Is exchanging a relationship for sex wrong?

[Average]

Hey gentlemen

So, I don't think being polyamorous will work out in a tiny campus such as mine (at least, not at my level). I know that entering a relationship with a girl will result in social exposure and her reputation being affected by me. I also know that she'll spend time on me, when she can instead spend time with friends, studying, duties, etc (this was one of the reasons I didn't date as a kid. My low self-esteem issues resulted in me believing that I wasn't worthy of her sacrificing her time for me when she could work on getting/keeping her life in order)

I've always had the belief that people enter relationships in order to get married with the guy someday. But, since I have no intentions of getting married, I know that every relationship (romantic or casual) I get into will meet it's inevitable end. Which will result in the woman experiencing social, temporal and emotional consequences

All of this left me feeling as though entering any kind of monogomous relationship would be the wrong thing to do.

However, it seems to me that at my level, I need to enter monogamy in order to get laid as that is the only type of value that I can provide her in return. I don't mind being loyal, it's just the issues above (and my lack of experience in dating) that are kind of keeping me away from it.

Questions:

1. Is entering a relationship you know (but won't tell her until the magic runs out) is not geared for marriage, and will thus end, morally bad?
2. Is entering a relationship purely so you can get sex wrong, even though you're more than willing to provide the woman with the charming, magical, romantic experiences she's looking for?
3. Is combining 1 and 2 bad?

I'm basically asking for permission to do this, as I do not wish to fuck these girls up.

PS: I strongly believe that anti-slut defense is a lot higher since the campus is small. To the point that the entire school has agreed upon a curse that exists here: "The second you decide to actually remember someone's face, you will never go a day without seeing them again". That's why I don't think girls are willing to be as casual as they normally would, at least...not with a guy at my level. Still need to work on my game. Though, I'm still open-minded in this.

Any thoughts?

 

[Space]

I've always had the belief that people enter relationships in order to get married with the guy someday. But, since I have no intentions of getting married

You sense it right. It's worth noting that most of today's 'relationships' in some fashion. Always have the big picture in mind! This video is worth repeating, since the last time I posted it no one seemed to care. Proceed according to your best judgement!

Do you refer to South African or American campus life? I've heard American is a microcosm of its own, in Europe, it's not that big of a deal. Most campuses are in the main cities, as compared to the US, where they are in college towns.

 

[ThePhoenix]

... I need to enter monogamy in order to get laid as that is the only type of value that I can provide her in return.

This seems to go against one of the most basic tenets of this site, and one which I've seen supported by science and to a lesser degree personal experience: that far from improving your chances to get sex, offering a relationship in exchange for sex is more likely to destroy your chances of getting sex. I'd think this would be particularly true for a college student, who is likely to fair poorly on provider qualities.

I realize social consequences are greatly amplified in your situation, but I still think your mentality of "I need to give her a relationship to get sex" is counter-productive. Not that I'm an expert. But I think you'd be better served by either (i) trying harder to look for ways to date outside the college, or (ii) getting very good at communicating discretion. I think there may be some articles on the main site about the latter.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey,

Go ahead and enter in a relationship if you wish so, and don't worry about other considerations.

Whether you get into a relationship with a view of getting married, or of just getting sex, or whatever other reason, doesn't change anything to the fact that *eventually most relationships end anyway*.

Most people get into many relationships before they marry. Obviously only one of these (if any) will lead to marriage, and all others will come to a natural end. And then 70% of all marriages eventually end up in divorce. Do the math: it means that most relationships end eventually anyway.

Most guys do not enter a relationship because they carefully chose it. Instead, they get lucky with a girl, get sex, and the girl soon lock him in. Before he knows it, he's in a committed relationship, and he accepts it because of the comfort of easy access to sex - but it was not really because of a grand life design: he got lucky, and *she* decided to be in relationship with him.

Is it any different from what you propose? No. The only difference is that you know before you start, that it will end eventually. But this is already the case anyway like I said above. And at least, you do it by your own choice.

If it is more convenient on your case (campus life), just go ahead and do it! There are many things to learn from being in a relationship.

Seppuku

 

[Average]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Definitely a lot to think about, but I eventually incorporated the ideas into my current mindset.

I've always had the belief that people enter relationships in order to get married with the guy someday. But, since I have no intentions of getting married

You sense it right.

Dang man XD

It's worth noting that most of today's 'relationships' in some fashion. Always have the big picture in mind! This video is worth repeating, since the last time I posted it no one seemed to care. Proceed according to your best judgement!

That video does speak volumes. Thanks for sending it. I haven't seen that one of Jordan's videos specifically, but it is something he'd definitely say. It did however point out one of the reasons as to why I'm not a marriage fan myself which is the fact that I don't think that I'll find a woman that'll stick through that with me.

Do you refer to South African or American campus life? I've heard American is a microcosm of its own, in Europe, it's not that big of a deal. Most campuses are in the main cities, as compared to the US, where they are in college towns.

I mostly refer to the campus that I'm in specifically. Other campuses tend to be a lot bigger than this one, so I'm mostly trying to make the most of my situation

... I need to enter monogamy in order to get laid as that is the only type of value that I can provide her in return.

This seems to go against one of the most basic tenets of this site, and one which I've seen supported by science and to a lesser degree personal experience: that far from improving your chances to get sex, offering a relationship in exchange for sex is more likely to destroy your chances of getting sex. I'd think this would be particularly true for a college student, who is likely to fair poorly on provider qualities.

Yeah, I hold no provider value whatsoever.

I realize social consequences are greatly amplified in your situation, but I still think your mentality of "I need to give her a relationship to get sex" is counter-productive. Not that I'm an expert. But I think you'd be better served by either (i) trying harder to look for ways to date outside the college, or (ii) getting very good at communicating discretion. I think there may be some articles on the main site about the latter.

Honestly, the fact that you see the problem too makes me feel a bit better. I thought that I was overreacting since I couldn't find any answers to this. carrying out (i) would have been my go to answer if I lived closer to other campuses, but this school seems to be in the middle of nowhere. I am currently in the middle of applying (ii) so that I can hopefully ease them into it.

Hey,

Go ahead and enter in a relationship if you wish so, and don't worry about other considerations.

Whether you get into a relationship with a view of getting married, or of just getting sex, or whatever other reason, doesn't change anything to the fact that *eventually most relationships end anyway*.

Most people get into many relationships before they marry. Obviously only one of these (if any) will lead to marriage, and all others will come to a natural end. And then 70% of all marriages eventually end up in divorce. Do the math: it means that most relationships end eventually anyway.

Most guys do not enter a relationship because they carefully chose it. Instead, they get lucky with a girl, get sex, and the girl soon lock him in. Before he knows it, he's in a committed relationship, and he accepts it because of the comfort of easy access to sex - but it was not really because of a grand life design: he got lucky, and *she* decided to be in relationship with him.

Is it any different from what you propose? No. The only difference is that you know before you start, that it will end eventually. But this is already the case anyway like I said above. And at least, you do it by your own choice.

If it is more convenient on your case (campus life), just go ahead and do it! There are many things to learn from being in a relationship.

Seppuku

Damn bro, I don't even know where to start XD

But yeah, I never really looked at it like that. It also made me realize that I possibly could have gone my entire life phobic towards relationships as a result of the "it won't last" mindset. Which extensively, made me realize that there may have been a few years I wasted because of this. I thank you.

Because of how late I'm coming to the relationship party and also how sensitive the situation I am in, I likely need some refreshers on how to do this whole loyalty thing. So I'll cruise through the site for some relationship pointers.

Since I have no other strategies and it comes with it's own justifications and pros, I'll do the whole relationship-sex exchange. But I'm also going to keep an eye out for any alternatives to this, as there are some cons to doing this worth considering.

Thanks for all of the advice gentlemen!

 

[Fuck This]

Quick question...is there another university/college nearby where there is some overlap in social settings like bars and clubs?

I had the luxury of another state college campus less than 10 miles away. It was a bigger college, and provided some social anonymity if I wanted to have a ONS and not run into those women everyday. I had one guy on my hall who did all his gaming over there and he developed a fuckboy "snake" reputation because he was going back to the same sororities taking girls home at night.

While another guy was a fucking legend....Over Thanksgiving break, he had one girl in his room, and another from the other college in his friend's room. in the space of 24 hours he went back and forth between the two rooms and pulled it off.

So hunting grounds separate from where you are daily can be an option when you are managing casual relationships....But as to the relationship as an avenue to sex, I think it can be a valuable experience. Sep gave good guidance. I do remember in college, that while I had a few ONS experiences, the relationships I had had more sex in them than when I was trying to bed randoms. With the Sexual Assault Sensitivity of today's college campuses at an all-time high, it almost is a better strategy to avoid accusations of impropriety. Because an accusation will torpedo your reputation quicker than anything.

So enter a Relationship on your terms.... Make sure the women no you value physical Intimacy as your LOVE LANGUAGE. Encourage them to show their passionate side. Tell them that you value passion as a pillar in a relationship. And then deliver. Be exciting, decisive and romantic without apology. Show her you won't judge her for having a sexual appetite, and assure her that you will be an upstanding gentleman in her friends eyes.

 

[ThePhoenix]

 
With the utmost respect for Seppuku and FT, I'm still gonna be the devil's advocate here.

...as there are some cons to doing this worth considering.

I do think the cons could be pretty big. The reason is not so much that you're getting into a relationship, but your reasons for it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way your OP reads to me, it seems like your frame here is, "a woman would not actually want to have sex with me, so I will have to instead offer her X/Y/Z in exchange for sex", where XYZ in this case is a relationship. I think you appreciate as well, that's a really bad frame.

I would not even think to enter a relationship from a position of need. (I could be wrong but I don't think Seppuku & FT are suggesting to do that; they used words like "if you wish" and "on your terms".) If you do it, do it because it's what you actually want to do, not because you think you have to do it to get laid (or to get anything, for that matter). One thing I have been learning is that anything you do with women should be on your terms.

Now, I realize you may have to bend rules here and there based on situation for the sake of getting experience, but to me, acting on this supplicative frame for several years straight isn't bending the rules, it's snapping them completely. My concern would be that operating under this model for that long could be really destructive long-term.

I know that for me, poor mental models are realllllllly hard to break after they have governed your behaviour for a long time. You can consciously understand the correct model and know that according to it, you need to act in a certain way, and yet the poor model still governs your behaviour in the moment when it matters. For me, breaking those bad habits has been a full-time job I'm still working on! I'd give just about anything to not have acted on those poor mental models in the first place.

I'm also not convinced that offering a relationship is even a viable solution for "I have no sexual value on offer". If that worked, I'd have had far more sex when I was young and stupid, because I had tons of loyalty on offer. Loyalty never got me laid. Quite the opposite! Ironically, the guys with the least need for a relationship could get into one and manage one the easiest.

Here's a question. Other than the obvious, could you visit larger population centers on weekends, or use on-line game. Does this place have any cougars around? I know it sounds bad, but I'd rather have a bunch of post-menopausal women chasing me for sex, than to try for one 20 year old I probably won't get by using that approach anyway, and at the cost of slowly brainwashing myself into thinking that in order to get sex I have to in some way or another buy a woman.

More generally, I suspect it's a lot less damaging to lower your standards if it means having an abundance of women, than to try to operate within a limited pool of females in which it is not practical to practice.

From what I've seen so far, when learning women, numbers are everything. It's bad enough I stick to a visible minority, but at least I'm doing it in a big city. (And I'm a cunthair away from moving to where that minority comes from.) If the total pool of women I could approach for the next several years was in the hundreds or low thousands, and on top they all knew each other, I would be going out of my mind. I'd be climbing the walls. For a very experienced guy, no problem; for you or I, utterly toxic!

As I think about it more, you know what I'd probably do? Burn shit to the ground. In a few years you're not going to know these people anyway, so who gives a fuck? Just try to game them as though they weren't such a scarce resource. I'd rather have a reputation as the guy that hits on all the girls than to let my mind fall into the trap of supplicating to women. Do your best to exercise and communicate discretion, but game them.

I had a squeaky clean reputation in school. In the big picture, I wish I hadn't. Years later you know what tangible benefit I can say I gained from it? ZIP. Other than having to be a member of a website to learn about what I should've been fucking with back then. You have to live with your reputation at this college for a few years, but you have to live with your mind for life, and believe me, you don't want it poisoned with a weak stance towards women. I learned that the hard way.

There is a risk you get a domino effect and negative preselection kills the whole college and you don't get laid, but what's the alternative? Have a bunch of girls saying, "oh, Ash, he's such a nice guy," and you don't get laid anyway?

Gaming may not even be that bad. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, you did get a repeat lay from this college, no? Or was that a different one? I read that LR and in my opinion, there's potential, you just need to tweak some stuff. You allowed some aspects to be a bit "relationshipey", like the lovers seat in the theater. IMO, theater is a terrible first date and you'd have done better to go with something simple like coffee. You fucked her either without or before a relationship and the sky did not fall. Just keep working on it!!

As for getting continued sex once you've been intimate with a girl, you don't need a relationship for that. I've got a buddy who'se had the same rotation of FwBs and fuck buddies on and off for literally years. At some point, the girl usually starts pestering for a relationship and posturing like continued sex will depend on it. You know what he does? He doesn't budge. Total outcome independence. He'll just say to the girl, "Hey, if you don't want to keep doing what we're doing, we don't have to. We can just stop having sex, that's fine." Most often the sex continues.

You can't let a shitty numerical situation control you. Eg. I'm especially crazy about South Sudanese women. But looking for them in my city is like chasing unicorns; I've only seen two in the last year!! The first one, I knew what store she worked in. But my thinking at that time was, "They're so rare, I'd better not fuck this up, so I'm going to have to wait until my game is better." So I saved her for later. Until one day I realize there is no later because there's a hole where that store used to be. Suffice it to say, the next one I saw, incidentally just the other day, I hit on the same day I saw her. My attitude by then was, fuck it, there's millions of them in the world. If I have to move to Juba then I'll move to Juba. (It's only a war zone.) Fuck it, just do it. Went better than many approaches; might still pull her.

FT has a good point about the overzealous pursuit of "sexual assault", but that will depend on your country & other factors. I would be much more inclined to just take reasonable precautions, rather than throw my mental model in the garbage. Avoid alcohol. Maybe be a bit more conservative in the interpretation of LMR. Send the "I didn't rape you" text (something like, "Hey X, I really enjoyed our time last night " .. she texts back "me too " and she loses a lot of credibility crying rape later). Perhaps you could go with Regal Tiger's approach and have a tape recorder! Life has risks, and belongs to those who balance them, not extinguish them.

Good advice from FT, that if you do get into a relationship, be very sexual in it.... but that comes back to my basic concern with your reasons for entering it in the first place....

You really need to ditch the mental model of not having sexual value!!! I admit I am still fighting this poor model myself, but at least I totally reject it consciously, and I'm getting much closer to success than I ever got when I allowed myself to take actions consistent with an implicit assumption that a woman wouldn't fuck me for the sake of fucking me. You cannot correct poor thinking by acting in a manner that legitimizes it.

I feel like that embedded assumption most of us guys are carrying around in our heads - that women won't fuck us for the sake of fucking - is theeeeee single biggest handicap to our being good with women!!!

Well, just some different angles to think about!!

Cheers,
Phoenix

__________
Disclaimer of possible bias: Though a former loyalty posterchild, I'm now quite against monogamy. I feel it essentially serves males no purpose, and that almost any advantage commonly attributed to monogamy, including sex, romance, passion, love, parenthood, and childrearing can all be done at least as effectively without sexual commitment. I fully intend that my child will be conceived, born, and raised outside of any sexual commitment with the mother and be raised in a co-parenting arrangement from birth. This is not to say that no man has realized benefits from a monogamous relationship, but is to say that I am skeptical that any such man couldn't have realized those benefits by other means that would have exposed him to less potential or real disadvantage. I would vote for a candidate who promised to make relationships illegal to males who haven't slept with 50 women... wellll, as long as said candidate wasn't going to do anything else stupid.

 

[Seppuku]

With the utmost respect for Seppuku and FT, I'm still gonna be the devil's advocate here.

Thanks Phoenix But are we really disagreeing? I don't think so.

All the points you make here, I agree with. In particular, yes, committing into a relationship because it's the only way to get safe access to sex, is a very bad frame to have - and unfortunately, that's the reason why most men on this planet get "roped in" a relationship by the girl. She gives him a taste of heavenly pleasure, the guy likes it and wants more (or else return to daily porn), and before he knows it she framed him into commitment.

But is this what OP meant? I don't think so.

The way I read it was, "It is not currently convenient, because of the social circumstances, to be seen with many women. It is more socially acceptable if I stick to one for now". Am I right, Ash?

There are times when it is simply more convenient to stick to one girl. I have been there. In 2014-15 I had my children staying full time with me at home. It wouldn't do to come with a different girl each week. So I settled with one, by convenience. I introduced her to the kids and made her part of our family, so that I wouldn't have to hide from the kids. We had sex 2 times a week, and it actually felt good. To this day she's one of my conquests that mattered the most. Even after she returned back to her country, we managed to meet a few times and arrange some holidays together. Life caught up though, and she's now married and has a child of her own.

Something like this is perfectly acceptable. And there are many things to learn from being in a relationship. After all, what is seduction, if not a way to get better, more balanced relationships? Raking up laycount is fun for some time but soon becomes empty of meaning. Like all seducers ultimately find out.

The other aspect of the question "it is not moral getting in a relationship, knowing that it will not last" is ignoring the fact that the huge majority of relationships eventually come to a natural end, anyway. So why not getting fully into it, and stop worrying about morality. It will last whatever it will. Just because relationships end ultimately is not a reason good enough to avoid them.

Back to what you were writing, Phoenix, it's nice to see that you have absorbed the right ideas of seduction. When you finally really internalize them, that's when the old mental models will start to break for the new ones. It is doable.

I had myself my own period of ingesting and digesting the ideas, in 2012-14, before I started really taking action in summer 2014. My first GF after divorce, I got her after 4 dates. In hindsight, I was giving way too much into her frame, but hey, these things do not come naturally overnight. Then my next mental model barrier was about getting to same day lay. One date only. Up to that point, I had had a few success using 2 or 3 dates. But also realized that I was losing plenty of nice opportunities by not acting faster. I had to try. It was a leap of faith... And it worked!

At some point I think you will also need to take this leap of faith. You know the theory... Now close the eyes, and just do it.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[trashKENNUT]

I wish i can explain better, and move you from where you are. and chip in.
Zac

 

[trashKENNUT]

Ash,

I wish i can explain better, and move you from where you are. and chip in.

Zac

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey Seppuku,

I kind of suspected we weren't really disagreeing about women. I think it's more a matter of, we took two very different interpretations of Ash's OP. You addressed the question itself, of the morality, and I fully agree, nothing immoral about getting into something you don't expect to last (at least so long as you're not making false promises). But this is what gave me a more concerned interpretation of his motivations:

... I need to enter monogamy in order to get laid as that is the only type of value that I can provide her in return.

It sounds like a bad frame, no? I guess Ash will have to clarify what he meant.

In either case I would still be very concerned about entering a committed relationship when you don't already have a robust mental model and a good repertoire of seducton experience to draw from to keep your head on straight. To the point I'd even prefer cougars or burning my reputation in a social group I'm exiting soon enough anyway.

... After all, what is seduction, if not a way to get better, more balanced relationships? Raking up laycount is fun for some time but soon becomes empty of meaning. Like all seducers ultimately find out.

I think I lie somewhere in the middle here. I do value genuine connections with a woman. So for me, I would not really want to be the fuckboy that beds a new girl every other day and never sees her again. But I wouldn't want to be monogamous, either... to me, it's too dangerous due to the "cat which has caught its prey" element of female psychology, plus just about any alleged benefit of monogamy doesn't really require monogamy, anyway (it's just a social construct, like paying for dates). So my goal is to have meaningful connections and ongoing friendship and sex with a small handful of women I'm not sexually committed to, which to me seems like the ideal balance. (Although getting there might require a bit more of a "fuckboy" stage.)

At some point I think you will also need to take this leap of faith. You know the theory... Now close the eyes, and just do it.

I have been progressing some. The date I had last week, the Guyanese girl .. (I wrote a FR on the Sudanese girl I met immediately after the date instead since I was more taken with her, so I still have to write that) .. we were sitting in a fast food place, had her sit beside me.. this time she pointed her legs towards me unlike other girls thus far.. and I was touching her thighs, which I hadn't been bold enough to do before. No resistance. That was the first date I've gotten by stopping a girl shopping. Meanwhile the Kenyan girl from the next city, where I had the transportation issues, we finally set a date for tomorrow. I had offered to handle the transportation but she didn't want me to and got her own means.. even offered to pick me up (but I didn't take her up). That one has been very nice so hopefully that works out.

It's just efficiency right now. I need to optimize my time better to pack in more approaches and follow up for dates more quickly. More appealing demographics would also help me approach more, so I'm still looking at moving once the weather gets bad here. But I'm a lot better than I was a year ago, when I was deathly afraid even just to approach a girl, so that at least is good!

Cheers,
Phoenix

 

[Seppuku]

Phoenix,

In either case I would still be very concerned about entering a committed relationship when you don't already have a robust mental model and a good repertoire of seducton experience to draw from to keep your head on straight.

It reminds me of a quote from Franco - the other one, from francoseduction.com. He wrote:

All men should be kept by law from getting married or involved in a long-term relationship before they become expert seducers and have laid at least 50 women!

Try to find and read everything you can by this author if you can, he has some extraordinary insight. But still, I think you can go ahead and try relationships for the sake of learning. Just don't get yourself married, that's it. LOL.

So for me, I would not really want to be the fuckboy that beds a new girl every other day and never sees her again.

But you may discover that the one night only thing, is necessarily coming from you . Being a fuckboy for some time is enjoyable though, and it should be part of the learning. It has therapeutic virtues . The rest of what you say, we are mostly on the same page.

this time she pointed her legs towards me unlike other girls thus far.. and I was touching her thighs, which I hadn't been bold enough to do before. No resistance.

The ahaaa moment! Good job. So it's possible to touch the legs of a girl you just met, with no negative reaction on her part So where is the limit? Can you become bolder and explore how bold you can be next time? Hint: you will be surprised how much to can pull off. Next hint: what if you had stood up, taken her hand in yours, and walked to your home?
Sounds like good progress! Looking forward to read more.

Cheers,
Seppuku

 

[Rain]

I've always had the belief that people enter relationships in order to get married with the guy someday. But, since I have no intentions of getting married

You sense it right. It's worth noting that most of today's 'relationships' in some fashion. Always have the big picture in mind! This video is worth repeating, since the last time I posted it no one seemed to care. Proceed according to your best judgement!

Do you refer to South African or American campus life? I've heard American is a microcosm of its own, in Europe, it's not that big of a deal. Most campuses are in the main cities, as compared to the US, where they are in college towns.

That is an interesting link Space. If I remember correctly Hector put, a similar video with similarish message by Jordan in one of his articles.

That video does speak volumes. Thanks for sending it. I haven't seen that one of Jordan's videos specifically, but it is something he'd definitely say. It did however point out one of the reasons as to why I'm not a marriage fan myself which is the fact that I don't think that I'll find a woman that'll stick through that with me.

I'm glad you mentioned Jordan otherwise I may not have clicked the link. Watched a few more videos he can speak in a way that expains things well.

So, I'm still not sure that its oaky to give a woman commitment if you know you'll never commit to her.

 

[ThePhoenix]

But you may discover that the one night only thing, is necessarily coming from you . Being a fuckboy for some time is enjoyable though, and it should be part of the learning. It has therapeutic virtues

I think I can be open minded to that.  

Next hint: what if you had stood up, taken her hand in yours, and walked to your home?

I wish I had have!!

Thank you for the encouragement, as always!

Cheers,
Phoenix