Socializing How to Defend Against Gaslighting

[The Emerald Archer]

Sup Everybody,

Long time, no see!

Hope everyone's hanging in there with COVID and the lockdowns and all the political nuttiness.

I'm really curious to hear your guys' input (ya know, the non-mainstream psychological opinion) on gaslighting and how to defend against it and "expose" the other person for lying and manipulating. Especially in my own family.

I've noticed that every time I call somebody out in my family (or anybody in general) for doing something disrespectful or engaging in any type of otherwise bad behavior (like gossiping about me or passive-aggressiveness or any type of tooling or social ladder climbing behavior) and I directly confront it and call them out, they typically respond by gaslighting.

The most common examples:

• "You're misinterpreting" or "that's just YOUR interpretation"
• "You're putting things in your head" or "I don't know what you're putting in your head lately"
• "Stop being so defensive/sensitive"

It's really annoying because I KNOW what they're doing, but I also find this tactic extremely egregious because of just how manipulative it is. Even though I LOGICALLY know what they're doing, there is still a kernel of self-doubt that will creep into my mind before I stubbornly tell myself

• "NO! They're gaslighting you right now! Don't listen!"

A perfect example recently. I overheard my mom gossiping about me over the phone to my dad accusing me of lying about something related to finding a job/switching my career and I overheard her.

I called her out on it later when I went downstairs into the kitchen. And of course, not only did she deny saying that she thinks I'm lying about finding a job, but then she gaslit me saying "you're misinterpreting/hearing things!" and tried to spin the story which was an OBVIOUS LIE.

I got angry and displayed my anger and told her she's lying to my face. I realize now this was a terrible way to react and that I should have told her I was disappointed in her instead (I did that today actually).

This is a recurring theme I've noticed with people and especially in my family. Every time I point out or call out some disrespectful thing they said or did, they almost always tell me some variation of "you're misinterpreting/it's your interpretation/don't be so defensive and sensitive."

My questions are:

1. If someone is gaslighting you, what's the dominant and socially savvy way to respond?
2. Is gaslighting a huge red flag? Should you be incredibly careful and vigilant around individuals who use this tactic (at least sometimes)?
3. Should you just expect gaslighting from people any time you directly confront them since lots of folks are conflict-avoidant nowadays and are afraid of being called out?
4. Should I be concerned that I come from a dysfunctional family and/or a toxic one? How can I TEST for this?

EDIT: I was looking up Hector's video here:

where he touches on being called "sensitive." In the video notes, there is a link to the article on double-binds.

Is that what gaslighting would be considered, a double bind?

 

[Zoro]

I don't have direct experience with your exact situation, but I have had to deal with family behaving in toxic ways or not understanding me and trying to insist I look at something from their perspective. The funny thing is that I would look at it from theirs, and they would not do me the same courtesy.

I remember once I tried to take a step back and calmly talk about the disagreements I was starting to have with my father, who is usually a great and level headed guy. He refused to try and work things out, and that blew my mind. What ended up "fixing" things was moving out of my father's house. Two stubborn adult males living under one roof with different opinions on how to manage a household do not mix well.

When it comes to family, I know for me, and I suspect for many people in general, there is a desire to have them understand you, and ideally to be an ally and supportive in your endeavors. It can be incredibly frustrating and disheartening to have family shoot down your dreams, behave in toxic and immature ways, or not understand that you are your own man.

I've had to come to terms with this, and accept that my family are not allies for some parts of my life. If I tell my dad I want to travel, he reacts with fear and tries to discourage me. If I tell my mother about some dream, she asks me why I'm not pursing the typical American dream and go back to school and get a "good job" to buy a nice house with the white picket fence. She "just wants me to be happy" which is a grossly in-congruent statement considering my actual desires and what she's prescribing me, and as a mother I would expect her to understand something so fundamental about her son. It's like my parents have an automatic response that they cannot turn off or examine.

I don't bring the parts of me that they don't understand to them anymore. They don't deserve those parts of me because they have proved they mishandle them and cause me harm.

In my opinion, there is not an easy way to make them understand or stop their behavior, instead it's more effective to accept them how they are, and figure out what is possible in your relationship with them and what is not. And keep what is not possible, safely away from the relationship.

Interestingly, this requires understanding and compassion for them that they are not extending to you, which can make it harder to do because it doesn't seem too fair. But it's not about beating them at their own game, it's about rising above it.

 

[The Emerald Archer]

@J Wick

Thanks for sharing your input, it takes a certain amount of vulnerability to speak about family. It can be such a sore spot for folks.

What ended up "fixing" things was moving out of my father's house. Two stubborn adult males living under one roof with different opinions on how to manage a household do not mix well.

Holy shit! This literally describes my exact situation! My dad moved and relocated for work almost a year ago, so that's helped a ton.

Yeah, we've been butting heads consistently, especially after college, but it's mostly been manageable up until there's a "crisis" that needs to be solved.

That's when we end up in shouting matches (happened 3 times in the past year-and-a-half).

You're right though. I truly believe at least 50% of my challenges (probably more) with my family will resolve once I leave the nest.

She "just wants me to be happy" which is a grossly in-congruent statement considering my actual desires and what she's prescribing me, and as a mother I would expect her to understand something so fundamental about her son. It's like my parents have an automatic response that they cannot turn off or examine.

Hahah yeah, it's funny when you get the "I just want you to be happy" response, but then their actions clearly say otherwise and it becomes clear they want you to make specific choices and use different controlling tactics to do so (withdrawing attention, acting disappointed/expressing disapproval, trying to get other people to speak to me and get me to make the "right" choice and the list goes on smh).

In my opinion, there is not an easy way to make them understand or stop their behavior, instead, it's more effective to accept them how they are, and figure out what is possible in your relationship with them and what is not. And keep what is not possible, safely away from the relationship.

Interestingly, this requires understanding and compassion for them that they are not extending to you, which can make it harder to do because it doesn't seem too fair. But it's not about beating them at their own game, it's about rising above it.

Well said man, well said. I definitely have some of my own stubbornness to work on, as well as not being such a hothead. I could definitely work on my empathy and compassion and understanding.

Thank you for that @J Wick! You seem to have a healthy dose of empathy, compassion, and understanding. I admire that.

I should also mention that my purpose for this thread was not just about dealing with family, but on defending against lying and manipulative people in general who use "dark tech."

Like those with personality disorders, folks who work in sales and marketing, recruiters, business owners, folks who work in nightlife, politicians, etc.

I'm a pretty strong-willed guy who is fairly disagreeable and "good enough" at boundaries and hard rules when dealing with most normal folks.

However, I've noticed that I still struggle when going up against users of "dark tech" like gaslighting and other scare tactics or manipulation.

As I'm looking to get into the workforce and corporate America, and because I aspire to be an entrepreneur and business owner, I want to be able to defend against "users" like lawyers, business partners, politicians, CEO's of companies, etc.

Basically, folks who use their social skills or for whom their social skills are a huge part of their livelihood, or exclusively how they make their living.

Ya know, the charismatic, charming, flattering, silver-tongued types who have good social skills, but are not Lightbringers.

How are we supposed to compete with people who do that every day for a living, even with the best material out there like Girls Chase?

 

[Chase]

Ah man, @The Emerald Archer, that's a shame it's your family doing that to you.

Like @J Wick notes one of the best things you can do around people who attack you over information you share is to simply not share it. When I've had folks around me who gaslit me on various things, once I figured out what things they were gaslighting me on, I just blanked them informationally on those things.

Then those relationships become much more pleasant!

e.g., if they're gaslighting you on career, just don't tell them about career stuff. If they ask you about the job hunt, they get something boring they can't much object to: "Yeah, I'm working on it." If they complain that you've been 'working on it' for months, just shrug. If you get a new job, don't say anything until many months in. Then at some point you can do the, "Oh, I changed jobs six months ago. You didn't know that?"

Then the only thing they have to complain about is that you didn't tell them. It's too late to complain about the job... by then it's 'old news'.

On your questions:

If someone is gaslighting you, what's the dominant and socially savvy way to respond?

In my experience the best way to respond is to tell her, in a very blasé voice, "Oh no, you're wrong."

When she insists you're being sensitive or your interpretation is weird or off, you just keep saying, in a very calm, nonchalant voice, "Nope. You're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about."

Basically: her gaslighting party is NOT engaging with your perspective, and is instead trying to dismiss it.

You respond by not engaging with HER perspective and dismissing hers... by calling it "wrong", "incorrect", "misinformed", "low EQ", and so on.

She will either a.) calm down and have an actual thoughtful discussion with you, or b.) slink off to go complain about you to someone else.

Either way, you either achieve understanding, or you get her off your back.

Is gaslighting a huge red flag? Should you be incredibly careful and vigilant around individuals who use this tactic (at least sometimes)?

It's not necessarily that these people are bad.

Often they are just low empathy or low EQ. They simply do not realize that there are perspectives other than theirs, that those perspectives may be equally valid, and that dismissing someone's emotions makes that person hostile.

I've had various friends and girlfriends who are like this. They can be attractive, fun, interesting people with strong opinions. But if your opinion differs from theirs on anything they can NOT accept it. So you either decide if these people are worth having in your life, at the cost of not being able to share everything with them (because then it leads to constant badgering, undermining, and sideways attacks), or if they're not.

Sometimes I will meet people like this and decide, "It is too annoying talking to this person, and not worth tolerating his disadvantages," and I just quit talking to the individual. Other times I will meet people like this and decide, "Well, s/he's quirky, but this is a great person, so I'll tolerate it."

Should you just expect gaslighting from people any time you directly confront them since lots of folks are conflict-avoidant nowadays and are afraid of being called out?

Have you ever read The Righteous Mind, by Jonathan Haidt?

The whole book is basically about consciousness as a mental PR rep.

People have a strong need to present themselves as consistent and as correct. Telling them they are wrong about things provokes a flurry of defensive responses. Gaslighting is one of them.

Opinionated people who lack a high EQ tend to end up in a lot of conflicts with others which they resolve by dismissing the other person's argument.

It'll go like this:

OPINIONATED PERSON: It's this way!​

​

SOMEONE ELSE: I don't agree with that at all. It's really that way.​

​

OPINIONATED PERSON: Then you're an idiot and your position's misinformed! You should get more educated!​

​

SOMEONE ELSE: You're being rude. My position is every bit as informed as yours.​

​

OPINIONATED PERSON: That wasn't being rude, you're too sensitive! I was just stating facts. It is a FACT that your position is misinformed!​

After a while you start to see through the argumentation they use and it becomes kind of amusing. It gets rather transparent and self-serving, the things that they say. But you need a fair amount of exposure to it, before you reach the point where it becomes, "Lol, everything he says is completely one-sided. There is zero ability to conceptualize what the other side is saying here."

Should I be concerned that I come from a dysfunctional family and/or a toxic one? How can I TEST for this?

Maybe.

There are some Reddit boards I've encountered in previous past Reddit forays that deal with this stuff... the best is probably this one:

raisedbynarcissists: for the children of abusive parents • r/raisedbynarcissists

This is a support group for people raised by abusive parents (with toxic, self-absorbed or abusive personality traits, which may be exhibited by...

old.reddit.com

There's a method I've seen recommended called "Grey Rock Method", where the object is to basically turn yourself into a 'gray rock'... boring, uninteresting, unemotional. Narcissistic people who love drama get bored of you, regard you as uninteresting, and leave you alone. I've done things like that a few times with annoying people I could not seem to get rid of for one reason or another. Get boring enough to them for long enough and they lose all interest in you.

Anyway... there are quizzes online for everything.

I just checked, and it looks like there are "dysfunctional family" quizzes too:

dysfunctional family quiz at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Same for "toxic family" quizzes:

toxic family quiz at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

I might take a couple of those and see what they come back with, to have a clearer idea.

Chase

 

[ElderPrice]

If you ask me, gaslighting is nothing more than a frame battle. Someone is imposing a frame onto you. The way to respond is like any other frame battle - put forth and hold a stronger frame.

 

[The Emerald Archer]

Ah man, @The Emerald Archer, that's a shame it's your family doing that to you.

Like @J Wick notes one of the best things you can do around people who attack you over information you share is to simply not share it. When I've had folks around me who gaslit me on various things, once I figured out what things they were gaslighting me on, I just blanked them informationally on those things.

Then those relationships become much more pleasant!

e.g., if they're gaslighting you on career, just don't tell them about career stuff. If they ask you about the job hunt, they get something boring they can't much object to: "Yeah, I'm working on it." If they complain that you've been 'working on it' for months, just shrug. If you get a new job, don't say anything until many months in. Then at some point you can do the, "Oh, I changed jobs six months ago. You didn't know that?"

Then the only thing they have to complain about is that you didn't tell them. It's too late to complain about the job... by then it's 'old news'.

Hey @Chase! Thanks so much for this!

Yeah, unfortunately, I come from a Middle-Eastern family where the authoritarian/domineering parenting style is more the norm (I think this is a terrible parenting strategy btw. Ask me how I know...).

I didn't realize this was a "getting attacked over information" social challenge. I guess I felt half-obligated to keep my parents in the loop since I'm still living under their roof, but I also think there's been some unconscious approval-seeking on my part that I'm slowly starting to unravel.

But holy smokes it makes perfect sense! Especially the "yeah I'm working on it" part. Although to be fair, I've been "working on it" for a while now haha oh well, them's the shakes

It's kinda sad honestly that some parents are like this to the point that their child has to keep things about themselves from their parents. And they wonder why I don't "open up" more haha smh.

In my experience the best way to respond is to tell her, in a very blasé voice, "Oh no, you're wrong."

When she insists you're being sensitive or your interpretation is weird or off, you just keep saying, in a very calm, nonchalant voice, "Nope. You're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about."

Basically: her gaslighting party is NOT engaging with your perspective, and is instead trying to dismiss it.

You respond by not engaging with HER perspective and dismissing hers... by calling it "wrong", "incorrect", "misinformed", "low EQ", and so on.

She will either a.) calm down and have an actual thoughtful discussion with you, or b.) slink off to go complain about you to someone else.

Either way, you either achieve understanding, or you get her off your back.

Ahhhhhh interesting, now I see. So by not engaging with their perspective and dismissing it as "wrong", "Low EQ", etc you're able to douse that little gaslighting flame, eh?

Wow, that's actually pretty cunning... I like it!

I'm already looking forward to the next debate where someone does this move cuz I'm gonna have some MEGA fun hehe.

It's not necessarily that these people are bad.

Often they are just low empathy or low EQ. They simply do not realize that there are perspectives other than theirs, that those perspectives may be equally valid, and that dismissing someone's emotions makes that person hostile.

I've had various friends and girlfriends who are like this. They can be attractive, fun, interesting people with strong opinions. But if your opinion differs from theirs on anything they can NOT accept it. So you either decide if these people are worth having in your life, at the cost of not being able to share everything with them (because then it leads to constant badgering, undermining, and sideways attacks), or if they're not.

Sometimes I will meet people like this and decide, "It is too annoying talking to this person, and not worth tolerating his disadvantages," and I just quit talking to the individual. Other times I will meet people like this and decide, "Well, s/he's quirky, but this is a great person, so I'll tolerate it."

Haha yeah, that pretty much sums up my parents and mom's side of the family. They literally have no clue how to voice their opinions in a savvy way, or even consider someone else's point of view. Again, kinda sad some folks are like this.

For the longest time, I thought empathy ran strong in my family members, but I now see that I was mixing it up with sympathy this entire time. Jesus H. Christ (excuse the language).

I personally don't mind girls who are opinionated in this manner (I do like 'em a little more on the feisty and strong-willed side after all )

But I'll also have to screen for empathy too, just because I feel like this would get too annoying after a while/I need to feel I can let people know where I stand on things and what I stand for and against, especially if they're close to me like a girlfriend would be.

Have you ever read The Righteous Mind, by Jonathan Haidt?

The whole book is basically about consciousness as a mental PR rep.

People have a strong need to present themselves as consistent and as correct. Telling them they are wrong about things provokes a flurry of defensive responses. Gaslighting is one of them.

Opinionated people who lack a high EQ tend to end up in a lot of conflicts with others which they resolve by dismissing the other person's argument.

It'll go like this:

OPINIONATED PERSON: It's this way!
SOMEONE ELSE: I don't agree with that at all. It's really that way.
OPINIONATED PERSON: Then you're an idiot and your position's misinformed! You should get more educated!
SOMEONE ELSE: You're being rude. My position is every bit as informed as yours.
OPINIONATED PERSON: That wasn't being rude, you're too sensitive! I was just stating facts. It is a FACT that your position is misinformed!

After a while you start to see through the argumentation they use and it becomes kind of amusing. It gets rather transparent and self-serving, the things that they say. But you need a fair amount of exposure to it, before you reach the point where it becomes, "Lol, everything he says is completely one-sided. There is zero ability to conceptualize what the other side is saying here."

LOL at that argument. Sounds eerily familiar... haha.

I haven't read the Righteous Mind, but I have heard of Jonathan Haidt. Actually, I think you've mentioned him quite a few times, but that subject matter sounds fascinating!

I admit I've slowed down on reading books the past few years (smh), but I'll have to look into this book and hopefully use it to start a reading habit again.

Thank you for this recommendation Chase!

Maybe.

There are some Reddit boards I've encountered in previous past Reddit forays that deal with this stuff... the best is probably this one:

raisedbynarcissists: for the children of abusive parents • r/raisedbynarcissists

This is a support group for people raised by abusive parents (with toxic, self-absorbed or abusive personality traits, which may be exhibited by...

old.reddit.com

There's a method I've seen recommended called "Grey Rock Method", where the object is to basically turn yourself into a 'gray rock'... boring, uninteresting, unemotional. Narcissistic people who love drama get bored of you, regard you as uninteresting, and leave you alone. I've done things like that a few times with annoying people I could not seem to get rid of for one reason or another. Get boring enough to them for long enough and they lose all interest in you.

Anyway... there are quizzes online for everything.

I just checked, and it looks like there are "dysfunctional family" quizzes too:

dysfunctional family quiz at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Same for "toxic family" quizzes:

toxic family quiz at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

I might take a couple of those and see what they come back with, to have a clearer idea.

Chase

Never heard of the "Grey Rock Method", but I'll keep this one in my utility belt for future use.

I have heard of that Reddit board before, and I was scrolling through some of it, and man... those sound like some awful parents!

My parents weren't anywhere near that bad, more just overbearing/over-controlling who were strict growing up. Like very similar to Asian and Indian parents. Tons of criticism, high expectations, lack of boundaries, etc.

But I did get smacked (with the belt, hands, and wooden spoon) back in the 90s and a handful of times in the early 2000s when it was (mostly) still regarded as normal.

It wasn't too excessive, but enough to make me swell with anger whenever I begin flashing back to some of those memories. I think it sends a terrible message to kids, is a blatant abuse of power, and breeds long-term resentment towards parental figures even later into adulthood (at least for me).

I didn't realize Narcissism was that bad. I had always interpreted it as very arrogant and SUPER self-absorbed/self-centered, plus the need for attention and the spotlight.

I thought it was bad mainly because of how we're "taught" that those egotistical traits are "bad" in Western Society is (but then again, who wants to listen to Western Cultural Programming anyways?).

I'll look into those quizzes a little more thoroughly, plus do a little more research and report back to this thread.

As always, I appreciate your Master Yoda-esque social analysis on all of this Chase!

- Emerald


@ElderPrice

If you ask me, gaslighting is nothing more than a frame battle. Someone is imposing a frame onto you. The way to respond is like any other frame battle - put forth and hold a stronger frame.

That is an excellent perspective and a good reminder of just how important frame-control is.

@ElderPrice Thank you for this!