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How to be more of a bad boy and less of a nice guy?

Pato

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
109
Hey guys, I've recently been called a "really nice guy" by one of the girls in my social circle. I've tried to stop being such a nice guy, but I never really knew where to start, as it's not natural for me to be a jerk. I know that being a jerk is not what I want to aim for, so what can I do to become more of a bad boy and less of a nice guy while not going into jerk/asshole territory? I'd want to attain the bad boy image without becoming a complete jerk to others. Also, would it be really difficult to change my rep within the social circle that I'm already in? If I'm already viewed as a nice guy by at least some of the girls, I'd think it could take a lot to change their views of me, but I'm ready and willing to change.

I'm just sort of confused on how to act and what to do. Should I just be more indifferent to the things around me and be less emotional? I never thought I was too emotional, but I can probably improve there. Do I also need to be more sexual and move faster with girls? What if I try moving fast and a girl says that she doesn't see me that way because I'm a nice guy? Obviously I need to start somewhere, and I'm open to ideas. I'm fed up with being a nice guy even when I try not to be one, so I really could use some help here. What is it exactly that makes a guy a "nice guy" and where is the line between complete jerk and bad boy?

And would becoming more of a bad boy affect my relationships with guy friends, family, and everyone I already know? Would people start thinking I'm becoming more of a jerk and that I'm changing for the worse? Just wondering what to expect if I'm going to change myself.

Thanks a ton,
Pato
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

themainattraction

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
22
Hey Pato
No I'm by no means an expert on picking up women, heck I'm still digesting all the stuff I'm reading and building up the confidence to finally go out there.

But what I can tell you is from my own experience. I used to be a "nice guy" in a sense that I would say yes to almost any request from a girl if I thought she was cute. A "nice guy" in that when a girl liked me, I would bend over back to do anything for her because I was sure that was the way to her heart. A "nice guy" in that I thought hooking up with women who weren't my girlfriend was wrong and immoral (the hell was wrong with me.) A "nice guy" in that I told myself I would wait months to have sex with a girl because it's right (though I was never able to wait that long, heh). Every friend who was a girl would tell me how sweet and nice and friendly I was, and I prided myself on that, really, because it seems like that is a rare quality to have. This was just less than a couple of years ago. Around the time I turned 21 I started acting differently because some girl tore me apart and the depression lasted for months.

I started not being nice to every girl I met just because I thought she was cute. Not that I was a jerk, but I wasn't trying hard show how much of a sweet person I was. For example, I would discuss on an emotional level things that would immediately reveal that I was an emotional person and, even worse, a hopeless romantic (blaghh). Like how much I wanted a girlfriend, how great I thought it would be, things like that. I would be sickeningly nice and supportive to someone I just met, which is a turn off. So that quickly changed. And now if topics did come up about past relationships and things that would naturally get me emotional, I would keep a cool head and talk about it without showing much emotion.

Also my biggest change was that I observed my best friend talk to the girls at college. He was the most charming person I met (half dominican half puertorican so it makes sense, yet physically he's not the best looking guy). The way he talked to girls and flirted with them changed the way I looked at how to interact with girls. I thought the rule was to keep classy, not flirt too intensely or sexually, and he made me see that that was absolutely wrong. Girls were laughing and had their attention completely on him because he did exactly that. And I know him best, he's my absolute best friend, and I know that deep inside he's sweet, romantic, and a nice guy too- he just doesn't show it right off at the beginning. And I think that's the key.

But I think it's important not to lose that part of you, ever. Because as far as relationships go, in my opinion, that's one of the best qualities to have, and it could also get you some great, caring women. My ex was an absolute stunner, educated, latina (my favorite), and had the most perfect body you could imagine. How did I get her? By being a gentleman, and being respectful, and almost no flirting, just deep conversation. I don't want to say by being a nice guy because, well, it has some negative traits associated with it, like neediness, etc. Many guys tried to flirt with her, pick her up, court her, and failed miserably. She told me all this, and told me that I caught her attention exactly because I wasn't hitting on her like all other guys. Not gonna lie, she did see me as a friend in the beginning. But she started falling for me once I showed my conversational skills and wit, and it helped that I was educated and had a passion for dancing. Always good to have =) then once in the relationship I was able to bring out my flirty sexual side, which she got used to and ended up loving. Maybe I got lucky, who knows. But at least I know there are gorgeous educated girls out there who like genuinely kind men.

Now, the other side of the coin. I met another stunner this past summer. I failed in the end with her but I had her wrapped around my finger for a solid two months in terms of who put in more effort and showed more affection (I wish I had found this site before, because then I wouldnt have become a needy punkass and would have moved muccchhh faster). At some point she was hinting at me hardcore to tell her I liked her, which I did, and she unleashed like a speech of how much she liked me and why. Now, what did I do with her to get her to like me? The opposite of what I did with my ex. Instead of having deep conversations in the beginning about our childhood and culture and upbringing, we talked about random crap, barely scratching the surface of who we were, but every conversation was dripping with fun and sarcasm which we both loved. I didn't know at the time, but I was almost a complete mystery to her (she told me this at some point; now I know its a good thing). And eventually, some sexual stuff got thrown in there. We would go salsa dancing and I had no reservations about dancing with other girls and I knew she could see. If I was still the nice guy I was before, I would have catered to her need the entire night. I know Chase mentions not to text much, but we would text all day, and sometimes she would stop but sometimes I would stop. But again, it was mostly with a sarcastic, playful tone, never kissed her ass once, never complimented her without her having complimented me first, always gave her playful shit to deal with. And, she mentioned, I was the only guy who ever did that; all other guys would break their back for her and kiss her ass. Sound familiar?

Then she went in for a kiss. I dodged it, but decided to kiss her back. Then I started showing my sweet side, which she adored and to be honest, craved. The holding, passionate kissing, the cute messages here and there. As I said, I had her wrapped around my finger, even then. But then I made the huge mistake of becoming needy after a few weeks, after her getting a 12 hour/day job 4-5 x week and having a new baby in the family. I was asking her too much to hang out, and asking her just once why she was being distant. Once was too much.

Moral of the stories? Be sweet to those who deserve it, but don't be needy.
Girl #1 was an example of how being genuinely nice (and being able to hold conversation, and having value, duh) can land you an amazing woman. Girl #2 was an example of how I acted cool, suave, didn't kiss ass, and was apparently mysterious...and how I almost got the girl. Really. Don't be needy. Not even once.

So with that longass post what I'm trying to say is that you don't necessarily have to add bad boy qualities to yourself. Just try not to show your nice guy traits until much later on, after you've got some investment from her, because in most cases do it right from the start and you look like youre starving for a woman's attention. And don't be afraid to add some sexual references and jokes in your conversations with women. I think that'll take the nice guy image right off. Or, at least, make you a very unconventional nice guy, which is what I consider myself ;)

And in case you didn't catch it the last two times....don't be needy!
I'd go back in time and kick my own ass if I could
 

Nuncle

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
172
Hi Pato

I keep getting called a nice guy too.

I used to like it but since trying to learn pick-up it's become like a real slap in the face, particularly if they say it right in the middle of when I'm trying to be cocky.

My guess is you just don't let things like that discourage you. It just means you haven't internalised being a bad boy yet but if you keep adopting the pose you will,

Personally I think there actually is an element of jerkishness in being a bad boy. But there is an element of jerkishness in being a nice guy, too. Bad Boys are just more open and honest about it, and less concerned about negative feedback
 

Mr.Rob

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,897
By being a nice guy your actually being an asshole. If you meet a girl that's super stunning and you don't let her know very very soon you think she's super attractive and would obviously bone her your an asshole. Why? Because your hiding your thoughts and covering it up because you think women are these sweet asexual that don't like being treated in a sexual way. So obviously these women will have to act accordingly to fit the role your treating them as. If your getting intimate with a girl or its time to get intimate with a girl and you wonder if you should touch her (promiscuously) or not and you choose not to (because she's probably the type of girl who doesn't let guys touch her there on the first date) your probably being an asshole. Women love to be touched (by the right man in a non creepy way) and by not touching her your depriving her and yourself from a potentially awesome time. Sexyy time verrryy nicccee (in cool borat voice).

Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LflbIkbjjog.
Hey dude not trying to rip you one here but it looks like you have done the hardest part and that's accepting the fact that you are a nice guy. So good job there brother. I think some deliberate practice being more of a jerk and doing everything on your terms will eventually get you there on top of that you badly need to change your inner mindsets and find which ones are bullshit and extract them and replace them with better more productive to you getting laid mindsets.

Check out chases articles on being a nice guy if you haven't already btw.
CHeers
Rob
 

Ross

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
550
Hello Pato,

I've found that one of the major things that sets apart nice guys from bad boys is the ability to be strong in the face of controversy.

Example

A girl asks a guy to pay for her drink.

Nice guy: Sure, I'll do it! -or- Alright, I'll pay for it this time..
Bad Boy: Pay for it yourself. (continue conversation)


In all, it's very much a frame battle. The nice guy goes along with frames, while the bad boy sets his own frames and doesn't stray from them. Other typical things are just going along with what the group is doing (even if you find it boring or pointless), deep diving but never leading/moving a girl, etc. All examples of typical "nice guy" attitudes. This niceness comes from fear of controversy, rather than doing what you believe to be right.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine to be a great guy. I've been complimented on conversation skills and for being a great guy that inspires women - but I've also been called an asshole by those same women. To be a strong, sexy, bad boy, you're going to end up stepping on some toes and having some people call you a jerk. In reality, you're most likely being a strong guy, and they are throwing that out there as a result of feeling bad from losing that frame battle. The key to not being labeled as a jerk in a bad way is to lead them towards a better alternative. Girl asks you to pay for her drink? You tell her that she needs to pay for it, and continue to lead her towards the alternative of a great night in bed, rather than a boring, platonic conversation.

By the way, shutting down emotionally is very much a "nice guy" thing to do. You don't want to shut down emotionally, rather, you want to avoid crazy emotional reactions to things. Hard to do when faced with things that you've never done before; that's why you need to get out there and conquer your emotions, rather than hide from them.
 

Nuncle

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
172
I think also, her saying you're a nice guy when you're trying to be a bad boy can itself be a frame battle.

In subtext you are saying "I want sex" and she is saying "No, I am looking for a provider"
 

Pato

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
109
Thanks a lot for the advice everyone. This will help me a ton. I guess I didn't realize how some of the things that I might have thought were pretty minor and unimportant can actually be pretty important. I haven't paid for a girl's drinks/food in quite awhile, but I can definitely see some situations that I've been in that are pretty similar where I've done something for a girl that I probably shouldn't have.

So if I start trying to be more sexual and less platonic with the certain girl that called me a nice guy, could that potentially change her mind/views about me? Or would she think my actions are weird because in her mind I'm already and always will be a nice guy? I know that if I had done some small things differently, I probably would've been able to escalate successfully. But I screwed up, and let her win the frame battle of me being a nice guy. Basically, is it even possible for me to reframe it from me being a nice guy to more of sexual bad boy within a short amount of time? Would it take long to change my image in her (and the rest of the group's) mind or could I do it relatively quickly if I moved fast and started implementing everyone's advice on here immediately? The whole thing happened over the weekend on Saturday night (and I haven't seen her since), so I'm trying to figure out how long I should wait before I try to turn things around.

Anyways, thanks again.
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,540
Mr.Rob said:
Swell video, Rob. Particularly credible coming straight out of a woman's mouth.

There are girls I have hit on HARD (who were giving me flirtatious signals first, i.e. I knew they'd be somewhat receptive) where it has been totally "inappropriate" in the conventional sense... I knew perfectly well they were in a serious relationship, the occupational context had a severe power imbalance, etc. ... and though they rejected me (gently), every time I see them I get a broad smile and a cheery "hello". This lady is right, they really do love it.
 

Mr.Rob

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,897
Hey Pato,
just skimming over your last questions in your comment. Dude I don't think it's going to be easy winning over your social circles opinion on you, to me it's simply not worth the effort. I had a social circle that considered me the nice guy and I even tried escalating on a couple of girls (which was an epic fail) and usually it takes a lot to change their mind. If being around those people make you feel like a "nice guy" and less of a man, I would honestly drop off the radar and build yourself into a stronger man. There's simply no need to stay around people that encourage and make you feel like less of a man/"nice guy". When I realized this I literally dropped off the radar and started cold approaching. I stay in touch with these old friends but I don't partake in their social circle anymore.

It sounds like you need to meet more women. I hate to say it but it sounds like the best thing you could do for yourself is forget about her and go turn yourself into a stunningly epic seducer/bad boy ;). I know it's painful advice but I think it would be your best option. Then you'll find girls way better and hotter than this girl your stuck thinking about how to get. Don't sweat it we've all been there. Regroup, get a plan, and start taking action. Hope this helps mate!

Rob
 

Pato

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
109
Yeah Rob, I definitely agree. I do need to get out and cold approach more often, school has just been really tying me up recently except for on the weekends. Now that I have a car basically all to myself (it's not mine but I can use it almost whenever I want), I can actually get around to that. I just need to find some places that would be good for approaching girls in high school but wouldn't seem too weird or out of place for a guy to be alone.

My last comments/questions were really just for the sake of learning and to know IF there was anything I could do to change my situation. I didn't really expect too much, but I was hoping there might be some way to turn it around. But if leaving the group is what will be best for me, I won't mind leaving for awhile and maybe return when I've improved a lot. But who knows? Maybe I won't want to go back once I get better.

It kinda sucks though, because before a few weeks ago I didn't even have a social group with girls in it, it was just my guy friends from forever that I was hanging out with, and I had just gotten into this new group with some girls. So leaving the group almost right away would be unfortunate. But maybe being part of the group for only a short time will make it easier to change my image (I've only hung out with all of them 6 or 7 times). I also like hanging out with the guys in the group more than my normal guy friends, so I'd still want to hang out with them sometimes. Basically, if I could avoid leaving the group that would be preferable, but I am in no way desperate to stay a part of the group.

But yeah, I can definitely find better and more attractive girls by cold approaching so I really need to start going out more often. Anyways, thanks a lot for advice.
 
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