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Just curious about this one. . .

Black

Space Monkey
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This girl added me as friend on an expat website like a month ago and we started talking on "whatsapp" - her contacting me everyday.
Because her written English was rather broken and because she did not have any pictures of herself whatsoever; I did not trust who she said she was, her motives, whatever. . . I even toyed with her and teased her in ridiculous/crazy ways thinking it was a scam anyway.

Then it turned out we were both bound to attend the same social gathering and that she had already attended the previous event.
She was out there in some group picture though she didn't want to tell me who she was.
Out of common sense, I got my act together with her a little bit since we were bound to enter social circle territory - but still this lead to even more flirting, her asking me out to a bar with a couple girlfriends of her (which I declined), some talking about giving each other a massage, the panties she wears when working out, etc. . . (she lives out of town thou, so logistics are not great).

This continued with her contacting me everyday leading up to the day we finally met at a dinner party.
In fact, that night I walked in and sat in front of this girl I thought was a total stranger who couldn't care less about me - and she suddenly goes "hey, it's me".
Yes, she turned out to be this 30 something year old, unmarried business woman, she claimed to be, not stunning but not ugly-looking either.
Thing is, she put her busines facade on. I did too and we both mostly spoke to other people. We barely addressed each other.

After that, she continued contacting me on whatsapp; say, every other night I come back from sports at around 22:00 and there's a message from her.
She also seems to be out there reading every message I post in our group/public conversation; finding out I went to a party, a date, whatever. . . and later inquiring about it privately.
She also contacts me to tell me awesome things she does or how shes working out once again.
The difference is that flirting is 5% of what was before and she seems annoyed/flustered if I try to tease her or mess with her.
She now seems rather humorless, easily annoyed.
Things like me "seeming to get a lot of girls" come up but not so much direct compliments like before.
It's like she got into this "I'm a serious girl" mode - and I can only very occassionally drag her out of that place.

I find it hard to think she just wasn't attracted when she saw me - as almost every other male in that group has a beer belly (I'm the only one with an obvious gym body), most are provider material, a lot are Asians and she's looking for a white guy, etc. . .
I can only think of one other guy she could be attracted too.
I feel it's more of a "oops! we entered social circle" kind of thing.

Lately she's been going to these outings at the countryside with other locals and since she brought it up to me privately a few times - I just said, "hey, I may be interested next time". I know it's a friend-zone kind of thing but I've had local (Chinese) girls in the past invite me to a group thing like that and then it turned out they were chasing me. Anyway, I haven't confirmed; I can still postpone, say no, etc. . . I like it a bit because it's outside this social circle and the rest of the people going will be locals who probably won't be able to follow our conversation in English.

Anyway, my question is: What's up here? Is she contacting me all the time just to be friends?
I'm seeing other girls all the time but I'd like to bed this one earlier or later - but since we entered social cirlce it's like she's stopping me from moving too fast or getting too sexual. . . but at the same time keeping tags on me?

_
Also, while I'm keeping her as a on-the-side thing whithout worrying too much - I rarerly take the initiative to speak to her and I try to keep things playful and non-chalant - it's also like she's demanding more and more investment from me and trying to get me to chase instead.
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Black,

Investment and more investment. In dating, this can be a constant struggle because some women are just inexperienced and pushes for investment over the top without compensating you.

In Asia, in order to make you their boyfriend, girls will often want to invite you to social circles and then they take it slow.

It kinds of fun.(with high level of sarcasm!!!).

Zac
 

Tim Iron

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ZacAdam said:
In Asia, in order to make you their boyfriend, girls will often want to invite you to social circles and then they take it slow.

ZacAdam, it happens here in Africa also and I think it also happens in most of Europe... it is a worldwide thing...
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Tayo,

Tayo said:
ZacAdam, it happens here in Africa also and I think it also happens in most of Europe... it is a worldwide thing...

I think so too, but i didn't want to say it because i do not know in absolute, although now i remember that Chase said the same thing. So it's a correct call.

Zac
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Black

Space Monkey
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This one keeps deep-diving me now. . . exploring me.

She herself brought up the problems of social circle dating/flirting because of something that happened with another girl - so now I have a clearer picture of what's in her mind. No more flirting/testing/fighting. . . for the time being.

If she's not crazy/evil and looking for weak points with her deep-diving. . . then I think she might at least become a good friend.
She's high value anyway and my first "friend" in our group.
 

Chase

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Black-

It sounds like attainability.

It's important to understand that especially in Asia, foreigners have a big reputation as major playboys. So when she meets up with you in person, she's doing a lot of assessment on how you interact with her and how you interact with everybody else. Especially if you're confident and smooth, there's a good chance she starts viewing you as out of her league.

Also, I've noticed that in Asia women past age 27 or 28 or so start auto-rejecting attractive men fast if they get any inkling of those men fooling around with or being attracted to younger women. Especially once she's over 30 - you'll see it sometimes with women in the West too, but in Asia they're hyperaware of their lowered desirability as older women, and the slightest indication you're attractive to and probably get younger girls makes them shut their doors to protect their egos (nothing worse for a woman than watching a man she likes go sleep with girls who are younger and prettier than her, while he ignores all her worldliness and accomplishments for that young, pretty, unworldly, unaccomplished thing).

Sometimes there is this weird follow-up behavior too, yeah. It seems to be like, "Ugh, he goes for pretty young girls - whatever. Well, wait - damn it. I don't know very many guys as exotic as this guy. Okay, I guess I should follow up with him. Um, but I'm not really that interested? Yeah, but I don't want to lose him - who knows what the future holds. Okay, let me just talk to him."

It's almost like they push themselves to follow up with you because even though they've auto-rejected emotionally, they don't want to write you off rationally.

I cut the cord like a seasoned vasectomy surgeon whenever I run into this behavior. It seems designed purely to waste a man's time.

Chase
 

Tim Iron

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ZacAdam, I was watching CCTV (china television station) and they say that people call women above 25 years "left over women" or "left over brides" in china - is that true?

ZacAdam said:
Tayo,

Tayo said:
ZacAdam, it happens here in Africa also and I think it also happens in most of Europe... it is a worldwide thing...

I think so too, but i didn't want to say it because i do not know in absolute, although now i remember that Chase said the same thing. So it's a correct call.

Zac
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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Tayo,

Tayo said:
ZacAdam, I was watching CCTV (china television station) and they say that people call women above 25 years "left over women" or "left over brides" in china - is that true?

I do not know about that one but once a women is past 25 or 30 years old mark, People around the world will find anything to label women, and they wonder why feminism is rampant and the leader is usually a female, probably 25 yrs old or 35 yrs old herself.

It is important to know that this is not just happen in China. In America, you guys call this "cougar". In Asia, there's different sorts of name, in their own native language.

Zac
 

PinotNoir

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I hear this the most in my workplace environment. Outside of work, I don't really hear it (probably either because I don't choose to associate with such people or maybe it's a generational thing).

But, whenever an attractive woman hits 30 and still isn't married, most of my coworkers' response is always the same, "Wow, must be something wrong with her that guys don't like. Probably crazy." And well, it's not completely wrong for some women, but it's not the majority. This is southern america though. There's even a small stigma against unmarried men at 30+, but it's usually more like, "This guy needs to get serious... what is he doing with his life?"

It always surprises me when I date a beautiful older woman, and she feels so unattractive and not desired. I'm looking at one of the most beautiful women for any age, and yet she feels ugly. It's crazy.

It's even more bizarre with Asian women because they stay beautiful for much, much longer. I'd love to move to China/Japan/Taiwan/Thailand and make love to every 30+ "ugly" woman, but instead of really making them feel better, I'd probably just ruin their lives by not marrying them.... but still, I'd love to do it....
 

Black

Space Monkey
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Chase said:
Black-

It sounds like attainability.

It's important to understand that especially in Asia, foreigners have a big reputation as major playboys. So when she meets up with you in person, she's doing a lot of assessment on how you interact with her and how you interact with everybody else. Especially if you're confident and smooth, there's a good chance she starts viewing you as out of her league.

Also, I've noticed that in Asia women past age 27 or 28 or so start auto-rejecting attractive men fast if they get any inkling of those men fooling around with or being attracted to younger women. Especially once she's over 30 - you'll see it sometimes with women in the West too, but in Asia they're hyperaware of their lowered desirability as older women, and the slightest indication you're attractive to and probably get younger girls makes them shut their doors to protect their egos (nothing worse for a woman than watching a man she likes go sleep with girls who are younger and prettier than her, while he ignores all her worldliness and accomplishments for that young, pretty, unworldly, unaccomplished thing).

Sometimes there is this weird follow-up behavior too, yeah. It seems to be like, "Ugh, he goes for pretty young girls - whatever. Well, wait - damn it. I don't know very many guys as exotic as this guy. Okay, I guess I should follow up with him. Um, but I'm not really that interested? Yeah, but I don't want to lose him - who knows what the future holds. Okay, let me just talk to him."

It's almost like they push themselves to follow up with you because even though they've auto-rejected emotionally, they don't want to write you off rationally.

I cut the cord like a seasoned vasectomy surgeon whenever I run into this behavior. It seems designed purely to waste a man's time.

Chase

Thank you,

That makes sense in light of the bitter undercurrent in all these comments she makes about me "being popular with a lot of girls".

She seems to have gone cold that first night - immediately - even before we spoke; very sad thing because I value her a lot. It also seems to me that whenever I give her a kind word or kindly prove her wrong she just ignores that for the sake of cognitive coherence.
In fact, that first night, I didn't do anything special, I didn't flirt, with anyone, she 80% ignored me; I just ended talking business with the guys!

In general, it's something i've been getting from a lot of girls here, some more "discarded" than others, again and again:
The subject that "I must be getting a lot of girls" comes up and they keep inquiring about that until it's annoying. . .
Next thing I know is we are talking in circles and it's impossible to advance anymore.
Also whatever I do to play it down or deflect it doesn't seem to open anymore escalation possibilities. . .
Chase frames have resulted in anger with some of these. . . but I'm not surprised now.

One thing I'm a bit confused about is the preselection vs attainability thing at play here. . .

____________

As for the others commenting on the older women thing. . .

Here in China the pressure to get married is so big some girls hire a fake boyfriend to introduce to their parents during Spring Festival (major nation-wide family gathering and holiday). . . so they can get their parents off their backs for a bit.
Also, a lot of the ones I meet here are either obviously scrambling for a boyfriend/husband and/or tell me the kind of things they have to deal with on a regular basis. . . for example their parents setting them up on appalling blind dates with guys chosen on the basis of family connections, money, etc. . .
A lot also tell me that many stereotypical Chinese guys want nothing to do with independant strong women. . . which is exactly what a lot of the high value "discarded" women are. . .
 

ray_zorse

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My god, I would love to have a 30+ independent "strong" discarded Chinese woman in my bed right now :) there are plenty in my country too, so it's helpful getting a bit of insight into their headspace from this post...

Anyway just wanted to chime in and say it sounds like you are 90% of the way there, you know where they are coming from, you're sympathetic, you see the positive qualities in them that family/society are rejecting and you find them hot, so PERSIST and here is my tip for you, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH FLATTERY IN ASIAN CULTURE :) :) Lay it on thick, use a trowel and KEEP IT COMING and DO NOT STOP, even if it sounds insincere to you it will be standard fare for them, you need to get to a certain background level of flattery before any will be taken seriously & will sound cold & aloof without it I reckon... this seems particularly important for the demographic you are dealing with, where you are trying to turn that bitterness around & channel something positive.
 

Chase

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Black-

Black said:
In general, it's something i've been getting from a lot of girls here, some more "discarded" than others, again and again:
The subject that "I must be getting a lot of girls" comes up and they keep inquiring about that until it's annoying. . .
Next thing I know is we are talking in circles and it's impossible to advance anymore.
Also whatever I do to play it down or deflect it doesn't seem to open anymore escalation possibilities. . .
Chase frames have resulted in anger with some of these. . . but I'm not surprised now.

Don't try to play this down, as it doesn't work. Instead, just quiz them on it in a mildly curious fashion:

  • Girl: So you must get a lot of girls here.

    You: [mildly quizzical look] Oh, why do you say that?

    Girl: Foreigners here all date a lot of girls.

    You: Oh, really? Hmm. Well, I suppose anywhere you go in the world, foreign people are exotic. Same in my home country; women from [her country] hit the shores and within a year or two, many of them go on an absolute tear and sleep with so many new men because they're just so free and there are so many exotic new men around them.

    Girl: Really? Well, I don't think I would do that.

    You: So you would not be interested by lots of attractive foreign men? That's funny.

    Girl: Well, I *would*, but I would probably get a boyfriend and not do that.

    You: Ah, I see.

    Girl: Do you have a girlfriend?

    You: [in this case, I would NOT recommend the standard "I'm too busy for a girlfriend right now" answer, since it'll just lead to her saying "Ah, yep, see - just like all those other foreign guys"] Why? Are you looking to apply for that role?

    Girl: Haha, no, I'm just asking...

    You: Asking if I have a girlfriend today, asking if I own an apartment tomorrow... I know how this works...

    Girl: Haha, no! I was just curious...

etc. What you're doing here is making this conversation NOT about "you and other girls" but instead about you and HER, which is what gets her involved, turns her on, and staves off auto-rejection.

Also, for people from conservative countries that have heavier social controls than what you see in the West, that's about as close to chase framing as you usually want to get - implying that they are chasing after you for a relationship, rather than chasing after you for sex. Still framing them as chasing after you, just the thing you frame them as pursuing you for is altered. You can STILL sleep with them quickly; this is just framed this way to allow them to save face by not assuming they are chasing sex, which is insulting to them unless they are highly Westernized (and even then, they might still be a little bashful about it).

Also - this whole "You must sleep with a lot of girls" thing is exclusively a "local girl who hangs with foreign guys" phenomenon. Either she works with foreign men or she hangs out with them, and usually she dates a number of them, and so she's seen it. The girls who aren't around foreigners much / at all don't have this impression, or if they do, it's more a rational one and not an emotional one (i.e., when she meets you, even if she knows "foreigners = sex addicts!" rationally, her emotions are more likely to be like "wow, so exciting! He's so exotic!").

So if you find this whole thing annoying, just ditch the local girls who hang with / work with / date foreign men and focus on the far larger pool of local women you can meet through cold approach for whom you may be the first Western man they've ever spoken with.

Black said:
One thing I'm a bit confused about is the preselection vs attainability thing at play here. . .

In this case, it's not really preselection per se, because many times these women will assume "Foreign man sleeps with clueless local girls", and these girls are obviously beneath them in status (they think). After all, they're the ones with better English, more foreign friends, more familiarity with foreign culture, more money, working for the foreign firms, and those foreigners are all sleeping with hair salon girls or chicks who waitress or something like that. Low status. And since you're usually meeting women who say this via social circle, this comes into play:

Why the Status of Women You Sleep with Matters in Social Circle

... in effect, it actually hurts your status to let her associate you with the other foreign guys she's known / dated who slept around with a lot of low status women. If you let her pin you as this, it leaves her feeling like you are some grubby dumpster diver who's only out for sex, and then she auto-rejects and tells herself that you aren't worthy of her since you were only ever going to treat her as just another one of your hussies.

Chase
 

Black

Space Monkey
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Thanks again, awesome road map for this kind of situation.

It really is good to understand when these things fall apart.

Now I see why some guys (with game) go out of their way to say things to separate themselves from the foreigner stereotype.

Also this exact thing happened to me last Friday in the span of a couple of hours and I saw for what it was immediately; I couldn't help it thou; I wasn't quite controlling the situation or maybe I should have been. . .
Basically I was sitting down having some dinner at a foreigners meetup. A local girl came to sit beside, we had awesome rapport, exchanged Chinese-Whatsapp, then her bored friend dragged her to another table. In less than 10 minutes came this other girl to take her place, younger, less travelled. She started flirting hard with me, laughing very loud, complimenting my looks, talking about how she really was open-minded (unlike others) and so on. . .
The first girl started glancing back at us repeatedly from the other table - then got up and left early, I caught her on the way out and tried to say hi but she was almost dismissive and evidently hurt.
I sent her a follow up nice-to-meet-you message hours later, she did not reply and blocked me from her social media content instead. I made a joke about that and she got back to me with something like "ROFL I didn't even notice you".
Two girls. . . zero outcome - cause the second one turned out to be just a flirt; going round and making a lot of noise for the sake of it.
 
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