You see this highlights a fundamental misunderstanding about mode one.
This isn't about mode 1... it's about creating the life that you or I or others want with women or a woman or whatever.
Mode 1 is a vehicle to get there, just like Mystery Method or whatever BadBoy is doing these days or the RSD guys or Chase's stuff or a hundred other teaches that get us there.
Mode 1 is only relevant and valuable if it's getting me to whatever outcome I want. If it doesn't get me there, it's not relevant to me. If it does get me there, the question is whether it gets me there in a better way than the other methods... or whether it can be combined with the other methods to get me there.
I don't care about mode 1 or ARC or Mystery or David X or any other Guru outside of their ability to get me to where I'm going.
You're coming from an "ends justifies the means" perspective here. I know the argument ARC would make at this point. He'd tell you, all right why don't you compare to wining and dining percentages or date raping percentages if it's all about the number of lays.
Yeah, that's a straw man argument. You push what I'm saying out to an extreme until it makes it a repulsive thing to just about anyone.
I could do the same with mode 1... "Why don't you just walk up and pull your dick out and slap it against her leg?"
I wouldn't ask that because it's a bad argument.
And so is the "ends justifies the means" argument, not just because I'm against daterape but because the assumption with that argument is that one of us is doing something fucked up.
We all know that's the position of ARC... that if you don't immediately start sex talking a girl that you're weak, a beta male, who is hiding your intentions and that's manipulation (at least I believe that's what I heard him say from that tape, correct me if I'm wrong).
This community is a seduction community. It's about seducing women... that's what we're talking about.
If you want to talk ethics, we can... but that's a completely different thing. Everything that all of us are doing, including ARC is questionably ethical depending on who you talk to... I know Christians who think all of this stuff is fucked up... but again, we're just assuming that we're all healthy, reasonable people who want to leave women better than we found them, if possible.
Being ultra direct doesn't cut out influence, persuasion, and manipulation. If I get a girl so excited by dirty talking to her the first minute, take her home and sleep with her, there's a high probability chance that she could still look back on it and think "wtf was I thinking? why did I go with that guy? what's wrong with me?" because she's not using her values and judgment when you tell her you want to pull her hair, spread her pussy lips, and fuck the shit out of her... she's using her emotion to make a decision and her emotions are running high, which could easily lead to buyer's remorse, at best.
I don't know for sure this is the case but I'd be very surprised if it didn't come up pretty often. How often do these sexual encounters turn into relationships? Does he become friends with any of these women afterwards or is it just sex and leaving, most of the time? How often do guys use what he's talking about to get married to women? Is it just about casual sex?
Being that I'm new to his ideas, I have lots of questions about it, which would determine to me a lot more about the validity of the ethics and how women feel about themselves and whether it actually leaves them better than it found them... but you could (and probably should) ask many of these questions about any methodology and any person who is doing seduction (assuming you care about ethics and whatever).
You could potentially get more lays by slipping a roofie in a girl's drink. I know that's an extreme extension but the point is you're missing the ethical argument. Mode one, or any approach which leaves no doubt in the girl's mind what you want from her from the start, has a number of advantages beyond simply upping your lay count including:
1) It never leaves the girl in a worse place that when you found her (if you care about that)
I mean, I see where you're coming from but of course it could leave her in a worse place... giving her an STD, buyer's remorse (afterwards regretting that she agreed to it and regretting doing it), questioning who she is and why should would do such a thing), and a bunch of other things that you may or may not have any control over could leave her in a worse place than when you found her.
There's nothing in the world that NEVER can leave a girl in a worse place.
2) It prevents drama later down the road (assuming you don't revert to a more beta frame)
What kind of drama do you mean?
I'm sure it could create drama in a social circle if it goes badly or something.
3) It allows you to quickly and effectively weed out cock teasers, gold diggers and other girls who want to waste your time or money
That's true. Assuming it's a problem you have or a problem you don't know how to get around.
I think with m1, what we're talking about here is creating certainty around the subject... "there's no question because we're going to bang and there's no way for her to use me!"
4) It prevents delayed, anger-inducing rejection
That's true too, again, assuming that's something you get and have.
I know I've experienced it before. I could definitely see how relieving it would be to guys if they no longer had to experience that after experiencing it a bunch of times.
5) you get that alpha male/lover respect from a girl
Yeah, that's true too. Many forms of direct CAN have this happen as well. And you can also get that from indirect as well. Actually, a lot of these CAN come from indirect if you know what you're doing.
If you don't, this is definitely a way to shortcut the learning curve and sit in a better position if these were problems you have without needing to learn as much.
6) you can pretty much be honest about who you are, what you want, whether you're seeing other girls, etc etc ... it doesn't matter because you're not setting the "I want a relationship" frame
Again, you can do this with indirect as well. Maybe it's just more implied with m1? Idk since I've never used it.
And most men (according to studies done on it, somewhere around 80-90%) ultimately want a real relationship... maybe not the girl he's dirty talking his opener to but with the "right" woman.
Basically, what I'm saying is that not all lays are equal.
However, if you're curious about its effectiveness purely in terms of numbers compared to indirect game, even ARC says his students have mixed reports.
Does he have a community like this or is it all just in his YT comment section?
I'd like to see what guys have put together and are doing there, if they do this sort of a thing.
Some of them have more success since they switched to direct, others have less success.
If you aren't having much success at all, I could see this being a shortcut to being successful.
That was the value of Badboy's stuff back in the day. I remember when I first started going up to girls and telling them that I thought they were beautiful and that I needed to come over and talk. I didn't do much daygame back then, I did this in clubs. I think the first time I did that in a club, I got laid from it.
The girl opened and just said, "Oh, thank you. That was a good pickup line." and smiled. She was actually a girl from the UK that I met in a bar in Scottsdale and probably about an hour and a half in, she asked me if we could watch a movie together at her place.
It felt really good to own my desires and not feel like I needed to hide it and have a girl just acknowledge and even validate it... but most of those feelings came from my own upbringing and sexual shame that I had, which direct really helped me to overcome, back in those days.
Indirect definitely didn't help me overcome those as well... which I'm sure that M1 does.
The one thing they all report apparently is that they can handle rejection better than before (since rejection happens quickly) and they save time and money. From personal experience, I can't say if it's better in terms of percentages. Comparing to an equally well executed indirect approach, I'd say probably about the same, maybe even a little less effective. But all that is anecdotal and as I wrote above, that's not really the point of the approach anyway.
Well, let's be real here man... there's an outcome that you're trying to reach, which is sex. M1 teaches a bunch of stuff about it being more ethical to say that you're going to slam your cock in her pussy as an opening line instead of waiting to say it.
To YOU, it's anecdotal whether you're more likely to get laid or not with it because it's about the M1 philosophy and ethics, not just getting laid.
My guess is that this is one of the big reasons that people say it's a cult... because you care more about Mode 1 (and the principles behind it) than you do about anything else. And you're so bought into mode 1 that you talk about it like it's this higher, noble methodology than the other methodologies about sticking a piece of sausage between two pieces of meatloaf and sliding them back and forth... ramming your hard thing into her soft thing over and over again.
We're talking about fucking here, people!
And whether dirty talking a girl upfront is more ethically sound than building comfort with her first. Sounds like a kind of ridiculous argument when I put it that way.
He says that bars and clubs in the United States are full of cockteasers and time wasters.
It's also full of women who bang dudes. If I hadn't filled my mid-20's with casual sex with girls from bars and clubs, I may feel a little differently about it... I mean, yeah... there are lots of girls who will waste your time, if you let them, just about anywhere, as far as I know.
That's where abundance comes in.
Plus he relies on his voice, he does his dirty talk in a half whisper tone and it's harder to pull that off in a loud club. Though he says he's been told clubs are different overseas so he doesn't discourage it 100%.
He should encourage guys going to bars, for sure... especially lounge bars. Loud clubs, probably not.
Yeah, he favours daytime approaches in book stores, libraries, restaurants, cafes, etc .. even online (he tries to get them on the phone first).
I like that.
He rarely does street approaches where he'll run after a girl or block her path or something (LDM/Torero/Yad style). He thinks that's lame as fuck.
Well, unless you're in m1, you probably don't care what he thinks about what you're doing.
I care about what works and what doesn't.
To me, honestly, anyone that's truly helping guys out and giving them hope and getting them into action and helping them feel strong, more confident, and like they have more of a chance with women is doing a service to humanity, at least in some regards.
I can't blame a guy for creating a cult-like environment, that's just good business. Lots of people do that and have created large amounts of positive change in the world.
There's not much in his books about specific strategies for each of those situations, which I said above is probably the only criticism I have of his material.
If he has a community, there should be a lot of this in there. If he doesn't, which is crazy if it's true, I guess it's very possible that doesn't exist.
Basically, yeah. I know you're an old-schooler, but perhaps you may not be aware that homeboy here was posting on PUA forums all the way back in 2006 and even had his own subforum that he moderated; hence, using the community to upsell his materials and distancing himself from it at any chance he gets.
Yeah, that's smart marketing. Whoever was running that forum should have shut him down, not because he wasn't adding value but because he was creating division among the ranks and pulling people away.
It's good marketing though and helps create strong, raving fans.
I have his entire posts archive (which I doubt he even sells anymore). Reminds me of when Manson started doing the same sh*t when using the term "performance game" or some other nonsense after he got what he wanted from the community and wanted to commercialize and started taking jabs at the community.
Check
here,
here,
here and
here.
Thanks for posting that.
Good catch, let's hear it from the horse's mouth directly:
"
I learned in sales a while back that "persuasion" is when you do a good job of convincing someone that they will benefit from buying whatever it is you're offering, so to speak...."
Yeah, he's good at selling, persuading, and marketing. He probably did it almost his whole life and he brought into this industry and creating his own division/cult following out of it, which is smart.
If you're in business, it's a solid way to build and grow and make sure you don't disappear from competition offering a similar, lower priced product.
This is really interesting because this description fits almost perfectly with a friend of mine.
He too has unbelievably good game, before seen him infield I had no idea it was possible to do what he do. I also think he is better than any famous PUA coach. "Unreal" would also be the word I would use to describe his skills.
And he seems to have the seem kind of behaviors as your friend:
- building self esteem of others
- building himself up with wild/sexual stories
When he approaches he often gives compliment to others, but this comes from a place of very high value.
For example I have seen him open a set of 6 (3 couples) that where leaving a restaurant to ask for a cool bar to go. And he owned the sets and the conversation. At some point he told to the woman who were talking with him the most: "your pants suit you very well". All the set was listening and her boyfriend was starting to feel uncomfortable, but the way he did things was so calibrated that it was difficult for her boyfriend to say something. The woman enjoyed that, but she had to manage her boyfriend who was more and more uncomfortable by telling him "he is just being nice".
My friend wrapped things up with: "you too, mister, have nice pants".
He use many other things than compliments to make other feels good. As he is perceived as high value he is able to provide value to others.
Cool man, sounds like a good friend to model behaviors from. Assume high value and lift others up from that position... it works!
