Lesbian/bi from a prior life - does she actually STILL want me?!

[ThePhoenix]

Got a few FRs from mostly day game I gotta write up still, but just now I got a quadruple-text I wasn't really expecting, because this is after major FUs on my part. I'm trying to gauge if this is really another (fleeting) opportunity she's giving me, because it looks like it but I can barely believe it after all the FUs, and I'm not that experienced a judge!

A little more detail is here, but briefly: I met Camilliah when she was 15 and I was 18~19. Instant mutual attraction (gazing at each other non-stop before we even talked, etc.) but I didn't even know what game was. After I gave up and moved on, she got more interested. Her and a friend of hers wound up in my room removing my clothes with tremendous exuberance, but in a moment of oneitis-induced insanity, I shooed them off. We eventually lost touch.

Some 8 years later I looked her up and found her living with an older lesbian white girl (she's black and I'm white) who she'd been with for 6 years and she described as "extremely amazing". When we got back in touch, Cammie was quite interested to meet. Related that "lesbians can be quite dramatic." A more experienced friend looking at our correspondence interpreted her motives as sexual. Between horrible logistics on my part and a family tragedy very near to her, that fell by the wayside. For much of the next 8 years we stayed at the outskirts of strangerhood.

Heard from her out of nowhere after 2 years this past Christmas and we kept making plans that fell through until some "manly resolve" got her in my presence for the first time in nearly half her life.

She lives outside the metropolitan area I'm in, probably about a 30 min. drive. She's on leave, ending in a couple weeks, but her work is at the other end of the metropolis, probably a 50 min. drive for her. I'm about an 8 min. detour off that route. The day she came over she was apparently going into work to run some errand, though it just so happened to be the very next day after I was coaxing her to come. Date was noon, but before 11am she said she finished early and asked me if I was up for meeting earlier. I very unwisely wasn't prepared for earlier - a slip-up I'd pay dearly for.

We met up at a small restaurant a few blocks from me, she bought us lunch, we chatted a fair bit there and she invited herself to my place (I baited her with my creative works). I unwisely showed her what she came to see, which distracted us both remarkably even while having her in my bedroom!

I didn't know it soon enough, but there was a time constraint on her end: her partner (who called while she was over) was expecting her back in the afternoon for a designated time due to their infant's nap schedule. Between that, the distractions, and chickening out over fear that maybe she hadn't meant this to be sexual, I barely escalated at all, though what little I did do wasn't resisted. When she had to leave for a given time, I made some verbal effort to coax her to stay, but she had to leave. She suggested coming again and bringing alcohol.

I cursed myself for days afterwards for letting her leave without trying to sleep with her, and fully expected this to pretty much toast any chances.

Of course, I tried to get her back anyway, just in case. First try, post-disaster day 2, was looking good until she replied to specific day suggestions with "Ok. Be in touch buddy!" Didn't want to be in that frame so I retracted the suggestions and we both went silent until I gave her a low-energy ping on day 10. She disclosed specifics of a pretty awkward week so I elected not to risk a proposal.

Day 16, I send her a timely greeting and use a recent occasion as an excuse for a drink. She's "absolutely" down and adds that she should invite me to her place, only problem being it's in a next city, and suggests we could "meet again at a central location". I felt going to her place was, in the absence of any other info, a really bad idea since if her partner is there it's instant friend-zone (unless...LOL). Also kinda far and harder for me. I mention something I gotta do soon in the home office, which she had expressed a lot of interest in seeing when she was here, and told her she should come see it in action. No reply.

Day 20, a Friday, I low-energy ping her re. her weekend. She gave specifics that didn't look entirely good, but it was ambiguous so I gave her a playful little tease to coax her over for Sunday. She said that "probably won't work" and explained why specifically, ending with "Can we plan for another day?" I queried for information on her partner's work schedule. No answer. I expected that was that and I was a fucking idiot for not escalating, end of story.

Now, day 23, mid-morning I get four texts in a row! She's apologizing for having not responded. Tells me her partner is at work with the car all week except for two (fastly approaching) days when the partner is out of the country and Camilliah is going to be just her and the infant at home. Says if I can come out to her city she can host me (she used "I can" not "we can"). Or else we could plan for "in the near future", and goes on to ping how I'm doing.

This of course piques my attention, because going to her place without the partner around is a whole different ballgame and I'm suddenly optimistic that maybe I have been given a second (well, technically third) chance.

Not being sure yet what to do but also not wanting her to go off and make other plans, or auto-reject from my playing some silly "punish her for taking three days to answer" game, I answered 5h later that I'm good and am not sure yet but might be free on [first day her girl is gone]. Her text wasn't specific as to whether she was suggesting the days the partner is at work with the car or the days the partner is out-of-country, so that was just a little risky, but I want her, which means take risks. No answer in 5h but one isn't strictly called for, I think.

The basic ways of seeing this situation are:

1. She wants me to have some excuse to be in her city anyway, come over when her partner is gone, wait for her to put her infant to bed, and then fuck her brains out like I should have 18 years ago;
   
2. She is still attracted and willing, but going to her place is too high-effort and would put me in a bad frame and/or carry too many practical booby traps, so I should bide my time for a chance to get her back to my place;
   
3. She's attracted to me, still, but absolutely doesn't want to cheat on her girl (I'm just assuming it would be cheating; she hasn't disclosed that);
   
4. The Sexy Son Hypothesis completely murdered everything on day 0 the way I was afraid it probably would; or
   
5. She has only viewed me in a totally platonic manner over the intervening 16 years of minimal contact.

My own take is: #3 through #5 are not useful interpretations even though they could be true. Because while I would be totally ok with being "friends who accidentally slept together once", I don't think I could accept being a "have never slept with her" type friend. That's actually partly why I kept her at such distance all these years. So, it's just between assuming #1 or #2, both of which have dangers. I think the dangers of assuming #2 are worse than those of assuming #1 - not hopping on an invitation that has very clear potential for leading to sex is bad for your karma, I think, lol.

But I'll appreciate second opinions!

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Phoenix,

Second opinion is clear. Just stop wondering about what the reason for her behavior is, and act!

Not acting would be worse than any of the 5 alternatives you mention. If you act and things don't work out, at worst you end up in the friend zone. But if you don't act, the opportunity will pass and fade away, possibly forever. You already were lucky enough that she popped back in your life after two decades - don't count on this happening again.

However if you act, in the best case you end up fucking her brains out and everybody's happy.

Seems like a no brainer.

Seppuku
PS. Never let the "fear to lose her" prevent you from acting. She's not yours to be lost. Yet.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey Seppuku,

Thank you for the opinion!

Indeed, I've tended to consciously think that same thing with this girl: may as well try, there's nothing to lose. But I guess on some level there has been a fear, that is not there with random girls, that she will feel like I have disgraced our friendship. On some level maybe this comes from years of conditioning towards sex being offensive. In any case, it's not like we have a substantial friendship anyway so it's not a very pragmatic fear.

So, it was Monday morning when she sent the "wall of text" about her particular schedule, offer to host me, and that the partner was gone Thursday & Friday. She also mentioned that her schedule was difficult on account of some recent changes she has to get used to. Her tone was sincere and positive.

That afternoon I sent:

Hey Cams, I good.. not sure yet but might be free Thu

She did not answer this.

I wasn't sure if this was a cooling off, or just her waiting on a concrete proposal. It also occurred to me that perhaps she hadn't intended things to get sexual and feared I was inviting that.

I didn't want to act too eager in the face of her failure to reply, so stayed silent Tuesday. In retrospect that might have been a mistake; the dynamic with this girl is not exactly like a random stranger so I almost think such little "games" are excessive.

Then Wednesday late morning I sent this:

Cammie, how's it going! I have an errand to do 2morrow @ [a central intersection in her city].. how far r u from there?

I was basically making this up, although I have had to do errands at that location in past.

She did not reply to that at all.

I was a bit torn as to what to do on the day, since I had basically placed myself there anyway. Part of me really wanted to try a quick ping re. being in the city. But I had specifically prompted for her proximity, so if she had been interested to meet, I would have assumed she would have answered that question, which she did not. I was really afraid that sending a third message since her last contact, I would basically now be chasing her ass.

Plus, to send this I'd more or less have to actually go there blindly, which was a lot of running around without a concrete opportunity.

Actually, now that I think about it, a phone call on the morning of Thursday could have been good. Not as chasey as continuing to text. Only problem is, if her girl hasn't left yet and she's around her, she might need to be more cautious in speaking, depending on what their ground rules are.

Neither of us have made any contact since my Wednesday message. (Which actually hurts slightly that she did not answer, being that her and I have always been cool with each other.)

This week is her last week off work, but when she left my place, she assured me we would be able to work something out even after she went back to work, as she has an X weeks on/X weeks off type work schedule.

History says there's a good chance if left to her own devices she'll write me eventually, but I don't know if that would be in a week or a month or in 6 months. Or even in 2 years, lol. I could just wait and see when she writes, but maybe if she takes too long I should ping her, since I don't want whatever feelings she might have to dissipate. It's tricky finding the balance between persistence and chasing.

It's a bit difficult to understand her. She'll be sincerely interested to meet, but then vanish, only to wind up back again, primed to meet. I'd almost call it a game, but that doesn't seem like her. I'm guessing it's interference from her life. And/or possibly varying moods... I have gleaned from another bisexual female friend that girl/girl relationships can be a trip, lol.

Phoenix

 

[ThePhoenix]

History says there's a good chance if left to her own devices she'll write me eventually, but I don't know if that would be in a week or a month or in 6 months.

Well, wound up being sooner, and she immediately mentioned another window! Hopefully I will have some good news to add.

 

[Seppuku]

Phoenix,

It's tricky finding the balance between persistence and chasing.

It is something I also struggled a bit when I started. The difference between chasing and persistence is neediness. And neediness expresses itself in many subtle ways. For instance if you're on her back too often (= much more than she is on yours), you're needy - therefore chasing. It is also conveyed in the tone of your messages. A good rule of thumb is, if you've put all your heart and soul in a message and have a lot of expectations in her answer, you're now outcome dependent and the chances are high that your message comes across as needy (and chasing). The best then is to step back a bit before pressing "send", cool down a little and re-read it after a while.

Nowadays, I have a very strong principle: if I have put the ball firmly in her camp, I won't make any further move until she made a step in my direction. By doing so, I *may* be losing some girls that I could *perhaps* have had by sticking to her ass - at the cost of having a weaker frame. But in those cases where I waited she makes a step back, and she did, the dynamics is much more favorable to me. Like I usually say, better to lose the girl than to lose the frame. And also note that, if she is interested, she will normally come back.

In your present case, you have already pinged her a few times, so the ball is now firmly back in her camp. Your latest post seems to say that she finally got back to you.

Keep us posted!
Seppuku

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey Seppuku,

Good explanation, thank you! There is a bit of getting a "feel" for it but that's a good guide.

Your latest post seems to say that she finally got back to you.

Yes, she did. I am glad I waited, because this shows more firm interest, when she reaches out on her own.

I know you've said it's better when she contacts you first to not go for a meet and instead propose next time on your terms. Mind you in this case she immediately indicated she would be home herself with the infant tomorrow, so I opted to just negotiate a meet straight away.

So, she's expecting me to (she more or less assumes incidentally) be at a mall close to her place. She said we could do coffee depending on when the infant gets up. But she had already suggested visiting her place before, so I expect if I find the infant asleep I will be able to just say, "ok, I'll come over then."

My only issue is that I don't know if the partner is just gone to work or straight up gone the entire day & night. I kind of wanted to find out in advance but wasn't sure how to do so smoothly so I just kind of let it to fate. I probably can find out that in person more smoothly, which might guide what sort of escalation logistics I am dealing with.

If the partner gets back at some point before the infant's bed time, then things are trickier and I might have to try to take her when the infant naps instead. Hopefully I can warm her up in the meantime.

We did not actually set a time, I just said I'll text her from the mall. Due to the possibility I have to seduce her during the day I need to make that fairly early. But then if the partner is actually gone, gone, then it is perhaps better to wait on the infant going to bed rather than a nap. That stretches the time out quite a bit; hopefully the tension doesn't go stale before then. I will have to keep it simmering during the day.

I have to hope that if the girl is trying to get seduced, that she will be helpful in these logistics. Maybe I should have tried to nail the logistics more precisely on text, but I am cautious to be too blunt about it where the partner is concerned, since I have to assume I'm trying to have her cheat on her partner... (I guess some would say I shouldn't be doing this!)

Phoenix

 

[Seppuku]

Hey!

Yeah I normally prefer to have the date set on my terms, and that's what I usually recommend. But in her situation, logistics are a little more complicated by an infant at home. So if it's got to be at her place, let it be at her place. Why don't you propose to go to her place rather than waiting in a mall for the unpredictable time the infant decides to have a nap. And let alone her possible change of hearts.

Now, the question of whether the partner is gone for the day or the week, just go and find out! If you discover she's here, then so be it. But I'm ready to bet you won't see her.

Whether she wants to be seduced or not is irrelevant, it's more about if you want to seduce her or not. Remember that she most probably doesn't know consciously what she wants - so it's really about you making things happen. You take things in your hands. Don't let your frame weaken by unhelpful thoughts or circumstances. Remember that if you don't act, the situation is most likely lost anyway, so you have nothing to lose.

The template is fairly simple. Go to her place. Sit next to her while she serves coffee or whatever. Make a good conversation, get closer, touch. Calibrate if need be. Escalate. Worse case, it's a failed escalation. Much, much better than no escalation at all. Best case, you fuck her and make her happy.

If she lets you go all the way, it means she's willing to cheat and letting you do it. So save yourself any guilty feelings here.

Seppuku

 

[ThePhoenix]

Well, bad news is, didn't escalate. Good news is, it wasn't due to either total cowardice on my part or obvious resistance on hers. It was more a matter of really poor circumstances combined with not enough creativity in the moment to overcome them. I was really blindsided!

So, here are the details:
____________________

When I first contacted Cammie from the area, she gave the option of coming over or else doing coffee, but she had to go out to buy a few things anyway. This was a tough call on the spot, because I remembered advice against becoming the "shopping buddy". If I went straight over, best case she leaves me in her house while she shops, but if she doesn't feel to do that, then I'm stuck being a "shopping buddy". So coffee sounded less risky.

Limited seating + stroller = not much physical contact. Well, I sometimes spontaneously got this closed-mouth smile stuck on my face, so she told her infant, "Phoenix is silly", which made me reach over and slap her knee, haha.

I asked her something about the partner's trip, mainly to see if she was still out of town. No such luck. Probably should've asked when the partner gets off work, but was afraid of being too obvious.

I think I look at Cammie a lot, and I don't stop myself, either. Not that curvy for a black girl but still fit and attractive. Appealing natural beauty, little to no cosmetics. I happen to notice a small detail on her face that almost looks like a decorative feature; mention it and she explains it is actually a scar. She tells me that story.

This girl always asks me a lot of stuff. And she remembers details of current and even old events in my life. Connecting with her is so easy and natural. We would sometimes have silent moments but they didn't feel awkward. Something led her to ask if I plan on children and then she immediately followed by recalling I was open to it. (She had also asked this in the prior meeting and I had answered something like, "possibly.")

After we chatted for a bit, she was going to call the meeting finished due to having to shop etc., but I said, "you should show me your house", and she immediately agreed. She still had to do shopping, so she gave me choice of coming with her or staying behind to finish my drink. I chose the latter because I did not want to be the lost puppy following her around. She did not take that long. Called to have me meet her by the store.

As we walk by a sub shop she asks if I want one. Time isn't my friend so I pass unless she does.

Increased incidental touch on the walk to her house. Actually, at one point where infant was kind of waving to me and I didn't notice right away, she lightheartedly told infant something like "Phoenix doesn't know about babies. You're supposed to wave back!" OMG haha.. so I grab/shake her shoulder, but I should have play punched the shoulder, haha! Nothing like this ever bothers her at all, althouh she's not touchy herself, save for going for hugs.

Anyway, as we walked there she told me it would have to be a short visit because she would have to soon put the infant down for a nap. It felt like someone saying, "oh, by the way, you get two minutes to write the exam, during which time the fire alarm will be ringing." This was horrible... I had assumed the nap was my CHANCE, not my DOOM.

She shows me around a bit. Halfway befriend the yappy dog as she remarks, "smart man!" She gives me a snack which I can kind of use! She works on baby's food in the open kitchen while I'm on the couch and infant is trying to walk. In retrospect I wonder if instead I should have gone in the kitchen to physically distract Camilliah... then again, baby needs to eat, hahaha!

Infant takes an interest in me and comes over, so I pick up and put on my lap. I did this without asking permission, which is notable progress away from my usual level of social deference. Of course, Cammie didn't mind in the slightest. Shortly after, she comes over with the food, sits down and takes the infant over to her lap to spoonfeed.

She sat rather far, so not much touch at this point. Maybe I should have moved over closer to be able to make more contact even while she was feeding the infant. But she has to put the child to sleep before we can be sexual, so there'd be this huge break in the escalation. Would that be better than not trying at all? Honestly this is a situation I don't know how to handle and was really unprepared for.

We talk for a while during the feeding. Asked if the infant was from her egg - I already knew was carried by the partner, but was biracial. Had to push myself a bit to ask that. It was her egg. ("Good!", the part of my brain that looks 500 moves ahead thought.) But couldn't bear the thought of labor. Got talking about reproductive tech. Probably could've turned this to our advantage on a better day, but with no escalation opportunity in sight, didn't bother.

I notice she is talking to the infant in normal adult speech patterns, so I remark that her and I have the same philosophy on baby talk. We vibe off that a bit.

Very soon after the feeding is done, Cammie tells me with great regret that she has to kick me out. Explains there is a whole 30 minute song and dance to put the infant down. I felt so powerless to avert this. I did actually attempt a suggestion that I could always just hide out while she got the infant to sleep, but she started talking at the same time and I'm not sure she even got what I said. That excuse felt uncalibrated anyway, so I didn't repeat.

Cammie actally felt quite bad about kicking me out and she even said that she really wishes we could visit longer. Everything in her body language to me indicated that she meant this with all sincerity.

My brain was racing to find some way to bypass this fate, but I could think of nothing. When I get stressed, I don't think very well. Afterwards, I thought of some things I could have tried. I could have suggested I have to catch up on texts (or whatever) and I could do that in the basement while she puts the baby down. Heck, as I type this I am wishing I had have just told her, "I'm going to the basement. Let me know when the baby is asleep."

Around the point I was resigned to leave, Cammie asked me if I needed to use the washroom or if there was anything else I needed. She still seemed terribly sorry to have to kick me out. I almost wonder if here she was hoping I would find some excuse to have to stay. Only after the fact I realized I could have asked if she had a computer because I had to check e-mail or this or that, in which case maybe I'm lucky and it's in an isolated room.

When we were on the way downstairs she said something like, "I guess you won't have any more reason to come to [city]", being that the excuse that brought me there was a kind of one-time thing. She said this with slight disappointment. I expressed uncertainty. She suggested I could take the train to come.

As I was getting my stuff to leave, I subtly resisted actually leaving until I was satisfied that there were specific modalities available for meeting again. I suggested she should come to my place as there was still much for her to see. She agreed with this sentiment. But I wanted more assurance than a general statement of intent that would be hard to pursue and could fall by the wayside.

So I asked about her X days on/Y days off work schedule. I asked her how the infant would get looked after on her off days. She related that her and the partner's work days are staggered such that one stays home. I prompted her, how is that going to work? She indicated the partner doesn't work weekends, so when her off days are on the weekend, if weather is ok for the partner walking to the store etc. then Cammie can take the car and come. Ok, good.

I think I did well to salvage the situation at the end by projecting this frame of, "I am not leaving until I know I am going to see you again." I think a lot of guys (including myself before) would have just accepted the indefinite ephemeral intent of another meeting. And probably not gotten it.

She told me not to walk home, my having revealed that I sometimes do these crazy long walks.

Actually, I did, especially having so much to think about! (Yeah it was a city and two towns away. LOL.) Wanted to talk to a really sexy girl in a sub shop I stopped at on the way back. I stood around for a bit so I'd be standing when she passed by to leave, but she took longer and I couldn't wait so long without being obvious. Should have just talked to her when she was at the counter, but that's a tougher interrupt and she lives in a next city anyway, lol.

Camilliah texted me a bit later in the afternoon to ask if I got home alright. To me, this seems like a good sign. Was going to write "Appreciate the love Camilliah, yes I did!", but went with this instead quite a bit later:

me: I did. So, Cams, next time I'm going to bring work in my notebook to do in the basement while you get [infant](sp?) asleep. More efficient!

her: Likw that idea.
her: Oops. I like that idea.
her: Or maybe a weekend that I am off and [partner] can watch [infant]. Have a good night.

(next afternoon)

me: Yes Camilliah. Let's make plans when u get back. [She will be doing some training.] As an added bonus you will be trained in the handling of [something related to her work which could also be a metaphor for sperm] (;

She didn't answer that last one.
____________________


It since occurred to me that the kicking me out bit could have been a test. Only, it didn't feel like a test. It really didn't seem like some arbitrary thing she was doing to be a bitch. But I don't have nearly enough experience to meaningfully judge what is or isn't a test in cases like this.

I have a feeling it still could be quite possible to sleep with Cammie, but at once I am keenly aware that for that to happen I urgently need to put a stop to these meetings that don't end in sex.

Remember that she most probably doesn't know consciously what she wants

Yes!! I tell other people this and somehow forget it myself. I guess I spend so much time consciously looking at what a girl actually wants, that it slips my mind that it's not conscious to her.

If she lets you go all the way, it means she's willing to cheat and letting you do it. So save yourself any guilty feelings here.

Yes! This is what I always tell myself, but it's nice to hear it from someone else too.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Phoenix!

At least it was very much worth trying!

Frankly, a woman raising an infant in low age, that was difficult, especially with the infant being just here. Her mind is of course 100% with the infant, which doesn't help. Some remarks / questions / food for thought:

* You moved to a coffee shop, but then she went for shopping, that she "had to do". Was it clear to you, before coming, that she would have to do some shopping? What is the likelihood that she asked you to come because she wanted company while doing shopping?

* At home, did it occur to you that she was in a hurry to kick you out, was maybe because she knew her partner was coming back home soon?

There is something absolutely obvious that comes out, which is a good learning point. The date was absolutely not conducive to seduction. Even if there was no kid, taking a walk in a mall is not great - just like you noted. What you want 1h / 1h30, the two of you sitting side by side, in a relaxed setting (not much social pressure, not too noisy), so that you can do your deep diving, connection building, and run a little bit of touch. This is one of the reasons why I usually never let the girl chose the terms of the date: she has zero clue of what date is, or is not, conducive to seduction. I would outright refuse such a date, and offer to reschedule it - on my terms.

Overall, she seems to have put you in the platonic friend box. If you two are ever to meet again, you don't want a repeat of the same scenario - that could only lead to further disappointments on your part. I would only accept to meet her in my home, face to face, with three hours of free time together.

Seppuku

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hey Seppuku,

Thank you for the feedback!

Frankly, a woman raising an infant in low age, that was difficult ...

Yeah, it's not the first time I've been in situations with girls having an infant, and it does make things a lot harder! OTOH, even such women are still sexual creatures, so I always wind up thinking, it's worth a try!

* You moved to a coffee shop, but then she went for shopping, that she "had to do". Was it clear to you, before coming, that she would have to do some shopping? What is the likelihood that she asked you to come because she wanted company while doing shopping?

Well, it was framed as, I was going to be in the area anyway. Although I did that in response to her availability. I didn't actually know about the shopping before coming to the city. This was the day's exchange prior to meeting:

me: Hey hey Cams. Find myself a bit early!

her: Hey Phoen. Just feeding the little one and heading out to grab a few things. Good timing. Can we meet for noon?
her: Or you can come by the house up to you

me: I'd come by but I might get bored while ur shopping. So, we can meet when ur done shopping, then!

her: I Can shop afterwards. I'll have it meet for a quick coffee. And get her back to bed. Let's meet at 12 at [coffee shop]. That ok?

(This flustered me a bit, that my plan to avoid "shopping buddy" backfired by making it just a quick coffee... but I was fairly confident I could turn it around, which I did.)

me: What sort of shopping is it?

her: Just need a few things. Wil[sic] pick em up after. Np.
her: See u soon. Do you know where [coffee shop] is?

...

In fairness I may have over-reacted to the "shopping buddy" concern, because it's not like she was doing endless girlie shopping through a mall. (I assume this is what prompted your "platonic friend box" remark?) It was really just she had to pick up a few groceries for dinner. She was done in about 15 minutes.

* At home, did it occur to you that she was in a hurry to kick you out, was maybe because she knew her partner was coming back home soon?

Entirely did not occur to me, and that is a good observation and certainly possible.

However, from her positive reaction to the idea that next time I'll just chill in the basement when she's putting the infant down, it actually seems more likely to me that the kicking me out bit was very much just her running in auto-pilot, realizing she's got to do this song and dance and someone else in the room is going to distract the child. Based on the totality of her behaviour, body language, and response to my later suggestion, it seems to me that she didn't want me gone but simply assumed that she needed me gone. An utter lack of creativity on the part of both of us. Plus as you aptly observed in your prior post, she probably doesn't even know what she wants.

Still, it would have served me well to know when the partner got home. In fact, I ideally should have known this before even committing to the date. But it's a tough thing to ask, because I don't want to raise alarm bells!

This is one of the reasons why I usually never let the girl chose the terms of the date: she has zero clue of what date is, or is not, conducive to seduction.

Very good point! (Well, many guys have no clue, either.)

I would only accept to meet her in my home, face to face, with three hours of free time together.

That does seem best! She herself has subtly hinted at this being the best option (which seems like a good sign).

So next step is, when she gets back from her trip, I will try to determine when she will have a weekend. I suspect this is predictable. I don't love to make plans that far ahead so I might just determine when it is and then tell her I will try to keep it open but will have to let her know for sure sooner to the day.

The last time I had her over I was unaware of a time constraint, and in my lack of experience didn't anticipate it. Next time I will make a point to be more efficient, which means (1) get her directly home instead of to a neutral spot first, and (2) don't even start to show her what she came to see, unless it's after a good roll in the hay. The first time a month ago, I started with the neutral spot because we had been virtual strangers; no need for that now.

I should also be direct with her that we need at least 3h together. I can do this without rousing suspicion, since the stuff she is supposedly coming to see is legitimately quite involved. I will make a point to get a commitment of duration before setting the date. (This was hard on the first meet because the pretense of that first meet was simply to reunite over lunch.)

There is also some chance of making it work at her home but it's more risky. It could work by either (i) coming in the evening on one of the occasions her partner is out of town, which she has told me happens from time to time, or (ii) coming in the daytime with the understanding that I'll chill in the basement when she puts the infant down, which she has agreed. Neither of these is ideal since (i) depends on some unknown future event and one I can't very well ask about, and (ii) assumes that the ideal 1h to 3h nap is not interrupted, and that I can overcome any other distractions in her home and have her in a comfortable spot out of the infant's way.

Although (ii) carries the most risks, it also has an advantage in that it is the easiest to schedule up. It is tricky finding the balance between how long to wait for the perfect situation before the imperfect situation becomes a better chance on account of not letting the feelings die out!

I somehow have the feeling that if I have this girl alone long enough, she won't be that difficult... (perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd hate to be right and not try!)... but it really hinges on getting her alone!

Hope to have a happy update!

Phoenix