How to proceed with neither YES nor NO ?

[skyer]

Hello,

About one year ago I met a girl at a friends place; we had a great conversation and at first I was not really interested in her but soon later I got strong feelings for her. I saw her 2x more (but at parties, i.e. not alone) before we both left for Christmas. After Christmas I wanted to ask her for a date and was very excited returning but then she wrote me she won't be back unexpectedly for one year (incl. the reason). We stayed in contact, wrote many messages over the year (but I tried not to get too detailed to not risk becoming a "pen pal").

She returned very recently and we met two weeks ago. It was not officially a date (at least it was unclear) despite being a nice dinner in the evening with her. However the setting was not optimal: She was there slightly earlier and picked a table next to the aisle (busy & loud) and I could just sit opposite of her (no touches possible). Still we had a good time and at some point I told her I have feelings for her.

I don't remember the details but she was very "surprised"(?). She said she didn't expect this because she thought I had a girlfriend (which I had one year ago). Also we would't know each other so well and "you need to become good friends first before you can have a relationship" (or similar). And she said something like "wow, that must take so much courage to say this". I stayed friendly & calm, it soon ended (and I insisted paying). On my way home she texted me twice something like "I'm already on the bus, you too?" which I just replied in a quick & polite but not warm manner.

I took it as a rejection, deleted her number & messages, unfollowed her on FB and started to get over it. Then one week later I suddenly got a text from her. After 2 messages she asked me if I want to meet. We met for a walk and I was sure she wanted to tell me that she just wanted to be friends with me. It was a great 3-4hr walk but ... she didn't say anything or mentioned it in any way.

Now I feel the initiative is again more on me. We meet again tomorrow. But I don't know what to do - I am completely confused. Why did she do that?

• Did she just want to compensate bad feelings she had "rejecting" me?
• Does she want to be friends with me but does not have the courage to tell me?
• Does she want to give me the "chance" to get us know better (as she somehow mentioned)?
• Is she indeed interested but not pro-active?

But more importantly, what to do when we meet tomorrow?

• Ask her (again) directly for the status so I know where I stand?
• Try to get more intimate/touchy (that's not easy in absence of a right situation, specifically for me), even if she may not want it?
• Just continue without specific actions?

How initiative should I be? Should I continue to initiate meetings/text her or wait until she initiates (or drop)?

Thank you so much!




PS: I tried to be as compact as possible, hence I omitted many details. I just saw https://www.girlschase.com/content/cant- ... more-girls . I actually meet and met many girls the last year, however nothing resulted in a "real" relationship. I need to admit I was still thinking about her a lot and I feel I never had such strong feelings before. But I can accept if it does not work out (as written I started already before she got back to me), I'm also realistic enough that she is not perfect but I do not want to waste a chance ...

 

[Raqimus]

I took it as a rejection, deleted her number & messages and was about to get over it. Then one week later I got a text from her. After 2 messages she asked me if I wanted to meet. We met for a walk and I was sure she wanted to tell me that she just wanted to be friends with me. It was a great 3-4hr walk but ... she didn't say anything.

I feel the initiative is again on me and we meet again tomorrow. But I don't know what to do, I am completely confused. Why did she do that?

• Did she just want to compensate bad feelings she had "rejecting" me?
• Does she want to be friends with me but does not have the courage to tell me?
• Does she want to give me the "chance" to get us know better (as she somehow mentioned)?
• Is she indeed interested but not pro-active?

But more importantly, what to do when we meet tomorrow?

• Ask her (again) directly for the status so I know where I stand?
• Try to get more intimate/touchy (that's not easy in absence of a right situation, specifically for me), even if she may not want it?
• Just continue without specific actions?

Who initiative should I be? Should I continue to initiate meetings or wait until she initiates (or drop)?

I'm going to be harsh.

She met with you because she wanted to fuck you. She didn't say anything because she wanted you to make a move, there was tension. No fuck the talking get to fucking. Dont ask her where you stand (Don't ever do that you havent fucked her what makes you think thats good? Just noooo)

You dont have a plan with this girl and you are expecting her to lead things. No she is the women and is expecting you to lead but your both just wandering around with your head cut off. You've known this girl for quite some time, she has met with you, and even after you confessed your feelings(dont do this :/) This girl is giving you many chances. She likes you. Move things forward to the bedroom only then can you really feel dont bring up "where you stand" until she brings it up; its weak.

Initiate a meeting at your house, invite her over for some wine or dinner or something and make a move to atleast kiss her. Shes giving you the opportunities and your not taking them. She is literally saying "Skyer come fuck me" and your like "Nooo...maybe, yes but nooo, i dont know". It's a bit confusing for the girl because you gave verbal indication you liked her but made no physical move.

It would be completely normal for you to invite her over at this point.

 

[skyer]

Hi guys,

thanks for your responses! Ahead, just a disclaimer: I'm not interested in getting girls into bed as quickly as possible. I'm looking more for a genuine relationship (not necessarily longterm); I'm happy to meet a couple of times before sex . If GC is not the right place just let me know

I waited with my response after I met her today. Unfortunately at the time of writing we already set up meeting in a park in late afternoon with dinner afterwards.

Regarding confessing my feelings on the first date: Ok, maybe it was wrong. However, from the point of view of the evening I felt having no choice: I knew I needed to do something and I couldn't go home without any action: Even if I got rejected I did something. There was no option to get more intimidate so I decided to tell her at least. Would I have gone home without having done anything I felt even worse. Not sure what (realistically) would have been the right thing to do ...

Generally your answer(s) gave me clear motivation how to proceed: thanks! However, I do not agree that it's clear she likes me and just intimacy would solve it. If she would just wait "to be touched" then she would immidiately react on it, if she would really like me she would be more initiative. I'm still not sure if she does it because of bad feelings, because she wants to be friends or just see how things evolve.

Anyway, back to our date today: Although she did not reject me I do not feel good. I don't feel having made much progress. She's really cute but after interacting more with her I also start to doubt my actual interest in her. She is weird and her actions make no sense.

Today I tried (and did) touch her a lot. On one hand she was never rejecting me (e.g. pulling back) but she also did not really react to it or touched me (she touched me a couple of times when she was excited but just not much and maybe 100x less than I did).
When we met I gave her a hug (as explained https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fftNf-bDUY0), I think she liked it. I tried to hold a bit longer to see if she would pull back but indeed, she started pulling back after 2-3s.
I suggested to sit down on a bench; I did not feel she felt uncomfortable but I also did not feel she was specifically excited about it (e.g. she did not lean towards me), although I touched her, softly tried to put my hand around her etc: There was just barely a reaction. And once I even felt she was moving away a bit from me. For the dinner, again the bad luck sitting opposite of her (there was no other option). She touched my hands 1-2x over the table but as said, it felt too rare to me. Overall, I just did not feel I could have moved it forward more than I did.

Apart from that, we again had a great time, spent 3-4h, she laughed about all my (mostly silly) jokes etc. Unfortunately I'm booked for the rest of the week (and I don't want to cancel friends' meetings for her in that situation) and she can't Sun-Tue (although her excuse sounded artificial to me) so we mee again in one week. This time I invited her home (it's not perfect, I live in a 2 people shared apartment) but maybe it gives me time to learn better what I should do. Maybe even (trying to) forget her?

Aside: I also have a small present for her (and while being with her today in a store, found something else she would like) but I'm not sure if it's the right time to give her a present (and make me appear too needy). On the other hand it may be a chance to swing by her place tomorrow night after my meeting ("are you at home by any chance? I've a little something I would like to bring you").

 

[ray_zorse]

Ahh dude dude let's tackle this piece by piece shall we.

thanks for your responses! Ahead, just a disclaimer: I'm not interested in getting girls into bed as quickly as possible. I'm looking more for a genuine relationship (not necessarily longterm); I'm happy to meet a couple of times before sex . If GC is not the right place just let me know

Fine fine I'm something of a r/ship guy myself, but she'll always be in "assessing you as a potential mate" mode until you lay her, after that you'll be stamped "approved for mating". The first part is bloody difficult and littered with pitfalls, so the sooner you get out of it, the better your chance of having a r/ship with her.

I waited with my response after I met her today. Unfortunately at the time of writing we already set up meeting in a park in late afternoon with dinner afterwards.

Wrong wrong wrong, meeting in the park is great, why commit to something more? Taking her to dinner would be a great way to reward her for having sex with you, but with your plan I can see it going 2 ways (1) she isn't that into you, doesn't invest, acts aloof and disinterested, you reward her with dinner... looks very chasey and like you don't value yourself, or (2) she's totally into you, investing with touch etc, acts very into you... but goes off the boil during the long dinner.

Regarding confessing my feelings on the first date: Ok, maybe it was wrong. However, from the point of view of the evening I felt having no choice: I knew I needed to do something and I couldn't go home without any action: Even if I got rejected I did something. There was no option to get more intimidate so I decided to tell her at least. Would I have gone home without having done anything I felt even worse. Not sure what (realistically) would have been the right thing to do ...

Right thing to do would have been what Raqimus told you. Go back and read his advice properly. What you did here was weak, you broke the tension because you couldn't handle the tension of not knowing what was going to happen. Next time be more patient, if you can't lay her the first time, just be a bit mysterious.

Generally your answer(s) gave me clear motivation how to proceed: thanks! However, I do not agree that it's clear she likes me and just intimacy would solve it. If she would just wait "to be touched" then she would immidiately react on it, if she would really like me she would be more initiative. I'm still not sure if she does it because of bad feelings, because she wants to be friends or just see how things evolve.

Dude she practically lit up a neon sign saying she liked you. When girls express attraction it's generally a bit subtle, that's why we have girlschase, to help us understand their language of attraction. Generally speaking, the hotter the girl the less she initiates. Why would she when tons of sexy guys are happy to do it?

Anyway, back to our date today: Although she did not reject me I do not feel good. I don't feel having made much progress. She's really cute but after interacting more with her I also start to doubt my actual interest in her. She is weird and her actions make no sense.

Her actions make no sense because you don't understand how women's attraction system works. Go read this article, and this one. In fact, go read articles till your eyes bleed (to borrow radeng's phrase) or until your dick falls off (another colourful phrase, see his advice above haha). Your problem here, is an extreme lack of seduction knowledge. Don't worry, we were all there at one stage or another, but I notice you're also somewhat rejecting the good advice you've been given -- maybe you don't mean to do this, perhaps it's just too contradictory to what you've learned about courting women and so on. But go do your research instead of arguing.

Today I tried (and did) touch her a lot. On one hand she was never rejecting me (e.g. pulling back) but she also did not really react to it or touched me (she touched me a couple of times when she was excited but just not much and maybe 100x less than I did).
When we met I gave her a hug (as explained https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fftNf-bDUY0), I think she liked it. I tried to hold a bit longer to see if she would pull back but indeed, she started pulling back after 2-3s.
I suggested to sit down on a bench; I did not feel she felt uncomfortable but I also did not feel she was specifically excited about it (e.g. she did not lean towards me), although I touched her, softly tried to put my hand around her etc: There was just barely a reaction. And once I even felt she was moving away a bit from me. For the dinner, again the bad luck sitting opposite of her (there was no other option). She touched my hands 1-2x over the table but as said, it felt too rare to me. Overall, I just did not feel I could have moved it forward more than I did.

Good man, but it was too late. Your behaviour wasn't congruent -- you'd already boyfriend-zoned yourself and told her you were going to court her, so the touch was quite off-putting to her because suddenly you were acting like a lover after previously having acted like a boyfriend. Probably you missed a window somewhat prior to this, which could also be a reason why she acted coldly -- after missed window they act like everything is fine, but they've switched internally into a different mode where they politely deflect everything you do. Or possibly you were just too timid and hesitant and didn't persist enough. As a general rule, if in doubt ask for compliance -- have her move with you, order her to sit somewhere or give you her hand or touch you or similar, if she does she's still down.

Apart from that, we again had a great time, spent 3-4h, she laughed about all my (mostly silly) jokes etc. Unfortunately I'm booked for the rest of the week (and I don't want to cancel friends' meetings for her in that situation) and she can't Sun-Tue (although her excuse sounded artificial to me) so we mee again in one week. This time I invited her home (it's not perfect, I live in a 2 people shared apartment) but maybe it gives me time to learn better what I should do. Maybe even (trying to) forget her?

No, no, no! 3-4 hours... my God man don't you value your time? Think how much work you could have got done in 3-4 hours... how much would you get paid? At $25/hr that's $100 worth of your time, did she give you $100 worth of value? Was she making doe eyes at you, making sex talk, rubbing your chest and pinching your nipples and telling you what a hot horny man you are and how sexy you make her feel? No, she was acting a bit aloof and you reward with $100.

Her excuse sounds artificial, NEXT. This ship has sailed bro. In general, if you boyfriend-zone yourself, you can sometimes turn it around as described in this article, but frankly I think it's a lost cause -- too slow, attraction expired.

Aside: I also have a small present for her (and while being with her today in a store, found something else she would like) but I'm not sure if it's the right time to give her a present (and make me appear too needy). On the other hand it may be a chance to swing by her place tomorrow night after my meeting ("are you at home by any chance? I've a little something I would like to bring you").

NO, NO, NO... burn the present. You can give her a present on her birthday after she's been sleeping with you for at least 3 months... even then, don't go overboard.

Ray

 

[skyer]

Right thing to do would have been what Raqimus told you. Go back and read his advice properly.

I'm not sure if I get it: Right thing in this situation would have been say nothing/do nothing and postpone it until later? As I said, I did not see there was chance to get more involved that evening ...

EDIT: I just wanted to add that here http://theartofcharm.com/podcast-episod ... riendzone/ it has been suggested getting the confirmation your're in the friend zone and move ahead if you get the "Let's just be friends" words (around 14:30, 28:00, ...) ... which initially motivated me to tell her.

Her actions make no sense because you don't understand how women's attraction system works. Go read this article, and this one. In fact, go read articles till your eyes bleed (to borrow radeng's phrase) or until your dick falls off (another colourful phrase, see his advice above haha). Your problem here, is an extreme lack of seduction knowledge. Don't worry, we were all there at one stage or another, but I notice you're also somewhat rejecting the good advice you've been given -- maybe you don't mean to do this, perhaps it's just too contradictory to what you've learned about courting women and so on. But go do your research instead of arguing.

I read both of them already and ... I'll do it again.
It's just so hard to believe that it's that simple, that all of this would run so subconciously, that there is is simple button that's turned. It's hard for me to believe that girls don't actually realize (meaning not subconciously but actually) when someone touches them. But anyway, as I mentioned I took the advice given (just the date has been set up already before that).

Or possibly you were just too timid and hesitant and didn't persist enough. As a general rule, if in doubt ask for compliance -- have her move with you, order her to sit somewhere or give you her hand or touch you or similar, if she does she's still down.

Maybe. Maybe it wasn't soft enough, wrong locations, wrong times. Whatever. I still do not feel comfortable in the touch business ... it feels kindof forced. I always need to find "reasons" for the touches. I always feel people realizing all the touches which makes me feel it's so obvious. (and this is the case: Some time ago a girl obviously "imitated" me with my touches; wasn't a big thing, just smiled and went ahead but it shows it's not just subconcious).

But probably I'm really just friend-zoned

As a general rule, if in doubt ask for compliance -- have her move with you, order her to sit somewhere or give you her hand or touch you or similar, if she does she's still down. [...] Her excuse sounds artificial, NEXT. This ship has sailed bro. In general, if you boyfriend-zone yourself, you can sometimes turn it around as described in this article, but frankly I think it's a lost cause -- too slow, attraction expired.

As I mentioned we agreed on another date next Wed and I invited her home. Is it worth another attempt or should I cancel it immideately/see if she'll make it in the first place?

In the former case, any specific tips, do's, dont's?
In any case I would like to have a definite decision for myself after that one.


Life's hard ...

 

[Raqimus]

You don't know if your friend zone dude lol, you haven't made any serious action towards it you never know! Just try to escalate, move tings forward! Get her to your house, if she doesn't come after all this you know where you stand... if she does you know where you should plant the flag and don't hesitate just fucking know

Also if you don't want to touch as much don't force it. Use it sparingly if you feel like your making it obvious, position yourself in a way that's easy to use touch if you have to. I don't use my hands all the time to touch but i may brush up against them or even do some silly shit like just poke them but that's my personality. Find you and use you.

 

[ray_zorse]

Yeah hey dudes I apologize that I skimmed a bit, just saw "we hung out for 3~4 hours and then she made some weak excuse about hanging out again" or words to that effect and assumed it was a NEXT type deal but if you've set up a hangout at your home then that's wonderful. I suggest to read articles about overcoming LMR (Last Minute Resistance) as there's a chance that seeing you as a potential boyfriend rather than a potential lover she will want to make out but save sex for later, if she says this, do not believe her as it's usually bullshit and never happens later. Anyway it appears she likes you so take it easy.
Ray

 

[skyer]

Hi guys,

Thanks! I wanna give an update and an updated question: How do deal with the current situation?

So as said we agreed on a next (4th) date where I invited her home (I already wrote I did not feel great after the last one). She ended up having excuses that she's very busy this week and move it to next week (this one). Today I texted her again.

After that, a common friend of us (who meanwhile knows of this and they've obviously talked) told me more or less: She's not interested in me (aka not attracted). To sum up: It's as I expected for a long time: I'm friendzoned, she likes me but does not feel anything and (this is the sad thing) is too chicky to tell me. Afterwards I also got the reply to my text: Friendly bla bla but nothing concrete.

As I already mentioned: I tried building attraction touch (see above). Also being fun and staying "cool" all times. But it really just seems hopeless to me. We have common friends so I'd like not to feel awkward seeing her again (which will happen). Maybe I started being not too much into her anyway since after meeting her 3x she feels too "wallflowery" for my lifestyle anyway. That being said, I still feel attracted to her and would still like to be together with her. Rejection hurts - but for the reasons above I'd be OK being "friends only".

Now the question: How to deal with it now and what to reply?

1.) Just ignore and forget her completely?

2.) Continue as if I would not know (from the common friend)? E.g. invite her again for dinner at my home (as agreed last week)? She'd probably find excuses why she can't meet. Even if, it would be the same as before ... (and hurt myself more)

3) Continue to pretend she likes me and continue as before. Actually same as (2).

4.) Tell her I wanna meet her (for a coffee or so) and tell her face-2-face she should be honest and tell me she's not interested?

5.) Do (4) just via text.

Obviously she does not have much experience with guys, hence I can forgive that it's more convenient to act that way. On the other hand I have the desire to let her know that this is not fair/immature and she should not do the same for whoever will be next.

Maybe she also thinks she can get away the easy way by just telling her friend (who would tell me) ... but I don't feel good about it. I feel I deserve getting a clear response (verbally or not) from her and not just being presented with this information over some "proxy". So the questions is basically to ignore it or confront her but I'm not sure what makes me a "higher value" person.

Thanks!