Marriage and PickUp

[HellAtlantic]

I didn't want to derail another thread as the OP can use all the focus and attention and advice he can get. Started this thread as a result from Ray Zorse's curiosity about my situation. Here is his quote:

You know what HA. I think you are clearly very interested inlivkup and should be approaching and closing the deal. I am certain you would be very good at it. I suppose I'm curious about your marriage and your interest in PU, not that the two are incompatible, but to avoid hijacking I won't ask for details here, just ask if you considered either, putting your marriage on hold if it's not meeting your needs, or, flat-out cheating? Actually, I am cheating ATM, at least emotionally, so don't think I am judgemental, I do not think it is a good thing but in my case there are some tricky issues I'm still considering (have written about some of them in r/ships).

1. I am married. This yr will be my 13th yr.
2. I have 2 kids.
3. I have considered cheating, at least once a week. I don't wake up in the morning and say "today is the day I'm gonna cheat". I'm not a scumbag. Rather it's more of a "I might be put in a position tonite to cheat on my wife, I wonder how I'll handle the situation if all the planets align and the opportunity presents itself" type of thinking. And openness to explore, if you will.
4. We bicker like everyone else does. The intimacy has withered considerably. She doesn't lust for my touch anymore and I've grown weary of trying to get her to want to be touched by me. Of course I have my faults as well but her low libido is a dagger.
5. I'm 37 and I feel, rightly or wrongly, that there is a window we all have where we're viewed as "sexually viable" as I call it, where the opposite sex looks at us and says "I'd fuck him", and then once that window closes when the opposite sex looks at us they would then say "he's obviously someone's father" or "he's an old man". So I suppose while I still have my looks and body I guess I don't want to go through the rest of my life having passed up all these opportunities. Especially since who knows how long a relationship lasts for - i don't want to be 55 yrs old and eventually divorced and think "fuck I'm an old man now and all those yrs when I was in my 30s looking great I squandered!"
6. I do feel if things keep going this way ill have to have "the talk". Having kids makes you pause, I don't want my dissatisfaction to negatively impact 2 human's lives. But...we don't live forever so might as well try to be happy for as many yes of our crummy short lives as we can, no?
7. I love and crave female attention. I used to roll with a big after work crowd with coworkers but that has dwindled so I've been doing solo game for a month )not sure if what I do is considered game since I don't know what my endgame is. Not sure if what I do is just connect with females or if something else is in mind. I don't ask myself these questions because I don't want the answers. Everything I do as far as "game" goes has to be in the moment and not preplanned. If I were to do something outside my marriage it'd have to be because of the vibe and the girl was being realllllly into me.

So there you have it. Hope that answers everything Ray. No one is perfect, we're all just trying to be the best versions of ourself as we can.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

HA

You need to have a frank honest discussion with your wife that your marriage is in trouble. You need to hear what her issues are with you and you have to tell her yours with her. You both have to put your egos aside. I suggest you let her tell you her issues first. This will take a big effort on your part not to get pissed. Then you let her know yours. Obviously one is the lack of intimacy and sex. I bet she also have lost physical attractiveness to you. You need to tell her why whether it be her weight or dress or attitude. If you don't do this your marriage will die a very painful slow death. If you do this you have a chance to save it. It could still die but at least you tried. This will not be easy. The problems developed over the last 13 years and will take time to resolve.

 

[ray_zorse]

I see. I think it basically boils down to the sexual issue. My wife wouldn't make love to me for >1yr after our middle son was born, so I know how frustrating this can be. If you are still sexually attracted to her, and she isn't "putting out", so to speak, there could be several reasons (a) her being controlling and rationing sex as a manipulative device, in that case divorce her (b) her testing you and trying to get the upper hand in the r/ship, in that case persist through it (c) her having lost attraction to you because you haven't behaved as a dominant male, in that case it may be recoverable through GC principles and a lot of hard work, depending on how bad it is and how your r/ship is in other areas, but frankly it is uphill, once a frame is set it is nearly impossible to change in any reasonable time. You have to decide if it's a, b or c (or something else), she won't be able to tell you b/c she does not know at a conscious level.

Separated is not so bad, especially if you have a strong parenting partnership and good communication. My only advice to you would be DO NOT move out of the house or otherwise give up shared assets until the divorce and settlement is finalized and a parenting plan is in place, and DO NOT agree to any interim arrangement of any sort unless it's an arrangement you would be happy to see continue indefinitely, because the initial parenting plan or division of assets will basically be the final one, the courts will never disrupt the kids lives by changing ANYTHING later on. So do "separation under one roof" while holding out for a fair and equitable arrangement, that way you can still see your kids and use your assets in the meantime. NEVER raise your voice and NEVER do anything she hasn't agreed to in advance and NEVER get physical (obviously) or she'll have you removed. Any issues don't respond to her, just log them.

If you're no longer attracted to her then do the above immediately. If you ARE then set a timetable for how long you are willing to spend on discussions, counselling etc and make it clear to her what you will and won't accept. For example, "my sexual needs are not being met, if this is because of a misunderstanding or miscommunication or something I have done or not done, or if there are deeper issues we need to work through, then I would like to address that, if nothing has changed in 3 months from now then I will have to consider separation". This lets her know what will be the outcome if she shit tests, delays, lies to a counsellor, says one thing and does another, persists in illogical or delusional behaviour, is in denial or apportioning blame, etc. There's a clear bottom line: If your needs are not being met at XXX time you will seek alternatives.

Even if she's for real she'll still be angry at being placed on the spot like this and not being in a position of power or able to delay/manipulate, so expect a lot of blowback (her calling you a rapist and saying you have no right to her body and you belong in the 1950s and you're as ugly as fuck and what makes you think she'd ever be attracted to you etc), just stay calm, ignore, shrug it off and say sure, but the bottom line is XXX, and stick to it. Only by simplifying the issues like this and by being willing to walk away will you ever get the dynamic back in your favour. Well, I did something like above and ended up getting free. Of course, she stubbornly waited until my deadline expired and I was packing to leave and then turned on all the waterworks and started saying she loved me blah blah... I dismissed this as not for real, and left, although had I been a bit smarter I wouldn't have moved out except into another bedroom, as described above.

Ray

PS Pickup won't work if you try to be opportunistic about it, yoy have to decide to cheat or not cheat and make that happen, if you just leave it to the girl to indicate interest you look weak and indecisive and nothing will happen.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

HA

Ray is much more the expert on this than me. He has given you much more detail. I would add that you should not be involved with other women during the process. If you divorce they can use that against you. There are lawyers who specializes in divorce for men. This one is across the US. http://cordellcordell.com/ They have advise on their website. There is also Mensdivorce.com. Divorce is the final option. Ray is right about staying at home. Don't move out until the divorce is finalized.

 

[HellAtlantic]

Youch, I don't like using the D word. Let's keep it light fellas. No one is looking to get divorced. I might have to have a talk with her at some point but I'm more or less happily married. That having been said a guy has to live a little. And no one is perfect. This Thursday I'm going out for drinks with a coworker we'll call N who I share massive sexual tension with. We normally go out with another friend or other coworkers and wind up together alone at nite at the bar but I'm normally too drunk or high to game or stick to fundamentals or maintain frame so I normally walk her to her car when the bar closes and I go my separate way. This Thursday is as close to a date as we'll ever have. It's not set in stone but there's this other coworker we'll call L (who is pretty but I'm not attracted to her like I am to N) who wants to go out for drinks this Friday nite. I told this to N as a way to ignite some competition and jealousy (as jealous as one can get when they're dealing with a married guy). The exchange went like this around 1am:

Me: before I commit to anyone else are you still down to hang Thursday nite?
N: let me know if something is going on Thursday nite, don't change your Friday plans for me. I want to go out every nite this week (she's on vacation all of the week)
Me: other plans are tentative, might happen might not. If you're free Thursday nite I'd do that. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (I said that to insinuate I'd rather make plans with a more definite date than hold out for tentative plans that might not happen, but I also wanted to throw in some sexual wordplay in there *ie, hand in bush*)
Me: I'll ask if anyone else wants to go (meaning ask other coworkers about Thursday nite) but if I can't get any takers it might just be me and you. Let me know if you're ok with that cuz I don't want anyone feeling awkward around me. I just wanna have some fun. (Was quoting a lyric there from a song she really likes called "You know you like it" but yeah I also do wanna have some fun in life).

She hasn't replied to that last comment yet. I think cuz she knows if she says "I won't feel awkward around you if its just the two of us" she knows it's on. In the past we've always has lots of eyes on us and I've been careful to guard her reputation (for being the office whore who hooked up with a married guy) and my reputation (for being the married guy who hooked up with someone outside my marriage). I also brought up the "I don't want anyone to feel awkward around me" part cuz last time we hung out she told me "the last time we hung out we were outside on the bench and you didn't have your wedding ring on and we were alone and it felt awkward talking to a married man who wasn't wearing his ring." I played it very cool but internally I was hurt as I took it to mean she was trying to say "I'm not cool with doing something with a married guy". But our sexual tension is thru the roof so it was probably a way to save face. Another time we were alone outside (man this happens a lot between us) we were talking about us hooking up and she said it couldn't happen because she has to protect herself. Her words. I don't quite understand what that meant and I was a little too buzzed and high to call her out on it. But I think she means she can't risk hooking up with me as she would catch feelings and it wouldn't be fair to her.

Anyway I didn't really start this thread to talk about divorce. I get it, I'm not doing things the right way, but I'm so tired of doing everything by the book. It's boring always trying to be perfect. Nothing might happen this Thursday - she may decide it's not best to go out for drinks with a married man especially since I've texted her I'm expecting to have fun. i think she might have some indication that a nite of friendly banter isn't my idea of fun. I don't need to bang her to have fun but between friendly banter and banging there's a lot of wiggle room. This upcoming week should be interesting.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

I've been down this road and it damn near killed me. I worked with a very fine young women who fell for me. She did everything a women interested in a man does and more. She actually asked me out twice on a date. She knew I was married with two kids. She did not care. She would pump me up during the day at work with heavy flirting and come ons. I would leave work as high as a kite only to crash by the time I got home. The thought of cheating on my wife tore me up. I totally understand the high that comes from having a babe want you. It builds up you ego massively. You fell euphoric. Being between the her and home was hell. This lasted for about 5 years. I literally came apart at the seams. I ended up in therapy. Our need to have the sexual approval of a beautiful woman is a damn powerful thing. It is driven by our genetic need to reproduce. I understand where you are at. I won't tell you what to do but I will tell you it is a dangerous game. You will need to continue until you bed her. You can tell yourself you will stop at some predetermined point but the truth is your genetics pushes you to have sex. You will not be satisfied with anything less. Do some soul searching and risk reward evaluation. I wish we could have both worlds but they don't coexist peacefully together. What is the most important thing to you?

 

[ray_zorse]

Hell mate, frame control is very important, problem is if you send a text like "it would be cool to hangout if it's not awkward to hangout one-on-one with a married dude" then if it wasn't a problem before it certainly will be now -- the issue you're having is you feel uncomfortable and guilty about shit, and that infects her. As you get more comfortable with PU that kind of stuff is less of an issue because through exposure you've made yourself much more comfortable with stuff that would've been out of your comfort zone before, including things like meeting people one-on-one where it might not be appropriate... until then, "fake it till you make it".

Remember women are water, she totally takes her cues on what's acceptable and not acceptable from you, to a far larger extent than men do. I suppose this might have evolved as an unconscious reputation-protecting device... anyway most likely she would've been totally cool with it, especially if she wanted to bang, but even if she didn't... it's not a problem for her if it's not a problem for you.

Also when you said you wanted to have fun, my reading was "platonic fun", although you explained later in your post that that wasn't your meaning, I suppose text is very ambiguous and best avoided for conversations of any depth anyway. If she read the text like I read it, which is to say "I want to spend platonic time with you as a friend and I'm worried you might reject that because you might think I'm looking for something more", then she'll resist you when you escalate.

Uhh, if she already said there's a comfort issue then I would say you are sunk, remember women are very intuitive, very crafty, it's all in the subtext and saying something like "it would be awkward to hang out with a married man" is girl talk for "I totally know you're gonna jump my bones and I'm politely telling you it's not on"... she would never say something like this if she wanted you to move forward, because (unlike a lot of guys who just say whatever comes in their head) she would be keenly aware of the subtext... unless, it was a shit test, in which case it depends how you handled it I suppose. She'd say something like that to test whether you can laugh it off and hold your frame (of "I'm a sexy guy and women love to hangout with me no matter what their situation").

Another thing to keep in mind is Chase's advice that you may well think an interaction went one way and she might have a totally different perception, I get that there's a flirty, sexual undertone but she may just be attention whoring, also their emotions change fast, so the last interaction you had could have changed matters materially as well. I also get that you're not pushing hard on this one because you're not even sure if you want a mistress or casual sex right now... but I can only restate that doing things half heartedly basically means the worst of both worlds, getting all the guilt without the sex!

Okay my read may be wrong, so telling you to forget this girl may be premature, but at least PREPARE to forget this girl and go do some cold approach, work on your abundance and practice your pickup tech, particularly the frame control!!

Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

Ah yeah just reread the bit about the wedding ring, keep your wedding ring ON, it's preselection and boyfriend disqualification, perfect for fast hookups. Also she shit tested you about the fact you took it off, testing your frame to see if you'd just laugh it off "ohh yeah dang it's not a good idea to be working with chemicals when there are horny women around"... generally the ring will leave an indentation which women can see (women see everything), and what happens is it hurts your frame in exactly the same way described above, makes it appear you're ashamed of being on the lookout for a fast hookup... and look, your situation is your situation... whilst I think you might have better peace of mind were you to take some definite decisions (so would I for that matter), there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a mistress or mistresses on the side, particularly if your wife never finds out. After all women do it all the time, they have a lover and a provider... easy peasy, all needs met. We just don't hear about it cos they're very discreet. So your goal is to project this as your frame... I mean for all anyone else knows you might have open marriage etc... or you're staying together as a financial arrangement... or for the kids... or she might be a vegetable... nobody knows, but they do know that if you're concerned about it, they probably should be as well!
Ray