angry at a woman back, either show her the door or leave, so what exactly did you mean by not hesitating and showing her your borderline rage mode?

Chase has multiple articles on this, but he also clarifies the "anger/no anger" dilemma in this article below:

• Fighting in Relationships: Causes and Cures

Make sure to check out the very bottom of the article where he links to a comment I left about the confusion between when to get emotional and when not to get emotional.

And when is it really warranted for me to show my temper to a woman or to hit her?

In my experience, there's still no reason to ever really hit her. Even in the worst battles between you and a significant other, all you have to do is kick her out of your home (or leave hers) and go radio silent for awhile. This is the absolute last resort though, and it's only if (1) you've raised your voice and yelled at her to try to get her to calm down and (2) her anger is completely out of control and irrational to the point of ridiculousness.

Leaving her without your attention for a small period of time (even a few days if necessary) is enough to make her want to apologize for behavior. If she doesn't feel like apologizing (or she doesn't care about the fact that you're not there), then you've got bigger problems to worry about because it means you haven't managed the relationship well enough and she doesn't love and/or respect you (anymore).

- Franco

Franco,
Thanks for the reference, i read it, its a lot more clear to me now.

 

[ray_zorse]

Interesting.

Another thing I would add is that if strong argument is occurring and/or the kind of levels of frustration that might lead to violence (or losing your shit in some way) then codependence and/or scarcity is probably at the heart of the matter.

As an example whilst married I would get so damn frustrated with my wife's behaviour because it was the exact opposite of how I envisaged a relationship or a wife to be. So much so that I would fly into a rage, go purple in the face, yell at her, break things etc.

In a different relationship there was an incident where I threw the bong across the room in response to a hurtful remark by my girl when I was trying to be vulnerable and ask about problems in our sex life -- I have come to see that whilst I have never raised a hand against a woman this kind of behaviour is quite scary to a woman and she could easily be excused for thinking I might really lose it next time and hurt her.

With the benefit of perspective and the extensive work I have done on my codependence and scarcity issues, it is easy to reinterpret what was really going on in my mind at the time: I was committed to the relationship yet the relationship was not meeting my needs. So my only option, as I saw it then, was to MOULD the relationship to fit my needs. Gradually losing hope on this front was what led to me getting so frustrated I lost my shit, I somehow thought if I yelled hard enough it would drive the point home to her and get her to change her behaviour. This whole mindset was totally codependent. Why did I not just walk away? Because I thought if I did that I would spend another 5-10yrs lonely and not getting sex. That whole mindset was totally scarcity.

Now that I understand the issue I will obviously never have the same kinds of problems, how I handle the same kind of issues now is (1) I accept her for herself and the relationship for what it is -- not what I'd hoped she/it would become (2) instead of moulding I would basically take a cost/benefit approach, do I enjoy the relationship enough to stay in it despite its imperfections (3) I avoid any kind of similar issue from ever coming up by always setting firm, appropriate boundaries, grounded in MY OWN BEHAVIOUR AND DECISIONS, things that I can change as opposed to hers that I cannot.

As an example a few months back I arranged a swimming trip with my kids and my girl after school as a treat on the last day of term. I had a complicated series of appointments and errands to do first, and I discussed the plan carefully with her. She wanted to be picked up from uni at a certain time but cutting a long story short she wasn't in the appointed place at the appointed time, this made me a bit angry as I had clearly explained the time pressures we were under and I had texted her progress reports "Leaving XX now be XX minutes" and "I am now XX minutes away please be waiting at street level".

She wanted me to wait while she finished helping her friend in the library so I texted back "I will leave at XX:XX for the school pickup". And then I stuck to it -- at exactly that time, left without her. Old codependent me would have allowed her to mess up my routine and embarrass me with the school (late pickup is absolutely unacceptable) and then yelled at her later for not respecting me, etc -- which she clearly didn't. New me remained calm throughout. And, because I set a clear boundary she respected me a lot more -- was very contrite and I helped her get a bus to the pool where she arrived in good time. Although I felt disrespected I didn't bother to discuss with her, there was no need due to my clear boundary setting.

Keeping these principles in mind I can't see how I would ever be able to lose my shit at a woman in future, there's just no need. In any case having to do cooperative parenting whilst an Intervention Order was in place for 2yrs or so (due to which merely raising my voice could have sent me to jail, whereas there were no restrictions on my ex-wife's behaviour and she used to do her absolute best to get me to lose my shit every time)... made me take a pretty hard look at myself and grow up and take responsibility for my decisions and behaviour. When my ex figured out that nothing she could possibly do, no matter how outrageous, would ever make me lose my shit, she quit trying it on and has treated me very respectfully ever since.

So my advice to pks and others is: Be a rock. Be imperturbable. And if you should temporarily go backward from this, you will probably find the reasons in the above. Address the problem at its causes: Lots of approaching, good relationship management, firm boundaries, etc. Never lash out.

Ray

 

[trashKENNUT]

Ray,

So basically, accepting the relationship is a liability and manage damages? Reminds me of Trump. Not that it is a bad thing. It is a note.

Zac

 

[pks391]

Interesting.

Another thing I would add is that if strong argument is occurring and/or the kind of levels of frustration that might lead to violence (or losing your shit in some way) then codependence and/or scarcity is probably at the heart of the matter.

As an example whilst married I would get so damn frustrated with my wife's behaviour because it was the exact opposite of how I envisaged a relationship or a wife to be. So much so that I would fly into a rage, go purple in the face, yell at her, break things etc.

In a different relationship there was an incident where I threw the bong across the room in response to a hurtful remark by my girl when I was trying to be vulnerable and ask about problems in our sex life -- I have come to see that whilst I have never raised a hand against a woman this kind of behaviour is quite scary to a woman and she could easily be excused for thinking I might really lose it next time and hurt her.

With the benefit of perspective and the extensive work I have done on my codependence and scarcity issues, it is easy to reinterpret what was really going on in my mind at the time: I was committed to the relationship yet the relationship was not meeting my needs. So my only option, as I saw it then, was to MOULD the relationship to fit my needs. Gradually losing hope on this front was what led to me getting so frustrated I lost my shit, I somehow thought if I yelled hard enough it would drive the point home to her and get her to change her behaviour. This whole mindset was totally codependent. Why did I not just walk away? Because I thought if I did that I would spend another 5-10yrs lonely and not getting sex. That whole mindset was totally scarcity.

Now that I understand the issue I will obviously never have the same kinds of problems, how I handle the same kind of issues now is (1) I accept her for herself and the relationship for what it is -- not what I'd hoped she/it would become (2) instead of moulding I would basically take a cost/benefit approach, do I enjoy the relationship enough to stay in it despite its imperfections (3) I avoid any kind of similar issue from ever coming up by always setting firm, appropriate boundaries, grounded in MY OWN BEHAVIOUR AND DECISIONS, things that I can change as opposed to hers that I cannot.

As an example a few months back I arranged a swimming trip with my kids and my girl after school as a treat on the last day of term. I had a complicated series of appointments and errands to do first, and I discussed the plan carefully with her. She wanted to be picked up from uni at a certain time but cutting a long story short she wasn't in the appointed place at the appointed time, this made me a bit angry as I had clearly explained the time pressures we were under and I had texted her progress reports "Leaving XX now be XX minutes" and "I am now XX minutes away please be waiting at street level".

She wanted me to wait while she finished helping her friend in the library so I texted back "I will leave at XX:XX for the school pickup". And then I stuck to it -- at exactly that time, left without her. Old codependent me would have allowed her to mess up my routine and embarrass me with the school (late pickup is absolutely unacceptable) and then yelled at her later for not respecting me, etc -- which she clearly didn't. New me remained calm throughout. And, because I set a clear boundary she respected me a lot more -- was very contrite and I helped her get a bus to the pool where she arrived in good time. Although I felt disrespected I didn't bother to discuss with her, there was no need due to my clear boundary setting.

Keeping these principles in mind I can't see how I would ever be able to lose my shit at a woman in future, there's just no need. In any case having to do cooperative parenting whilst an Intervention Order was in place for 2yrs or so (due to which merely raising my voice could have sent me to jail, whereas there were no restrictions on my ex-wife's behaviour and she used to do her absolute best to get me to lose my shit every time)... made me take a pretty hard look at myself and grow up and take responsibility for my decisions and behaviour. When my ex figured out that nothing she could possibly do, no matter how outrageous, would ever make me lose my shit, she quit trying it on and has treated me very respectfully ever since.

So my advice to pks and others is: Be a rock. Be imperturbable. And if you should temporarily go backward from this, you will probably find the reasons in the above. Address the problem at its causes: Lots of approaching, good relationship management, firm boundaries, etc. Never lash out.

Ray

Very, very insightful post you made Ray, thanks,