How to convey frustration/disappointment? My first fight in a relationship

[Skippy]

With this girl, we're more than just fuck buddies, but we're not officially bf/gf, and she's said that she encourages me to be dating other girls on the side. We've been dating for about 6 months. We typically hang out on Saturday nights and she'll sleep over at my place or I'll be over at hers. So there's some emotional investment on both sides. This girl likes to keep our relationship secret because she's the conservative Chinese type, but she's met a couple of my close friends and we've all hung out together before.

So recently she moved to Chinatown in an apartment that she shares with her landlord(an old Chinese woman) and another old Chinese couple. The landlord acts like her mom and will always text her if she's not back by 11pm to see what's up. Earlier in the week, I told her that I had to go to a friend's birthday party on Saturday and so I'd be free after 11 at night. We were planning to go on a long walk at some point, so I told her we could do that Sunday morning, but she says she has something in the morning so we agree to figure out something else to do that night.

On saturday, I'm texting her. The plan is to meet up at Chinatown, and I assumed we'd go back to my place since she want's to keep this hidden from her landlord. (she introduced me to her before as her foreigner friend)

Me: We should meet by the old Chinatown gate. Also, bring your toys
Her: Can you come to my apartment instead? Cuz I need to get up early tomorrow morning... I wish I could hide you in a box...
Her: Do you know how to hide yourself?
Me: W8 where do you have to go tomorrow? just pack everything you need and bring it over.
Me: So you can go directly wherever you need to
Me: If I stay, your landlord is probably going to know for sure.

Her: I promised my landlord that I will go shopping with her tomorrow morning and she asked me to wake up early tomorrow morning at like 8am

Me: Oh so she doesn't know
Me: Just ask if you can come later
Me: She's still awake now right? (this was sent at 10pm)
Me: babe, if you can avoid it, try not to schedule stuff for early morning Sundays. [We like to also have sex in the mornings, and she's disappointed when we don't. I was actually annoyed when she said this because she could've easily scheduled it later.]

Her: I mean they treat me like daughter...every night I went home late after 11, they'll call me to check if I'm ok...If I just go out with you tonight they will have doubts anyway
Her: btw none of the couples stay in my apartment could speak english

Me: yea but you can't possibly hide me. Anyways I think we should discuss in person.

Her: I want to give up. let's plan it next week

Me: bummer -_-

Her: Do we still meet tonight? We can still talk

Me: let's meet by the gate

So I'm annoyed with her because we didn't get to sleep together last week(we celebrated her birthday, but she was sick, and also I suspect her fear of telling her landlord that she was sleeping over at my place was partly why she didn't go back with me), and now she wanted to push it back another week. And I wasn't even sure if next Saturday would work for me.

We meet up and I tell her that I'm also frustrated that she's letting her landlord affect her choices like this. I told her that if she wanted me to stay over, she should've told her other roommates first and she should've told me beforehand so I could bring stuff. It would've been disastrous if an old Chinese granny found me in her apartment when she wasn't expecting it. She burst out laughing because it was a pretty funny to think about.

I also told her that I was annoyed with the fact that she knowingly scheduled something for 8:00 am on a Sunday morning... which just undermines our entire date.
And that she's 24...at this age, even Chinese mom's don't mind if you're dating a guy. I was stern when I said these things to her, but I wasn't yelling. She's the sensitive shy type so she was fidgeting a lot and she said she was kind of scared of me right now. Also, it's the first time I had ever been critical of her. She kept fixing her hair as a nervous tic until I pointed it out to her.

When she told me she was scared, I told her that I was frustrated because I cared about her and I didn't want to squander what little remaining time we had together(we're breaking up at the end of spring when I graduate)

She still wanted me to hide in her room for the night, but I did not want to do that. And at this point, it was also too late at night to ask the landlord and roommates if it was okay for me to stay over with her.(out of courtesy)
It turns out her 8:00am appointment was so that the landlord could show her where to buy certain Chinese vegetables...It was not at all urgent...so I suggested she come with me, but cancel her appointment with the landlord. since she could just show her another time, and the landlord was going to go grocery shopping at 8 anyways.

I told her, I'm not pressuring her one way or another and she's free to choose whatever, but I would like to be with her tonight. She finally decided we should plan for something next week (not sure if I'll even be able to next week though). So I just said "okay cya" and went home.


So to Recap:
--I'm disappointed because I wanted to be with her tonight, and not push off hanging out again.
--I was annoyed that she was too scared to tell her landlord that she would be staying over at my place tonight
--I was annoyed that she planned something for 8 am Sunday morning, which basically undermined our time together (How do we have time to meet at 11:30, and get proper sleep if she has to be up at 8)
--I was annoyed that she had so many opportunities to sort this out (even as late as 10pm today) but she didn't. I think I should've anticipated this and planned details with her before today. So I take responsibility for my annoyance.

Questions:
1. How could I have handled this better? I felt like it was okay to admit that I was frustrated(I still remained calm, but just stern) because this is more than just an fwb.
2. What are your thoughts on the scenario as a whole and what should I do next? Should I just give her radio silence until she messages me asking to meet. I feel like I still wanted to tell her more things that I'm frustrated about, such as the fact that I would NEVER plan something for 8am on a Sunday if I knew I was going to see her on Saturday night...I think that's the main reason why this whole thing bothers me in the first place. Also, I'm seeing a couple other girls as well and I'm thinking I could just put her lower on my priority list this week. Or I could do a soft next?

My apologies if I came off as ranting...I mean I sort of am...but I also need to use this as a learning experience. So if you're reading this far, I really appreciate it =)

 

[Seppuku]

Hey ShuaiGe,

I completely sympathize with your frustration and want to say that I have been through this sort of bullshit (or similar) so many, many, many times.

There is a difference between you and me though. You're probably in your late 20's at most (correct me if I'm wrong?) and I'm in my late 40's. Meaning that I see a pattern here. And also I have come to be emotionally detached from this sort of things. You have to develop nerves of steel when you have been exposed to this for 30 years. So the following might sound a little ice steel. I believe that this is what it takes to deal with women over the long term.

What I see here is a change in the dynamics of interaction, in her favor. You didn't get sex last week. You won't get sex this week. Who knows about next week. Even if you could "hide" and go to her place, try to have sex with the landlord sleeping next room - LOL. So according to her plan, you will be at least three weeks without sex. It's OK for her. She most probably enjoys having sex with you, but if she doesn't, it's OK with her, she can wait as long as she's not aroused.

Now, the only reason she can afford to do that, is because she feels safe in your relationship. She would certainly not have done that at the beginning, because by then the interaction was very much in your favor - remember your initial power is to give her, or not, the relationship that she is seeking. But now, she is very comfortable, she knows you're not seeing other girls (at least she thinks so, even if you are, but most probably it's because you are not). So now, the interaction is in her favor - her power is to decide if you have sex or not.

It seems that she is now holding the higher frame.

For the benefit of the couple, it is important that the man keeps the higher frame at all times. For this purpose:

1. aim to keep your ability at getting a new woman in your bed within two weeks.
2. keep a pool of orbiting women, "in case of"
3. should an incident like this happen, you tell her "no problem". You reject any proposition to meet without sex ("Her: Do we still meet tonight? We can still talk")
4. instead, you go and date one of your orbiting women, and if possible, fuck her
5. In any case, you never express your frustration. If you keep your abundance and outcome independence even within your relationship, it should be easy.

About what to do now. What she did was not nice to you. You should observe a strict radio silence and make her work to restore things right. Remember that the girls are craving, first and foremost, your attention. She must deserve it. If she doesn't, remove her attention. Don't worry. She has much more insecurities than you do. And she will be back.

In the meantime, work towards building up your pool of women. That's the only way to make sure she's not overly safe with you. Then she won't pull you this sort of BS.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Seppuku]

Just little addendum to my previous post.

Note that steps 1 to 3 above are nothing more than what girls are doing. They always keep their sexual attractiveness fine tuned, and maintain orbiters. They keep side options. I am not inventing anything here.

If you keep your own options, she doesn't get a hold on you. She throw BS? No problem. Meet your options instead. You keep the higher frame, and make sure that she's the one in chasing position. It will keep her attraction for you alive, and she won't be throwing this sort of non sense at you. It's about restoring the balance in your relationship.

By the way I only saw now your new FR and LR. Congratulations. So you have side options already, and are able to create some for yourself. Use it to your advantage like I said above.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Big Daddy]

Seppuku,

You said,

she knows you're not seeing other girls (at least she thinks so, even if you are, but most probably it's because you are not)

In that light, does step #4 (fucking, specifically) really matters?

I'm all in for a healthy frame control/relationship dynamic, but fucking a girl on the adds some potential unwanted drama to the mix if she finds out (considering this is done for maintaining mental saneness and you're not really looking for another gf). Don't know about you guys, but I always run into people I know when I do this, it's unbelievable (and I live in a huge city).

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Big Daddy,

I believe it is essential for the guy to maintain his sexual market value as good as possible while in a relationship. In order to keep negotiation power within the couple, he needs to keep his ability of walking away from the relationship if he has to, AND she needs to be aware that he could walk away if it comes to it. It doesn't mean he will, it's just he could. It's veto power. That puts everyone on the same level within the relationship.

What happens typically is:
* the guy initially gets good enough to get a girlfriend
* most of the time at least, the guy was initially just looking for an easy source of sex
* she gives him great sex and ropes him into a relationship
* he commits to her and lose his skills to get other women (sexual market value drops)
* she is now safe and he depends on her for sex. He has no other options
* she can now have the higher hand on the relationship. The balance hugely in her favor.
* she starts now becoming bolder. Withhold sex. Or give him drama. Or have demands.
* also she starts slowly losing respect for him.

I have definitely been there before. I can see this is what was happening. You guys see for yourself how much this applies for your cases.

The cure for this is to maintain your sexual market value at good level. Be aware that the girl *does* maintain her sexual market value at her peak, at all times, so it's only fair game. And in order to keep your sexual market value, you need to continue to have girls on the side. There's no other way.

The way it plays out, it means you keep your outcome independence vs. your girlfriend. No sex tonight darling? Sure! No problem. I'm going out. If she sees her little micro drama doesn't have a hold on you, she will start to wonder and become more prudent. That's how she knows that he still could veto her out.

So now your main points:
1. why fucking other girls if she's not aware of it?
Well it will become obvious if you keep your devil may care attitude in front of her bullshit. Outcome independent. Her crap doesn't have a hold on you. Also, if you keep being good at getting girls, she will sense it intuitively, from your vibe. When I meet girls, the question I have is no longer "Do you have a girlfriend?" but "How many girlfriends do you have?" How would they know? From the vibe.
2. she may get mad if she finds out. Yes. This is a problem of expectations setting. Don't know what to tell you on how to curve previously set expectations. If you had set some strong monogamous expectations from the very beginning, it will become difficult to shift. It's something that is best done from the start. You should see having sex as your right. It's your expectation. She wants committed monogamy? Then she cannot deny sex. She wants to deny sex? Then she cannot expect committed monogamy. You'll get sex elsewhere. It's your right.

Another way to view it is, if you keep girls on the side, she may get mad and all bets are off. But if your sexual market value drops, she will get her ways with you easily and lose interest, so you may be losing her anyway. Which way is better? Having been on both side, I much prefer the second option. Keep my happiness at the top.

I love this topic. I believe that the ultimate goal of seduction is to get better terms within relationships.

Cheers!
Seppuku
PS. Running into people you know... Well that I have no answer. You manage ;-)

 

[ProblemSolving]

1. How could I have handled this better? I felt like it was okay to admit that I was frustrated(I still remained calm, but just stern) because this is more than just an fwb.

What do you want from this girl? Do you want a fwb or a monogamous girlfriend? Right now you're trying to straddle both lines and it doesn't work. If you just want her as a fwb then stop getting emotional, stop taking her on dates, and don't let her meet your social circle.

You were frustrated. You were expecting sex to happen like it usually does, but she flaked. We've all been there, but you can't let it get to you. The fact of the matter is, at this point, you lost the tug-of-war to her grandma, so forget about her. When she's excited about seeing you, she will contact you and be hungry for the D.

In that light, does step #4 (fucking, specifically) really matters?

I'm all in for a healthy frame control/relationship dynamic, but fucking a girl on the adds some potential unwanted drama to the mix if she finds out (considering this is done for maintaining mental saneness and you're not really looking for another gf)

If you are in a monogamous relationship with a girl, you don't have to actually bang a different girl to get your abundance back. Girls maintain their abundance by getting plenty of positive attention from other guys. You can maintain your abundance by getting positive attention from other girls. You don't have to actually cheat on your girlfriend to get your balls back. Doing so would be way overkill.

Trust me, if your girlfriend refuses sex for whatever reason and you withdraw your attention from her, she will come looking for your cock much faster than trying to wrangle up a new lay.

 

[Big Daddy]

ProblemSolving & Seppuku,

Love your responses guys. I'm on this stage where I'm becoming increasingly interested in longer relationships dynamics once the "bedding only one girl" has become more solid for me.

After reading your responses, I realized that I'm still very square in my expectation-setting. I have the mental coldness to be emotionally detached if a girl is playing games with me, but I still don't have the "vibe" ingrained into my soul.

So generally what happens is: the girl states that I clearly strike her as the type who would not have a girlfriend (in fact, a lot of people, including friends, guys and gals, tell me that); So I think I have that part more-or-less handled.

However, even if they see me like that and I want to start a fwb and start doing things like,

If you just want her as a fwb then stop getting emotional, stop taking her on dates, and don't let her meet your social circle.

It's something that is best done from the start. You should see having sex as your right. It's your expectation. She wants committed monogamy? Then she cannot deny sex. She wants to deny sex? Then she cannot expect committed monogamy. You'll get sex elsewhere. It's your right.

They will see me as this guy who just wants to fuck them (which, honestly, is 85% correct). If I avoid going out with their social circle, they'll become colder/avoid hanging out with me in other setting. If they do, they'll shit test me on how I just wanna fuck.

I can never have a explicit, somewhat structured fwb relationship because if I ever talk explicitly on how we can just "text whenever we want to fuck" they'll either agree and last for a short while, agree and ignore afterwards or wobble a little bit, as if I was trying to "benefit" from them even though they said themselves in the first place that they see me as that kind of guy, wat.

EDIT: Ah, one very important detail is that most of the time for different and varied reasons (maybe friends in common, maybe I don't want to be associated with the "values" that her image carry, nothing in particular), I don't want to necessarily be "associated" with the girl, seen in public, etc which may me something to take into consideration as that might put additional strain into this whole story.

What am I doing here that you guys are not?

 

[Seppuku]

Hey,

If you are in a monogamous relationship with a girl, you don't have to actually bang a different girl to get your abundance back. Girls maintain their abundance by getting plenty of positive attention from other guys. You can maintain your abundance by getting positive attention from other girls. You don't have to actually cheat on your girlfriend to get your balls back. Doing so would be way overkill.

Trust me, if your girlfriend refuses sex for whatever reason and you withdraw your attention from her, she will come looking for your cock much faster than trying to wrangle up a new lay.

I guess ProblemSolving and myself are coming from the same position. I'm a little more extreme, as being used to open/poly-relationships. Overall idea is to keep abundance mentality and outcome independence vs. your girl, and give her as little hold on you as possible. It's a "various shades of grey" thing - you guys pick the nuance of grey that fits you.

I still very much like this idea:

You should see having sex as your right. It's your expectation. She wants committed monogamy? Then she cannot deny sex. She wants to deny sex? Then she cannot expect committed monogamy. You'll get sex elsewhere. It's your right.

And yes, agreed, withdrawing attention is another powerful tool.

@BigDaddy
About turning her as FWB, there are a numbers of things to do from the very beginning - hard to reverse them when you already set the expectations:
* No meeting on her terms
* No meeting in social setting
* Meeting always ends up with sex
* Meeting at most once a week, or less frequent
* Dodge all BF-like compliance requests ("Where are my flowers?" "There are no flowers" "Why?" "Because that's the way it is")
* Strictly no BF/GF activity (cinema, restaurant, watching movie at home etc...)
* No overnight stay

Some even say "no cuddling". Yet, I am still trying to treat her well, within the above rules. Also, I never vocalize the FWB status, or openly say something like "let's meet and fuck". It's always like "Hey, let's have dinner" (at my place). The ASD thing to keep in mind. The FWB relationship is always implicit and de facto.

If you are interested in this, there was an interesting interaction with Grand Pooba on my journal on this topic, link is here. You can see his views on the subject.

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Skippy]

Thanks so much, guys! there's a fuckton of insight in this thread.

I'll tell you guys what happened these next two weekends with her, as it sort of got resolved.

1. aim to keep your ability at getting a new woman in your bed within two weeks.
2. keep a pool of orbiting women, "in case of"
3. should an incident like this happen, you tell her "no problem". You reject any proposition to meet without sex ("Her: Do we still meet tonight? We can still talk")
4. instead, you go and date one of your orbiting women, and if possible, fuck her
5. In any case, you never express your frustration. If you keep your abundance and outcome independence even within your relationship, it should be easy.

About what to do now. What she did was not nice to you. You should observe a strict radio silence and make her work to restore things right. Remember that the girls are craving, first and foremost, your attention. She must deserve it. If she doesn't, remove her attention. Don't worry. She has much more insecurities than you do. And she will be back.

You were frustrated. You were expecting sex to happen like it usually does, but she flaked. We've all been there, but you can't let it get to you. The fact of the matter is, at this point, you lost the tug-of-war to her grandma, so forget about her. When she's excited about seeing you, she will contact you and be hungry for the D.

Got it! I'll keep this in mind next time. Unfortunately, I ended up messaging her first the next weekend. But she was down to meet up, and apparently this time, she just told the landlord she was visiting a friend so there zero problems with her staying over. I realized by showing frustration, it just gave off negative preselection because that night in bed she was telling me how she was upset that I talked to her that way and she thought it sounded like I just wanted her for sex. She hadn't slept over for 3 weeks and each time she could sense my frustration so she thought it was because I was annoyed at not being able to have sex. Ironically, it was more about just wanting to cuddle with her at night.

When she stayed over that week, she put on make up and had taken great care to shave everything... Her plan was to end things after that night because she couldn't help but get more and more emotionally attached and wanted to end things on a good note. But something happened the Sunday after that made her change her mind...basically she heard me talk passionately about something and she realized she was too in love to just break things off. (the thing is, our relationship has very little long term prospects because I'm moving to LA after this school year)

Then I got a herpes scare this past week and was feeling pretty down about the whole thing. Lost all motivation to date other girls. Originally there were 4-5 girls that I had at least made out with and could potentially fuck but after the scare, I just thought I was "madly in love" with OG and I stopped contacting all the other girls. The STD tests all came out negative and assuming it's not a false negative for hsv, I'm probably good (I think it's unlikely to be a false negative because the doctor basically sliced open one of the pimples and swabbed up all the liquid...If a swab test can't find herpes in that, then idk what a swab test is even good for. He thinks it's folliculitis instead. sorry if that was TMI) However, after that incident, I kind of got an irrational fear of fucking around and only want to be seeing a minimal number of girls at once. I think I'll come around in a few weeks, but this whole ordeal has gotten me shook. The silver lining to all this is that I told the girl about my potential herpes/std and her response was basically..."don't worry about it, before we started fucking I wasn't fully vaccinated for hpv and I wanted you so badly that I was prepared for the risk. Even if you have HIV I wouldn't care, as long as you didn't get it from a stupid reason" (as a side note, it seems we're pretty close to a functional cure for herpes. I mean the actual symptoms from the std aren't that big of a deal, but the stigma of it is largely overblown in peoples minds, that and also the ethical concern of accidentally passing it to a partner)

It was also convenient because the next weekend(ie this past weekend) she was close to having her period and all she could think about the entire week was having me inside of her. We fucked like rabbits that weekend and she slept over both Saturday night and Sunday night(unprecedented). She also claims that the only thing she wants from me is sex and she tells her friends that I'm her "sex partner", yet the nature of our relationship is just a lot more couple-y. It really just feels like I want to have my cake and eat it too because I enjoy doing couple-y things with her just as much as the sex, but I know there's very little long-term potential since I'm leaving.

@BigDaddy
About turning her as FWB, there are a numbers of things to do from the very beginning - hard to reverse them when you already set the expectations:
* No meeting on her terms
* No meeting in social setting
* Meeting always ends up with sex
* Meeting at most once a week, or less frequent
* Dodge all BF-like compliance requests ("Where are my flowers?" "There are no flowers" "Why?" "Because that's the way it is")
* Strictly no BF/GF activity (cinema, restaurant, watching movie at home etc...)
* No overnight stay

yea I find this list very useful too. And if you want to convert her to a girlfriend, do you just violate the last 4 rules(barring maybe the compliance request)? I've been violating them intentionally because I kind of wanted her as a girlfriend even though I know it's a bad idea and even though it would only be for a year. but it seems that because I'm moving, my bf potential is shot. It's hard to figure out what she actually sees me as, because this weekend she was claiming she only wanted sex from me, but it also seems like shes in love.

 

[ProblemSolving]

About turning her as FWB, there are a numbers of things to do from the very beginning - hard to reverse them when you already set the expectations:
* No meeting on her terms
* No meeting in social setting
* Meeting always ends up with sex
* Meeting at most once a week, or less frequent
* Dodge all BF-like compliance requests ("Where are my flowers?" "There are no flowers" "Why?" "Because that's the way it is")
* Strictly no BF/GF activity (cinema, restaurant, watching movie at home etc...)
* No overnight stay

Some even say "no cuddling". Yet, I am still trying to treat her well, within the above rules. Also, I never vocalize the FWB status, or openly say something like "let's meet and fuck". It's always like "Hey, let's have dinner" (at my place). The ASD thing to keep in mind. The FWB relationship is always implicit and de facto.

I differ a little bit in my FWB relationships. I allow my girls to stay over night (it's way more convenient and it helps retention), and we eat and watch movies at my place, we cuddle and of course have sex. One of my FWBs has been seeing me for over 3 years and she definitely knows I have other girls over. There are some key points that you made that are essential for letting the girl know it's a FWB relationship without having to say it out loud:

- Invite her over once a week or so

- No texting her besides inviting her over

- No dates

- Sex always happens when you meet up

- No talk about the relationship or "feelings"

Whether of not you retain a girl in a FWB relationship will depend a lot on the girl. Some girls are more accepting of the arrangement than others. This will also depend on how many options the girl has. If she wants a serious relationship and there are a lot of guys that are knocking on her "door", she won't stick around for long.

Some guys will actually recommend taking a FWB out for dates because it gives the girl hope that a serious relationship will come of it and will therefore increase retention, but I don't like the idea of leading girls on just to keep her around. That's how feelings get hurt.

(the thing is, our relationship has very little long term prospects because I'm moving to LA after this school year)

Ah Ok. That explains it. I couldn't quite figure it out since you both seemed to want to be monogamous.

The STD tests all came out negative and assuming it's not a false negative for hsv, I'm probably good (I think it's unlikely to be a false negative because the doctor basically sliced open one of the pimples and swabbed up all the liquid...If a swab test can't find herpes in that, then idk what a swab test is even good for. He thinks it's folliculitis instead. sorry if that was TMI)

I have actually had both folliculitis and herpes (cold sores) before. Folliculitis looks like a bunch of red pimples scattered all around usually on the hair follicle, while herpes looks like a bunch of small blisters clustered together in small area.

I have never had gential herpes, but it looks the same as a cold sore that you would get on your lip. I had my first outbreak when I was 6, but I have since found a simple way of preventing herpes outbreaks and it works for both gential herpes and regular herpes, so don't worry. If you get another outbreak, give me a shout.

I've been violating them intentionally because I kind of wanted her as a girlfriend even though I know it's a bad idea and even though it would only be for a year. but it seems that because I'm moving, my bf potential is shot. It's hard to figure out what she actually sees me as, because this weekend she was claiming she only wanted sex from me, but it also seems like shes in love

Yeah, you guys are pretty much boyfriend and girlfriend, so it's understandable why she's hurt. In this case, I say continue doing the boyfriend-girlfriend stuff. Sure emotions will grow, but you both know it can't last, and it's not your fault for hurting her. Hell, she might just decide to move to LA and start a whole new chapter in life.