Break Ups How to proceed with an ambiguous breakup

[enrico]

I know during a break up you should go no contact. My girlfriend caught me lying and decided to break up with me but has kept communication open. Because I lied and hurt her I understand she's in auto rejection right now and a little conflicted.

When we've been talking it flips between me winning her back over and her starting an argument again. I'm unsure whether or not to initiate no contact at this point or keep communication open.

I know proximity can help win over auto rejection, keeping communication open I can get her to invest.

The very last communication was a bit blunt where we were meant to be going to a wedding, she decided she wasn't going but said I could collect my stuff when I was passing. I told her I could go and see her but I wouldn't collect my stuff, she got annoyed saying that I lied to her so what makes me think I have a decision, I should be making this easy for her. I told her that I wouldn't collect my stuff today, my priority is on going to my families wedding, she said ok and ended the call.

I'm conflicted between giving her a ball in her court style message, a I guess this is goodbye message, arranging to collect my stuff or just initiating no contact.

Enrico

 

[topcat]

My dude, she broke up with you. Stop trying to convince her she made the wrong decision, and allow her the space to decide that for herself. Pick up your stuff, go no contact, and do something constructive with your time.

You’re chasing right now.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @topcat I'm happy to collect my stuff and go no contact, I just didn't want to do it this morning on the way to my families wedding.

I'm clouded by the ambiguity of the break up, in the heat of the moment she asked me to delete her number and said she'd delete mine. I went home, went to bed and she called me and said she's decided to give me a chance and asked why I lied. She got annoyed, but then invited me over to talk. We flipped between being normal and her being very angry saying we're done.

I had to leave and she said we could talk on the phone that night. She called, during the call she said that her best friend thinks she should be completely done with me. I said how she thought the same to which she said she was still on the phone to me. Again we flipped between normal and her being very annoyed.

I know it's a form of auto rejection and the typical "he's a jerk!" breakup. The advice for auto rejection is to make them feel understood and the "he's a jerk!" breakup is they fear being hurt and feeling they can't get what they want with you.

I'm just cautious that no contact would play into her auto rejection thoughts that I don't care about her.

If you think going no contact from now is the best call I'll follow your advice immediately

Enrico

 

[topcat]

Thanks @topcat I'm happy to collect my stuff and go no contact, I just didn't want to do it this morning on the way to my families wedding.

I'm clouded by the ambiguity of the break up, in the heat of the moment she asked me to delete her number and said she'd delete mine. I went home, went to bed and she called me and said she's decided to give me a chance and asked why I lied. She got annoyed, but then invited me over to talk. We flipped between being normal and her being very angry saying we're done.

I had to leave and she said we could talk on the phone that night. She called, during the call she said that her best friend thinks she should be completely done with me. I said how she thought the same to which she said she was still on the phone to me. Again we flipped between normal and her being very annoyed.

I know it's a form of auto rejection and the typical "he's a jerk!" breakup. The advice for auto rejection is to make them feel understood and the "he's a jerk!" breakup is they fear being hurt and feeling they can't get what they want with you.

I'm just cautious that no contact would play into her auto rejection thoughts that I don't care about her.

If you think going no contact from now is the best call I'll follow your advice immediately

Enrico

Alright cool. Well the real problem here seems to be a lack of leadership. She’s acting erratic because she needs you to own the situation and decide on the move forward (do you want a relationship with her and if so what are you going to do to establish security?; and if not are you going to cut it off?).

Were it me, and i wanted to continue the relationship. I would meet up with her, addressing the reason for your past ambiguity. I would own the fact that i lied and address the underlying reason without making any overblown promises out of desperation. I would then give her the option to take it or leave it whilst letting her know my true honest feelings for her. After that if things are positive we continue to hang out watch a movie eat shag as per usual. If her mood were still low i would leave and give her the space to make her mind up trusting that she will reach out in due time.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @topcat so I've owned the situation, admitted to lying, explained that I done it in a backwards way to protect her and not hurt her because I knew she would be annoyed. That I understand I hurt and upset her, it hurt me that I hurt her and I should've been honest. If she doesn't want to be with me I understand, that I really care about her and that I love being with her and how she deserves better than to be lied to.

I've never asked for forgiveness or made stupid promises that I won't do it again. I've literally just took responsibility for my actions. When she says we're done she then asks me to agree to which I say you know I don't agree with breaking up, I still want to be with you but I understand if that's not what you want and I respect your decision.

There's no desperation to this, I've followed the advice for being caught lying and being caught red handed to accept responsibility. In the articles the girls accept this and they move past it, she half accepts it, we go back to normal and then she flips and starts another round of fighting, to which I rinse and repeat.

It's the rinse and repeat that now leaves me wonder do I go no contact now or keep in touch while she needs leading. I don't know if she needs leadership or space and it's conflicting me.

Enrico

 

[topcat]

Thanks @topcat so I've owned the situation, admitted to lying, explained that I done it in a backwards way to protect her and not hurt her because I knew she would be annoyed. That I understand I hurt and upset her, it hurt me that I hurt her and I should've been honest. If she doesn't want to be with me I understand, that I really care about her and that I love being with her and how she deserves better than to be lied to.

I've never asked for forgiveness or made stupid promises that I won't do it again. I've literally just took responsibility for my actions. When she says we're done she then asks me to agree to which I say you know I don't agree with breaking up, I still want to be with you but I understand if that's not what you want and I respect your decision.

There's no desperation to this, I've followed the advice for being caught lying and being caught red handed to accept responsibility. In the articles the girls accept this and they move past it, she half accepts it, we go back to normal and then she flips and starts another round of fighting, to which I rinse and repeat.

It's the rinse and repeat that now leaves me wonder do I go no contact now or keep in touch while she needs leading. I don't know if she needs leadership or space and it's conflicting me.

Enrico

go no contact

 

[enrico]

I initiated go contact yesterday, she messaged me this morning asking when I can come to collect my stuff. I told her I could come early this afternoon, she said she wouldn't be back till later if I could come then or would another day be best.

I told her another day would be best, she then replied saying we can just leave it, it doesn't matter anymore unless I want the stuff.

I don't know why it doesn't matter anymore, it mattered this morning, I assumed maybe she wanted to talk. I replied saying "if that's what you want, but they're yours they were made for you. If you want to sit and talk let's sit and talk."

She's replied saying "no but I don't want a reminder of you, so you can either get them or I'll bin them it's up to you"

I have no idea how to respond, I don't want the stuff back but if she bins them then there's no recovery. I don't know if she would actually bin them or if she's trying to provoke a response from me.

Enrico

 

[Chase]

What the heck was the lie about?

 

[enrico]

@Chase I lied about going to my friends birthday. She doesn't like my friend, she knew it was coming up there birthday so asked me when it was. I told her it had already been. She asked if I went, I told her I didn't, she said she didn't care if I did and asked again. I assumed she must've seen something on social media so admitted to going.

She went ballistic that I lied to her. I've been caught lying a couple times in a similar way where I come clean immediately after lying. These lies have all been grey lies designed not to hurt her, they're not malicious. About a month ago she said if I fuck up one more time she's done, I lied and that's the straw that broke the camels back. I still think she's over reacting, but I think she's so angry she might actually throw the gifts away which she'll regret if we patch things up.

I'm not sure if she's serious or trying to provoke a response

Enrico

 

[Will_V]

@Chase I lied about going to my friends birthday. She doesn't like my friend, she knew it was coming up there birthday so asked me when it was. I told her it had already been. She asked if I went, I told her I didn't, she said she didn't care if I did and asked again. I assumed she must've seen something on social media so admitted to going.

She went ballistic that I lied to her. I've been caught lying a couple times in a similar way where I come clean immediately after lying. These lies have all been grey lies designed not to hurt her, they're not malicious. About a month ago she said if I fuck up one more time she's done, I lied and that's the straw that broke the camels back. I still think she's over reacting, but I think she's so angry she might actually throw the gifts away which she'll regret if we patch things up.

I'm not sure if she's serious or trying to provoke a response

Enrico

If that's all the lie was she is way out of line to be going ballistic at you. Either she's batshit crazy or looking for a reason to break up with you.

Looks to me like you have very little frame in this relationship which results in her running roughshod over you at will with you trying to find ways to patch it up.

It's probably going to be difficult for you but you really need to get a grip on your own frame, make it clear to her that she isn't going to control your life and that you won't be accepting her bad behavior. And first of all that means being completely ready to walk away for good if she tries to test your resolve.

And ffs get your stuff or tell her to bin it, leaving junk at someone else's house is for women to do. If she regrets it so badly and you end up getting back together you can just tell her to give you a bj to make it up.

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Will_V this is all the lie was about, I agree she's way out of line to be going ballistic, I honestly thought she'd have cooled down after a day.

I think she has a tendency to be very dramatic which borderlines being bat shit crazy. She usually makes a big deal out of little things, I walk away, she phones and tries to clarify if we've broke up or insists we have, invites me over to talk, might get angry again but then we default to normal. I never apologise, beg or give in to her demands, she tries to run roughshod but it doesn't happen she just causes drama. I just see it as a shit test.

I can happily walk away and be done with her, she's said since day one she thinks she likes me more than I like her and I actually think it's true.

I do think and agree she's holding frame here but I'm not too sure how to get a grip on it. I thought I had it under control until she got talking to her friends who cheerlead her to cause drama.

I want to tell her she's over reacting but that looks dismissive of her feelings. Not too sure how to best frame it, would really appreciate any advice.

If it was my stuff I'd happily get it, it's gifts I've gave her that she wants me to get or that she'll bin. I'm in two minds about calling her bluff to bin it but I know she'll flip that around and frame it that I don't care. At the moment I've told her I'll come over (didn't say I'd get it) as I have more influence on frame in person.

Enrico

 

[TomInHo]

Thanks @Will_V this is all the lie was about, I agree she's way out of line to be going ballistic, I honestly thought she'd have cooled down after a day.

I think she has a tendency to be very dramatic which borderlines being bat shit crazy. She usually makes a big deal out of little things, I walk away, she phones and tries to clarify if we've broke up or insists we have, invites me over to talk, might get angry again but then we default to normal. I never apologise, beg or give in to her demands, she tries to run roughshod but it doesn't happen she just causes drama. I just see it as a shit test.

I can happily walk away and be done with her, she's said since day one she thinks she likes me more than I like her and I actually think it's true.

I do think and agree she's holding frame here but I'm not too sure how to get a grip on it. I thought I had it under control until she got talking to her friends who cheerlead her to cause drama.

I want to tell her she's over reacting but that looks dismissive of her feelings. Not too sure how to best frame it, would really appreciate any advice.

If it was my stuff I'd happily get it, it's gifts I've gave her that she wants me to get or that she'll bin. I'm in two minds about calling her bluff to bin it but I know she'll flip that around and frame it that I don't care. At the moment I've told her I'll come over (didn't say I'd get it) as I have more influence on frame in person.

Enrico

Sounds toxic

I remember this girl... isn't she the same girl that ended up alone with some guy after she went clubbing without you? Then you were debating rewarding her for being honest

And isn't she the same one that went ballistic on you when you said another girls name after sex? Then you try hard to appease her after using strategic position of weakness (which btw was a horrible move)

Also I agree she is over reacting about the white lies but I can kind of see her point. You know she's a high drama gal then you lie about being at a party with people she's not to fond of. Why didn't you just tell her you're gonna go anyways then see her after? Why is this relationship based on always walking on eggshells so you don't hurt her feelings?

Hopefully it's starting to connect how the frame is all jacked up in this relationship. Because I find it so funny that women are constantly evaluating if their mates measure up to standard in LTRs yet men rarely seem to do the same

She's apparently free to pass judgment on you but you never thought for a second "Hey! Wait a minute... why am I accepting such rubbish behavior from this chick... hmmm maybe she ain't as cool as I thought and I should be with someone else"

Relationships are a 2 way street ya know, and you should BOTH be evaluating each other throughout the course of it and are BOTH welcome to end it if the other person doesn't measure up to your needs and goals

You can BOTH be the prize, and in this scenario it's clear as day that only one person is the prize

This may sound cold but if I were you I would personally cut contact with this chick, learn from my mistakes and focus on someone else that's less of a headache

See this as a blessing

 

[Skills]

@Chase I lied about going to my friends birthday. She doesn't like my friend, she knew it was coming up there birthday so asked me when it was. I told her it had already been. She asked if I went, I told her I didn't, she said she didn't care if I did and asked again. I assumed she must've seen something on social media so admitted to going.

She went ballistic that I lied to her. I've been caught lying a couple times in a similar way where I come clean immediately after lying. These lies have all been grey lies designed not to hurt her, they're not malicious. About a month ago she said if I fuck up one more time she's done, I lied and that's the straw that broke the camels back. I still think she's over reacting, but I think she's so angry she might actually throw the gifts away which she'll regret if we patch things up.

I'm not sure if she's serious or trying to provoke a response

Enrico

Dude you need to grow some balls, it seems most of the forum guys totally feminine type roles, jesus! no wonder why the girls act like this, women will behave as how you allow them to behave, i guarantee you if i was dating her she would not be acting like this.... no way jose!

A relationship should be you taking leadership, control jump how high type shit! no you walking on egg shells scare of confrontation and upsetting a girl... dude, you totally lack frame.... you need to lift your skirt and see if you have cojones/balls somewhere....

 

[Chase]

Why doesn't she like your friend?

Is he a drug dealer/ex-con/serial philanderer?

Even then:

Looks to me like you have very little frame in this relationship

Yes. Why aren't you able to tell this woman, "I'm going to John's birthday party," and then just go?

If she goes ballistic at you ("You KNOW I don't like John!") you need to be able to handle it then, rather than try to conceal your damn friends from her and then look both scared AND duplicitous when that comes to light later.

You just didn't want to put your foot down on the drama then, so gave your future self a serving of drama 5x worse for later.

I remember this girl... isn't she the same girl that ended up alone with some guy after she went clubbing without you? Then you were debating rewarding her for being honest

Oh, wow. Really?

So she can go home with random dudes, but you can't see your (male) friend on the dude's birthday...?

I'm having trouble imagining a relationship where I'd be fine with either of those things, let alone both together.

I don't care if the chick has E-cup tits and an itty-bitty waist... nope, still cannot imagine it.

Dude you need to grow some balls, it seems most of the forum guys totally feminine type roles, jesus! no wonder why the girls act like this, women will behave as how you allow them to behave, i guarantee you if i was dating her she would not be acting like this.... no way jose!

A relationship should be you taking leadership, control jump how high type shit! no you walking on egg shells scare of confrontation and upsetting a girl... dude, you totally lack frame.... you need to lift your skirt and see if you have cojones/balls somewhere....

+100.

@enrico. Dude.

Check out the articles on Cluster B chicks:

Spotting (and Avoiding) Cluster B Women

As you grow and mature, learning how to get better with women, some interesting things will happen to you as a man. Some things that seemed exciting begin to lose their thrill, while other new possibilities will pop up and prove themselves to be even more exhilarating than your earlier...

www.girlschase.com

Girlfriend with Borderline Personality Disorder: You Must Escape

Girlfriends with borderline personality disorder can be the sexiest, most intoxicating partners you will ever have. They are also the most damaging ones you can have, and you should run. Lately I have been hearing from more and more guys dealing with girlfriends afflicted with borderline...

www.girlschase.com

Also this one by Ricardus:

Relationship Control and Female Domination

Have you ever noticed that in almost every relationship… sooner or later, but often right from the start or at least very early… one of the two partners is more emotionally involved than the other? And that it's invariably the other of the two who retains the most relationship control? That one...

www.girlschase.com

Also this one just for good measure:

Men are Penetrators. Women are Receivers

A man’s ability to penetrate defines him, just as a woman’s capacity to receive defines her. But it isn’t just physical penetration: it’s mental and emotional too. What is different between woman and man? In 1908, Sigmund Freud introduced the concept of ‘penis envy’ in his article “On the Sexual...

www.girlschase.com

You need to get your mind right, my man.

Chase

 

[enrico]

Thanks @TomInHo this is the same girl, the strategic position of weakness was horrible after I said another girls name in bed which is why I haven't used it here. I'm not very experienced in relationships and used the tactic at the completely wrong time. I've learned from that mistake.

She is overreacting but like you I can also see her point. Originally when she asked me if I was going I told her that I didn't know because I had a lot on and had to be up early which was true, so she asked why I didn't tell her when I decided to go which was a last minute decision from me and I turned up late and left early because of what I had on with work.

She used her recent interactions where she's text me and asked if it's ok if she goes somewhere. I've never asked her to do this and I don't particularly feel like I need to ask her for permission.

As for passing judgment, when this got brought up she said how she told me the next day where I didn't tell her I went until days later and if she didn't ask about it I'd have never have told her. I didn't think telling her I went to my friends party for an hour had to be mentioned.

You're right the frame is all jacked up, when she gets angry like she is now everything is black and white and it's impossible to deny she has text and asked permission and I haven't and saying I don't need to isn't reassuring to her, not that I'd promise to do the same.

I clearly really like her but I do need to bulldoze this frame and take control. I do think cutting contact and learning from this is the better option.

Enrico

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Skills I've thought before that girls act how they can get away with and I've thought a few times when she's been angry at these things how am I letting her get away with this behaviour? I've never really known how to shut it down without belittling her feelings.

I've also tried to be laid back, unmoved and unemotional in the face of it, which means I'm not matching her every levels and creating a bigger disconnect. I should really allow myself to match her energy so she knows I won't accept it. A bit too late for that now I guess.

I need a better, stronger frame while I've tried to be to smooth with turn arounds when she acts up.

Enrico

 

[enrico]

Thanks @Chase I've gave all those articles a read, I wish I read them all sooner!

She doesn't like my friend because she doesn't like her. They seemingly don't get on, she thinks I've slept with her and the last time they were both out after my friend said hi she had her back turned to her all night, kept bumping into her, talking to me and not acknowledging her so she doesn't like her. There's no real reason behind it over than this behaviour towards each other.

I do need to handle it then, put my foot down and tell her I'm going, though when she asked I wasn't sure if I was because of work. I told her I'm thinking of going but I'll have to see, I've got a lot on and have to be up early. It was a last minute decision to go which I've since explained, she then asked why I didn't text her to tell her, honestly I don't think I need to do this.

Yes really for her going home with a guy (friend), though that sounds worse than it is. On the surface I was ready to dump her for that but that would've been an overreaction. There's a thread about that situation.

My friend that she doesn't like is a girl. She didn't say that I can't go but she made it crystal clear she didn't want me to go.

I've checked out the articles. I do need to get my mind right.

Enrico

 

[enrico]

@Chase @Skills @Will_V @TomInHo
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not denying that my frame here is awful and she's currently in power, but the break up comes from me hurting her causing her to feel too unstable, insecure and that she can't have me.

It's an auto rejection "he's a jerk!" style break up which doesn't usually come from the one up in the relationship. I'm not saying I have power here but it's a weird dynamic.

She phoned me in the early hours of this morning to arrange me collecting the things and she engaged in small talk asking how the wedding was etc so I asked how her night was, she said it was ok, I questioned ok and she said "because we're not ok, so my nights not going to be good".

It just seems so out of character to how angry she was when wanting to break up. I don't think it's what she wants, I just don't know how to lead her through this without seeming over invested or disregarding her feelings telling her she's overreacted. I need to take control of the frame but I don't know how to do this and pace her reality.

Enrico

 

[Alpha13SC]

Look man. It s not just about what you do/you don t do, but also how you re dealing and respond to drama.

Presuming this break up from her part is because you made her feel insecure. Even in this situations you want to act strong and decisive. You can give her an emotional reassurance that she s the girl you want, but in the end, she has to behave. If you Ve been a jerk all the time, continue being a jerk, dealing with what made her insecure.

Also, females are using guilt trips and all kind of things to made you break. Disgusting. You re the man. Be aware of that shit.

 

[Will_V]

Thanks @Will_V this is all the lie was about, I agree she's way out of line to be going ballistic, I honestly thought she'd have cooled down after a day.

I think she has a tendency to be very dramatic which borderlines being bat shit crazy. She usually makes a big deal out of little things, I walk away, she phones and tries to clarify if we've broke up or insists we have, invites me over to talk, might get angry again but then we default to normal. I never apologise, beg or give in to her demands, she tries to run roughshod but it doesn't happen she just causes drama. I just see it as a shit test.

I can happily walk away and be done with her, she's said since day one she thinks she likes me more than I like her and I actually think it's true.

I do think and agree she's holding frame here but I'm not too sure how to get a grip on it. I thought I had it under control until she got talking to her friends who cheerlead her to cause drama.

I want to tell her she's over reacting but that looks dismissive of her feelings. Not too sure how to best frame it, would really appreciate any advice.

If it was my stuff I'd happily get it, it's gifts I've gave her that she wants me to get or that she'll bin. I'm in two minds about calling her bluff to bin it but I know she'll flip that around and frame it that I don't care. At the moment I've told her I'll come over (didn't say I'd get it) as I have more influence on frame in person.

Enrico

What is lacking here is leadership. You do not have a clear idea of what you want and expect from her, and you are not going in and setting a frame around things that have happened so that she can then respond to that frame (by presenting some objection or by falling on line).

Do you have a clear idea of what you you've done wrong? What she's done wrong? How you want things to be from now on? Once you have that rock solid in your mind, you need to go to her and lay it all out clearly, in detail.

That is how you get the frame back. Because right now what's happening is that she's feeling that you're weak, deceptive, wishy-washy, and submissive to her, which is not what she wants. She wants a guy who knows what he wants, doesn't hide it, doesn't put up with any bs, is clear about his intentions, his direction, and is ready to take care of her as long as she submits to him. That's what makes her feel secure enough to be soft and sweet. But right now you're the soft one. So she's flailing around trying to either get rid of you or provoke you into becoming what she needs.

I don't know how to explain it, but you have to clarify things in your own mind and then become utterly resolute in your frame, not because of any desire to win her back but to establish in yourself the knowledge of who you must be in all your relationships. This is leadership - it is when you are the one who has to deal with uncertainty and make hard decisions with no one to give you any signals or guarantee you of having done the right thing. And all she has to do is agree and follow. Whereas she feels right now that this is what she has to do, because you are following her around like a puppy. And she hates that. She wants to be the puppy. And to do that you have to validate her feelings, and then put her in her place. And if she wants to go, let her.