FR "If I kiss you I might as well fuck you". We did neither.

[Sensation]

So this is the third date in a row I've had that has gone nowhere. But this one has me confused.

I met her at a meetup at a bar. She came over and chatted up me and my buddy. She looked to be in her early 30’s, Spanish (Spain), big tits and ass. She wanted to dance so we danced a bit. Saw her again on my way out the venue where she was noticeably drunker. Said some guy was creeping on her and wanted me to hang around a bit. We hugged repeatedly. She stood so close to me so that while we talked my arm would brush against her tits. She suggested we grab a coffee sometime, so I grab her number. I went on my previous 2 dates without any kino on the girl before hand, so this lead certainly felt more solid.

We text a bit. I mention that I find her vivacious, and that I want to see that smile of hers again. We meet for drinks the following weekend.

She shows up in a dress that is not of the sexy variety, not the best sign. She sits across from me, which I do not prefer (just like my previous 2 dates). We do the usual chit chat. On a high point I grab her hand, and stroke it with the other. She pulls it away after 20 seconds. I give her some solid eye contact, and she holds my gaze for a bit, but not much. I make a gentle comment about her body at one point. She seems mature, has lived all over the world. Tells me she is single and lives alone. I take her hand a couple of more times over the next 1.5 hours stroking it for a couple of minutes at a time. We make stronger eye contact. She holds my gaze for more than 10 seconds at one point, and I can see her looking at my lips. I think finally I’m getting to her, then go the bathroom.

After returning I suggest that she come sit beside me. She says she’s fine where she is. This is not what I’m expecting at all. Maybe I should have asked her before I went to the can, when emotions were high. I give her some more eye contact, and think maybe she needs more time. After a while I ask her again to sit beside me, say I want to flirt with her. Nope. She says that she thinks that I must have gotten the wrong impression of her, and that she thinks that I’m looking for a one-night stand. This catches me completely out of left field. I ask her why she thinks that. She says it’s because I’ve held her hand repeatedly, and that I want her to sit beside me. She says she has to get to know someone better before sitting beside them. I ask her how many dates does she have to go on to let a guy sit beside her (hoping she realizes how stupid it sounds). She then says that sitting beside a guy is no big deal. Sure hon, whatever you say. When I made a comment about her kissing guys, she says “if I kiss you, I might as well fuck you”. Same type of comment I got from 2 field reports ago where the girl said “if I blow you, I might as well fuck you”. She did not blow me or fuck me.

Interesting to note that my date never made a comment about the eye contact, which was the most aggressive part of my game that night. Escalating the vibe does not get called out on, a wise man once said. I remind her that we haven’t even kissed yet, let alone me offering to take her home, so I was unclear as to why she thought I was going for SDL (I wasn’t, that’s what my second dates are for). She said she found me intimidating (the girl I laid in my last field report said the same thing.). She also said she found me handsome, funny, etc. but didn’t want to lead me on.

I have thought about it, and consider several possibilities as to why this went nowhere:
She is over 33 and wants to go on many dates before shit happens (like, God forbid, sitting beside a man)
She is insecure and thinks men only want her for one thing (she was actually a pretty cool chick)
I was too forward (it really didn’t feel like it to me, I was too wimpy on my 2 previous dates)
I didn’t qualify her enough (I think I did, keeping in mind that I make a point to not Oooh and Ahhh about everything little thing she brings up)

What is frustrating is that I’m not looking for a one-night stand. I’m open to possibilities, but it’s not coming across as such. Since I’ve started dating again recently, I feel I’ve been either not brave enough, or that I’m too much, and I don’t know exactly how to adjust my game. I’m either a cad, or can’t make solid eye contact (like my last date).


Edit: so I was searching some PU material I have and found these by Tyler Durden:
"Likewise, girls will leave a set as their buying temperature increases too fast, as an autopilot response. They think "I don't know this guy. This guy
knows what he's doing, and probably does it to all the girls. I'm getting out of here."
"as buying temperature increases, chicks have NATURAL tendency to throw themselves out of state. By gaming them, but pushing them AWAY, they have PERMISSION to ALLOW themselves to go deeper and deeper into state, because they don't worry that you'll exploit that and fuck them "after all, he did say hands off the merchandise.. I can feel this way, and he still won't fuck me"

So maybe she accused me of going for SDL because I got her hot (non-verbally) and she rationalized her feelings of horniness as something that was emanating from me, instead of something that was happening within her (due to ASD). If this is the case, then the fix is for me to do more pushing.

 

[mist]

So maybe she accused me of going for SDL because I got her hot (non-verbally) and she rationalized her feelings of horniness as something that was emanating from me, instead of something that was happening within her (due to ASD). If this is the case, then the fix is for me to do more pushing.

Looks like it friend.

You got her extremely hot despite her overt move at the beginning to frame this in a less intimate way.

Maybe you weren't thinking SDL, but provided how you write things navigated she spelled that's where her head was and then put it on you. Sort of a shit test, sort of a call for similarity and perhaps connection. IMO you should have owned it or not taken the frame since it came from her. All thoughts are a product of your own reality. If someone gives you a thought for your reality you don't have to take it. Furthermore thoughts and reality are not permanent fixtures.

Luckily for us moving those fixtures is spelled out as emotions you make her feel in the seduction process.

She's even shown you this

1. When you first met you guys were close af hugging and she wanted to go out with you. (Seems her temp and compliance was already high. Why didn't you seed a pull or pull then?) Cause feelings

2. Sitting with other men isn't a big deal, but because what's she feeling it is now. Wasn't a firm law for her before and probably not after. Cause feelings.

3. She held your hand back and was mirroring strong signs of sexual arousal. You went to the restroom and it seems it started going downhill from there. Some sort of crash. (It seems she dropped compliance when her arousal was much much higher than her comfort and similarity. FSC, ASD, provider hunting ect.)

Hmm...seems kinda sus huh haha. Been there. That fickleness will be to your benefit some day though. Girl says she won't fuck then does haha.

Also you might be going through some attainability/value woes. She like you was extremely aroused, but resistant to compliance and telling you "She needed to get to know you." to escalate the courtship in any way.

Persistence and frame. Keep pushing it.

You're sticking points in this interaction seem to be.

1. Falling into her frame after she emotionally crashed. You could reframe her ONS comment as sex positive and beneficial for the relationship (Set the frame. Don't debate logically. Emotions prevail), agree and amplify (I don't think this is the best move unless playful and even then you seem to have attainability issues), give her a weird look for saying something like that and start having her qualify and disqualify to the frames you are setting, start pulling back a bit at her faux pas, chase frame her for suggesting a ONS and disqualify yourself as what she's saying then set a better frame from that position.

Some ideas. I've had these work and blow up in my face for extending interaction and or getting her investing. I'm not perfect though and uncalibrated in its application, so BEWARE.

2. Striking when the irons hot. I'm not sure why you went on a date when she was so warm on first meet at a bar. I'm not understanding why your date was 1.5 hours or longer with the hardest frames being set being the ones most unhelpful to the courtship and by her.

I have this problem. Really trying to hone into the first 15 to 30 minutes in a conversation. It can be even faster too. Compliance , escalation windows, and frames. You can set verbal/nonverbal frames within seconds that will aid your whole seduction. She has to perceive it, but for the most part I think she already perceived you really positively and liked you quite a bit. She resorted to protective games due to that imo.

3. Leading and compliance. I'm seeing some action, but nothing makes me read you as a definitive leader and or compliance builder. (I'm working on it too Brody. When I post my FU you'll see haha).

4. Your conversation seems like it lacked similarity, connection, lover frames/second gen verbals, and making her qualify to your reality and interaction standards.

5. Too logical with women. They are emotional. It's a balancing act.

I ask her how many dates does she have to go on to let a guy sit beside her (hoping she realizes how stupid it sounds).

She's not going to. That's logical. She's feeling something and setting a frame. Nothing logical you say will change that. Part of her nature and also part of the unconscious strategies she has to select mates and protect herself.

Maybe you said this more playfully. In that case she had a perception and either assumes you accepted it and preceded or was in a frame battle with you. Not sure what she perceived.

IMO It seems you accepted it and more insidiously the undertones of not very positive beliefs of courtships and sex. There's no legitimate contest and counter frame. Her zero-sum reality prevailed.

Here are some field-tested things that I've gotten to make women get closer and get some compliance on dates

1. Show her something on your phone that requires her to move closer.

2. Make fun of her early in the interaction if she sits far away, walk in with her and choose the seats we'll sit in that will up the odds we can get closer or start close, let her sit first then just sit beside her like it's no big deal, navigate the conversation in ways that makes sense for me to get closer, have her sit then move her ( I see something on her interesting, I want her to see something, I just don't like sitting so far away when we're vibing, it's loud).

3. Seed something of mutual interest for isolation or a pull. Usually when she's bought in I almost feel like I could say anything. If she isn't I feel like it has to be MORE interesting or nothing really.

These are tested and have treated me very well infield. Still working on the sticking points you have as well so I won't speak too much.

Anyway great job man. Be glad for the experience and insights. I personally think this date is a good sign for you rather than something to be frustrated about.

Good luck and keep gaming friend.

TL;DR

Look into

1. Frames and out framing
2. Mixed Messages from women (buyers remorse, asd, fsc, shit tests)
3. Not taking her so seriously
4. Compliance ladders
5. Moving Fast
6. Leadership
7. Calibration
8. Decision making
9. Recovery actions when you fuck up attainability
10. Levelheadedness in the face of her spikes and crashes during seduction

I'll be looking into these as well friend.

 

[Lobo]

Reading over your report and seeing how in control of the frame the girl was, makes me think that you could use some mixed signals in your game(I see you mentioned it at the end). You've already complimented the girl and done some physical escalation. She already knows you want to fuck her. Telling her you want to fuck her more won't do anything. Which is what you see here.

Maybe I should have asked her before I went to the can, when emotions were high.

Yeah, always do your compliance demands after you spike her emotions. You dramatically increase your chances of getting a yes.
Although it is quite interesting how once you noticed a bit of an escalation window with her lips, you decide to bail lmao. Holding it in would have helped.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who isolated a girl, started making out with her and THEN used the bathroom. Like wtf, the order is all wrong. Piss before you get the girl horny. All you do is give her time to think about what's happening and let FSC roll right in as there is no better way to break immersion than by just leaving.

Another useful tool that you could use that has an even better effect than what Tyler Durden is mentioning is fractionation. Unless you can be subtle or natural about it, push-pulls can seem obvious and gamey. And this girl seems to know about normal "game" given how she knows how to resist basic escalation attempts.

After a while I ask her again to sit beside me, say I want to flirt with her.

this could work if you have some super sexy vibe with some nice nonverbals added in(communicate least effort or else you seem tryhard), but other than that it will flop. In her mind it means"come here to I can get closer to fucking you" so unless your razor smooth with it to the point she's COMPELLED to come... she's going to resist.

She says that she thinks that I must have gotten the wrong impression of her, and that she thinks that I’m looking for a one-night stand. This catches me completely out of left field. I ask her why she thinks that. She says it’s because I’ve held her hand repeatedly, and that I want her to sit beside me. She says she has to get to know someone better before sitting beside them. I ask her how many dates does she have to go on to let a guy sit beside her (hoping she realizes how stupid it sounds).

You were caught off guard. Shit happens. But ask yourself, what was the point in exposing her resistance to you? ALL this will do is strengthen her frame. This is ASD at its finest. Girls want sex, and she seems like a horny latina based on some of her uncontrolled expressions. Why would she then be saying she doesn't want sex? It's because she currently doesn't want it with you.

The last thing you should ever do though, is take her seriously.

You could instead do a few things here:
From your type of game, I would recommend something simple but deadly. IGNORE THAT SHIT and REFRAME.

girl "you got the wrong impression of me. I don't do one night stands"
you"(skeptical look) Woah...
you need to slow down there missy(serious expression)
I've noticed how you've been eyeing me ALL night(lean back in your chair), you can barely keep yourself together(sexy voice, and a little tongue in cheek). And look, sex is cool and everyone should be having it, BUT IM NOT THAT TYPE OF GUY OK. If you want to get in my pants, you're going to have to do a bit more than one date. Just throw a bunch of chase frames at her. Maybe she laughs, maybe she gets aroused. All i know is this is way better than what you said.

If you want to do more than that and be a tad more covert.

You can do a pace and lead, after questioning her a bit(because she did make a bold accusation there, which you can honestly gaslight a bit).

"Really?(super curious, maybe even lean in a bit with a slight skeptical look for the gaslight)What makes you say that."
Girl:"yada yada"
you "(pause for a moment). hmm... You know, I think I get what you mean... I actually... have a few girls friends who tell me from time to time, how horrible their experiences are with some men... and honestly, its just fucking weird"
"all guys want to ever do is fuck, isn't it crazy?"
girl" yea, they don't care at all about the girl blah blah"
me:" but personally... I'm going to have to tell you a little secret(hook her in more, and drop your volume), I actually don't like sex"

Good sex Bad sex gambit. This is good to reescalate the vibe and sex talk. While DODGING the FUCK out of her shitty frame. If her mind is not on "i don't do one night stands" and is instead thinking about GOOD sex... her bullshit rule doesn't exist anymore.

Instead of going into that gambit, you can also go a more connection focused route(which it seemed liked you needed there).

you: "(pause for a moment). hmm... You know, I think I get what you mean... I actually... have a few girls friends who tell me from time to time, how horrible their experiences are with some men... and honestly, its just fucking weird"
girl: "yea, they don't care at all about the girl blah blah"
you" but you know... after hearing the way they talk... I know a dirty little secret about girls like you..."
girl:"what(she'll be super hooked rn)"
you:"you girls.... actually.... LOVE sex. BUT... not just any kind of sex. There's a difference."
you:" dry, ordinary sex where the guy comes in and pumps and chugs for like a minute, and you're there wondering if "he's in yet" is a complete nightmare. And then before your even remotely CLOSE to getting off, the guy dumps his pathethic load and ditches you. I've heard this from my friends far too many times, its fucking lame.
girl: "omg yes"
you:"but the real problem here though, is that girls want more than just plain sex, they want something much more powerful.
And I've noticed that whats often missing here, is a powerful connection, where you feel your completely understood, and have TRUST in the guy your fucking(self point).

and then you can talk about what connection feels like

I have thought about it, and consider several possibilities as to why this went nowhere:
She is over 33 and wants to go on many dates before shit happens (like, God forbid, sitting beside a man)
She is insecure and thinks men only want her for one thing (she was actually a pretty cool chick)
I was too forward (it really didn’t feel like it to me, I was too wimpy on my 2 previous dates)
I didn’t qualify her enough (I think I did, keeping in mind that I make a point to not Oooh and Ahhh about everything little thing she brings up)

I think you could have fucked this girl date #1. You just folded to her frame.

Notice your language here

I ask her how many dates does she have to go on to let a guy sit beside her

before she "lets" a guy sit next to her? You've essentially given her all the control. She's the one deciding now, instead of the one complying.

 

[Sensation]

A few things to clarify:

1. When you first met you guys were close af hugging and she wanted to go out with you. (Seems her temp and compliance was already high. Why didn't you seed a pull or pull then?)

I didn't pull because she was pretty drunk and it was at a Meetup. Meetup has social circle concerns that one must be wary of. It can get very cock-blocky so I mainly use it to meet girls, and then do my business more privately later.

3. She held your hand back and was mirroring strong signs of sexual arousal. You went to the restroom and it seems it started going downhill from there. Some sort of crash. (It seems she dropped compliance when her arousal was much much higher than her comfort and similarity. FSC, ASD, provider hunting ect.)

I felt I had leveled up, and wanted to piss before I really got things going. I did the same thing in the last 2 field reports and it worked fine, they came right over. But maybe they were the exception, so from now on I'll take my pisses at the start of a run, not the end. I was just so sure at the time that everything would be fine.

1. Falling into her frame after she emotionally crashed. You could reframe her ONS comment as sex positive and beneficial for the relationship (Set the frame. Don't debate logically. Emotions prevail), agree and amplify (I don't think this is the best move unless playful and even then you seem to have attainability issues), give her a weird look for saying something like that and start having her qualify and disqualify to the frames you are setting, start pulling back a bit at her faux pas, chase frame her for suggesting a ONS and disqualify yourself as what she's saying then set a better frame from that position.

At the time, I fully believed that it was over with us. She seemed kinda offended, like I had tripped a circuit breaker in her brain, and she was not going to reset it. I knew something had happened, but I was not sure what, so I went into fact-finding mode to help me with future girls. On some level I still believe it was lost anyways because of her age and maturity. A girl in her twenties I would have taken less seriously. Having said that I have nothing to lose by trying, especially if I nip it in the bud before the vibe gets really bad. I won't get caught off guard by a girl doing that again.

2. Striking when the irons hot. I'm not sure why you went on a date when she was so warm on first meet at a bar. I'm not understanding why your date was 1.5 hours or longer with the hardest frames being set being the ones most unhelpful to the courtship and by her.

Explained above

I personally think this date is a good sign for you rather than something to be frustrated about.

The good sign from this date is that I learned I have more masculine power than I realized. I can't believe it was that easy to fry her brain, especially after the previous 2 dates went pretty shitty. Once I properly get my fuck on, reacquire some more confidence, get in better shape and a take care of a couple of other things, it could be really good.

Good luck and keep gaming friend.

Thank you for the post and the advice.

 

[Sensation]

I should make some clarifications, and if I clarified it in the post above I will mention that.

Although it is quite interesting how once you noticed a bit of an escalation window with her lips, you decide to bail lmao. \

Just following the pattern of my previous 2 field reports, but will now change that. Mentioned above: in short I took her state for granted.

You were caught off guard. Shit happens. But ask yourself, what was the point in exposing her resistance to you?

Explained in above post. In short: assumed it was over, knew something had happened, so went fact finding for science!

You could instead do a few things here:
From your type of game, I would recommend something simple but deadly. IGNORE THAT SHIT and REFRAME.

girl "you got the wrong impression of me. I don't do one night stands"
you"(skeptical look) Woah...
you need to slow down there missy(serious expression)
I've noticed how you've been eyeing me ALL night(lean back in your chair), you can barely keep yourself together(sexy voice, and a little tongue in cheek). And look, sex is cool and everyone should be having it, BUT IM NOT THAT TYPE OF GUY OK. If you want to get in my pants, you're going to have to do a bit more than one date. Just throw a bunch of chase frames at her. Maybe she laughs, maybe she gets aroused. All i know is this is way better than what you said.

This is what I should have done, even if I doubted that the girl is saveable. This shit is gold.

before she "lets" a guy sit next to her? You've essentially given her all the control. She's the one deciding now, instead of the one complying.

As stated already I was fact finding, so I was probing, not gaming. But only for this time, next time I accuse the girl of being a horndog.

Thanks for the post, I will heed your advice.